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BobbyBrinks
06-07-2007, 12:34 AM
Im relatively new to the game, though i have been flying sims off and on for a while. I consider myself a pretty decent dogfighter and ive definitely mastered the basics. Recently though, I've been trying the 09 out online, and really been struggling against the spit9. When i surpise one or have an alt advantage i seem to fare extremely well, im not worried about that at all.

however, if i seem to struggle tactically agiansts spits that i start neutral with. Heres the situation that id like to focus on....

09k versus SpitIXe (or any other popular spit variant) at around 2k meters.
We go head to head and merge and no dmg is dealt in the head on shootout...
What is the best option now for me in the 09k?

Ive tried a number of different things. Turning with the spit obviously always results in disaster. going vertical and trying to loop with it seems to be the best choice if i have to stay and fight, but that usually is lacking too. Running straight through and extending works fine, but all to often the spit will turn and start running me down (and then im in an even worse situation, because now its completely behind me).

The only strategy that seems to work semi decently is when it gets behind me to try and force an overshoot (since if i try and run they seem to catch me). Im pretty decent at doing this, but experienced pilots are extremely difficult to force into an overshoot. And letting someone get behind you is in general a pretty crappy strategy. Any ideas on things i could try after the merge? or is the answer ctrl+E and respawn back in as a fw-190 or spit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Manu-6S
06-07-2007, 01:03 AM
Don't play with Spits, above all in G/K model.

Fight only if you have energy advantage (very much energy).

Head on are a stupid idea IMO: you have not the firepower of the spit, above all if you fire with mk108 (low ROF).

If there are FWs in the planeset take them and fight tactically, don't dogfight because Spit will win.

Kurfurst__
06-07-2007, 01:21 AM
Team tactics... any late 109 you will be flying have a big speed advantage over the eaerlier, lighter and more manouverable Spits from 1943. You need to use energy tactics, fighting in the vertical after gaining altitude advantage (it should be very easy, since you outclimb them). If you're both faster and have a wingman, it's pretty easy if one of you runs and gets the (slower) Spit is caught between a sandwhich. It can't catch you, but your wingman can catch him.

In short, you would need the same tactics as against Russian fighters. It's also as for optimal altitude is concerned. Don't fight on the deck, the higher you go with the high alt 109s, the better for you. Remember to keep your radiators shut or closely shut when extending. Keep an eye on slideslip - these may rob you of your performance advantage.

Alternatively, you can pick up a 109G-2 which is not as fast or a good climber as the late ones, but it is more manouverable and an experienced pilot can beat the Spit in manouvers in it as they are about equal (Spit having a slight edge, but if you're a better pilot..Make sure when flying with a late 109 to make maximum use of power, and the fact the 109 is more stable in flight (not such harsh stalls, even if it occurs earlier). If you can force him into violent manouvers, he will bleed speed quickly, and may make a mistake and simply pancake.. I've seen too many Spits just stalling and flicking out, the pilots being just poor at flyin them correctly. It's much more sensitive on the stick, dynamic stalls are more likely to happen.

Otherwise, just the old trick. Boom and zoom. Works against everything. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Xiolablu3
06-07-2007, 01:31 AM
Very tough, unless you are a dedicated late Bf109 pilot and know all the tricks.

I suggest a Bf109G6A/S unless you really want the 30mm cannon. It seems to be a bit lighter in the nose than the 30mm cannon versions to me although that might be just me, I dont fly late 109's much, but I love the Bf109F4 in 1941. In 1941, the 109F4 is the best plane, but in 1944 the tables have turned and the Spitfire IX is a little better than the Bf109's as an all round fighter.

Is it the Spitfire 25lbs you are fighting? If so then I am guessing you are on 334th or Big Top style server. I have no experience fighting this plane in a Bf109 as I will always take a FW190D9 if the 25lbs is around - I need a speed advantage over it at all costs, and I need to be able to manouvre AT those high speeds, which the Bf109 is not so good at.

Don't forget to use your teamates, if he gets onto your tail, you should be faster and be able to drag him back to your base and teamates, he can either keep following and die, or break off.

Cant offer much above that, you already mentioned what my answer would be - respawn in a FW190A9 if its a normal SPitfire IX, or a Dora if its a 25lbs. (This being on Allies vs Axis servers) The best Spitfire vs Bf109 fighting to be had in Il2 in my opinion is in 1941 between the Spit V and the Bf109F4, if you can find a server with this match up, then try it out (Winds Of War and Ukded2 definitely have some good maps with these planes)

JG52Karaya-X
06-07-2007, 02:59 AM
If you're determined to stay and fight the Spit in this particular situation then I would suggest going into a left or right spiral climb, when you are approaching stall speed you should then either perform a hammerhead or just a simple wingover in the direction of your opponent, if he decides to zoom after you that should give you the opportunity of taking a shot.

If you're not all that eager of fighting the Spit all by yourself then just push the nose forward and dive away, any late 109 from the G6AS should dive quite a bit better (and longer) than the SpitIX

As already mentioned horizontal turn fight against Spits are a big no-no in the late 109s

DKoor
06-07-2007, 04:54 AM
Originally posted by BobbyBrinks:
09k versus SpitIXe (or any other popular spit variant) at around 2k meters.
We go head to head and merge and no dmg is dealt in the head on shootout... Rgr


What is the best option now for me in the 09k? Let's see...


Ive tried a number of different things. Rgr


Turning with the spit obviously always results in disaster. +1 in most cases, but not all.


going vertical and trying to loop with it seems to be the best choice if i have to stay and fight, but that usually is lacking too. That may be, depends heavily on situation, but in vertical part if you manage to get +600m separation above Spitfire he's screwed.


