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View Full Version : Do you think Zero will outturn I-16 or I-153?



XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 09:47 PM
From all the sims that i use to play before... it appears to me that Zero was da king of the turnfight... Do you think current kings of turnfight (early russian birds) will have to step down with arrival of Zero?
On the other hand... Frank...what would it be? Japanize La5fn?

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 09:47 PM
From all the sims that i use to play before... it appears to me that Zero was da king of the turnfight... Do you think current kings of turnfight (early russian birds) will have to step down with arrival of Zero?
On the other hand... Frank...what would it be? Japanize La5fn?

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 09:49 PM
IMO I don't think the Zero will outturn these fighters.

Can anyone tell me why the zero could only turn in one direction ?

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XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 09:51 PM
Fenna wrote:
- IMO I don't think the Zero will outturn these
- fighters.
-
- Can anyone tell me why the zero could only turn in
- one direction ? (EDIT: "faster then the other")
-

Because of engine torque. It was a phenomenan allready known in WWI.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

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XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 09:52 PM
around 280 kmh, Zero is unbeatable. I got a book back in BG about it, i think its weight was some 2500 in the heaviest version, with the 22 sq meters

"An attack against a unit of Flying Fortresses was something like controlled suicide...Sometimes 50, Sometimes 80 machine guns were firing at you... You attempted to close you eyes & continue to fire, Frightened to death, Frightened to death."

Oberst Johannes Steinhoff (176 kills)


http://www.jg54greenhearts.com/Lang.htm

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1C Ankanor, Defender Of The Truth

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 09:55 PM
I don't think it will outturn the little birds. I do think it will outturn the canopy birds.



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XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 10:04 PM
Zero won't outturn I-153, but will outturn I-16. I-16 had a poor sustained turn compared to its wing loading, because the wings had a very poor aspect ratio.

Zero and I-153 will make an interesting fight. I-153 outturns and outclimbs Zero, but Zero is 100kmh faster, so actually you'll have to B&Z with Zero/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


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Message Edited on 06/13/0304:11PM by Huckebein_FW

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 10:06 PM
Yep, Huck is 100% right.

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'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

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XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 10:08 PM
Interesting...what about P-40 (Say explosion bug is fixed in upcoming patch)? Will she handle Zero with ease?

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 10:12 PM
remember what Ben affleck said in "PH": do not turn with them!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"An attack against a unit of Flying Fortresses was something like controlled suicide...Sometimes 50, Sometimes 80 machine guns were firing at you... You attempted to close you eyes & continue to fire, Frightened to death, Frightened to death."

Oberst Johannes Steinhoff (176 kills)


http://www.jg54greenhearts.com/Lang.htm

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1C Ankanor, Defender Of The Truth

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 10:13 PM
crazyivan1970 wrote:
- Interesting...what about P-40 (Say explosion bug is
- fixed in upcoming patch)? Will she handle Zero with
- ease?


Not if you try to turn with it. BnZ all the way with P-40 against the Zero. The only way you'll turn better than the Zero in the P-40 is if you force the Zero to ramp up his speed then you'll have a turning, or perhaps more accuratly, a manouvering advantage over him.

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 10:13 PM
if P-40 has altitude advantage, why not? B&Z

"An attack against a unit of Flying Fortresses was something like controlled suicide...Sometimes 50, Sometimes 80 machine guns were firing at you... You attempted to close you eyes & continue to fire, Frightened to death, Frightened to death."

Oberst Johannes Steinhoff (176 kills)


http://www.jg54greenhearts.com/Lang.htm

http://home.wanadoo.nl/wana.mail1/Op****/WurgerwhinerLogo.jpg



1C Ankanor, Defender Of The Truth

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 10:15 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- Zero won't outturn I-153, but will outturn I-16.
- I-16 had a poor sustained turn compared to its wing
- loading, because the wings had a very poor aspect
- ratio.
-
- Zero and I-153 will make an interesting fight. I-153
- outturns and outclimbs Zero, but Zero is 100kmh
- faster, so actually you'll have to B&Z with Zero/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
-
-
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-
- Message Edited on 06/13/03 04:11PM by
- Huckebein_FW

by the way it will not be a good idea. if the Zero is modeled right, this version(A6M3) has allowed dive speed of 657kmh. how much is for the slow I-153?

