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king_spoon_ian
01-04-2007, 01:36 AM
Hey guys, I was wondering if you could help me out.

Recently, I bought myself a new joystick. After much deliberation, I decided on the Saitek AV8R. However, when I play Pacific Fighters, the planes all constantly pull up and to the right. It's quite slightly at first, but if you leave your joystick centred, it gradually gets worse.

What's stranger is that in both the Pacific Fighters calibration utility, and the windows control panel, it shows that my joystick is perfectly centred. Yet in the game, the planes pull up and to the right.

I tested it with a few other sims as well, and although Flight Simulator X demo displays the same problem (planes pulling up constantly), X3 : The Threat does not.

Has anyone got any tips on how I can fix this problem? Any suggestions will be much appreciated.

EDIT: I've just tried it with Forgotten Battles, and the same problem occurs, only this time, the plane pulls up and to the left. I have no idea what's causing this, or how to solve it. Please help!

EDIT 2 : OK, I've just done a complete re-install of Pacific Fighters, so it's just running v.3.00, but the problem's still there. What's worse - even with no joystick plugged into my machine, the problem still happens. This suggests that it's a problem with Pacific Fighters - has anyone else experienced this?

FritzGryphon
01-04-2007, 03:11 AM
It's normal. Use trim, or if trim is unavailable, compensate manually.

Read this to find out why.

http://zzyx.ucsc.edu/rcbees/aerodynamics/Left%20Turns%20at%20Takeoff.pdf

You can disable torque and gyro effects in the difficulty options.

king_spoon_ian
01-04-2007, 03:15 AM
Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
It's normal. Use trim, or if trim is unavailable, compensate manually.

Read this to find out why.

http://zzyx.ucsc.edu/rcbees/aerodynamics/Left%20Turns%20at%20Takeoff.pdf

You can disable torque and gyro effects in the difficulty options.

I have done - but the problem is still there, at all points during a flight - mid mission, take-off and land. Is this really a "feature" of the game? If it is, it makes it quite awkward for novices such as myself...

What's trim, and how do I use it please?

joeap
01-04-2007, 03:25 AM
Please learn to fly like the rest of us.

king_spoon_ian
01-04-2007, 03:39 AM
Originally posted by joeap:
Please learn to fly like the rest of us.

OK. Funny. If you have nothing sensible to say, don't say it at all, go and bother someone else. I posted because I'm having a PROBLEM with the game, it's nothing to do with me not being "able to fly" (and does flying in a sim really qualify you to be "able to fly"?).

Back on-topic : I can't honestly believe that, to the extent that this happens, that it is an accurate representation of flying. When I had my old joystick, this problem was not present, my plane would fly straight and level. But now, it flies up and to the right, constantly, no matter what plane I'm in, or whether I'm taking off, landing, or mid-flight. Any suggestions?

msalama
01-04-2007, 03:42 AM
When I had my old joystick, this problem was not present, my plane would fly straight and level.

Re-check your controllers m8 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif No but really - when you take away the improbable, etc., etc.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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FritzGryphon
01-04-2007, 03:53 AM
Fly the YP-80. If the plane still pulls to the side, there is a problem.

king_spoon_ian
01-04-2007, 04:01 AM
Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
Fly the YP-80. If the plane still pulls to the side, there is a problem.
Good idea. I'll try that now.

EDIT : Can't find it in my plane list. Which patch was this installed with? (I don't have a merged installation). I presume you suggest this because it's a single engine jet? Are there any others I might have? I'm sure there are some single-engine jets in Forgotten Battles (which I do have installed), that I could try?

WOLFMondo
01-04-2007, 05:13 AM
The YP80 is from the Aces expansion pack.

Alternativly try the Me262 or P38. remember to try it on the Crimea QMB map as it has no wind.

It sounds like you need to trim your plane though. Remember that trim for one speed is different to another. Full power take off in a big engined single seater or a powerful twin like the Mossie or Beaufighter will need more trim than the same plane in level flight using cruising power. Rudder trim will usually sort out the swing to the right/left and elevator will sort out the pulling up.