Running straight through and extending works fine, but all to often the spit will turn and start running me down (and then im in an even worse situation, because now its completely behind me). That is a winner tactic, *but* only if you must agree to such fight due to some reasons (otherwise see my last opinion in this post), because after the merge continue straight then climb then sharp climb ending in full vertical 90?. Thing is, if you do it right there is no way he can follow you and be in gun range.
Two factors are decisive here:
-observing what the Spitfire does, if he goes for a turn immediately then this will work like a charm, if he goes for a climb... hey you can always force a head on if you like, or just extend and repeat until he goes for a horizontal turn after the merge in which case you go up
-your correct timing after he does the turn, you must manage your energy well Spitfire will miss you more than 9/10 times in vertical low speed chase providing you have enough separation


The only strategy that seems to work semi decently is when it gets behind me to try and force an overshoot (since if i try and run they seem to catch me). That works if they are inexperienced or overeager to shoot you down, otherwise you're no more than a sitting duck... certainly not a good tactic but it is an excellent evasive tactic IMHO.
I have noticed that diving away from the Spitfire is not a very good tactic they can stay in the gun range Vs Gustav if he is initially gained on you, that works good only in shallow dives (where you conserve your energy) and if you have a separation... so if he gained on you best is probably force a slow fight then disengage at first chance (when he turns to get on your tail)... 109 has a nice acceleration close the radiator, MW50 up and firewall the throttle. You can run safely 1:30* and more (depending on the MW50 use and other factors) with overheat then you must cool off the engine but that minute and a half should be enough to keep the Spitfire at safe distance.
One bad thing is.... Spitfire will not have the prob with overheat, nowhere near like a 109! So you must calculate that too! Longer the fight lasts less chance you get... there is a low range (enormous fuel consumption) on 109 part too to be acknowledged.


Im pretty decent at doing this, but experienced pilots are extremely difficult to force into an overshoot. And letting someone get behind you is in general a pretty crappy strategy. Yes totally agreed... in the light of my comment directly above. You can always force a Spitfire to overshoot there is no prob on that part... just if he fills you with holes prior to that there is no point in doing that maneuver.


Any ideas on things i could try after the merge? or is the answer ctrl+E and respawn back in as a fw-190 or spit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The best thing you can do is to observe him and counter his moves, but in some kind of close up mix you must be awared that you must be a better pilot to win that. It's just that simple.
I see veterans getting shot down frequently because they underestimate their oppos... thing is - don't give them any chances! Any.
Full coward tactic.

I operate best when I'm unseen and generally I avoid any kind of dogfight and aerial combat on realistic servers.

With K4... you have nothing to seek in close fight with Spitfire - he is just superior in most maneuvers so what kind of a pilot would agree to such fight?

No instead just firewall the throttle and find another target who did not seen you yet. You can still disengage at will which is enormous advantage. 109 is still a faster plane in level flight.

That is the best tactic you can get.
No matter what others have said to me, once I get myself into a close combat I'm nothing more than a sitting duck, so I generally avoid any kind of such "actions"... no better feeling then when you bounce someone, cut the throttle, close up to 200m and fill him with lead and just fly away with full throttle.

But hey... that is the biggest art of it all. And the irony is... it's a full valid tactic when you fly a Spitfire too!

* radiator closed - full cool engine of 6AS will overheat at around 2:30 running level at max power (emergency, MW50 on) on deck, and will damage engine about 7 mins after that moment... translated means that you can run 5:30-6:00 mins from the point you get the overheat message!
Just... try not to do that! Because you'll rarely fly that "level" you'll probably climb, slow down etc. which shortens that "recovering" period quite a bit.
So with everything taken into consideration and with max caution periods from 1:30-2:00 should be safe to do on regular basis. And that gives you some reasonable "cooling off" periods which are very important too.

tigertalon
06-07-2007, 06:49 AM
Hey BobbyBrinks, wellcome to the forums. U poor sap u don't know what you got urself into! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif j/k

From your initial post it seems you are not using the MW50 water methanol boost. Make sure you chop throttle low before engaging it, or you can ruin your engine. There is no way a spit IX can catch any late war 109s at any alt (apart from stratosphere) in a straight run if you use MW50. 109 should be some 50kph faster.

(note, I do not speak about 25lbsUFOroxxorsPwn)

For fighting spits, only two choices come to my mind:

K4 - stay faaaaaaast, fight in vertical, try outclimbing him whenever you can, you always have the diveaway option.

G2 - maneouver with him at speeds as slow as possible, riding on the edge of stall - you will still need a bit of luck to survive/win.

AKA_TAGERT
06-07-2007, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by BobbyBrinks:
Im relatively new to the game, though i have been flying sims off and on for a while. I consider myself a pretty decent dogfighter and ive definitely mastered the basics. Recently though, I've been trying the 09 out online, and really been struggling against the spit9. When i surpise one or have an alt advantage i seem to fare extremely well, im not worried about that at all.

however, if i seem to struggle tactically agiansts spits that i start neutral with. Heres the situation that id like to focus on....

09k versus SpitIXe (or any other popular spit variant) at around 2k meters.
We go head to head and merge and no dmg is dealt in the head on shootout...
What is the best option now for me in the 09k?

Ive tried a number of different things. Turning with the spit obviously always results in disaster. <span class="ev_code_yellow">going vertical and trying to loop with it seems to be the best choice if i have to stay and fight,</span> but that usually is lacking too. Running straight through and extending works fine, but all to often the spit will turn and start running me down (and then im in an even worse situation, because now its completely behind me).

The only strategy that seems to work semi decently is when it gets behind me to try and force an overshoot (since if i try and run they seem to catch me). Im pretty decent at doing this, but experienced pilots are extremely difficult to force into an overshoot. And letting someone get behind you is in general a pretty crappy strategy. Any ideas on things i could try after the merge? or is the answer ctrl+E and respawn back in as a fw-190 or spit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
YES USE THE ROC LUKE!

Stick with vertical manuvers when in the 109K-4 or 109K-4C3!