"An attack against a unit of Flying Fortresses was something like controlled suicide...Sometimes 50, Sometimes 80 machine guns were firing at you... You attempted to close you eyes & continue to fire, Frightened to death, Frightened to death."

Oberst Johannes Steinhoff (176 kills)


http://www.jg54greenhearts.com/Lang.htm

http://home.wanadoo.nl/wana.mail1/Op****/WurgerwhinerLogo.jpg



1C Ankanor, Defender Of The Truth

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 10:33 PM
That model is clearly a A6M2 Model 21. The A6M3 Model 32 - you mentioned had clipped wings and modified air intake layout that move from chin position to 180? up position. That max.speed limit of 410mph was for the Model 52 after thicken of the skin./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

http://www.il2sturmovik.de/ss_fb_dev/02-12/A-6M-2_1.jpg


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Kimura

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 10:33 PM
Ankanor wrote:
-
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
-- Zero won't outturn I-153, but will outturn I-16.
-- I-16 had a poor sustained turn compared to its wing
-- loading, because the wings had a very poor aspect
-- ratio.
--
-- Zero and I-153 will make an interesting fight. I-153
-- outturns and outclimbs Zero, but Zero is 100kmh
-- faster, so actually you'll have to B&Z with Zero


-
- by the way it will not be a good idea. if the Zero
- is modeled right, this version(A6M3) has allowed
- dive speed of 657kmh. how much is for the slow
- I-153?


657kmh IAS for Zero is more than enough. Russian planes had equally low dive limit speeds. La-5FN had 650kmh IAS. Of course that is not modelled yet.

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Message Edited on 06/13/0304:34PM by Huckebein_FW

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 10:42 PM
What was the maximum divign speed for P-40?
By the way, Kozhedub menitoned that he was taking his LA5-FN above 700km/h in the dive, when needed of course.

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 10:44 PM
I am not talking about IAS, but TAS/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

last model A6M52c had its dive speed raised up to 741kmh

"An attack against a unit of Flying Fortresses was something like controlled suicide...Sometimes 50, Sometimes 80 machine guns were firing at you... You attempted to close you eyes & continue to fire, Frightened to death, Frightened to death."

Oberst Johannes Steinhoff (176 kills)


http://www.jg54greenhearts.com/Lang.htm

http://home.wanadoo.nl/wana.mail1/Op****/WurgerwhinerLogo.jpg



1C Ankanor, Defender Of The Truth

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 10:44 PM
Any clues what the prop pitch was like ? Ie was the zero a constant speed prop or an automatic type. I presume no ammo load dial like on the LW types ?

Someone is looking forward to flying it had you gathered !

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 10:50 PM
FlankerK wrote:
- Any clues what the prop pitch was like ? Ie was the
- zero a constant speed prop or an automatic type. I
- presume no ammo load dial like on the LW types ?
-
- Someone is looking forward to flying it had you
- gathered !
-

Constant speed prop, and no ammo counter. Armament is very much like 109E BTW, has cannons, but with few rounds (early version at least)

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'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 11:09 PM
Not sure about the Zero, but the Ki84 will be a terror.

If properly modeled it will own the DF servers.

BE SURE!

<center><FONT color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40home.gif
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XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 11:14 PM
Anyone ever tried "Fighter Ace" 2.0-2.5? Frank with 30mm`s literally owned DF servers lol...ya, i remember that.

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 11:16 PM
anyway, that model is neither a Model 52, Model 52 HEI nor a Model 32. So you can't expect high diving speeds.

http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/262_01011.jpg


Kimura



Message Edited on 06/13/0311:23PM by KIMURA

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 11:19 PM
ElAurens wrote:
- Not sure about the Zero, but the Ki84 will be a
- terror.
-
- If properly modeled it will own the DF servers.
-
- BE SURE!