Try practicing in the P51DNT. All the instruments are clearly visible and nicely laid out with the ball for the rudder trim right in front of you.

Good luck!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Cheers!!

king_spoon_ian
01-04-2007, 05:17 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
The YP80 is from the Aces expansion pack.

Alternativly try the Me262 or P38. remember to try it on the Crimea QMB map as it has no wind.

It sounds like you need to trim your plane though. Remember that trim for one speed is different to another. Full power take off in a big engined single seater or a powerful twin like the Mossie or Beaufighter will need more trim than the same plane in level flight using cruising power. Rudder trim will usually sort out the swing to the right/left and elevator will sort out the pulling up.

Try practicing in the P51DNT. All the instruments are clearly visible and nicely laid out with the ball for the rudder trim right in front of you.

Good luck!

Thanks for your advice. I will test the jets out now. As for the trim - I really have no idea how to do this - I don't recall ever having to have done it before with my old joystick either. Is there an option to turn it off, or is this just something I'm gonna have to get used to?

EDIT: Just tested it. ME 262 works a lot better, but still pulls up, requiring me to hold my joystick forwards slightly to keep the nose level. It doesn't appear to tilt to either side however, so that's an improvement. I'm still not sure where the problem lies though - is it because of trim, or my joystick? Oh, and I should mention - it doesn't slide to the right, the plane leans to the right and pulls up, as if in a turn, on Pacific Fighters.

FI.Spitsfire
01-04-2007, 06:18 AM
Ok go into controls and look for the trim options, map buttons for trim, I would try with the keypad at first - up down left right buttons as it keeps it simple and try them out in flight, you will have to tap the buttons a few times to see an effect http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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WOLFMondo
01-04-2007, 06:28 AM
I made my trim for elevator and ailerons on cursor keys with Shift+up and shift+left as the resets for them and the trim keys I kept as default.

The 262 will pull up and pull up allot at high speed. It needs tons of elevator trim to get it to fly level. Its a real problem pilots had to face. Once you get used to trimming it will be come second nature. ITs also much easier to land, take off, shoot and control a battle damaged plane with trimming.

I can't rememeber if there is a plane with a left handed engine in this sim. Oleg forgot to put in any of the Griffon Spitfires.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Cheers!!

pawpaw15
01-04-2007, 06:47 AM
I doubt that there are any problems with anything on your computer from what you have described.

FritzGryphon already outlined what you need to know in the 2nd thread.

The reason you don't experience problems in X3 is because it is a space sim. You have thrusters in X3 (no propellers) and you are experiencing no external forces. IL2 tries to simulate real flying conditions on earth so expect some basic laws of physics to apply.

Any physical rotating object (eg propellers and spinner) create a force. On your plane, this will pull your aircraft nose in one direction. The amount of force is proportional to the speed at which the object is rotating.
Use rudder to keep yourself running straight down the runway and once in the air trim your rudder/ailerons (not all aircraft can).

In terms of the aircraft pulling up all the time... this also happens in real flight.
Wings generate lift for your aircraft. The faster air travels over them, the more lift they will generate. (i know i know that that is true only to a certain extent)
So... once again, use manual input to balance out the lift or reduce RPM's (rotations per minute) or power.

If you just want basic flight options, then simply turn off all flight related difficulty settings.

Hope this brings this to a close

king_spoon_ian
01-04-2007, 07:06 AM
If you just want basic flight options, then simply turn off all flight related difficulty settings.

Hope this brings this to a close

This is exactly what I have done, but I am still experiencing the realism of the flight model. But, thank you for your detailed reply, and thanks to everyone else who has replied. I just don't remember experiencing this with my other joystick. Maybe I'm mistaken.

NSAdonis85
01-04-2007, 09:20 AM
Does the Me-262's nose pull up constantly, or after a certain speed is reached (i.e. ~380km/h)?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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MrQBerrt
01-04-2007, 09:54 AM
What is trim?

