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View Full Version : MC.205 in Luftwaffe service?



cbazza
02-03-2006, 01:28 PM
Looking into the history of this aircraft i constantly came across references to the Luftwaffe equipping itself with "One Gruppe" of MC.205s yet there is no more information to be found as to the units number/name or where it fought.

Was looking forward to making some historical Luftwaffe Veltro missions but i seem to have drawn a blank

Can any of our Italian/Luftwaffe experts shed any light?

Many thanks

faustnik
02-03-2006, 01:53 PM
MC.205s were flown by JG77 in Italy 1943. They were appropriated from the Italians after the armistice was signed. They were flown by JG77 for only a short time.

Tooz_69GIAP
02-03-2006, 02:15 PM
After the armistace, the Luftwaffe demanded that the remainder of the Italian aircraft and aircrew who stayed on the Axis side be absorbed into the Luftwaffe. They refused, to a man, and at one point, a large airbase where some of the Italian squadrons were based were surrounded by SS units, while the Italians threatened to burn their aircraft.

Eventually, the Luftwaffe gave way and allowed the ANR to fly as Italians, rather than as part of the German forces.

The Italians who fled south to the Allies after the armistace, after intially being ignored as an offensive unit (I think 4 squadrons, or so, of different types of aircraft formed themselves into one air group, and without any orders, or any outside influence began attacks on German convoys, transportation, etc), were suffering a similar fate, with the Allies threatening to either disband or absorb them into existing US/RAF units. Eventually, the Allies desided to let the Italians fly as an ally, but they were transferred to the Balkans theatre, apparently to avoid Italians fighting Italians.

Grey_Mouser67
02-03-2006, 03:33 PM
So, did any of the Italians fly the Mc205 for the allied side after capitulation?

I was thinking that pilots flew on both sides, but I'm not sure if the Mc205 was used on both sides.

faustnik
02-03-2006, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:
So, did any of the Italians fly the Mc205 for the allied side after capitulation?

I was thinking that pilots flew on both sides, but I'm not sure if the Mc205 was used on both sides.

Yes, they did. I have pics at home but, they have copyright. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Abraxa
02-03-2006, 04:27 PM
Yes the 205 flew both with the ANR (axis) and with the ICAF (Italian Cobelligerant Air Forces).
Since the factories were on the North, the ICAF could use only some surviving 205s of the Regia Aeronautica, while the ANR was also equipped with new built 205s and G55 (and 109s G6, G10, G14 and K4 later).
The few 205 delivered to the Germans after the Armistice (8th of September 1943) were given back to the Italians (ANR) after that Mussolini was liberated and once that he created a new Northern Italian goverment, loyal to the Germans, with its own indipendent army and air forces.

For the picts, here's an example taken from the good pages made by the friends of the 51?

205s of the ANR
http://www.eaf51.org/Photo_16_ANR_planes.htm

205s of the ICAF
http://www.eaf51.org/Photo_02_51_ICAF_%20Macchi.htm

Rjel
02-03-2006, 04:43 PM
The Mc.202 and Mc.205, IMO, are the best looking Italian fighters and maybe the prettiest fighters to come out of WWII. I can't wait to fly them FB/PF. Are there any still flyable anywhere?

Abraxa
02-03-2006, 04:47 PM
a Veltro (now on display) was still flying till few years ago http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.tuttala.it/imgs/Electric_Combat/Macchi202/macchi2.jpg

RAF23-Shrike
02-03-2006, 08:37 PM
Abraxa, good to see you still around, happy for you that you can put away the la5 that you was so deadly in all those years ago, and get yourself an Italian job S~ all the best.

http://raf23sqn.dogfighters.net/

HotelBushranger
02-03-2006, 08:53 PM
Man that 205 is a beauty http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

ElAurens
02-03-2006, 09:21 PM
Will there be an option for ICAF skins as well?

269GA-Veltro
02-04-2006, 03:18 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
Will there be an option for ICAF skins as well?

Later probably we'll have also some C.205 ICAF (http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif) skins.
..later... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

This one for me is really a beauty: C.205 A.N.R. with the Luftwaffe colors (Splinter skin). It seems a White Shark.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif


http://www.eaf51.org/New_Web/IMMAGINI/Macchi/7.jpg

Abraxa
02-04-2006, 03:23 AM
Originally posted by RAF23-Shrike:
Abraxa, good to see you still around, happy for you that you can put away the la5 that you was so deadly in all those years ago, and get yourself an Italian job S~ all the best.

http://raf23sqn.dogfighters.net/

hey! my old friend Shrike! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Nice to see you around http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
But you don't remember exactly. I was always in a 109, not in a La5 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Abraxa
02-04-2006, 03:24 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
Will there be an option for ICAF skins as well?

nope, the only option is for the Regia Aeronautica, but I'm skinnin both ANR and (later) ICAF.