Isn't that great...a Pacific Theatre a/c will dominate the LW & VVS on the Eastern Front! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif




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XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 11:27 PM
What was so special about Ki84 that would make him a monster? I mean true facts? Was it faster then K-4? Or more agile then Yak3? I`m all ears /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 11:31 PM
crazyivan1970 wrote:
- What was so special about Ki84 that would make him a
- monster? I mean true facts? Was it faster then K-4?
- Or more agile then Yak3? I`m all ears /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- Regards,
- VFC*Crazyivan
-


It`s a Jap La-7, if not better, simple as that... great speed (680kph), hard hitting cannon armament, great manouveribilty, climb rate etc. Great visibility. And altitude performance ain`t bad either.



Now of course if you want to compare to a (bug-free...) K-4, it losses hands down. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 11:37 PM
By Sept 43 the new Ki-84 was flown in mock combat with its brother the Ki-44 and a Fw190A-5 that had arrived Japan erlier. The test pilot Maj. Y.Kuroe a former Shoki pilot rqted the Ki-84 higher than both competitive a/c in maneuverability but reported some concerns that the 190 had advantage in dive speeds and level topspeed.

Topspeed ca.630kph but not higher than that. The La-7 is surely faster.

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Kimura



Message Edited on 06/13/0311:39PM by KIMURA

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 11:46 PM
So was it 630km/h or 680? On what alt?

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 12:23 AM
crazyivan1970 wrote:
- So was it 630km/h or 680? On what alt?
-


630kmh for Ki-84. Peformance wise it was similar to Bf-109F except the better turn. Very much obsolete for a land based plane even in '42 and it appeared first in '44. Not much of an opposition in Pacific for Americans since it was the best japanese fighter to see production.

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XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 12:34 AM
I was doing some research into Pacfic Area Battles prior to creating Coops from FB Maps for when the Zero was released guys.
Interesting stuff, apparently the Zero had extremly long range for a fighter its size.( Handy for carrier ops )
The first Zeros tested in Combat in China, swept the opposition from the skys, and the Co of the Flying Tigers in China sent a Warning to the American Military about this new Japanese fighter en countered in China.
This Warning was ignored,

Spitfires and Hurricanes found themselves in all sorts of trouble when they first encountered the Zero in the South Pacific and near Ceylon.
Spit and Hurri pilots had gotton used to having it over the Luftwaffe, in Europe, but in the South Pacific they encountered an enemy fighter that could out turn them, and was all over them, a complete revision of tactics required apparently.
Part of the problem was these early Zeros where flown by Pilots that already had combat experience in China as well.
Still researching.

XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 12:39 AM
crazyivan1970 wrote:
- So was it 630km/h or 680? On what alt?

Ki-84 Experm. 624kph@6000m
Ki-84A 624kph@6500m
Ki-84B 624kph@6500m
Ki-106 "Wooden Hayate" 620kph@8000m
Ki-113 "Steel Hayate" 620kph@6000m

climb rate to 5000m for the Ki-84A 5'54", Ki-84B 6'26" to the same hight. Ki-106 "Wooden Hayate" 5'00" to 5000m.


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Kimura







Message Edited on 06/14/0312:44AM by KIMURA

XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 12:42 AM
Thanks for info guys! So, looks like there are plenty of planes in FB that might deal with Ki84...not a monster after all LOL.

V!

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 12:59 AM
My reference books are 50-50 on speed.Half say 387mph and the other half say 430mph(faster than a mustang).I read somewhere(can't remember where) that the difference was caused by the fuel.With japanese fuel 387mph and with US fuel,with much higher octane 430mph.I don't know how much of a "killer" a frank would be.But there are numerous accounts of georges taking on multiple enemies and coming out on top.

XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 03:14 AM
crazyivan1970 wrote:
- What was the maximum divign speed for P-40?

485 mph IAS

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_uimages/sigwings.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 03:16 AM
turenne wrote:
- My reference books are 50-50 on speed.Half say
- 387mph and the other half say 430mph(faster than a
- mustang).I read somewhere(can't remember where) that
- the difference was caused by the fuel.With japanese
- fuel 387mph and with US fuel,with much higher octane
- 430mph.I don't know how much of a "killer" a frank
- would be.But there are numerous accounts of georges
- taking on multiple enemies and coming out on top.
-
-

The 430mph speed was achieved during a test in Pennsylvania, USA, in 1947.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_uimages/sigwings.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 03:38 AM
TaZ_Attack wrote:
-- Isn't that great...a Pacific Theatre a/c will
- dominate the LW & VVS on the Eastern Front

Um Taz, this ISN"T the Eastern front. it is a GAME where people fly whatever plane they like in most DF servers, and in that context the Ki84 will be, as I said, a TERROR.

