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GH_Klingstroem
03-05-2007, 02:37 AM
Ok guys I have seen many posts about the p51 in game. I must say that personally I find it to be one of the safest and nicest plane to fly! NOTHING ingame will keep E as a P51, not even a Dora9 but it comes very very close!!

First, make sure to notice what ur manifold pressure does! In the P51 D-model for example you can see that ur manifold with boost(WEP) enabled will decrease from sealevel from 72 to 62 and when it reaches 62MAP (at around 3300m) disable it! No point to enable WEP if it wont give u extra power! and it wont till you reach 5500-5600m. Between these altitudes it will produce lots of heat but no extra power!

So stay below 3000m or above 5500 if you want to use WEP for extra power!

Lots of people comlain about overheating problems. Believe me, there are NONE!!
Once you go level after a climb, leave rads fully open for say 30 secs and at the same time come back on proppitch to 80% for level flight. Then close rads fully and never open them again and stay at 100% power and she WILL NOT overheat!You can even engage WEP and she wont overheat if prop pitch is low! Try to keep it around 2600-2700 RPM (green arc) and she will be fine and FAST as hell!!!
Now, fly with these settings and notice what tremendous speed advantge u get! In dives, come back on proppitch and only in full vertical climb let the proppitch come up to 100%.
If she overheats, come back on proppitch and open rads to maybe 2-4 and then close it again!

TRIM!! I cannot say this enough, a well trimmed P51 is very very fast and very very stable!! When speed increase, the ball will go left and the ball is pointing towards the rudder that must be pressed. So ball left - more left rudder trim! Keep the ball centered!

Elevator trim, VERY VERY important for all AC in game! make sure the she is trimmed for te speed you fly at, simple let go of the controls as see what she does on the vertical speed indicator! You can lose 20-50 km/h or more if she is untrimmed and constantly have to push the nose down/up with your stick!

Dogfight, well, dont dogfight unless you see the fuelage behind ur left shoulder below, 50-60 USGAL. When it is, you can outturn most Fw190 and most 109s(but still with the 109s ,dont get too slow with them) and if you decide to gor for TnB, trim the nose up to make tighter turns easierand set 100% prop pitch ( she will eventyualy overheat with these settings tho)! Combat flaps will help very much in the P51! If it doesnt go the way u want it to, point the nose down, come back on prop pitch and give full power and you can leave all but the Dora 9 behind easely. make sure to trim her to every increase in km/h of speed! And watch that speed drop VERY VERY slowly because if she is well trimmed and rads closed she will NOT drop speed fast!! She will keep E 4-ever!
Personally I try NOT to dogfight unless my fuel behind me is below half the gauge indication.
NEVER take more than 50% fuel in the P51! Sometimes, take 25% with droptanks and when u release them, u can fly for 30 mins and u will be very manouverable!!
Belive me if you do all this, you will see how fast she is!! German AC dont have rudder trim and still most people dont even look at the ball so they will lose speed much faster than you when the try to follow you at high speed. (exeption is Dora 9 that can follow u)

Convergence- Ok this is very personal, I have been experimenting with this for along time offline and set up alot of friendly targets and fired at them at the distance I thought came closets to the distances I fire at targets Online. I was suprised to see that most of the time, my targets are inside the 150m arc so I fly with a convergence setting of 120-140m and it does wonders for me now! Especially when sneaking up on someones six from below. Fire when the 190 and 109s wingtips are just on the yellow circle or even outside them and most of ur rounds will hit your target and cripple them!

The best hit % I have had was 57% with these settings, no need to say the target lost both wings and went on fire. and that was 190D9.

Fw190s perform rather bad at 3000m where their first supercharger stage is pretty low on power and the second stage hasent engaged yet so they will be rather low on power, but u still have plenty!

But most important of all these tips are, the TRIM and the CLOSE RADS fully and come back on proppitch!

Try it out and you will notice a whole different plane! Pls report back here! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
cheers!

EDIT
Here are som nice p51 Tutorials with lots of online stuff as well...
http://352ndfg.com/smf/index.php?topic=1214.0

joeap
03-05-2007, 04:01 AM
Thanks for the tips!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

mynameisroland
03-05-2007, 04:24 AM
Great tips, Can I ask specifically what PPitch and Throttle settings you would use when running away from a D9 ?

I would like to add that the P51 generally will not overheat in level flight with boost on 95% throttle and 100% radiators closed. If you are trimmed properly you are very very fast, if you do overheat just notch radiators to 2 and she will cool down. Most important thing for speed in the P51 imo is take the radiators off auto and manage them yourself. The 30km/h speed loss they can induce is critical when flying a plane that relies on speed.

F16_Neo
03-05-2007, 04:40 AM
Great tips, I'll see tonight if they improve my poor stang skills! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Capt.LoneRanger
03-05-2007, 04:50 AM
Wow, thanks a lot. After the P40 was removed from almost every map in WC, I'm still trying to find my ride. The P51 rocks, but I think with these hints, I got a step closer to master this plane.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

WWMaxGunz
03-05-2007, 05:06 AM
Beautiful post Klingstroem!

May I say that what 'pitch' to reduce to (really RPM), the efficiency depends on TAS and
perhaps load on the plane, dive is less load than level is less than climb even though
all at the same speed?
I find especially at power 100% and less that backing pitch off in 5% increments (I use
keys often) as speed increases from 360 kph level gets me final speed for the power I
use to be higher than pitch 100% just from trying and seeing results.

GH_Klingstroem
03-05-2007, 05:20 AM
Cool! Great to see the post was appreciated!
Well the enemy I hate the most are the 190s! Especially the Dora 9! They are usually flown by the better sort of pilots (most 190s are) but vs the Dora 9 u need all the power u can get!
I personally have come to the conclusion that I WILL NOT dogfight the D9 since my planes doesnt have any upper hand vs him. Its so equal that the first one to make a mistake will lose. If im low on fuel however (below half rear tank indication) I fell pretty confident vs most planes including D9s. I have several times been bounced by D9s and if im low on fuel I make a hard turn without stalling and get him slow since most of them think u are easy target they will dogfight u, this is when u slow down let him pass you (I would NEVER otherwise slown down in a p51 but if noone else is around its safe but ONLY when u below 50 US GALs or around). This way I have many times reversed position and he is infront of me low on E and u have the upper hand since u are more manouverable when low on fuel! Thye usually dive away when they have lost their upper hand. I wouldnt follow personally...
But he might be low on fuel as well so he can be very light as well. U never know! When u need to run away I just give full WEP vertically down make sure to trim on the way down as speed comes up and off you go! Most guys flying blue, dont use rudder trim so u will be bale to pull away, but its gonna be close and u will overheat but u can overheat for 5 mins or so!! Vs 109s its never a problem to run when u need to.
When u are in close in dogfighting go 100% proppitch as u are usaully very slow and u need 100%PP when slow.

The P51B and C are with 50% fuel what the P51D is on 25% fuel. Very manouverable and can deffinately hold its own and is evern faster than the D model but I feel the controls are too senstive and I find her a harder ride to be stable in.

Brain32
03-05-2007, 05:21 AM
Great tips, Can I ask specifically what PPitch and Throttle settings you would use when running away from a D9 ?
103+wep, rads closed, 5m/s dive(you have some alt I hope) and you are history, Dora can't catch you...

GH_Klingstroem
03-05-2007, 05:29 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Beautiful post Klingstroem!

May I say that what 'pitch' to reduce to (really RPM), the efficiency depends on TAS and
perhaps load on the plane, dive is less load than level is less than climb even though
all at the same speed?
I find especially at power 100% and less that backing pitch off in 5% increments (I use
keys often) as speed increases from 360 kph level gets me final speed for the power I
use to be higher than pitch 100% just from trying and seeing results.

well, the green arc on the RPM indicator goes to 2700, anywahere above that and she is in an uncomfortable situation BUT in game she will not overheat if you are slighty above this area. In steep climbs I will go 100PP and maybe open rads to 2-4. But as soon as I am level I will close rads and go 80%PP and in steep dives I might come back to 60-70%PP. Just remember, every change of power setting and PP will need a bit of retrimming!
She is a VERY trim senstive plane but so was the real AC.
Also at lower PP settings its gonna sound like u are on very low power. Thats not the case its just the sound engine in the game! Trust me u still have loads of power, check MP gauge to see what u are getting at that altitude and also check if engaging WEP helps u at all at that alt. Otherwise, climb higher so u get anything out of it!