In that the in-game 109K-4 has a ~30% better climb rate than the real thing.. Here is a link to the proof.

http://airwarfare.com/Bf-109K-4_ANALYSIS (http://airwarfare.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1967&sid=b2660823c1b3c18854f52a568ba6b15e)

As for the 109K-4C3, same! In that it has a ~20% better climb rate than the real thing.. Here is a link to the proof.

http://airwarfare.com/Bf-109K-4C3_ANALYSIS (http://airwarfare.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1965&sid=b2660823c1b3c18854f52a568ba6b15e)

In both cases, the best altitude is around ~6m so try and drag the fight up from ~2m to 6m to take full advantage of these ROC BUGS!

Manu-6S
06-07-2007, 08:25 AM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:


Ehi TAG! What do you think about elevator stiffness? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Seriously...

AKA_TAGERT
06-07-2007, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by Manu-6S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:


Ehi TAG! What do you think about elevator stiffness? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Seriously... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't think there is enough real world data to say one way or another... As in making an in-game measurement and comparing to the real thing..

Which leaves us with pilot accounts only.

Most of which say how it felt like it was in a block of cement at speeds over 300mph.

But I 'FEEL' the 109s and the P38s both get a bit of a raw deal with regards to el stiffness.

AKA_TAGERT
06-07-2007, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
YES USE THE ROC LUKE!
109K is not able to outclimb spitfireIX effectively in a sustained climb, even if going from sea level to stratosphere. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Disagree 100%


Originally posted by tigertalon:
Yes it has marginally better ROC (while it is overmodelled or not, I don't know)
A 30% better ROC is not what I would call 'marginally better'


Originally posted by tigertalon:
and it can gain some separation but not enough to start BnZing effectively.
Disagree 100%

tigertalon
06-07-2007, 08:54 AM
Sry erased my post, wanted to rephrase it. Ah well...


Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
YES USE THE ROC LUKE!
109K is not able to outclimb spitfireIX effectively in a sustained climb, even if going from sea level to stratosphere. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Disagree 100%
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Got track? Seriously...


Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
Yes it has marginally better ROC (while it is overmodelled or not, I don't know)
A 30% better ROC is not what I would call 'marginally better'
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"marginally better" was reffered to SpitIX climb rate, not RL 109K sustained ROC.


Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
and it can gain some separation but not enough to start BnZing effectively.
Disagree 100% </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Upper track will do.

Manu-6S
06-07-2007, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Most of which say how it felt like it was in a block of cement at speeds over 300mph.

But I 'FEEL' the 109s and the P38s both get a bit of a raw deal with regards to el stiffness.

Yes I agree about this (but I think it differently about the "Most of which").

There are so many things that we can't estimate because we have no data.

As you know I agree about overmodelled roc of K4, but I also don't understand why the elevator stiffness is been modelled by the lowest speed possible...

Brain32
06-07-2007, 09:25 AM
Which leaves us with pilot accounts only.

Most of which say how it felt like it was in a block of cement at speeds over 300mph.
Disagree 100% Most accounts say at 300MPH one just started to feel heavyness, cement comments are mostly related to 600kmh(~370MPH)+ speeds although I have documents of 109 dive testing where speeds of mach 0,8+ were achieved http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


But I 'FEEL' the 109s and the P38s both get a bit of a raw deal with regards to el stiffness.
Agreed 1000%


109K is not able to outclimb spitfireIX effectively in a sustained climb, even if going from sea level to stratosphere.
Define "effectively", looking at raw climb data it most certanly can.

tigertalon
06-07-2007, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> 109K is not able to outclimb spitfireIX effectively in a sustained climb, even if going from sea level to stratosphere.
Define "effectively", looking at raw climb data it most certanly can. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure it can...


Originally posted by tigertalon:
and it can gain some separation but not enough to start BnZing effectively.

AKA_TAGERT
06-07-2007, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by tigertalon:
Sry erased my post, wanted to rephrase it. Ah well...
What can I say! I am quick! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
YES USE THE ROC LUKE!
109K is not able to outclimb spitfireIX effectively in a sustained climb, even if going from sea level to stratosphere. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Disagree 100%
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Got track? Seriously... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
YES! Seriously!

The track of the Spit 25lb can be found here..
http://airwarfare.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2039&sid=2...26e87499d7e1b1492f53 (http://airwarfare.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2039&sid=22080b9d096f26e87499d7e1b1492f53)

The track of the 109K-4 can be found here..
http://airwarfare.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1967&sid=2...26e87499d7e1b1492f53 (http://airwarfare.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1967&sid=22080b9d096f26e87499d7e1b1492f53)

Here is the difference in ROC between the two tests
<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">00000m ~24.25m/s E+ ~27.00m/s E- Spit by 2.75m/s
02000m ~24.50m/s E+ ~24.00m/s E- 109K-4 by 0.50m/s
02500m ~25.00m/s E+ ~22.00m/s E- 109K-4 by 3.00m/s
04000m ~24.25m/s E+ ~22.75m/s 0 109K-4 by 1.50m/s
06000m ~19.75m/s E+ ~16.00m/s E- 109K-4 by 3.75m/s
08000m ~13.00m/s E- ~09.75m/s E- 109K-4 by 3.25m/s
10000m ~06.50m/s E- ~-3.75m/s E- 109K-4 by 2.75m/s</pre>

Where
E+ = Climbs beter than the real thing
E- = Climbs worse than the real thing
0 = Climbs just like the real thing

As you can see, at all altitudes above sea level the in-game 109K-4 climbs better than the in-game Spit 25lb.

Thus proving you're your statement wrong! With regards to the in-game planes!

NOTE Your statement would be true if we were to compare REAL WORLD ROC values!

But, due to the BUG in the 109K-4 climbing BETTER than it should and the BUG in the Spit 25lb climbing WORSE than it should, that is not the case in the game.

Granted, the in-game Spit can climb a little better than my test shows because I used the real world best climb speed instead of the in-game best climb speed. Which has the effect of increasing the Spit 25lb ROC by about 1 to 1.5m/s at some altitudes. Therefore the in-game Spit 25lb would climb about as good as the 109K-4 at more altitudes.. BUT Still worse than what a REAL Spit 25lb could do.


Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
Yes it has marginally better ROC (while it is overmodelled or not, I don't know)
A 30% better ROC is not what I would call 'marginally better'
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"marginally better" was reffered to SpitIX climb rate, not RL 109K sustained ROC. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ah, ok, but that is still wrong. Depending on which real world data you go by, there is one test that shows the in-game Spit 25lb climbing better than it should at low altitudes. Where as the in-game 109K-4 climbs better than it should.. MUCH BETTER THAN IT SHOULD at low and medium altitudes.


Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
and it can gain some separation but not enough to start BnZing effectively.
Disagree 100% </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Upper track will do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
See above for the links

AKA_TAGERT
06-07-2007, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by Manu-6S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Most of which say how it felt like it was in a block of cement at speeds over 300mph.

But I 'FEEL' the 109s and the P38s both get a bit of a raw deal with regards to el stiffness.
Yes I agree about this (but I think it differently about the "Most of which"). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not surprising


Originally posted by Manu-6S:
There are so many things that we can't estimate because we have no data.
Is what I am saying


Originally posted by Manu-6S:
As you know I agree about overmodelled roc of K4,
Ok, didn't know that, but Ok.


Originally posted by Manu-6S:
but I also don't understand why the elevator stiffness is been modelled by the lowest speed possible...
Why?

Because Oleg's opinion of how it should be based off pilot accounts is different from you opinion. That is the sad thing about opinions! They are based off personal experiences and not numbers. There is no way to show a percent error between an opinion and the real thing because there is not real thing to compare to.

Brain32
06-07-2007, 10:54 AM
and the BUG in the Spit 25lb climbing WORSE than it should,
WRONG!

AKA_TAGERT
06-07-2007, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Which leaves us with pilot accounts only.

Most of which say how it felt like it was in a block of cement at <span class="ev_code_yellow">speeds over 300mph.</span>
Disagree 100% Most accounts say at 300MPH one just started to feel heavyness, cement comments are mostly related to 600kmh(~370MPH)+ speeds </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not sure.. but the last time I check 370mph is OVER 300mph.


Originally posted by Brain32:
although I have documents of 109 dive testing where speeds of mach 0,8+ were achieved http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
So? Most of us have the book TEST PILOT that talks about the 109 high speed dive tests and how it allmost killed the test pilot due to 'heavyness' in the elevator. But, such test results only confim the 300mph+ statement. Just because the guy did NOT lawn dart does not mean the elevator was not heavy.

AKA_TAGERT
06-07-2007, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> and the BUG in the Spit 25lb climbing WORSE than it should,
WRONG! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Depends on which real world test you are refering to. If you use the real world climb speeds the statement is NOT wrong. Except in one of the two tests where it did manage to exceed the ROC values below ~2km.

http://www.geocities.com/grantsenn/NACA_TESTING/ANALYSIS/TEST_TYPE/ROC/408/SPITIX25LB/ME_01/ROC_ALL.JPG

I have not done the in-game best climb speed test of the Spit 25lb yet, but I know you have and I seem to recall it improved the ROC by about 1 to 1.5m/s at low and mid altitudes.

Which was still lower than at all altitudes per one test and exceeded the ROC at low altitudes in the other test. In either case it did NOT look like your test showed a 30%+ error in ROC?

That and there are some errors in the real world data points you used in your graph, i.e.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">8000 11.50 12.50 lower by 1
6000 16.00 16.00 match
4000 20.75 22.50 lower by 1.75
2000 24.00 24.00 match
0000 25.90 25.90 match</pre>

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/1264/untitledrr6.gif

Which is missleading.. Seems you and Kurfurst have alot of trouble graphing numbers. That and as expected, you used the the real world data with the LOWER values.. No big suprise there! Also remember, when the Spit rad is closed, it is not really closed, like the 109's rads are. At the closed setting the Spit still allows air flow through the rad.

Where as the 109K-4 at real world climb speeds exceeds it's real world ROC by about 27% and if you use the in-game best climb speed it exceeds it's real world ROC by about 30% at low and mid altitudes. It is not until you get above ~12m that the in-game 109K-4 starts to climb worse than a real 109K-4

crazyivan1970
06-07-2007, 11:20 AM
Ok, new guy comes in and ask basic questions, why in the hell you are throwing charts at him. Speak like humans you freaking robots, will ya? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif If you going to turn this into another 109 vs Spit debucle and make me lock it, mark my words, this time i will suspend all the participants. Not joking by the way. Answer the simple question, can you stay on topic for once?

Tailbutcher
06-07-2007, 11:20 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Brain32
06-07-2007, 11:22 AM
If you use the real world climb speeds the statement is NOT wrong.
Yes that is correct, BCS in game is wrong for Spit25.

I have not done the in-game best climb speed test of the Spit 25lb yet, but I know you have and I seem to recall it improved the ROC by about 1 to 1.5m/s at low and mid altitudes.
I have not calculated % error but the chart is here:
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/1264/untitledrr6.gif (http://imageshack.us)
The RL data used is for a test where automatic rads were used, unlike the one you originally compared your test to which was with rads fully closed(not accusing you of anything, it's not hard to miss that) and that is not possible in game, and it was not done IRL, that was just a factory test. Also I would like to point out that I tested at 100% fuel.

Brain32
06-07-2007, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Ok, new guy comes in and ask basic questions, why in the hell you are throwing charts at him. Speak like humans you freaking robots, will ya? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif If you going to turn this into another 109 vs Spit debucle and make me lock it, mark my words, this time i will suspend all the participants. Not joking by the way. Answer the simple question, can you stay on topic for once?
You posted while I was writing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

crazyivan1970
06-07-2007, 11:24 AM
You are excused http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

This is cut off line, now start talking in human language http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

------------------------------------------------------------

LStarosta
06-07-2007, 11:28 AM
Graphs are the language of love, Ivan. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

crazyivan1970
06-07-2007, 11:31 AM
Maybe for you Starosta, not for me... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif You are too young to know what real language of love is http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Now tell me, what would be the best tactic while flying G/K models of BF109?