Or are you insuating that the Japanese were inferior?

<center><FONT color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40home.gif
</img>.
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--Amelia Earhart--

XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 03:55 AM
ElAurens wrote:
- TaZ_Attack wrote:
--- Isn't that great...a Pacific Theatre a/c will
-- dominate the LW & VVS on the Eastern Front
-
- Um Taz, this ISN"T the Eastern front. it is a GAME
- where people fly whatever plane they like in most DF
- servers, and in that context the Ki84 will be, as I
- said, a TERROR.
-
- Or are you insuating that the Japanese were
- inferior?


Don't know about TAZ, but I can say it very clearly: japanese late war planes were inferior to their contemporaries.
The most important deficiency was max speed. They were 100kmh slower than their adversaries. That killed their efficiency right from the start. You could B&Z them all day without give them any opportunity for a shot. Or you could simply ignore them. 50kmh is already a big difference, 100kmh is impossible to overcome.

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XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 04:05 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:

- Don't know about TAZ, but I can say it very clearly:
- japanese late war planes were inferior to their
- contemporaries.
- The most important deficiency was max speed. They
- were 100kmh slower than their adversaries. That
- killed their efficiency right from the start. You
- could B&Z them all day without give them any
- opportunity for a shot. Or you could simply ignore
- them. 50kmh is already a big difference, 100kmh is
- impossible to overcome.

Yet they were extremely dangerous in their element. It takes a very patient pilot to make passes at a plane until he brings it down. Dogfights tended to sink, and become close in affairs. When this occurred, the inferior Japanese fighters became very deadly indeed.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_uimages/sigwings.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 05:33 AM
yeah the zero will outrun these planes, out turning is another story.

Death is only the beginning

XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 11:54 AM
Guys, the Ki-84 was a very capable aircraft in 1944, just like the Zero was in 1941. Comparing it to a Bf 109F does not do it justice, it flew faster, farther, climbed slightly worse, turned better, was more durable, damage resistant and had heavier firepower. And regarding top speeds (kph) in early 1944:

Yak-9D: 600
F6F-Hellcat: 603
Ki-84: 621
La-5FN: 648
Bf 109G-6: 650
Spitfire Mk IX: 655
FW 190: 656Typhoon: 663
Yak-3: 665
P-47D: 686
P-51D: 698

Even though I consider top speed to be very important, there is no plane 100 kph faster than the Ki-84 and just two that have a 50+ kph advatage - at much higher altitude.

The only plane that can match it's range is the P-51 and top speed is the only true advantage it has. Just like a Bf 109 E over an I-16.

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 11:53 PM
What is also being forgotten is that the zero was a carrier airplane.That is what made it such a wonder in 1941.The late war japanese carrier aircraft were not inferior to allied carrier planes.

BaldieJr
08-09-2004, 09:51 AM
Everyone was so friendly back when this thread was fresh.

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Zmir88IAP
08-09-2004, 10:32 AM
A A6M2-Zero should be(nearly?) as good as the Rata type24. But not against t18(lighter than t24) and really no chance against tschaika.
This is well modelled in FB.

Kasdeya
08-09-2004, 11:48 AM
LOL Baldie.

http://img61.photobucket.com/albums/v186/Kasdeya/demonmoving.gif (http://www.361stvfg.com/)
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ELEM
08-09-2004, 01:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ElAurens:
Not sure about the Zero, but the Ki84 will be a terror.

If properly modeled it will own the DF servers.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It already does?

I wouldn't join any club that would have ME as member!

http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Elem_Klimov/I-16_desktop.jpg http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Elem_Klimov/dhm_787_small.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
08-09-2004, 10:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ELEM:

It already does?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ELEM , look at the date he posted

Baldie ....... we didnt know how it was going to be moddeled ........ the planes moddeling made ppl so anti

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