Think about how your car drives when you let go of the wheel. Unless you're driving a well tuned Cadilac on a perfectly level road, the car will probably wander off from a straight path. It's the same thing in a flight sim, except the plane can wander from straight in multiple directions (up and right for example).

In a car, you get so used to correcting for this, you almost forget it happens, it's just part of driving. The same thing happens with flying. Eventually, you learn to correct it and don't think about it that much anymore (which is probably why you got the BS answer of, "learn to fly"). However, with boats and planes, there is onother option -- trimming. Trim tabs are control surfaces that can be fine tuned to make plane or boat go straight and level. Moving these control surfaces slightly is known as trimming. It would be like having a second steering wheel in the car that stayed where you put it and allowed you to make very slight alterations to the direction of your wheels. You can find the controls for doing this in the control setup part of the game options.

Hope that helps.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Platypus_1.JaVA
01-04-2007, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by MrQBerrt:
What is trim?

Think about how your car drives when you let go of the wheel. Unless you're driving a well tuned Cadilac on a perfectly level road, the car will probably wander off from a straight path. It's the same thing in a flight sim, except the plane can wander from straight in multiple directions (up and right for example).

In a car, you get so used to correcting for this, you almost forget it happens, it's just part of driving. The same thing happens with flying. Eventually, you learn to correct it and don't think about it that much anymore (which is probably why you got the BS answer of, "learn to fly"). However, with boats and planes, there is onother option -- trimming. Trim tabs are control surfaces that can be fine tuned to make plane or boat go straight and level. Moving these control surfaces slightly is known as trimming. It would be like having a second steering wheel in the car that stayed where you put it and allowed you to make very slight alterations to the direction of your wheels. You can find the controls for doing this in the control setup part of the game options.

Hope that helps.

This is a good explanation of what happens to a prop aircraft.

@king_spoon_ian, this is indeed a feature. Not only from this game but, also from real life!

If an engine of, let's say, 1500HP goes pulling to something, wouldn't it be strange if it didn't pull things in a diffrent direction? The upward pull is caused by lift. This is good because you want your plane in the air, not on the ground. The pull to the side (left or right, that varies with diffrent aircraft) is caused by propellor torque. A propellor with a diameter of 4 meters/ 12 feet wich is spinning with 3000 revolution per minute (50 times a second!) is generating alot of force. This force pulls the plane forward so you can get your airspeed but, it also pulls it sidewards. The sideward pull is called torque.

A helicopter generates a great deal of torque because they have very powerfull engines and very big and heavy blades. That is why there is some kind of tiny propellor on the tail of a helicopter, to counter that torque.

But we don't get that kind of tiny proppellors on Mustangs and other WWII aircraft http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Happy flying!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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king_spoon_ian
01-07-2007, 01:43 PM
After many hours of practise, I've found that trimming is very hard, and nigh on impossible.

I've managed to get it just right about once or twice, and have my plane flying perfectly straight or level, however, usually it all right, but not quite perfect.

For instance, my plane goes right, I apply one lot of trim to the left, my plane starts going left. There's no in-between value, so my plane never flies level. This makes bombing in a heavy bomber incredibly tricky. Flying smaller planes, I've managed to get the trimming closer, but still, it's not perfect. I understand that this may be an accurate representation of flying, but, for my amusement, I wish there was a way to turn it off.

Should I still be experiencing my plane tilting and turning to the right, even though I've turned torque and gyro effects off?

XyZspineZyX
01-07-2007, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by king_spoon_ian:
After many hours of practise, I've found that trimming is very hard, and nigh on impossible.

I've managed to get it just right about once or twice, and have my plane flying perfectly straight or level, however, usually it all right, but not quite perfect.

For instance, my plane goes right, I apply one lot of trim to the left, my plane starts going left. There's no in-between value, so my plane never flies level. This makes bombing in a heavy bomber incredibly tricky. Flying smaller planes, I've managed to get the trimming closer, but still, it's not perfect. I understand that this may be an accurate representation of flying, but, for my amusement, I wish there was a way to turn it off.

Should I still be experiencing my plane tilting and turning to the right, even though I've turned torque and gyro effects off?