Manu-6S
06-07-2007, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Because Oleg's opinion of how it should be based off pilot accounts is different from you opinion. That is the sad thing about opinions! They are based off personal experiences and not numbers. There is no way to show a percent error between an opinion and the real thing because there is not real thing to compare to.

Wrong, they can be based on numbers: example if 10 account say the max dive speed is 700 and 10 say that it's 800 why should I take in account the first?

There are more accounts that say that elevator stiffness appeared over 600km/h (and lockup only over 750) then 450km/h... (oh I'm still haven't read that, if somebody can please post the link to that test...).

We are not speaking about A outturned B (no numbers): the thing is very different.

And it's different too from the account about the R2800 durability and P38's tail, and spit energy retention.

There are more numbers in bf109's elevator stiffness the in the other above.

Manu-6S
06-07-2007, 11:36 AM
Sorry Ivan, I was writing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

However I just responded to the post starter.

AKA_TAGERT
06-07-2007, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Manu-6S:
Wrong, Disagree 100%

When there is no real data to go by, you have to go by your personal experance.. With that said, I think it is safe to say that Oleg has more experance than you in this area.

Abbuzze
06-07-2007, 11:39 AM
For the elevator heavyness - This was a result of wrong trim, the 109 got noseheavy when it became faster, therefore a lot /to much force was needed to move the stick. If you set the trim the right way, you could use it even at high speeds.

Edit: Of course it was still heavier than in other planes, but you could move it.

AKA_TAGERT
06-07-2007, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Ok, new guy comes in and ask basic questions, why in the hell you are throwing charts at him. Speak like humans you freaking robots, will ya? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif If you going to turn this into another 109 vs Spit debucle and make me lock it, mark my words, this time i will suspend all the participants. Not joking by the way. Answer the simple question, can you stay on topic for once? Well.. just to be crystal.. Look at my first post..

It was spot on with the topic at hand!

No Spit this or that until the 'others' felt the need to talk about the Spit in a 09G/K thread! They just can not seem to help themselfs!

I simply pointed out to the orginal poster that the in-game 109K-4 climbs beter than it should at low and med altituds and that he should take advantge of that bug.

crazyivan1970
06-07-2007, 11:54 AM
We are crystal on that TAG, keep it the same way. I am sure you understand why.

DKoor
06-07-2007, 12:02 PM
But the sorry/cheerful (depending on the opinion) fact is that 109 doesn't face Spitfires alone... there are many others too.

And TBH many of them look more dangerous to the 109 than Spitfire.

Why I think that?

Simple. You can't run away from some of them!
Can become very, very bad since they have more fuel than you.

Online many thing depend on the pilot, and some crates that seem as -not so hot- become very dangerous in the hands of an expert.
Many would say here "so what? Spitfire is also more dangerous as pilot gets better.". That is certainly true.
But what I was referring to here is - speed.
Speed... one of the most important factors in the aerial combat.

Translated to the concrete case, Mustang Mk.III should be more lethal to 109 then the Spitfire! It can always run down the 109 and it can always run away from 109 when things get itchy!
Not to disregard is the nasty 109 "habit" to freeze on high speed, many times under the enemy fire.

Experienced messer drivers know this so they wont try to escape in dive or shallow dive from ac like P-47 or Mustang. They will simply get sprayed all over with .50s.
Instead their best chance is to drag American into a slower fight with more maneuvers... barrel rolls, scissors... trouble is, day by day less and less of them are falling for that trick!

Instead... they climb away in opposite way from the Me-109 direction, then come down on him with nasty .50 tune!

Manu-6S
06-07-2007, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Disagree 100%

When there is no real data to go by, you have to go by your personal experance.. With that said, I think it is safe to say that Oleg has more experance than you in this area.

Ok, I tried but you keep demostrating that you really don't care about the FMs if not for downgrade the Axis ones (strangly you pointed out that P47D is overmodelled but your first 3 VIP fixes (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/4681055265/p/6) needed are "upgrade P38" and 2 !!! against K4 - no more P47D eh?)

"When there is no real data to go"... you choose 300mph... Oleg is a human and more than once he (his staff) made wrong FMs (do you remember first MC205 roll rate).

Simply here he is wrong: 450, 750, 800 ARE numbers, ARE data.

Ok, I'm out, sorry again Ivan. This is the last time.

On Topic:

Bobby, many of the advices your mates posted here MUST be done with a good SA (Situation Awareness): to losing speed climbing works if the enemy is alone, but in war there are other planes that you don't see... and they will kill you... a slow climbing plane is my preferred kill.

So, before the dogfight starts, look areound you : if you are alone against more enemy (or a Spit co altitude) GO AWAY, make altitude in your own territory (protected by other friends) and return to combat.

SA is, IMO, 80% of the fight.

AKA_TAGERT
06-07-2007, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Manu-6S:
Ok, I tried but you keep demostrating that you really don't care about the FMs if not for downgrade the Axis ones
Hardly

In that I have done a test that shows the TEMPEST ROC is better than it should be and that it should be fixed, i.e.

http://airwarfare.com/TEMPEST ANALYSIS (http://airwarfare.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1970&sid=b54d14911c903af7dd07abf03650f4df)

Thus proving your theory that I am only pointing out better than real Axis planes is wrong!

Granted, the TEMPEST ROC is only ~9% better than it should be where as the 109K-4 is ~30% better than it should be. Which is why the 109K-4 gets more att, in that it is a much bigger offender than any other plane I have tested in 4.08


Originally posted by Manu-6S:
(strangly you pointed out that P47D is overmodelled but your first 3 VIP fixes (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/4681055265/p/6) needed are "upgrade P38" and 2 !!! against K4 - no more P47D eh?)
First things first, I don't think I ever said the P47D is over modeled! I have said many times that there is no real world data of a boosted P47D to compare to. That and the P47D appears to be Oleg's way of giving us P47M like performance without having to make new 3D external and cockpit art. Thus I would expect the performance to fall somewhere between the performance of a real P47M and the real world data of the boosted P47C!