First stage of supercharger helps u up to ca 3200m.
The second stage helps u form ca 5600m and above to about 6500m

So between 3200 and 5600m U have NO use of WEP!!
and not above 6500!! (bascially, dont stay at 5500m, u have no power there but climb another 100m and u will get full Sealevel power)!!)
this depends a bit on map! on some maps these alts will be slightly higer or slightly lower!

bazzaah2
03-05-2007, 05:37 AM
good tips and thansk for taking the time to post 'em!

Bearcat99
03-05-2007, 06:01 AM
Good post and I stand by everything you said.... and I fly Mustangs almost exclusively. All I would add is that when cruising a little 9very little) downward trim will actually squeeze a bit more speed out of the plane.

Blutarski2004
03-05-2007, 07:23 AM
Klingstroem,

Best post I've seen on this forum in the past 500 years.

S!

WWMaxGunz
03-05-2007, 07:34 AM
How I tell PP for level speed (I go by IAS to simplify) is get steady speed and trim level
for whatever power and then change the PP down 5%. If the nose comes up a bit then I trim
nose down until speed levels off the try 5% lower PP, repeat until I don't have to trim
down or even have to trim nose up one click. I read you well, this is only my technique.

Do my ears play tricks? I don't seem to hear a persistent whining sound in this thread!

MrMojok
03-05-2007, 08:01 AM
I'm going to make a printout, a sort of cheat sheet with of all these rules. I had sort of come to these types of conclusions myself on some of these points, but my numbers were slightly off. Other points have never even occurred to me.

Thanks Klingstroem!!

AVGWarhawk
03-05-2007, 08:05 AM
Nice tips!!!

Are we sure no one needs a graph, track, chart or any other hard evidence these work?

CMHQ_Rikimaru
03-05-2007, 08:29 AM
U missed FW190A alt where it has the lowest power. Its between 2000-3000m, so i would fight between 1500-2500m, or 5500+, depends on model, but after 3000 every model will change the supercharger, and gain its full power until 5500m. Also at least in FW190 elevator trim ISNT affecting max speed, and i dont think that in P51 it does!

BM357_Sniper
03-05-2007, 08:31 AM
Great tips and finally a thread with NO flaming. Thanks for the info. Just my two cents, even though the MP and RPM gauges are pretty much eye candy, including the coolent gauge, hopefully we'll see gauges with real info in BoB. Maybe even planes that use real MP and RPM settings for cruise, climb and performance.

Thanks again!

DKoor
03-05-2007, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Great tips, Can I ask specifically what PPitch and Throttle settings you would use when running away from a D9 ?
103+wep, rads closed, 5m/s dive(you have some alt I hope) and you are history, Dora can't catch you... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes that's the general idea http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Thing is that D9 will usually prevail in all fair 1 v 1 fights (P-51D), so this is extremely good piece of info.

Also one should bear in mind that D9 has better acceleration, so P-51D flyer must be careful to have enough separation to be able to squeeze most out of Pony.

horseback
03-05-2007, 10:17 AM
Just a bit of clarification, please. I have had a terrible time getting my trim right in the Mustang since the 4.01 patch. Currently, I use buttons assigned to rudder and elevator trim, and I rarely if ever touch the ailerons' trim.

It seems as though I'm always overshooting on my trim adjustments, and fighting my tendency to either climb, dive, or skid. I've always felt that the Mustang's controls were modelled to be oversensitive at speed, and this seems to especially apply to the trim settings.

Now, am I missing something simple and basic, or do I just need to fly the Mustang exclusively for a few weeks to get a good 'feel' for it?

cheers

horseback

GH_Klingstroem
03-05-2007, 11:16 AM
well when it comes to the trim, the P51D is the most stable od the p51s, cuz she has the dorsal fin which the P51B and C dont and that makes her more stable along the longitudinal axis(axis from tail to nose). Even the slightest overtrim of nose down attitude will make the ball go RIGHT so make sure u dont have too much nosedown trim because she will be difficult to trim properly with th rudder as well!

Bacially, too much nose down trim and ball will go RIGHT and she will be unstable.
Too much nose up trim and u will have to fight it by pushing ur stick forward and the ball will once again go RIGHT!
Try it and u will se! There for I try to always keep the trim as neutral as possible!

oh and for you Horseback, in 4.08 the terrible wobble is gone makeing the P51 lots more stable than they were in previous patches! Onething I have noticed is that the recoil effect is lots lower! Before 4.08 when u jammed one MG for whatever reason, its was time to go home because when u fired the remaining guns the unbalanced recoil would make ur nose swing left or right, depending on the wing that had the jammed gun. Now that effect is almost gone! recoil is reduced and so is the wobble so get 4.08 if u dont have it!

Nice to see the post was appreciated!
cheers

badatit
03-05-2007, 04:50 PM
Cheers! Great post.
You guys may get a kick out of this.
http://www.filefactory.com/file/30b12a/

Clipper_51
03-05-2007, 08:28 PM
Why would you recommend 80% PP? Based on what I have read, WWI pilots pushed the prop lever and throttle to max for full power (61'' of MP and 3,000 rm). I never understood why people recommend lower pp settings for top speed. I guess I'm missing something.

On the P-51, pp lever controls rpm and throttle mp. 80% pp is lowering engine rpm's.

See here: appears these performance tests were run a 3,000 rpm, not 2,500-2,700.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/mustangtest.html

To be fair, I re-read your post and found you did not claim that 80% resulted in top power. Your point was more to overheat issues. That said, I run my P-51 at 90% pp and %85-89% mp with closed rads and never overheat. I'm probably generating a bit more speed that way too.

badatit
03-05-2007, 09:09 PM
P51D-20NA 100% Fuel
DECK (On Warclouds Server)
power/pitch..radiator setting..best speed
99/100..open..520kph
99/95...open..530kph
99/95..closed.550kph
95/95..closed.560kph
cycle wep on and off (keeping it on the edge of overheat)580kph
See .ntrk posted above (It was a sloppy run...ball not centered)

SithSpeeder
03-05-2007, 10:16 PM
Good thread guys. Actually, AWESOME thread guys.

Badatit--although your data from a qualitative standpoint is great, it may be more useful knowing quantitatively what map you did it on. I think the there is the "standard test map" (but I forgot what it was) that has the standard atmosphere modeled the best (I'm sure someone will jump in here). Then, we can possibly get someone to do the same thing with the D9 ('44 and '45) and get some good comparison numbers.

* _54th_Speeder *

JadehawkII
03-05-2007, 11:01 PM
If I recall, Oleg says to use the Crimea Map for all test.

And as with the others, Excellent Post! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

badatit
03-05-2007, 11:32 PM
Point taken.
Sorry, I dont know what map it is (atm).
It's not Crimea.

GH_Klingstroem
03-05-2007, 11:45 PM
High prop pitch might result in the highest power available but also remember that a prop spinning at high speed is acting like a braking disc.
The P51 has a reduction gear so the prop is not spinning at the same RPM as the engine but much slower, however when u want go fast, really fast, a high RPM is going to be like big braking chute!


Nice to see ur test badatit, that just shows that u can sqeeze more speed out of her! When I pull out from a dive in a p51 that is trimmed and set with rads closed etc etc I will stay above 700 km/h for ever and only then will I slowly slow down to around 620 km/h at sealevel. Very seldom does it go below 600 and thats even after 2-3 mins since I started going level!
This thing is fast and drops E very slowly when u set her up correctly! And from experience that is much more than enough to leave all 109s behind and most 190s with ease!
Next time try the Crimea map as someone pointed out and also try 50% fuel MAX because that is what u will have when flying online!

badatit also try diving slightly to say 650 km/h and then set her level at sealevel and trim her close rads and set proppitch at say 80 and see how long she stays above 600Kmh/h if she ever drops below it! Might take a loooong time!

Another tip I have for power is to use the keyboard for it. If using my throttle on my stick its hard to get one exact number, it usually varies between 100% +- 5%. However if I leave the throttle on the stick fully forward ot fully backward and press the 0 on keyboard (not the numpad ones) u will get EXACTLY 100% power and not 95. if u leave it there and have rads closed u will get max power and can usually use WEP for 2 mins without overheating!
So for me, always 100% power and rads closed! Not 95% power!

msalama
03-06-2007, 12:14 AM
a high RPM is going to be like big braking chute!

Yeah, but a combination of low RPM & high MAP will stress your engine and possibly even blow it up. Think of it as driving up a steep hill in high gear w/ your throttle floored... not a good idea http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Dunno whether this applies to IL-2, though.

GH_Klingstroem
03-06-2007, 01:22 AM
That is correct msalama but this is not modeled in Il-2!