ElAurens
02-04-2006, 08:59 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Veltro, 23 is the number I have used on everything I run (from race cars to flight sims) since I was a child. Because of this...
http://www.professormotor.com/images/rcr08_t.jpg
Ferrari's 1967 win at the 24 Hours Of Daytona.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Thanks Abraxa. I just want to be able to fly her in as many areas as possible!

Ciao.

BelaLvgosi
02-04-2006, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Veltro, 23 is the number I have used on everything I run (from race cars to flight sims) since I was a child. Because of this...
http://www.professormotor.com/images/rcr08_t.jpg
Ferrari's 1967 win at the 24 Hours Of Daytona.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Thanks Abraxa. I just want to be able to fly her in as many areas as possible!

Ciao.

On a side note:

Hah, I always use 23 for almost everything too, by seeing this thread, I went to check my 1:48 330 p4 model (daytona 67') but it's the number 24, 2nd place.

SUPERAEREO
02-05-2006, 02:19 AM
Just to be precise: technically speaking the Italian forces fighting on the Allies' side were never given full ally status but were instead considered co-belligerent.

The episode mentioned by Tooz took place in August 1944 when the Germans tried to disband the ANR (Mussolini's air force in the North of the country) to absorb it into the LW (operation Phoenix). The German confiscated all planes and facilities but faced with opposition from the Italians had to go back on their decision and help reconstitute the ANR instead.


S!

p1ngu666
02-05-2006, 05:10 AM
my model is 22, hardtop version.

with your open top ones your gonna get all the girls, damn ya!

BelaLvgosi
02-05-2006, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
my model is 22, hardtop version.

with your open top ones your gonna get all the girls, damn ya!

Mine is a hardtop too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

269GA-Veltro
02-06-2006, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Veltro, 23 is the number I have used on everything I run (from race cars to flight sims) since I was a child.

23 is also the number of my fighter group, when i was in the italian AF for the military service. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Buzzsaw-
02-07-2006, 09:08 AM
Salute

I am very happy to see that we are finally getting some Italian aircraft, which we can use in any number of situations. (East Front, Italian and Hungarian, Desert, Med, Greece, etc.)

There is no question that the Macchis are very sexy looking aircraft, they have that certain something which all Italian mechanical designs seem to have. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

However, the long nose on the MC-202 and 205 which gives the aircraft a very aggressive, fastback type of look, is in fact, a detriment in combat, as it severely restricted the ability of the pilot to take deflection shots. The view over the nose should be very poor in the Macchi 202 and 205. The C-200 should not have this same problem.

As far as the performance of the Macchis is concerned, from pilot reports I have read, or heard first hand, the Macchi C-200's were very maneuvrable, turning something like a Hurricane, with similar speeds at low altitudes. The Macchi 202's were somewhere between a P-40 and Spitfire V in their turn ability. They gave the P-40 pilots a lot of problems, as they were essentially as fast, but turned better. They would be superior to the Hurricane, being faster and climbing better, although being outturned. The big problem with the 200's and 202's is that their armament was very weak. Two 12.7's and two LMG's are not very much. Although the 12.7 Italian air to air round was explosive, it was not particularly effective.

The C-205 had much more effective armament, with the dual MG 151/20mm's, so essentially would be very similar to an IAR-81C in its ability to inflict damage.

The C-205 was heavier than the the C-202, with the DB-605 instead of the DB-601, so its turn ability was also degraded compared to the C-202, similar to the difference between the 109F4 and 109G6. It should still outturn the P-51's and P-47's, but would undoubtably have a serious problem with the Spitfire VIII, which was faster and turned better.

Cheers Buzzsaw

269GA-Veltro
02-07-2006, 11:04 AM
Good post!

What i'm waiting for is the Macchi's DM. They had a very strong structure thank to their high quality "manufactory". A low number production, but an high quality production...good for the museums and racings.....not for the war. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

BTW, they were very strong fighters, first of all the C.200. It was able to take a great number of bullets.
C.205 could reach diving very high speed.

We'll see...

Stigler_9_JG52
02-07-2006, 10:43 PM
Macchis are not bad, the 200 excepted. That one is not flattered by a comparison to a Hurricane. The ones I've v-flown were squirrely as all hell in the roll axis, and the view out of them was execreble. I'd rather stick with a G-50 (which is what they replaced).

269GA-Veltro
02-08-2006, 05:07 AM
Some feedbacks about the Veltro. Is a good (interesting) reference for the C.205, but take it carefully....it couldn't outturn a Mark IX.

http://www.eaf51.org/New_Web/Documenti/Storia/PresentazioneMC205-Finale.pdf

I did this PDF some time ago for the first C.205 model (wrong), we sent to Oleg.