Which it does!

So it is a little better than the real world boosted P47C in some areas and a little worse than the P47M in ALL areas. To me, that is fair! But given a choice I would prefer a real P47M that has real P47M performance in that it would be much better than the in-game P47D.

As for my pick of three, they are my worst offenders list! That is to say out of the testing I have done on 4.08 the two 109K-4 are the most OVER MODELED (read UBER) in ROC and the P38J is the most UNDER MODELED (read NOT UBER)


Originally posted by Manu-6S:
"When there is no real data to go"... you choose 300mph... Oleg is a human and more than once he (his staff) made wrong FMs (do you remember first MC205 roll rate).
Never said Oleg was a god! I simply pointed out the fact that he has more experance in this area than you. Thus I would take his opinion over yours when there is no real world data to go by.


Originally posted by Manu-6S:
Simply here he is wrong: 450, 750, 800 ARE numbers, ARE data.
That is your opinion, not his, case closed! Now if you have some real world data to counter that, I am all ears! But simply typing 450, 750, 800 does not impress me at all and Ill bet it impresses Oleg even less.

crazyivan1970
06-07-2007, 12:49 PM
Testing my patience arent we?

AKA_TAGERT
06-07-2007, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Testing my patience arent we? I thought your point was no graphs? Oh well, not going to try and 2nd guess, Ill just bow out of this thread. If anyone wants to know the real deal, simply PM me. Where as if 'FEELINGS' is all you need than this Spit bashing bunch is the way to go!

crazyivan1970
06-07-2007, 12:59 PM
Let me explain myself.
If you go and start your very own thread about performance, uber planes, etc... you can post 10,000 charts in there.. you do whatever you like, within the rules of course, please do so. it doesnt even have to be PM, go out in the open http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. Even tho... we both know how it will end up http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

This thread was started by a person new to IL-2, he came for your advice, ask for help, so help him. You guys literally de-railed this thread into FM discussion which is NOT helping him to develop right tactics in BF-109s. Do you see where i am going with this TAG? Everyone else? This is very simple: describe basics, post track for christ sake, show him something useful. You guys are veterans of IL-2, share something more useful then all those beaten to death subjects.

Kurfurst__
06-07-2007, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
You are too young to know what real language of love is http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Body language ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J5xs2ukksE

Sorry couldn't resist! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

faustnik
06-07-2007, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by BobbyBrinks:


09k versus SpitIXe (or any other popular spit variant) at around 2k meters.
We go head to head and merge and no dmg is dealt in the head on shootout...
What is the best option now for me in the 09k?

Ive tried a number of different things. Turning with the spit obviously always results in disaster. going vertical and trying to loop with it seems to be the best choice if i have to stay and fight, but that usually is lacking too. Running straight through and extending works fine, but all to often the spit will turn and start running me down (and then im in an even worse situation, because now its completely behind me).

The only strategy that seems to work semi decently is when it gets behind me to try and force an overshoot (since if i try and run they seem to catch me). Im pretty decent at doing this, but experienced pilots are extremely difficult to force into an overshoot. And letting someone get behind you is in general a pretty crappy strategy. Any ideas on things i could try after the merge? or is the answer ctrl+E and respawn back in as a fw-190 or spit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Well, I can relate to your issues. Normally, when I have flown blue, it is always in an Fw190. When I started flying a Bf109 on occasion, I had real trouble with the lousy high speed elevators. With CrazyIvans instruction, I started to improve somewhat (I'm still a 109 n00b). Here are some things I figured out.


1. You can get slow. The 109 works better under 450kph.

2. You can turn hard. The lousy elevators of the 109 actually prevent blackout. You can't pull enough Gs to black out like a 190 or Spitfire. At low speed the slats keep you stable in a hard turn.

3. Use a lot of rudder. You can use way more rudder with a 109 than you can in an Fw190 or P-39 without danger of entering a spin.

4. Master the spiral climb. I screw it up most of time but, the real 109 guys are great at this.

It's really the opposite of the Fw190. In the 190 I never want to turn hard, at all, I keep speed over 450kph (normally much higher) and use small rudder inputs.

Good luck! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Zoom2136
06-07-2007, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by tigertalon:
Hey BobbyBrinks, wellcome to the forums. U poor sap u don't know what you got urself into! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif j/k

From your initial post it seems you are not using the MW50 water methanol boost. Make sure you chop throttle low before engaging it, or you can ruin your engine. There is no way a spit IX can catch any late war 109s at any alt (apart from stratosphere) in a straight run if you use MW50. 109 should be some 50kph faster.


If at high alt just make sure you don't have a HF spit on your tail as he WILL catch you... above 7000m... and he as the luxury of climbing up to 12000m and thus leave you in the dust if thing go sure for him...

Zoom2136
06-07-2007, 02:07 PM
And if you are co-E with a spit (with 300-500m seperation) please do try to climb away... as he as to pull in a more gentle climb to cut off your climb with a string of 20mm...

IMHO... if you are facing a capable spit pilot... [and this should be obvious from the start (he will use the vertical (hi/low yo-yos) and not just flat turns.... or loops...] your only viable option is to RUN...

I always smile when I see a 109 turn and try to engage me by himself... 1 vs. 1 to odds are in the spit favor if you are co-E...

If you have an E advantage (speed or altitude) use it to set up a B&Z... but as soon as the table start to equilize... you should RUN...

Low speed manoevers work with n00bs... don't try that **** with experience spit drivers you will get yourself KILLED...

So basically... speed/alt advantage stay and fight... if not RUN

Hope this help...

Kurfurst__
06-07-2007, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
4. Master the spiral climb. I screw it up most of time but, the real 109 guys are great at this.

I usually did it by simply banking about 45 degrees, and applyig slight rudder in the same direction... no elevator at all not to bleed any E, the plane will still turn nicely and present a moderately difficult deflection shot... just be sure to extend out of his gun envelope (600m+) before starting the climb.