Klemm.co
03-06-2007, 01:28 AM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
Another tip I have for power is to use the keyboard for it. If using my throttle on my stick its hard to get one exact number, it usually varies between 100% +- 5%. However if I leave the throttle on the stick fully forward ot fully backward and press the 0 on keyboard (not the numpad ones) u will get EXACTLY 100% power and not 95. if u leave it there and have rads closed u will get max power and can usually use WEP for 2 mins without overheating!
So for me, always 100% power and rads closed! Not 95% power!
Dunno what your'e talking about. The throttle of my now aging X-52 is precise enough to select every single percent on the 110% range. Though it sometimes jumps 2 percents instead of one i just have to move it a little forth and back to get the desired percent. If you have such problems selecting the power output with your throttle, buy a better throttle. I found the one of the X-52 to be perfectly good for playing IL-2 and various other sims.
I even can select 100% with WEP and 100% without WEP in the P-51! It does not always work, but then i fly with 99%. Shouldnt be taking too much from the max. power output.

msalama
03-06-2007, 01:31 AM
Rgr Klingstroem, thought so actually...

M_Gunz
03-06-2007, 03:15 AM
Originally posted by Clipper_51:
Why would you recommend 80% PP? Based on what I have read, WWI pilots pushed the prop lever and throttle to max for full power (61'' of MP and 3,000 rm). I never understood why people recommend lower pp settings for top speed. I guess I'm missing something.

On the P-51, pp lever controls rpm and throttle mp. 80% pp is lowering engine rpm's.

See here: appears these performance tests were run a 3,000 rpm, not 2,500-2,700.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/mustangtest.html

To be fair, I re-read your post and found you did not claim that 80% resulted in top power. Your point was more to overheat issues. That said, I run my P-51 at 90% pp and %85-89% mp with closed rads and never overheat. I'm probably generating a bit more speed that way too.

Notice those are highspeed and max climb data. I don't see there anything even in the more data link (more full same report) about how long to overheat of if overheat, etc.

If you read again the first post, he lowers RPM to run engine cooler. That is real, no?
Not saying the engine should or not overheat in reality but that is how the model works
and as far as I can tell this thread is about using the model we have, not arguing about
what someone thinks was real. So far it is working very well so why spoil that?

StellarRat
03-06-2007, 12:43 PM
I don't think messing with the prop pitch is worth the trouble in most of the American planes. I haven't ever found a need to for it, so I leave it on AUTO. If you watch the controls when you reduce the prop pitch the throttle will change positions which indicates to me that the engine will never let you exceed it's designed RPMs. However, it has been a LONG time since I've attempted to use prop pitch. I do know that I can achieve the published max. speed with the P-51 without using prop pitch.

GH_Klingstroem
03-06-2007, 01:04 PM
I dont follow u StellarRat. There is no AUTO for american planes. Only german planes have it. In american planes u need to set the proppitch to desired RPM in each situation.
Im sure u can achieve the published max without touching that prop pitch control, so can I but WITHOUT overheating... AND by using the proppitch u can stay at that speed for long since u bleed less E by having a lower RPM in game.
For full accelration I use 100 PP but once speed is up I must decrease it! Look at the RPM next time to see where the RPM wants to be for the engine to be comfortable!

StellarRat
03-06-2007, 02:00 PM
I have to respectfully and totally disagree with you. There is no need to do anything with prop pitch in most of the American and British planes. They are fully automatic.

VFA-195 Snacky
03-06-2007, 02:45 PM
It's called a constant speed prop and it uses a hydraulic govenor to control prop pitch automatically. This was to maintain a desired engine RPM and control overspeed of the propeller. Having a constant speed propeller and auto mixture were ways to reduce workload for American pilots while in combat.

In this sim you can manipulate the prop pitch, but it is an automatic system. The German planes are capable of manual prop pitch as well and many use this to it's advantage.

I think you get a better speed increase from proper trim than anything else.

Good Post!

Swivet
03-06-2007, 02:52 PM
fly fast, use flaps in sharp turns, dont pull hard on stick at low alts..thats' all i do

Clipper_51
03-06-2007, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by VFA-195 Snacky:
It's called a constant speed prop and it uses a hydraulic govenor to control prop pitch automatically. This was to maintain a desired engine RPM and control overspeed of the propeller. Having a constant speed propeller and auto mixture were ways to reduce workload for American pilots while in combat.


In this sim you can manipulate the prop pitch, but it is an automatic system. The German planes are capable of manual prop pitch as well and many use this to it's advantage.

I think you get a better speed increase from proper trim than anything else.

Good Post!


I agree - I tried running it at a lower 80% pp and the engine stayed cool. However, it quickly lost oomph when climbing. Cruising at 90% pp, although not gaining me an appreciable increase in speed, allowed the engine to maintain pep for emergency manuevers and I still didn;t overheat.

Heck, you can close rads on the P-51D, run to full wep, hit overheat, then quickly lower to a 97% throttle setting and it will prompltly cool. Move back to 100% throttle and you are good to go. Try it.

M_Gunz
03-06-2007, 09:53 PM
Fly it like ya stole it?

CMHQ_Rikimaru
03-06-2007, 11:13 PM
Some tips given here, might just confuse a pilot who would like to learn something, or even they work at disadvantage. TBH, I dont care about PP setting, i dont need to fly at 100% when i dont want to, what for? If i cruise, i use 50-70% and rads full open, i use less fuel and keep engine cool. If I fight I push the throttle to the max, and close radiatiors, when i need to run away. Using flaps on high speed is biggest mistake that one can do, those will make u loose more energy, than u would loose just by pulling the stick harder. P51 dont really like flaps, its usefull to use them under speed of 300km/h, but i rarely fly P51 so slow. TBH, those small tips, messing around with PP, or spending hours on trim wont give u advantage, after some time ive found that it doesnt matter what kind of plane do u fly. Trim wont let u gain more speed at all, trim is just so u dont need to push ur stick when u dont need to. Important is when u enter a fight with single attempt, or enter a dogfight with multiple attempt, and when u must run away. Guys, leave the dogfight servers, come to the virtual fronts, u will get what im talking about. P51 wont show its advtanges at the dogfight server no matter what is the PP setting.

GH_Klingstroem
03-07-2007, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by CMHQ_Rikimaru:
Some tips given here, might just confuse a pilot who would like to learn something, or even they work at disadvantage. TBH, I dont care about PP setting, i dont need to fly at 100% when i dont want to, what for? If i cruise, i use 50-70% and rads full open, i use less fuel and keep engine cool. If I fight I push the throttle to the max, and close radiatiors, when i need to run away. Using flaps on high speed is biggest mistake that one can do, those will make u loose more energy, than u would loose just by pulling the stick harder. P51 dont really like flaps, its usefull to use them under speed of 300km/h, but i rarely fly P51 so slow. TBH, those small tips, messing around with PP, or spending hours on trim wont give u advantage, after some time ive found that it doesnt matter what kind of plane do u fly. Trim wont let u gain more speed at all, trim is just so u dont need to push ur stick when u dont need to. Important is when u enter a fight with single attempt, or enter a dogfight with multiple attempt, and when u must run away. Guys, leave the dogfight servers, come to the virtual fronts, u will get what im talking about. P51 wont show its advtanges at the dogfight server no matter what is the PP setting.

I dont agree with you here... I fly only full switch servers or Warclouds WF and the trim IS very important. Constantly having to press the stick down or up dependign on ur trim is going to cause the ball to go full left or full right! That will give u a very wobbly plane when entering a fight!

Oh and for the other guy, when u climb increase PP and when u dive decrease PP!
For people not using PP at all, you cant be flying in real life cuz otherwise, u would pay more attention to the RPM gauge! I lose no speed what so ever when i come back on PP compared to as leaving it at 100, BUT my engine stays cool AND I keep my E longer!
Obviosly, every does as they want to! I just thought I would share some tips to improve. But its so typical this forum. You give a few tips and someone flames u...

CMHQ_Rikimaru
03-07-2007, 08:05 AM
I fly only full switch servers or Warclouds WF

Have u seen what ive wrote? Virtual Fronts! And no, i dont want to flame u, but u FEEL that u save E better, but prop pitch is much simplificated in this game, so unless u can count ur advantage, its only a feeling, placebo. If a guy is coming from alt advantage, u wont run away, by gaining 20km/h. If u are attacking him, this doesnt matter also. U might missjudge his energy state by more than 50km/h easly, and u need to take decision, stay or run away, and 20km/h wont help u. I was one of the guys like u, looking for every 1km/h in pitch, trim, rudder, ball, radiator and everything, truth might hurt, but truth is, that its just a waste of time. And about trim... u dont have to think about that, its natural. But i got one trim setting for FW190, that allowes me to unload plane, which is impossible, unless u are flying real plane, or got a gauge. And i dont care what ball is showing me, when unloaded, it will lie u anyway, i use my rudder to simply flight straight, no need to think about it. More u will think in fight, worse for . Everything must be an instinct, else u are just slowing urself down.