I've been reading this with some interest

Ian, you are getting the hang of things. You're well on your way to "getting it". I'd like to address this one point at a time:

After many hours of practise, I've found that trimming is very hard, and nigh on impossible.

Well, there is a learning curve involved. These planes were trimmed fairly often, but something we as players often overlook is this:

real pilots didn't mess with altitude, heading, and throttle as much as we do. Truth be told, we fly these planes 'wrong' as a group. We yank the stick and stomp the rudder and slam the throttle open and closed. I know it seems less dramatic, but in actuality, these inputs were not used with the sheer brutality we as a group feel is "normal", especially with the throttle. We think of it as the gas pedal; it's not

trim sis something that in combat, pilots dealt with. Some trimmed contantly, like Bud Anderson. Some trimmed less frequently. In many planes, there is a turn and bank indicator, and it works whether or not you're using trim. You can center that turn and bank indicator with throttle stick and rudder. Give it a look now and again, and prectice making that needle or ball stay in the middle

I've managed to get it just right about once or twice, and have my plane flying perfectly straight or level, however, usually it all right, but not quite perfect.

A couple hours of practice typically doesn't give perfect results http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It also depends on how you are applying trim- what controls or commands are you using? Tapping a key? if you are, it's tough- but not impossible. Unrealistically hard actually in my opinion. This flight sim is sophisticated enough so that simply having a joystick doesn't cut it. A dedictaed HOTAS (Hands On Throttle And Stick) setup, with some sort of rudder control, is the standard. Real rudder pedals are also something that helps a lot. Having a set of rotary switches eases the trimming job; in real life, it's typically done with- a dial. Surprise! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif A dial makes it so much easier. Another tip- assign a keystrole to set yoor trim to Zero. Very handy when you've really messed up

For instance, my plane goes right, I apply one lot of trim to the left, my plane starts going left. There's no in-between value, so my plane never flies level.

There is never a set trim, as in, ok, I banked left, that requires 4 clicks trim. It's fluid and subjective. Your experience and 'feel' for it will play it's part. Nobody was born an expert. It is very possible to have the plane fly 'hands-off', but this might be, as I mention, your method of applting trim

This makes bombing in a heavy bomber incredibly tricky.

They aren't easy to fly http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif practice, as before. There's also things like auto-level for bomb runs. I'm not a multi engine sim pilot, so i don;t know all the specifics

I understand that this may be an accurate representation of flying, but, for my amusement, I wish there was a way to turn it off

You can always counter this with joystick input http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Should I still be experiencing my plane tilting and turning to the right, even though I've turned torque and gyro effects off?

Afraid something is broken, eh? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif Don;t be

Yes, this is normal at this stage of the sim's development. the sim engine was pressed to the limits of it's boundaries, a weird side-effect is that turning those effects off do not eliminate them completely<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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RamonaDave
01-07-2007, 02:54 PM
As everyone has said, this is a very accurate sim when it comes to flight dynamics. The problems you are having are the same for every Nugget pilot with some very important distinctions. 1) You have no seat of the pants feel. In a real plane you would have other inputs to tell you that the trim was off. You would instinctively compensate for tourque, lift etc and the result of your pushing or pulling of the stick would be a 'heavy feel' or a 'light feel' of the stick. Pilots trim a/c to there own liking with regards to feel of the stick. Some prefer heavy, some lighter and some strive for that ellusive perfect neutral feel. Since this is a sim and there is no mechanical feedback like a true flight simulator would give you. You don't get that feel in this game (I don't know about force-feedback sticks, don't have one).

Secondly as many have already said, pilots are always trimming to comepnsate for changes in power setting, AoA, even wind shifts. I think that what many of us like about this game is the realism. Prosecuting an attack, whether against a ground or airborn target is more realistic.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Waldo.Pepper
01-07-2007, 08:02 PM
Amazed at everyone's level of patience.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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navyholdi1999
01-10-2007, 06:30 PM
On your instrument panel is something called a "turn needle." On the bottom of the turn needle you will notice a ball that swings back and forth depending on your rudder trim. If you use rudder trim to center the ball between the two vertical lines...you have trimmed out your rudder. The way to remember which way to trim out the ball is to trim the rudder in the direction the ball is deflected (right rudder trim if the ball is on the right side). Just remember, though...if you change your power setting...you need to retrim your rudder (and elevator for pitch trim). Such is the joy of prop aircraft! Hope this helps!