Ie say you have a merge, in a late 109. Turning is generally stupid because it makes you target and it's risky in any case. Cowardly tactics will win the day. So, extend a bit first, or alternatively climb to the 1500-4000m region's lower range, and then extend. The Spit will loose a lot of power there because of it's supercharger design and will be at disadvantage. The +25 Spit is loosing power very quickly with altitude anyway, like Russian fighters.

When you are sure you're out of guns range (but not to far, he can make a shortcut inside the turn otherwise!), begin the gentle spiral climb as described. Bank 45, no elevator, small rudder, let the plane turn itself. Manage your radiators, don't let the engine overheat, abuse it a bit if needed. Using the rudder also means you can keep an eye on the Spit behind if he decides to take a chance at long range deflection shooting... gently evade with a small change in curse, then return to curse. He'll just waste ammo. Also note IRL the Spit and 109's propeller turned the opposite way, which meant one turned better to the right, the other to the left, I am not sure how much is it present in the sim, but always turn towards what you plane prefers as it will put him at the same time in disadvantage.

Hard/slow spiral climbs favour the Spit because of it's lower stall speed. Instead, climb at a bit higher speed. It generally favours the 109 since it's faster. Ie. if the 109 tops out at 590 and the Spit at 540, he will have 0 thrust left for climb at 540 kph...

Two scenerios may be possible - save the fact that he has been already being shot down by another friendly while being fixated on you.. He tries to shoot you down in the climb, which means he will burn E and your E advantage will grow and grow. The only thing to do is to execute a ruthless energy fight on him, keeping in the vertical, using your altitude advantage to stay invincible. The other is that he will try to climb with you. As noted above, he just can't because the Spit will loose power in a certain region. If that's not enough to gain the upper hand, you will end up at around 6000 meter altitude. Stay there. The Spit should be around 50-60-70 km/h slower than you in a G-10/G-6AS/K-4 already.. which means if you start the energy stuff on him, he will stand no chance.. remember, if the 109 has a top speed of 710 at 6000m and the Spit 650, it means at a speed of 650 the Spit has ZERO excess thrust available for manouvering, the 109 still plenty... 5-600 HP in fact vs. ZERO. At this point he will either fall to a properly executed E fight in the 400 mph TAS region with gentle manouvers, or even more likely he will be running low on fuel already, or get bored with you and try to dive away... dive on him fire, pull up gently, skyrocket back to altitude... rinse and repeat.

In a proper use of your strenght (you're MUCH faster esp. at altitude and climb at least as good as him at any altitude) he really has no chance.. I've seen a proper E-fight vs. Spits in WWOL... poor bugger never stands a chance if executed properly, but it's Art on it's own right. Takes a lot of precision and discipline.

Try to find that SOW:BOB footage where a AI 109E did that to a human Spit I.. I was very impressed by that.

raaaid
06-07-2007, 02:59 PM
the heaviness of elevator doesnt matter using trim on a slider, i use mouse wheel for elevator trim
the 109 is superior to spit on scissors

everytime i cross a spit heads on i change sense of circle

beating a spit on a 109 is nice because it is much worse plane

BobbyBrinks
06-07-2007, 03:19 PM
First off, thanks for all the help in answering my questions. Alot of the stuff I will definately be testing out, and everyones input is very much appreciated.

To clarify some things, yes normally, myself and a wingman fly on the 334th dm type server. More often that not i run into spit25lbs on that server, which is what sparked my question. I do however really enjoy flying with all the toggles on and have recently been flying "spits vs 09s" and "warclouds." (ironically, my wingman does not like full realism, so i tend to fly alone in the servers where having a wingman would be the most beneficial, hence the 1v1 question). Hope to see you all there sometime http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Also kurfurst, i flew almost 5 full campaigns with the RAF in WWiiO before switching over to il2 (wwiio is shrinking in my opinion, so i decided to unsub). I flew under the name bobbybrk, and ive seen that dragging climb a number of times. Id like to think that i dont fall for it now, but it is a very powerful manuever and im sure i got wtfp4wned by it a few times. However it only seemed to only really shine during the tier1 (now tier2) planes, as the 09f4 vs Vb matchup seemed to favor the 09 in the shallow climbs. When flying a IXc, i have no real memory of anyone attempting this move against me however (as there is no real reason for a 190 to attempt it, and the 09f4s usually would attempt to turn fight if cornered).

Lol i got curious, so i looked up my info (http://events.wwiionline.com/scripts/services/persona/journal.jsp?pid=506442). What name did you fly under (im assuming you flew LW, i wonder if we ever dueled? i believe i flew around campaigns 26-30ish.)

Once again, any other suggestiosn about my 09 duel vs the spit are always appreciated. And thanks for all the help already. Cheers-

faustnik
06-07-2007, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by BobbyBrinks:
More often that not i run into spit25lbs on that server, which is what sparked my question.

Oh, in that case, just grab a Dora and fly as fast as you possibly can. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Tailbutcher
06-07-2007, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by BobbyBrinks:
Im relatively new to the game, though i have been flying sims off and on for a while. I consider myself a pretty decent dogfighter and ive definitely mastered the basics. Recently though, I've been trying the 09 out online, and really been struggling against the spit9. When i surpise one or have an alt advantage i seem to fare extremely well, im not worried about that at all.

however, if i seem to struggle tactically agiansts spits that i start neutral with. Heres the situation that id like to focus on....

09k versus SpitIXe (or any other popular spit variant) at around 2k meters.
We go head to head and merge and no dmg is dealt in the head on shootout...
What is the best option now for me in the 09k?

Ive tried a number of different things. Turning with the spit obviously always results in disaster. going vertical and trying to loop with it seems to be the best choice if i have to stay and fight, but that usually is lacking too. Running straight through and extending works fine, but all to often the spit will turn and start running me down (and then im in an even worse situation, because now its completely behind me).