To show u that i dont want to flame u, i think that u got very good rule to not enter a dogfight, unless some state of fuel, thats very smart rule, which i will use myselfhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

mynameisroland
03-07-2007, 09:05 AM
Sorry to interupt but you are off on this one CMHQ_Rikimaru. Allied fighters especially the Mustang and Tempest benefit a great deal from correct trimming. In the 109 of the Fw 190 it doesnt matter, infact I haver never trimmed the 190 in 4 years lol.

When you test maximum speed on Crimea if you trim properly you notice an increase in speed, when you dive in combat in the Tempest if you reduce your pitch you notice an increase in acceleration. Sure it increases pilot workload but a cool engine via Pitch manipulation or a bit of extra speed when running away thanks to trim are applicable where ever you fly.

I would have thought it even more so for a Virtual War server.

bazzaah2
03-07-2007, 09:16 AM
what is a good speed for the P51 in terms of combat?

I messed around with it the other day and seems to come in at about 630km-800km/h TAS at about 7000 metres, allowing for some shallow dives. Level flight was at about 630km/h, with 103% throttle and 80% pp. (I wish this sim were more accurate sometimes so I could feel more confident talking about RPM and MP in game, but seems out cf. Wings of Power P51 in FS9).

Am I way out here with what others manage?

JerryFodder
03-07-2007, 10:51 AM
I fly A5, 6 and 9, sometimes D9. The elevator trim needs constant attention - I cannot believe some people never trim it at all! Also, PP is important in the FW and great if you need instant cooling.

As for the 51. What a shame that for a solid all metal airframe it breaks it's wings without warning if you try anything but a very gentle dive recovery over 750km when hitting the lower alts. You'll never out-dive the FW, it'll happily hit 850km in the dive giving plenty of buffeting warning that you are at the edge. The fastest diver i've found is the Jug though which doesn't break until nearly 1100km.

Brain32
03-07-2007, 10:59 AM
I regulary dive to 890-900kmh in a P51...

GH_Klingstroem
03-07-2007, 11:09 AM
well the problem isnt the buffeting in the p51. It gives plenty of buffeting both before a stall and before overspeed. The problem I find is that u still have full elevator authority even at 850km/h. There is no reduction so u have to be VERY gentle when pulling up in dives with her. But then again. Since diving needs alot of nosedown trimming, u will minimise the wingbreak anyway when trimming is done.
I have read some reports by pilots, I remember once guy in a book call "Tumult among the clouds" where a P51 pilot states that he followed a 109 vertically down and saw the 109 hit the ground since he couldnt pull up, and he almost went in himself since the force on the stick was very heavy even in the p51 at that speed. Nothing like that in game tho...

I have no clue what the P51D model we have in the game should to speedwise at various alts so I cant tell if it is accurate at all.. Im happy with it however.

Bazzah2 I cant tell how fast the p51d should be at 7000m sorry! Maybe someone can help out?

Clipper_51
03-08-2007, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CMHQ_Rikimaru:
Some tips given here, might just confuse a pilot who would like to learn something, or even they work at disadvantage. TBH, I dont care about PP setting, i dont need to fly at 100% when i dont want to, what for? If i cruise, i use 50-70% and rads full open, i use less fuel and keep engine cool. If I fight I push the throttle to the max, and close radiatiors, when i need to run away. Using flaps on high speed is biggest mistake that one can do, those will make u loose more energy, than u would loose just by pulling the stick harder. P51 dont really like flaps, its usefull to use them under speed of 300km/h, but i rarely fly P51 so slow. TBH, those small tips, messing around with PP, or spending hours on trim wont give u advantage, after some time ive found that it doesnt matter what kind of plane do u fly. Trim wont let u gain more speed at all, trim is just so u dont need to push ur stick when u dont need to. Important is when u enter a fight with single attempt, or enter a dogfight with multiple attempt, and when u must run away. Guys, leave the dogfight servers, come to the virtual fronts, u will get what im talking about. P51 wont show its advtanges at the dogfight server no matter what is the PP setting.

I dont agree with you here... I fly only full switch servers or Warclouds WF and the trim IS very important. Constantly having to press the stick down or up dependign on ur trim is going to cause the ball to go full left or full right! That will give u a very wobbly plane when entering a fight!

Oh and for the other guy, when u climb increase PP and when u dive decrease PP!
For people not using PP at all, you cant be flying in real life cuz otherwise, u would pay more attention to the RPM gauge! I lose no speed what so ever when i come back on PP compared to as leaving it at 100, BUT my engine stays cool AND I keep my E longer!
Obviosly, every does as they want to! I just thought I would share some tips to improve. But its so typical this forum. You give a few tips and someone flames u... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nobody is flaming you dude. You don't like contrary opinions then don't post on an internet forum. Grow up a bit.

You think flying around in a Mustang at 80% pp is doing wonders for you - good! Fact is, you can keep the emgine cool without using your method, that's all that was being pointed out.

About keeping better "e" at 80% pp, well, you got me there. I have much better "e" retention when my engine is humming along at full power as long as I don't over-control the aircraft or get ham-fisted.

DKoor
03-08-2007, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
Bazzah2 I cant tell how fast the p51d should be at 7000m sorry! Maybe someone can help out? On 100% fuel, Crimea 12 o clock, with turbulence (realistic enviroment) + no overheat + unlimited fuel + radiator closed.
P-51D20 max. speed in level flight on 7k is 710km/h TAS == 470km/h IAS.
P-47D_LATE max. speed in level flight on 7k is 719km/h TAS == 480km/h IAS.
TA-152H max. speed in level flight on 7k is 681km/h TAS == 460km/h IAS.
You welcome http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

*edit* conditions specified

GH_Klingstroem
03-08-2007, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Clipper_51:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CMHQ_Rikimaru:
Some tips given here, might just confuse a pilot who would like to learn something, or even they work at disadvantage. TBH, I dont care about PP setting, i dont need to fly at 100% when i dont want to, what for? If i cruise, i use 50-70% and rads full open, i use less fuel and keep engine cool. If I fight I push the throttle to the max, and close radiatiors, when i need to run away. Using flaps on high speed is biggest mistake that one can do, those will make u loose more energy, than u would loose just by pulling the stick harder. P51 dont really like flaps, its usefull to use them under speed of 300km/h, but i rarely fly P51 so slow. TBH, those small tips, messing around with PP, or spending hours on trim wont give u advantage, after some time ive found that it doesnt matter what kind of plane do u fly. Trim wont let u gain more speed at all, trim is just so u dont need to push ur stick when u dont need to. Important is when u enter a fight with single attempt, or enter a dogfight with multiple attempt, and when u must run away. Guys, leave the dogfight servers, come to the virtual fronts, u will get what im talking about. P51 wont show its advtanges at the dogfight server no matter what is the PP setting.

I dont agree with you here... I fly only full switch servers or Warclouds WF and the trim IS very important. Constantly having to press the stick down or up dependign on ur trim is going to cause the ball to go full left or full right! That will give u a very wobbly plane when entering a fight!

Oh and for the other guy, when u climb increase PP and when u dive decrease PP!
For people not using PP at all, you cant be flying in real life cuz otherwise, u would pay more attention to the RPM gauge! I lose no speed what so ever when i come back on PP compared to as leaving it at 100, BUT my engine stays cool AND I keep my E longer!
Obviosly, every does as they want to! I just thought I would share some tips to improve. But its so typical this forum. You give a few tips and someone flames u... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nobody is flaming you dude. You don't like contrary opinions then don't post on an internet forum. Grow up a bit.

You think flying around in a Mustang at 80% pp is doing wonders for you - good! Fact is, you can keep the emgine cool without using your method, that's all that was being pointed out.

About keeping better "e" at 80% pp, well, you got me there. I have much better "e" retention when my engine is humming along at full power as long as I don't over-control the aircraft or get ham-fisted. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

U obviously have close to no experience with aircraft...

Next!