One more thing...remember to be wings level when you trim out your rudder!

- NavyHoldi

DustyBarrels77
01-12-2007, 11:54 AM
go to inputs, put a 0 for the first input device line and that should solve the problem, also calibrating can help<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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gun-ace
01-15-2007, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by king_spoon_ian:
After many hours of practise, I've found that trimming is very hard, and nigh on impossible.

I've managed to get it just right about once or twice, and have my plane flying perfectly straight or level, however, usually it all right, but not quite perfect.

Disable other controllers that may be attached to the pc. Make sure the controller cabling is intact. Mic love the soft rubber on my CH Products yoke cable! Do you have rudders?

For instance, my plane goes right, I apply one lot of trim to the left, my plane starts going left. There's no in-between value, so my plane never flies level. This makes bombing in a heavy bomber incredibly tricky. Flying smaller planes, I've managed to get the trimming closer, but still, it's not perfect. I understand that this may be an accurate representation of flying, but, for my amusement, I wish there was a way to turn it off.

Should I still be experiencing my plane tilting and turning to the right, even though I've turned torque and gyro effects off?

JR_Greenhorn
01-15-2007, 10:46 PM
@king_spoon_ian,

What kind of joystick did you have before? (if you've already said, I'm sorry I missed it)

Was it the kind with the little adjustment wheels next to the joystick's axes?

I have one like this, and I use the dials as trim. In fact, that joystick sucks so much, I'm constantly trimming it with the dials to keep it centerred (to the point that I do it without even thinking about it), even in the calibration modes. My point is that I know from experience that the coarse mechanical adjustment of these dials can mask the programmed-in effects you're encountering now, that could be why you didn't see it before.



Additionally, other than the trimming issue you're discussing here, how do you like your AV8R? I just ordered one yesterday, so hopefully I'll be able to try it out by next weekend. In the meantime, I was just wondering if I can expect to be happy with my purchase.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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SS_Bubblehead
01-16-2007, 08:04 AM
Just a thought, if you want to see if your stick is applying intermitent inputs from the menu go to hardware setup, then select input. For all your main axis you have input settings. If you leave your stick centered and the green square is solidly centered over the red one then you have no false inputs.

If you are flying in other than combat power settings you should consider reducing your power significantly. For level flight, 50% power and 80-90% RPM (prop pitch) is required. With this econo band you should need very little trim input, for most planes anyway.

As others have already noted, 1200 HP engines have tremendous power bands,this force can be difficult to control if things arent adjusted just right.

If you fly in FSX try Shockwaves WW II Fighters. These you can fly with the manufacturers pilot manual. You never need full power on takeoff, and you must constantly adjust power and mixture settings when changing altitude or flight regimes. These machines had a wide range of power settings for different situations depending on desired range and altitude.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Art-J
01-16-2007, 11:21 PM
I guess the problem is, You try to HOLD the trim key and wait for reaction, which by then is exagerrated. You need to TAP it several times, to reach the balance. go ahead and try it!

Cheers - Art<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Tully__
01-17-2007, 02:50 AM
A couple of points need repeating.

1. Apply a little trim at a time then wait several seconds to see if it has the desired effect.

2. Trim elevator (up/down) first, then rudder to get the turn instrument centered (usually the ball but in some British aircraft a needle). Finally, and only is you still need it, then you play with aileron. Usually you'll find you hardly need to touch aileron trim once the other two are set right.

3. Use a light grip on your joystick, it makes trimming easier. If you're gripping tightly it's harder to get a feel for how much trim you need.

Click here for my version of the more detailed explanation. (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/5111047273)<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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