The only strategy that seems to work semi decently is when it gets behind me to try and force an overshoot (since if i try and run they seem to catch me). Im pretty decent at doing this, but experienced pilots are extremely difficult to force into an overshoot. And letting someone get behind you is in general a pretty crappy strategy. Any ideas on things i could try after the merge? or is the answer ctrl+E and respawn back in as a fw-190 or spit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If, you see a Spitfire Flown By Tagert, slow down and don't climb, or run away,that way he can get a kill.....please. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

crazyivan1970
06-07-2007, 03:34 PM
I wouldnt go that far by saying that 109 is much worse then Spit raaid. They both have pluses and minuses, overall pretty equal to me. Whoever uses his plane to its best abilities will win. Also, i wouldnt go into scissors fight with clipped wing Spitfire in any 109s. Stall fight rather, if i am pinned to the corner, but not scissors.

I`ll name few advantages of 109 that might help if you are in disadvantage...

1) Spiral climb - preferred to the left.
2) Split-S low level with landing flaps at 300km/h, you can do it pretty low. Quiet a few planes will play lawndart on you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.
3) Wide roll, makes shooting really hard for opponent and usually makes him overshoot.
4) Snap turn to the left with full rudder, nose down - basically wingover 180 deg turn with following wide roll towards the top.

Keep in mind that things that will save you or give you an advantage on full switch servers will only get you in trouble on relaxed ones. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif As mentioned before, situation awareness and who saw who first is absoulte major part in success. All that goes away if external views, icons, PL, etc are on. Spiral climb will not really save you on open view server, because deflection shooting is not a problem there... So consider things like that. Your tactics are really relying on settings too.

Kurfurst__
06-07-2007, 03:35 PM
Salute bobbybrk! Major Isehun here from inside ze German steel coffins, LOL.

LOL, I wasn't much into planes in WW2OL, don't think I've ever made it to rank 3.. maybe shot down 3 planes in total there, LOL. Probably shot more with the Pz III's main gun. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Though I remember seeing a few cool LW pilot's vids doing the trick, and recalling how the 110C would do wonders vs my puny Hurricane if it stayed in the vertical.. real eye opener that!

Not much time for WW2OL nowadays, you have to be a time millionaire for that.. and I wait for the engine overhaul until I return.

S!

AKA_TAGERT
06-07-2007, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Let me explain myself.
If you go and start your very own thread about performance, uber planes, etc... you can post 10,000 charts in there.. you do whatever you like, within the rules of course, please do so. it doesnt even have to be PM, go out in the open http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.
Ah, ok, thanks for clearing that up!


Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Even tho... we both know how it will end up http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Well.. That can be said about any and all posts here.. Not just performance threads with real world data and documented testing (track files and plots) to support the claims within (i.e. hours of work shot to he11)! A well documented test gets as much flack from fainbois as a post where someone makes a claim based on nothing but a 'FEELING' (i.e. 1 mins worth of work shot to he11).


Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
This thread was started by a person new to IL-2, he came for your advice, ask for help, so help him.
Which I did in my first post


Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
You guys literally de-railed this thread into FM discussion which is NOT helping him to develop right tactics in BF-109s.
Well IMHO it does help your tatics to know your planes strengths and weaknesses.. At least WWII pilots thought so.


Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Do you see where i am going with this TAG? Everyone else?
Sort of..

But..

Allow me to fix it for yah..

In that I *think* you did NOT mean to say 109 FM topics are NOT helpful in a 109 tactics topic?

I think you meant to say that FM debates between the Spit 25 and 109 within a 109 tactics topic is NOT helpful!

To which I agree!

Even thought I did manage to do just that, in that I fell for it when the Spit haters aka 109 fanbois showed up.. Which is not meant as an excuse, just an observation that prior to them baiting me in I was on topic.


Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
This is very simple: describe basics, post track for christ sake, show him something useful. You guys are veterans of IL-2, share something more useful then all those beaten to death subjects.
Roger that! And please forgive me my weakness.. I try to get out.. and they pull me back in! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

AKA_TAGERT
06-07-2007, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by Tailbutcher:
If, you see a Spitfire Flown By Tagert, slow down and don't climb, or run away,that way he can get a kill.....please. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif Poor Nancy

stalkervision
06-07-2007, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by BobbyBrinks:
Im relatively new to the game, though i have been flying sims off and on for a while. I consider myself a pretty decent dogfighter and ive definitely mastered the basics. Recently though, I've been trying the 09 out online, and really been struggling against the spit9. When i surpise one or have an alt advantage i seem to fare extremely well, im not worried about that at all.

however, if i seem to struggle tactically agiansts spits that i start neutral with. Heres the situation that id like to focus on....

09k versus SpitIXe (or any other popular spit variant) at around 2k meters.
We go head to head and merge and no dmg is dealt in the head on shootout...
What is the best option now for me in the 09k?

Ive tried a number of different things. Turning with the spit obviously always results in disaster. going vertical and trying to loop with it seems to be the best choice if i have to stay and fight, but that usually is lacking too. Running straight through and extending works fine, but all to often the spit will turn and start running me down (and then im in an even worse situation, because now its completely behind me).

The only strategy that seems to work semi decently is when it gets behind me to try and force an overshoot (since if i try and run they seem to catch me). Im pretty decent at doing this, but experienced pilots are extremely difficult to force into an overshoot. And letting someone get behind you is in general a pretty crappy strategy. Any ideas on things i could try after the merge? or is the answer ctrl+E and respawn back in as a fw-190 or spit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

2k meters...! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

first CHEAT! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

well it's not really cheating.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

If we're talking AT the merge Try.."The Early Turn" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Takes excellent timing... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Start to turn your aircraft HARD just as your enemy gets into gun range. This will only afford him a "snap shot" at you and you will soon be right behind him. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

timing is critical because you do it TOO SOON and he will be on YOUR TAIL! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kejotikk
06-07-2007, 04:00 PM
Sorry mate, i edited your thread because it will get UGLY before you know it.

Ivan.