Bearcat99
03-09-2007, 05:37 AM
Originally posted by CMHQ_Rikimaru:
Some tips given here, might just confuse a pilot who would like to learn something, or even they work at disadvantage. TBH, I dont care about PP setting, i dont need to fly at 100% when i dont want to, what for? If i cruise, i use 50-70% and rads full open, i use less fuel and keep engine cool. If I fight I push the throttle to the max, and close radiatiors, when i need to run away. Using flaps on high speed is biggest mistake that one can do, those will make u loose more energy, than u would loose just by pulling the stick harder. P51 dont really like flaps, its usefull to use them under speed of 300km/h, but i rarely fly P51 so slow. TBH, those small tips, messing around with PP, or spending hours on trim wont give u advantage, after some time ive found that it doesnt matter what kind of plane do u fly. Trim wont let u gain more speed at all, trim is just so u dont need to push ur stick when u dont need to. Important is when u enter a fight with single attempt, or enter a dogfight with multiple attempt, and when u must run away. Guys, leave the dogfight servers, come to the virtual fronts, u will get what im talking about. P51 wont show its advtanges at the dogfight server no matter what is the PP setting.

I disagree with much of this.... The P-51 benefits greatly from trimming... it bleeds E much faster if not trimmed properly... judicious use of pitch and rads helps to keep the engine cool and get the most out of it.... Flaps? Use of flaps and trim in turns on a Mustang is a great boon. The secret to using flaps on the P-51 at any speed is this.... only use them for turning... either in the vertical as in a loop or the horizontal.. as in a Yo yo... and when you do make sure it is a two step move... flaps on flaps off..... and don't keep them engaged too long or they will jam.... if you go flaps on flaps on.... you are sunk.. they will jam...

Someone else mentioned wings breaking off.... The key to avoiding that is to not make pronounced changes in attitude at high speeds... it isn't so much the dive that breaks them but more the pull out.... if you break your wings before you black out then you are pulling to hard on the stick. You should start to grey out..... then you back off a bit...

M_Gunz
03-09-2007, 06:42 AM
I the more than basic aero sites they say trim counts.
Richard Deakin in discussions on flying shows in places how trim counts.
And then we have those who want to say it doesn't.

BTW, when I wrote a post here in 2002 about just holding the stick should be the same,
Oleg had replied that it is not possible to hold a PC joystick so steady, trim does
make a difference in IL2.

FWIW, it seems (only) to me that part of the handling difference 4.07 improved from 4.05
may have made that less of a problem.

Clipper_51
03-09-2007, 07:37 AM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Clipper_51:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CMHQ_Rikimaru:
Some tips given here, might just confuse a pilot who would like to learn something, or even they work at disadvantage. TBH, I dont care about PP setting, i dont need to fly at 100% when i dont want to, what for? If i cruise, i use 50-70% and rads full open, i use less fuel and keep engine cool. If I fight I push the throttle to the max, and close radiatiors, when i need to run away. Using flaps on high speed is biggest mistake that one can do, those will make u loose more energy, than u would loose just by pulling the stick harder. P51 dont really like flaps, its usefull to use them under speed of 300km/h, but i rarely fly P51 so slow. TBH, those small tips, messing around with PP, or spending hours on trim wont give u advantage, after some time ive found that it doesnt matter what kind of plane do u fly. Trim wont let u gain more speed at all, trim is just so u dont need to push ur stick when u dont need to. Important is when u enter a fight with single attempt, or enter a dogfight with multiple attempt, and when u must run away. Guys, leave the dogfight servers, come to the virtual fronts, u will get what im talking about. P51 wont show its advtanges at the dogfight server no matter what is the PP setting.

I dont agree with you here... I fly only full switch servers or Warclouds WF and the trim IS very important. Constantly having to press the stick down or up dependign on ur trim is going to cause the ball to go full left or full right! That will give u a very wobbly plane when entering a fight!

Oh and for the other guy, when u climb increase PP and when u dive decrease PP!
For people not using PP at all, you cant be flying in real life cuz otherwise, u would pay more attention to the RPM gauge! I lose no speed what so ever when i come back on PP compared to as leaving it at 100, BUT my engine stays cool AND I keep my E longer!
Obviosly, every does as they want to! I just thought I would share some tips to improve. But its so typical this forum. You give a few tips and someone flames u... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nobody is flaming you dude. You don't like contrary opinions then don't post on an internet forum. Grow up a bit.

You think flying around in a Mustang at 80% pp is doing wonders for you - good! Fact is, you can keep the emgine cool without using your method, that's all that was being pointed out.

About keeping better "e" at 80% pp, well, you got me there. I have much better "e" retention when my engine is humming along at full power as long as I don't over-control the aircraft or get ham-fisted. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

U obviously have close to no experience with aircraft...

Next! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have plenty, ace. Now, Einstein, clue us all in on your theory here. I dying to read it. Yawn.

Here some basics for you:

Energy:

There are two types of energy in air combat maneuvering: kinetic and potential. Kinetic energy is directly related to the speed or velocity that the aircraft is traveling. Potential energy is "stored" energy available for use. This does not mean stored like in batteries. Potential energy is directly proportional to the altitude of the aircraft. At high altitude, the aircraft has a HIGH potential energy, while at low altitude, the potential energy is LOW.

The easiest way to explain this is to visualize a jet at 30,000 feet. This pilot has the option to put the jet into a dive, thus increasing his airspeed. The higher he is flying, the more speed he can generate in a dive. An aircraft at low altitude of 5,000 feet has much less room to increase speed in a dive.

Always remember: you can trade altitude (potential energy) for speed. Likewise you can trade speed for potential energy. If you have one, you have the ability to have the other when you want or need it.

You can also trade energy for nose position. As I mentioned in lesson one, maneuvering costs energy, and any "dancing" you do will cause your aircraft to slow down and lose energy. The higher the G pull in a maneuver, the more "costly" to your energy level it is. The only consolation to this is that the bandit is working under the same laws of physics and has the same problems to overcome.

CMHQ_Rikimaru
03-09-2007, 07:55 AM
Yes, in RL trim affects speed, but in this game, its just like adjusting ur pitch setting, so there is no difference between constantly pulling ur stick or trimming. All ur feelings are wrong. U feel that u bleed less energy, cause when trimmed properly, plane wont move on pitch axis. But the same effect would be if u would counter every move with ur stick. So its not a big hint to tell someone that he bleeds less energy while not turninghttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

joeap
03-09-2007, 08:33 AM
Cripes GH_Klingstroem starts a thread giving tips to help his fellow flyers and gets flamed for it? Sad. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

arjisme
03-09-2007, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by CMHQ_Rikimaru:
Yes, in RL trim affects speed, but in this game, its just like adjusting ur pitch setting, so there is no difference between constantly pulling ur stick or trimming. All ur feelings are wrong. U feel that u bleed less energy, cause when trimmed properly, plane wont move on pitch axis. But the same effect would be if u would counter every move with ur stick. So its not a big hint to tell someone that he bleeds less energy while not turninghttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The overall point is to keep the ball centered. Whether through trim or through constant manual corrections, keeping it centered will improve speed and reduce loss of E. Seems a poor thing to criticize anyone for suggesting using trim to accomplish this.

I try to stay trimmed in order to reduce the amount of manual correction needed. I find it hard to keep my eyes on whats going on outside my cockpit and also having to watch the ball. Trim alleviates the need to study instruments all the time. In a flight sim, with no feedback through the butt, I find it hard to just know how much I am yawing to the right or left. Trimming helps keep the deviations smaller.

Edit: I just addressed yaw trim. You were referring to pitch trim. Pitch trim doesn't require as much attention to instruments so it is more manageable to stay correct on that when manually correcting. But trimming does reduce your workload a bit and, unless you are extremely diligent, manual controlling for pitch will not be as efficient as trimming to stay level.

aukieboy
03-09-2007, 09:59 AM
The P-51 is a very nice aircraft to fly... smooth and easy but:
As far as dogfights are concerned... I'd rather fly a La-5 or 7...

GH_Klingstroem
03-09-2007, 12:08 PM
Ok I say again if anyone missed it.
In the P51 if you have too much nose up trim you will have to push stick forward.
In game(I have no clue about the P51 in real life) but IN GAME when u push the stick forward in the P51, the ball will go all the way to the right! This gives u a very untrimmed AC along the vertical axis and U WILL bleed speed when u sideslip!
So the result of having an untrimmed p51 in the game is that the ball will go to the right and u will lose speed!
Pls try it and see for urself!
just push the stick forward in the p51 and see what the ball does! is goes ALL the way to the right. Imagine now that u have constant stick pressure(cus she is trimmed for nose up) and the ball will constantly stay there to the right!!
Hardly an AC to enter combat with!
So trim first for pitch and then for rudder!
How can it be so hard to understand?!

Clipper 51, tell me how many hours of flying time u have and what type of AC u have been flying since u know so much about the " Theory " of flying! And dont bother with the "I have no time to answer u" type of answer...

Bearcat99
03-09-2007, 07:59 PM
Klingstroem.... good post... all the nay sayers can say what they want.. but you were pretty much spot on about the P-51 in this sim. Which if I am not mistaken is what your post was about..... not real world flying... not aerodynamics.... not physics... it was about flying the P-51... as it is rendered in this sim. You were dead on.... Will it work for everyone? I don't know.... I imagine that flying any plane in this sim with a full hotas and pedals will render slightly different results from say just using a stick and a keyboard... heck.... different joysticks will render different results. Lets face it.... the factors of flight dynamics in the sim are as varied as the PCs and peripherals of the simmers. I fly a little differently with my Saitek pedals as opposed to my CH ones. Take the post for what it is worth... and either use the great advice or don't... but there is no need for anyone to "debate" the post. The post's information is sound within the confines of this sim. If you dont think so then... so be it... but I fly the P-51 almost exclusively... and everything he said about the P-51 as modelled in this sim is correct.

M_Gunz
03-09-2007, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Will it work for everyone?

Only the people that use it.

Clipper_51
03-09-2007, 09:29 PM
Bunch of sore heads. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

The P-51 needs to be trimmed alot, that much I agree on with the original poster. You can't hit max performance or shoot straight if the ball is wandering from right to left.

The stuff about lowering prop pitch, I don't agree with and is not necessary to keep a Mustang cool, IN GAME. In fact, it's more trouble than it's worth, IN GAME. As an IL-2 sim fighter, the Mustang is faster, climbs better,dives better, rolls better at higher revs and higher speeds and can be kept just as cool as the virtual Hartmann here suggests.

Out

msalama
03-10-2007, 03:23 AM
Only the people that use it.

...correctly http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I'm however not one of those folks - I absolutely suck in the Mustang http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

And hey, Klingstroem, BTW: I at least definitely never meant to flame you when I commented on those engine settings up there, so count me out of that bunch please http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Quite the contrary, actually; all flying tips are IMHO precious and important, so a big S! to those good folks like yourself who are willing to share them with us http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

CMHQ_Rikimaru
03-10-2007, 03:44 AM
I dont think that guy who doesnt know how ball indicator works, should give any hints to anyone.

msalama
03-10-2007, 04:04 AM
...should give any hints to anyone.

Well I think it's still good to publish all possible hints, opinions and suggestions anyway, because they can then be debated and possibly and optimally refined into something that's universally accepted and generally known to work in the circumstances they were developed for. No?

CMHQ_Rikimaru
03-10-2007, 04:17 AM
Mmmmm, yes u are righthttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

msalama
03-10-2007, 04:23 AM
Cheers m8 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bearcat99
03-10-2007, 07:11 AM
Originally posted by CMHQ_Rikimaru:
I dont think that guy who doesnt know how ball indicator works, should give any hints to anyone.

The ball works like this... keep it centered as much as you can and your flight will be more efficient. That's where the phrase being "On the ball" comes from. AS for the physics... who cares.... I don't give a hoot about ballistics.. I just want to learn how the guns on the planes I fly act... and how to use them best. I leave the other side of that debate to the people who have nothing else to do....

M_Gunz
03-10-2007, 07:31 AM
Originally posted by msalama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...should give any hints to anyone.

Well I think it's still good to publish all possible hints, opinions and suggestions anyway, because they can then be debated and possibly and optimally refined into something that's universally accepted and generally known to work in the circumstances they were developed for. No? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that the correct thing to do is read the tips and try them out to see what makes
differences and when, not to take ideas and rigidly apply them under all circumstances.
The latter leaves a player open to mistakes in communication of the ideas by words. The
better a player checks out and learns, the more margin the player may squeeze and the less
times the player will doing wrong things -- what is good at high speed may be bad at low.

For some/many:
Quit playing at fighting long enough to get to know the plane and try out the much without
distraction to muddle the lessons.

Bearcat99
01-12-2008, 12:12 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

GH_Klingstroem
01-12-2008, 02:59 AM
Hehe BC! I had almost forgot about this thread!
I have learnt many more things about the p51 since this thread was started. My hit percentage has increased from 5%-10% to around 10%-15% after a few hours of online play on Warclouds WF. I have also realised that more than 50% of the success in the p51 comes with good and stable stick settings that allows you to make larger stick movement but very dampened changes on the actual stick in the plane.
If you fly with CH stick some members have come to the concluion that the Il2 inputs stick settings must be att deafult or all 100% and then the use of the CH control manager must be used to get a stable stick, usally decreasing the "gain" by 2-4 clicks.
Oh and trim, the trim should be on buttons rather than on a rotary, since one click on buttons make a smaller change than one small change of a rotary. Alternatively, lower the sensitivty of the rotary. Otherwise trimming especially at high speed when u need, really really small trim inputs to stay on moving targets will be impossible!
Using il2 inputs AND CH manager together will apparently make the stick have conflicting inputs and some of my squad members get a wobbly plane that cant be flown accurately. However we are still looking into this as this is VERY VERY important for the P51!
I have started a very successfull squad called the Pegasus Squad(thx BC for that name)! www.50calibersixguns.com (http://www.50calibersixguns.com)
We mainly fly for fun but we are dedicated P51 flyers and full switch servers. It has been great to see some of our members join with just alot of interest in the p51 but little skill to fly it and after a few weeks in the squad with many training ours after watching my tracks and tutorials, see them becoming very very deadly and accurate with it.
Unfortunately my tracks on our website kept being deleted from the server where I uploaded them, even tho the server said that they wouldnt delete them for a year if they were still active..
Anyone know of a better place to upload ca 10 files??? (*.avi files and *.trk files)

Thx BC http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Stuntie
01-12-2008, 05:14 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
Thing is that D9 will usually prevail in all fair 1 v 1 fights (P-51D), so this is extremely good piece of info.


Which is a good reason not to fight fair.


Excellent set of tips. Great post.

GH_Klingstroem
01-12-2008, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by Stuntie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
Thing is that D9 will usually prevail in all fair 1 v 1 fights (P-51D), so this is extremely good piece of info.


Which is a good reason not to fight fair.


Excellent set of tips. Great post. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hm, I have won plenty of 1vs1 fights vs 190D9. I just dont fight when the numbers are not on my side. I.E when he has E andu have plent of fuel. U can always dive away and hit max speed, if he follows, well he will reach max speed too, congrats, u just equalized his to be at the same level as urs. Now u have increased the possibility to win the fight to 50/50 at least. Most experienced fw190 wont follow u in a dive tho. They will stay high!
I can outdive and then outrun fw190D9, heck I do it every day. In the p51 YOU decide when to fight, now THAT is was makes a good fighter!
As siad before, if u are low on fuel, say lower than 30 USGALS, I will happily turnfight fw190D9s anyday!! U will win 99.9% of the times!

Clipper51, haha I see u and I had bit of arguing between each other a year ago in this thread! Glad we have come to to friendly terms since then. Cant even remember we had this argument a year ago. Didnt know u back then from Warclouds. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Clipper_51
01-12-2008, 07:45 AM
Hey Kling. Yeah, kinda silly that argument, wasn't it? Folks, Kling is the top Mustang pilot on WC. He is a master.

Re: Dora vs. P-51. My take is to usually (as with all targets) hit and run. However, and most particularly when my fuel needle is below 12:00, I will engage the Doras in a classic dogfight at any altitude. They have a better power ratio than you do, but you can manuever better. Just don't let him get an upper hand.

Kling, I'm actually considering packing it in after 5 years of this sim. Another interest of mine has cropped up recently and I can't have two time-intensive hobbies! Not good for the home front, if you get my drift. I hope to see you on the server before I depart.

AnaK774
01-12-2008, 07:54 AM
Most guys flying blue, dont use rudder trim

might have something 2 do with its availability...

GH_Klingstroem
01-12-2008, 08:55 AM
Noooo Clipper dont tell me that!! May I ask what ur other interest is?

GH_Klingstroem
01-12-2008, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by AnaK774:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Most guys flying blue, dont use rudder trim

might have something 2 do with its availability... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Haha u are right of course AnaK774, what I meant was that most guys on blue side dont have the habbit of stepping on the rudder at all time in order to keep the ball centered. I certainly didnt back in my "blue" days and I would probably represent the average guy back then. Anyway, that way u are able to outrun Doras on the deck (if u both are coming out of a dive that is) because u can maintain a better trim and therefor keep ur speed up longer!

Viper2005_
01-12-2008, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CMHQ_Rikimaru:
I dont think that guy who doesnt know how ball indicator works, should give any hints to anyone.

The ball works like this... keep it centered as much as you can and your flight will be more efficient. That's where the phrase being "On the ball" comes from. AS for the physics... who cares.... I don't give a hoot about ballistics.. I just want to learn how the guns on the planes I fly act... and how to use them best. I leave the other side of that debate to the people who have nothing else to do.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The point being made is that the ball is a gravity operated device.

It works because of the interaction between gravity attempting to pull the ball down towards the middle of the tube, and any sideways force caused by yaw attempting to move the ball sideways away from the middle.

Where the ball ends up in the tube is a function of the relative magnitudes of the forces, and comes down to trigonometry.

This has some important consequences:

1) The more g you're pulling, the less displacement of the ball will be caused by any given sideforce, and vice versa.

2) At 0 g, the position of the ball is undefined, so the instrument is completely useless (effectively you're dividing by zero).

3) Under negative g conditions you need an inverted instrument; this is fitted to some aerobatic aircraft.

The slipball is a useful instrument, but it has very real limitations. How many of these limitations are modelled in IL2 I don't know because it's not something I've ever investigated...

In the case of the D20 however, the slip ball may be replaced by the gunsight since the fixed sight serves as a datum, and the gyrosight is a pretty reasonable "poor man's" flight path marker. Of course, it's actually just giving you history information, so at the small yaw rates associated with high TAS you'll only see a small deflection for quite a large sideslip force. However, it has the advantage that within the limitations of the gyro-platform it should be insensitive to gz.

Bearcat99
01-12-2008, 08:52 PM
This is a great thread Kling... I bump it when I remember.

general_kalle
01-12-2008, 09:43 PM
agreed. great use of the initial post.

some of the reply's it we could easily be without though.

Bearcat99
01-12-2008, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by StellarRat:
I don't think messing with the prop pitch is worth the trouble in most of the American planes. I haven't ever found a need to for it, so I leave it on AUTO. If you watch the controls when you reduce the prop pitch the throttle will change positions which indicates to me that the engine will never let you exceed it's designed RPMs. However, it has been a LONG time since I've attempted to use prop pitch. I do know that I can achieve the published max. speed with the P-51 without using prop pitch.


Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
I dont follow u StellarRat. There is no AUTO for american planes. Only german planes have it. In american planes u need to set the proppitch to desired RPM in each situation.
Im sure u can achieve the published max without touching that prop pitch control, so can I but WITHOUT overheating... AND by using the proppitch u can stay at that speed for long since u bleed less E by having a lower RPM in game.
For full accelration I use 100 PP but once speed is up I must decrease it! Look at the RPM next time to see where the RPM wants to be for the engine to be comfortable!


Originally posted by StellarRat:
I have to respectfully and totally disagree with you. There is no need to do anything with prop pitch in most of the American and British planes. They are fully automatic.


Originally posted by Clipper_51: posted 2/9/07
Bunch of sore heads. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif
The P-51 needs to be trimmed alot, that much I agree on with the original poster. You can't hit max performance or shoot straight if the ball is wandering from right to left.
The stuff about lowering prop pitch, I don't agree with and is not necessary to keep a Mustang cool, IN GAME. In fact, it's more trouble than it's worth, IN GAME. As an IL-2 sim fighter, the Mustang is faster, climbs better,dives better, rolls better at higher revs and higher speeds and can be kept just as cool as the virtual Hartmann here suggests.

Out


Originally posted by Clipper_51: posted 1/12/08
Hey Kling. Yeah, kinda silly that argument, wasn't it? Folks, Kling is the top Mustang pilot on WC. He is a master.

Re: Dora vs. P-51. My take is to usually (as with all targets) hit and run. However, and most particularly when my fuel needle is below 12:00, I will engage the Doras in a classic dogfight at any altitude. They have a better power ratio than you do, but you can manuever better. Just don't let him get an upper hand.

Kling, I'm actually considering packing it in after 5 years of this sim. Another interest of mine has cropped up recently and I can't have two time-intensive hobbies! Not good for the home front, if you get my drift. I hope to see you on the server before I depart.

Clipper only real men admit when they are wrong.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif ~!S!~

There is no way to reach max speed in a P-51 in staraight and level flight without proper trim and using pitch... Kling I was thinking that if you had the time you should actuaLLY TEACH A CLASS AT jo ON THE p-51... If you have the time and you dont already.

dieg777
01-13-2008, 03:39 AM
S

nice thread guys - Im trying to learn how to get the best from these planes but finding it awkward to handle ( funnily enough I find the same with the tempest )- the wing seems to float a bit and the snap stall gets me a few times

anyway to the point and Ok this is probably a very silly question but is there any difference in the P-51D5 and the P-51D-20 APART FROM THE GUNSIGHT ?

which do you guys prefer? - Iv heard some prefer the D5 as they can see the ball easily on the gunsight

I seem to find the d5 easier but it might be some weird placebo effect ?

GH_Klingstroem
01-13-2008, 11:38 AM
There is no difference between the D5 and the d20 in this game exept the gunsight as u mentioned. IRL most D5s didnt have the dorsal fin, i.e that extended part of the tail fin along the fuselage. The tail section would resemble that of the P51B and P51C. That would IRL make it a bit more unstable along the vertical axis, and probably a bit more wobbly. (Like the B and C models are in game) In the game tho there is no FM diff between the D5 and the D20.
Some people prefer the D5 for the reason u stated. Personally I prefer the D20. I just find it easier to aim with for some reason and I never use the gyro gunsight...

buzzsaw1939
01-13-2008, 02:50 PM
Ya!.. I don't eather, if you get a chance for a quick high angle snap shot, It's not there! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

scaredycat1
01-14-2008, 05:42 AM
GH_Klinstoem a late thanks! Ive had this sim since it came out, was excited when the 51 came out. always pissed me off that i couldnt fly it.
Thanks to you and everyone else in your thread i can usauly win on QNB 4 vs 8 - 4, 109f2, 4 190 a4s, its FUN as hell to be able to be more than a target in my favorite ride!!! THANKS

Osprey_334th
06-28-2008, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
In the 109 or the Fw 190 it doesnt matter, infact I haver never trimmed the 190 in 4 years lol.

German aircraft have no rudder trim = true. But how many have looked at the slip ball when doing 500kmph in the Anton? You'll find it bang in the middle and 500kmph is a nice speed to be hunting with in the Anton.

I've never had any joy out of the constant speed prop - manual for me every time. I'm not looking to squeeze max speed unless I really am desperate to get away but I want my fuel to last, I want to stay cool until i'm in the fight and I want to be fast. Staying alive isn't always about the 1 or 2 kmph extra but reading your situation before you jump in and this is more often than not experience based - if someone has more e than you then you'd better do something because running away in a straight line all trimmed up might not be the answer.

chunkydora
06-29-2008, 10:46 AM
This post by Klingstroem should always be at the top of the forum, no joke.

Could somebody maybe work that out?

Bearcat99
06-29-2008, 02:13 PM
bump

WTE_Ibis
09-04-2008, 11:13 PM
GH_Klingstroem quote:
Using il2 inputs AND CH manager together will apparently make the stick have conflicting inputs and some of my squad members get a wobbly plane that cant be flown accurately. However we are still looking into this as this is VERY VERY important for the P51!
=========================================
Aint that the truth!
Thanks Kling, great post m8, very helpful.
If you get the above sorted will you please post the solution here. And it's not only the Mustang.
Thanks, Ibis
ps. I'll check back from time to time.


.

kingtiger2008
09-21-2008, 03:16 AM
P-51 is one of my favourite aircrafts, and i think one of the most important things when fly it is a smooth joystick setting, especially <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">PITCH</span>. I have been playing IL-2 for six months(online + offline) and spent five months to find a suitable setting and for now it is:

Roll: 0 1 2 5 11 19 32 49 67 100, Dead Band: 10, Filtering: 0
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">PITCH : 0 3 7 13 21 31 45 61 77 100, Dead Band: 10, Filtering: 0</span>
Yaw: 0 3 9 16 25 34 46 61 81 100, Dead Band: 10, Filtering: 0

It works ok with deflection shooting, but still sensitive when aim straight foward http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif . When i'm diving down or even at his six, opponent make small movement and i immediately feel difficult to aim. I tried Kling's setting but it doesn't work with me and not good in turn, and i don't want to quit the game in order to change setting every time fly another aircraft.

Any help please?
My joystick is Saitek AV8R, and... sorry for my terrible English.

M_Gunz
09-21-2008, 04:02 AM
Kingtiger -- try some filter and... what's with the deadband? Loose stick?

Also just for try once and see, lower the prop rpms going into gunnery pass and see how that
affects your ability to correct aim.

But the Filter -- at least 2 or 3 notches just for tryout. It will make you smoother and take
the stick spiking down like Dolby takes hiss out of audio tape.

kingtiger2008
09-21-2008, 06:51 AM
Thanks for helping, M-Gunz http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.


Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Kingtiger -- try some filter and... what's with the deadband? Loose stick?
No, i used it for my old Saitek Evo and it became habit. So although this AV8R is a new one i still use the deadband, seem make my gunnery more stable.


Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Also just for try once and see, lower the prop rpms going into gunnery pass and see how that
affects your ability to correct aim.
When lower the prop-pitch or speed change i allways use trim to correct aim. Problem is when the opponent make SMALL movement my joy set isn't smooth enough to react correctly.


Originally posted by M_Gunz:
But the Filter -- at least 2 or 3 notches just for tryout. It will make you smoother and take
the stick spiking down like Dolby takes hiss out of audio tape.
The Filtering is good when maneuvering but seem like it has accuracy problem when i use snapshot. Anyway, i'll give it a try and see http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif .

M_Gunz
09-21-2008, 07:18 AM
Personally I find deadzone to be a real problem and only use it when I have loose hardware
that nothing else works. (ie, I'm going shopping soon)

The reason is because I don't know just how far the stick moves before I'm out of the deadzone
unless I move it reeeeal slow. It's too easy for me to lose proportion with deadzone but your
mileage may vary.

The reason I lower prop speed is to lessen gyroscopic forces. They are what makes the nose move
up or down as well as to the side if you just rudder in correction. 4 metal prop blades turning
at 3000 rpm is gonna have more effect than the same at 2400 rpm. This is in passes at 500+ kph,
would the engine be overloaded at 80% rpm? I doubt it when the same is not overloaded at 100%
rpm and only 300 kph! Not that engine loading is modeled in IL2 but there's purists....

Afterhours
09-21-2008, 07:50 AM
Ultima-Latet is one of the best P-51 pilot on HL.

If you ever get a chance to go up against him do it and you will see exactly what can be done with the P-51D in this sim.

Bearcat99
09-21-2008, 11:38 AM
Ultima-Latet is one of the best P-51 pilot on HL.

If you ever get a chance to go up against him do it and you will see exactly what can be done with the P-51D in this sim.



Gee... I wonder if he uses good luck charms and amulets like TIR, trim prop pitch and all other the features of the plane as modeled in the sim.. like a "newb".. (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/9161055786/p/1) or if he flies like a [i]real flight sim veteran with just a twist joystick and a hat switch. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

I'm just sayin...

stalkervision
09-21-2008, 12:34 PM
Here is a tip on flying the p-51 from an actual pilot that flies the real warbirds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFl8X4y9-94&feature=related

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Jaws2002
09-21-2008, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by stalkervision:
Here is a tip on flying the p-51 from an actual pilot that flies the real warbirds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFl8X4y9-94&feature=related

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Now run. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

stalkervision
09-21-2008, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
Here is a tip on flying the p-51 from an actual pilot that flies the real warbirds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFl8X4y9-94&feature=related

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Now run. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Aaron_GT
09-21-2008, 02:06 PM
That would IRL make it a bit more unstable along the vertical axis, and probably a bit more wobbly. (Like the B and C models are in game) In the game tho there is no FM diff between the D5 and the D20.

This was one of the chief complaints about the P-51D in the Joint Fighter Conference in October 1944.

M_Gunz
09-21-2008, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ultima-Latet is one of the best P-51 pilot on HL.

If you ever get a chance to go up against him do it and you will see exactly what can be done with the P-51D in this sim.



Gee... I wonder if he uses good luck charms and amulets like TIR, trim prop pitch and all other the features of the plane as modeled in the sim.. like a "newb".. (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/9161055786/p/1) or if he flies like a [i]real flight sim veteran with just a twist joystick and a hat switch. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

I'm just sayin... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It depends on the direction of the wind at any moment, dontcha know?

M_Gunz
09-21-2008, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by stalkervision:
Here is a tip on flying the p-51 from an actual pilot that flies the real warbirds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFl8X4y9-94&feature=related

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Real warbirds or post-war modifieds?

slipBall
09-21-2008, 04:25 PM
OK, so I'm at work the other day (I work on the water)...all of a sudden a p-51 with Normady marking's heads at me in a steep dive. He fly's by and does a climbing barrel role. He made another pass at me, see's me waving a red bag, and then tips his wing at me...it was my birthday, it made my day!... the sound was amazing

strider1
01-26-2009, 09:26 AM
Bumpski for all the new simmers who may not have seen this "food for thought" post.

Persecutor_352
01-27-2009, 11:44 PM
Kling's tracks and movie files are mirrored here (http://352ndfg.com/smf/index.php?topic=1214.0).

AA_Double_Tap
01-28-2009, 01:34 AM
Thanks 352. The original links from K's initial posts do not work anymore. Much appreciated.

kingtiger2008
01-28-2009, 04:53 AM
After my first post in this topic i praticed more offline + online with some different joystick settings(in the P-51D of course). And finally i found out that Kling was totally right when he said the first numbers in input option must be as small as possible http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif . It won't help a rookie become gunnery master with 15% rate hit immediately, but that's the only choice if you want to hit something in the Mustang - the most difficult gunnery plane in IL-2.

AllorNothing117
01-28-2009, 10:06 AM
Not read all 6 pages of replies, but what a fantastic pos. The replies are testomany to that. This helped me allot, Radiator closed! Fantastic advice! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BigKahuna_GS
01-28-2009, 08:14 PM
S!



Stalkervision--Here is a tip on flying the p-51 from an actual pilot that flies the real warbirds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...9-94&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFl8X4y9-94&feature=related)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I am not sure why people here always point to civilian pilots that have never flown the P51 to the extreme in combat
as some kind of "proof" as to the way the P51 should fly in their minds.


Try watching a P51 combat pilot--Bud Anderson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...IeUY&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2kkwWFIeUY&feature=related)


Other than that this is a great thread on how to fly IL2 P51.

Too bad there isn't a historical 8th AF or RAF Mustang Mk IV P51D overboosted on 150grade fuel in this sim.

_

GH_Klingstroem
01-29-2009, 05:20 AM
haha I had almost forgotten I wrote this one back in 2007...

kingtiger2008
01-29-2009, 07:54 AM
i'm glad that you still here Kling. Before reading this topic, in my mind the P-51 had been flying coffin. And after that it became the aicraft i mainly fly with http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif , all thank to you.

You still playing IL-2?

GH_Klingstroem
01-29-2009, 08:44 AM
I play Il2 every day for a few hours! Never got tired of it. And the p51 is still my only ride http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bearcat99
06-27-2009, 12:39 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/typing.gif

GH_Klingstroem
06-27-2009, 01:28 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

slipBall
06-27-2009, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by slipBall:
OK, so I'm at work the other day (I work on the water)...all of a sudden a p-51 with Normady marking's heads at me in a steep dive. He fly's by and does a climbing barrel role. He made another pass at me, see's me waving a red bag, and then tips his wing at me...it was my birthday, it made my day!... the sound was amazing



Sadly, that same pilot of that P 51 lost his life in a terrible crash a few months later
http://www.nypost.com/seven/04...hes_in_li_163062.htm (http://www.nypost.com/seven/04052009/news/regionalnews/ww2_plash_crashes_in_li_163062.htm)

wheelsup_cavu
06-27-2009, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by slipBall:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by slipBall:
OK, so I'm at work the other day (I work on the water)...all of a sudden a p-51 with Normady marking's heads at me in a steep dive. He fly's by and does a climbing barrel role. He made another pass at me, see's me waving a red bag, and then tips his wing at me...it was my birthday, it made my day!... the sound was amazing
Sadly, that same pilot of that P 51 lost his life in a terrible crash a few months later
http://www.nypost.com/seven/04...hes_in_li_163062.htm (http://www.nypost.com/seven/04052009/news/regionalnews/ww2_plash_crashes_in_li_163062.htm) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
I am saddened to hear that slipBall.


Wheels

Bearcat99
06-27-2009, 08:37 PM
Yes it is.... I would hate to be in that son's shoes.. my heart goes out to him.

Trefle
07-06-2009, 04:11 PM
I bump it cause it is the best thread in town IMHO , useful for people who like this bird http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cent1990
08-03-2009, 11:27 PM
Can the P51c match the p47 up at alt? il2 Copmpare says so, but idk, I've been known to go over 700 at 10500m and thats not on il2 compare so...

megalopsuche
08-04-2009, 09:10 AM
Great thread. Thanks for the bump. It looks like I have a lot of experimenting to do with radiator and prop pitch controls.

TS_Sancho
03-14-2010, 03:28 PM
Deleted, wrong thread.

kimosabi79
03-15-2010, 05:05 AM
Thanks for bumping this, trefle. Lots of good hints in here. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif