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View Full Version : Why is not the RAF Meteor jet not included...???



MB_Avro_UK
09-24-2006, 05:10 PM
hi all,

The British RAF Meteor jet was the first and only allied jet to see combat in WW2.

http://www.circlecity.co.uk/wartime/aircraft/meteor.php

It was involved in shooting down V1 flying bombs attacking London and also was involved in attacking ground targets in Europe.

In 1946, a later variant held the world airspeed record.

The Me 262 in my opinion was rushed into service whereas the Meteor had a slower production programme as it was realised that the allies were going to win the war.

Just a thought http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

NekoReaperman
09-24-2006, 05:23 PM
Why is it not in 1946?

Who knows...

SkyChimp
09-24-2006, 05:32 PM
Because no one has modelled it?

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2006, 05:35 PM
A Gloster Meteor would be fun to chase V1's with.

MB_Avro_UK
09-24-2006, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by SkyChimp:
Because no one has modelled it?

Yep,

Maybe you're right... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

leitmotiv
09-24-2006, 06:09 PM
I think it is a travesty. Should have had it and the Vampire in 46. Blazes! The Soviet fighters were being tested in 1947, and were not in production until later. Only the Meatbox and Vampire truly belonged in 46!!!!

p1ngu666
09-24-2006, 06:12 PM
46 is only/mostly lw and vvs stuff...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

ruby_monkey
09-24-2006, 06:20 PM
... and both VVS and LW have far more interesting toys to play with. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

VW-IceFire
09-24-2006, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by ruby_monkey:
... and both VVS and LW have far more interesting toys to play with. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I don't know...a Vampire, with four Hispano cannons, a top speed able to match those other toys...and a turn rate that bests the Spitfires. Thats interesting! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

p1ngu666
09-24-2006, 06:37 PM
and its made partly of wood http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

marc_hawkins
09-24-2006, 08:26 PM
I think the addon was originally only going to be for the russian market and so the lack of the western allies planes. Really we should be pleased we are getting it at all, even if we lack nice crates like the meteor.

Daiichidoku
09-24-2006, 09:33 PM
why anyone would want a Meteor in this game is beyond me, barring kamakaze/suicide-type operations....even then http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


how about a 1942 addon instead, with the He 280? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

JamesBlonde888
09-24-2006, 09:45 PM
Strange isn't it? We get a Batman plane that sat in a shed all its life but not a real combatant jet fighter. I guess the designers lost their interest in history on this one. I never fly the Go-229 since it seems an absurd machine but I can see its appeal and I guess it's appeal was stronger than that of the Meteor.

leitmotiv
09-25-2006, 07:55 AM
Since the Soviet fighters we are getting in 46 were just being tested in 1947, I make my case for the Meteor and Vampire on the basis that the Sovs would have been demanding them from the British (as well as the P-80 from the Americans) in 1946!!!! I fancy the Vampire would have been a handful for the Germans.

AKA_TAGERT
09-25-2006, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
46 is only/mostly lw and vvs stuff...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif Sadist part is most if not all of those LW jets making it into the sim never made it off the napkin they were scribbled on let alone a flyable prototype.. Yet they are put into the 46 addon? At least with the Bf109Z they could claim they used (extrapolated) existing 109 data.. but whose arse did they pull the FM data out of for the Lerche? Talk about your WAG!

Now I get the whole WHAT IF thing that 46 is based on.. But shouldn€t the jets that were actually in production in 45 like the Meteor or at least had a prototype like the Go229 make it into the 46 WHAT IF addon before LW desperate napkin drawings?

Oleg has said in the past that the 3D art is only a small percentage of what it takes to add a new plane. That is to say the FM requires much more work than the 3D art.. At least that is what he was saying around the time that he Poo Pood Gibs Do335 3D model that he was using up until the last beta and then pulled a new Do335 3D art out of his arse within a few days of being called on it.

notamuppet
09-25-2006, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
46 is only/mostly lw and vvs stuff...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif At least that is what he was saying around the time that he Poo Pood Gibs Do335 3D model that he was using up until the last beta and then pulled a new Do335 3D art out of his arse within a few days of being called on it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ouch THAT would hurt http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Klemm.co
09-25-2006, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Since the Soviet fighters we are getting in 46 were just being tested in 1947, I make my case for the Meteor and Vampire on the basis that the Sovs would have been demanding them from the British (as well as the P-80 from the Americans) in 1946!!!! I fancy the Vampire would have been a handful for the Germans.

I think that the most valid story for a war thats going on to 46 is that the allies (Britain, USA and some others) had some trouble/clashes with the USSR and don't "like" russia anymore. Remember- lots of people didn't like the USSR very much before Hitler attack Russia.
So in the end the rest of the allies are not supporting Russia anymore in any way and are counting on germany to defeat the Soviet Union. The Soviets did then in turn speed up the development of jets and the like, so they would have been ready by 1946. Maybe in turn for a germany that has made peace with Britain, America and gave back all the conquered land etc. Of course this could have only happend in 41 or 42, when Germany wasn't losing the war as badly as in 44 or 45.

WOLFMondo
09-25-2006, 10:03 AM
If we get the box set special addition, can we get copies of those napkin drawings?

I don't mind really, we were never gonna get it. I'm content its got the Ta152c in it. A Spitfire XIV would have been nice though and some RAF jets but begars can't be choosers etc.

Timex62
09-25-2006, 10:16 AM
Since I havn't seen anyone say it yet I'll add more fuel to the fire: the early Soviet jet designs were based on information captured from the Germans after the war. Right?

Chuck_Older
09-25-2006, 10:20 AM
Why is the P-51K not included? Why is the H81-3A not included? Why is the Ki-15 not included? Why is the F4U-4 not included? Why is the SNJ not included? Why is the F3F not included?

Because http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JSG72
09-25-2006, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by Timex62:
Since I havn't seen anyone say it yet I'll add more fuel to the fire: the early Soviet jet designs were based on information captured from the Germans after the war. Right?

Yep! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Wasn't it? All German based Design engines Until the "Nene" in the Mig 15
Are we getting LA-9s with Pulse Jets?

leitmotiv
09-25-2006, 11:35 AM
It's all a load of hockum and I think it is a terrible, cheap end to the series. Dumb as h---. Considering the current political climate between the U.S. Gov and the Russian Gov everybody could have blown off some steam with a big Sovs vs Yanks ca. 1948-50 thrash with real aircraft like the B-36, Tu-4, the Korean order of battle. But, nooooooooooooooooooo! We had to have a last sop to the Luftwaffe buffs. Aggghhhh. Ridiculous. Pathetic.

HuninMunin
09-25-2006, 11:40 AM
Anyone remembers that we had to ask to get this 3 addons released in the west <span class="ev_code_RED">at all</span> ?

( http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Leitmotiv )

MEGILE
09-25-2006, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by SkyChimp:
Because no one has modelled it?

You sir, are the winner.

F6_Ace
09-25-2006, 11:43 AM
Perhaps the Meteor had well documented characteristics that the developer thought would be too troublesome to model properly? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Otherwise, I suspect it is as said - no one could be a*sed to model it.

Kurfurst__
09-25-2006, 12:07 PM
It's because Hollywood hates the British.

Xiolablu3
09-25-2006, 12:10 PM
Damn those Hollywood b*st*rds, if it wasnt for them we would have the Meteor!

Where is the witchhunter Gerneral?

AKA_TAGERT
09-25-2006, 12:29 PM
Oh well, I just thank god Gibbage had the foresight to model the P80 and Go335 way back when so that we can have some actual jets in the game instead of those desperate last gasp napkin drawing that jerry was cranking out ever five seconds knowing that none of them would ever see the light of day.

That and the P80 would pwon any of those in that the P80 was a pure fighter where as most of the napkin drawing stuff were fighter bombers types trying to appease the paper hangers visions of fast attack blitz minded offence strategy that served him so well in the begging when no one thought he would attack (aka element of suprise) but in a time when jerry was in a defensive position. Go figure!

Good news is now I will be able to make use of some of those cool P80 skins!

Xiolablu3
09-25-2006, 12:39 PM
De Havilland Vampire would PWN your P80! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

WOLFMondo
09-25-2006, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
It's because Hollywood hates the British.

Its a damn conspiracy!! I knew it.

AKA_TAGERT
09-25-2006, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
De Havilland Vampire would PWN your P80! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif Negative Ghost Rider

Xiolablu3
09-25-2006, 01:29 PM
...the pattern is full?


Calm down guys, its just a fun ending to the series.

Something Oleg and the team have maybe wanted to do for a while. AFter being tied to realism for so long, they probably thought this would be a fun way to finish the series.

luftluuver
09-25-2006, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
Why is the P-51K not included? Why is the H81-3A not included? Why is the Ki-15 not included? Why is the F4U-4 not included? Why is the SNJ not included? Why is the F3F not included?

Because http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Isn't the P-51K just a P-51D (with minor mods like the prop) but built in Dallas instead of Calfornia?

Aaron_GT
09-25-2006, 03:29 PM
I don't mind really, we were never gonna get it. I'm content its got the Ta152c in it. A Spitfire XIV would have been nice though and some RAF jets but begars can't be choosers etc.


For a '46 add on I'd like to have the Spiteful, Hornet and Fury in addition to the XIV and 22!

leitmotiv
09-25-2006, 03:34 PM
Right, luftluvver: the Dallas-built K just had a different prop and a differently-shaped canopy. The lightweight H was the ubertang.

Daiichidoku
09-25-2006, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
De Havilland Vampire would PWN your P80! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

He 280 would PWN both

Aaron_GT
09-25-2006, 03:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
De Havilland Vampire would PWN your P80! Tongue

Negative Ghost Rider


Vampire I: Max speed 522 mph (although some sources quote as high as 540) very nimble, 4 Hispano V cannon.

YP-80A: Max speed 540 mph (some say as high as 547) not as nimble, less well armed.

So the Vampire I would be a touch slower, but be better armed and more nimble in a dog fight. It would probably be a close run thing.

leitmotiv
09-25-2006, 04:36 PM
Vamp would have been a nimble bistid, like the 162.

MB_Avro_UK
09-25-2006, 04:50 PM
hi all,

The facts are as follows:

The Meteor flew in WW2 and had combat time. It could have been developed further in WW2 but the Allies knew that the war was won and they were looking long term.

It also held the World's Air Speed Record in 1946.

The Vampire first flew in 1943 but its development was not hurried for the same reasons.
http://www.warbirdalley.com/vampire.htm

The Luftwaffe however had rather large military problems and research and development was a high priority.

There are valid grounds in my humble opinion for including the Meteor and Vampire in the 1946 plane set.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Daiichidoku
09-25-2006, 04:55 PM
if not aesthetically, the go 229 makes a decent stand in for the Vamp http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

leitmotiv
09-25-2006, 05:46 PM
Logic dictates we should have had a Meteor and Vampire, MB_Avro, but Oleg plays by Moscow Rules. Smiley

F6_Ace
09-25-2006, 05:49 PM
I'd like to see the Vamp, too. After all, it's a more pertinent addition. I'd also like to see Wendy James flying it.

As I, nor anyone else modelled it, however, beggars cannot be choosers.

Philipscdrw
09-25-2006, 06:45 PM
This thread makes me sad. We're fortunate to be getting any extra stuff at all, F*S!

Whiny brats. I'd like an 'ignore' function for these forums...

AKA_TAGERT
09-25-2006, 09:27 PM
what is worse.. the whinner.. or the guy whinning about the whinners?

VW-IceFire
09-25-2006, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
This thread makes me sad. We're fortunate to be getting any extra stuff at all, F*S!

Whiny brats. I'd like an 'ignore' function for these forums...
I don't know...its a largely friendly discussion about the Meteor and Vampire. It wasn't a whine fest till now...

LEBillfish
09-25-2006, 10:40 PM
What blows my mind is the absolute nationalistic hypocrisy of these forums and many others.......

Now maybe I'm not some blind patriot shouting "ra, ra, ra, we're the best kill the rest!"......Yet it is ridiculous seeing how so many here will state that Oleg is anti this or anti that, pro this or pro that......Yet then turn around and based solely on it's from "My country so has to be the best or focused on" get upset and bi*ch, whine and complain. Want the truth?.......If all the axis had not fought together, or all the allies had not...EVERYTHING would of come out differently, your little piddally chunk of dirt contributed yet was not the whole 9 yards. Being born somewhere does not make you a special little flower nor your country the best to the rest of the world......Frankly, I can stand on the border of ANY country and can't tell it from the next.

Now if you want the Meteor, or the Antarctic Cod Flyer, or anything else it's simple.........Make it. Spend your hours, days, weeks, months, years and make it........Then crack the code to insert it in the sim as YOU DON"T OWN THE CODE. Then, after you're broke, destitute, starving....."give it away and make version 4.09".

In the end, it's Maddox Games sim. Sponsored by 1c, distributed by Ubi. They can make any friggin thing they like...It does not matter what was or could of been as this is the product as presented take it or leave it, right or wrong..If you don't like it, don't buy it, that simple. These threads have become nothing short of rediculous being unless an absolute idiot you'd not realize all this.

So guess I'll not be seeing you all on the servers. Kewl! More kills for me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

AKA_TAGERT
09-25-2006, 10:56 PM
como?

LEBillfish
09-25-2006, 11:00 PM
Oye como va........ http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

AKA_TAGERT
09-25-2006, 11:01 PM
C

LEBillfish
09-25-2006, 11:03 PM
D

Monty_Thrud
09-26-2006, 01:12 AM
Its nearly the end of the month http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif


...Jets are WRONG!...mmm-kay

Klemm.co
09-26-2006, 01:45 AM
Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:

The Luftwaffe however had rather large military problems and research and development was a high priority.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Thats not wholly true, the development of new desings and even of existing ones was always slowed down and even halted in anticipation of a near end of the war.
As the desperation grow and the war was already lost, these desingns (jets, high-performance props) were suddenly rushed in production.
However they were largely untested and and some important materials were in short supply.

Considering these facts, the Me 262 with proper support could have been in service in 1943 in hundreds, which is not as impossible as it seems.

The priorities of the nazi government were simply in disorder throughout the whole war.

HuninMunin
09-26-2006, 01:49 AM
If we go What If we can very well assume that the He-280 could have been produced in large seriers in 1942.
If only Hitler had known anything about airwarfare.

Daiichidoku
09-26-2006, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by HuninMunin:
If we go What If we can very well assume that the He-280 could have been produced in large seriers in 1942.
If only Hitler had known anything about airwarfare.

finally! someone who recognises the He-280!

you're a brilliant man, Hunnin http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

HuninMunin
09-26-2006, 02:22 PM
I like it.
But the Swallow has the sexier look by far. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

AKA_TAGERT
09-27-2006, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by HuninMunin:
If we go What If we can very well assume that the He-280 could have been produced in large seriers in 1942.
If only Hitler had known anything about airwarfare. *IF* the USA would have gave Goddard the money in the 30s to scale up his 20 rocket patents from the 1920s and 1930s (Just like the German V2 program did) we could have been ICBMin Germany from the outset of the war in 1939. That in combination with the ABOMB would have made it a 1 day war saving millions of lifes.

Or *IF* monkeys could fly out of my but at the speed of light with red hats and rayguns than Hitler might have stood a chance too.

So many *IFS* so little time

Vipez-
09-27-2006, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
...That in combination with the ABOMB would have made it a 1 day war saving millions of lifes.



Just curious, how does ABOMB actually save lifes ? :O

HuninMunin
09-27-2006, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:
If we go What If we can very well assume that the He-280 could have been produced in large seriers in 1942.
If only Hitler had known anything about airwarfare. *IF* the USA would have gave Goddard the money in the 30s to scale up his 20 rocket patents from the 1920s and 1930s (Just like the German V2 program did) we could have been ICBMin Germany from the outset of the war in 1939. That in combination with the ABOMB would have made it a 1 day war saving millions of lifes.

Or *IF* monkeys could fly out of my but at the speed of light with red hats and rayguns than Hitler might have stood a chance too.

So many *IFS* so little time </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. If your post is meant to be "tounge-in-cheek" sarcasm, please mark it as that.

2. The A-Bomb was only possible trough the usage of german uran.

3. America didn't give a s**t about the invasion of Poland in 39.

4. Please burn your Stars'n'Stripes underpants.

Thank you very much.

luftluuver
09-27-2006, 09:00 AM
2. The A-Bomb was only possible trough the usage of german uran. Where did you pick up that little tid bit?

HuninMunin
09-27-2006, 09:08 AM
Google for U-234 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

But to add to the initial discussion:
A Meteor or Vampire would be great to have in 46.
I love the early jets and if I were a talented 3DArtist, I would have started to work on not only those, but also a few other aircraft that might be a good addition to the scenario.
But sadly I suck at 3D modelling and the focus of this addon is purely on the eastern front.
Thats the way it was concieved and made, with no thought of releasing it anywhere else then in Russia to beginn with.
Why don't you just climb into the Ta-183, assuming that there's peace between Germany and the western Allies in 46 and that technology was exchanged? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Still better then nothing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Philipscdrw
09-27-2006, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:
If we go What If we can very well assume that the He-280 could have been produced in large seriers in 1942.
If only Hitler had known anything about airwarfare. *IF* the USA would have gave Goddard the money in the 30s to scale up his 20 rocket patents from the 1920s and 1930s (Just like the German V2 program did) we could have been ICBMin Germany from the outset of the war in 1939. That in combination with the ABOMB would have made it a 1 day war saving millions of lifes.

Or *IF* monkeys could fly out of my but at the speed of light with red hats and rayguns than Hitler might have stood a chance too.

So many *IFS* so little time </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interestingly, the USA weren't very interested in fighting against Hitler until he declared war on them...

[the following paragraph is a light-hearted joke.]

It's a good thing the USA didn't have ICBMs in 1941 - chances are they'd miss and hit London!

[/joke]

luftluuver
09-27-2006, 09:32 AM
In 1942 the intensely focused Manhattan Project sought uranium from all sources and the first available were the milled vanadium tailings - containing uranium.
http://www.dregs.org/fldtrips.html

The Ames Project produced more than 2 million pounds (1,000 tons) of uranium for the Manhattan Project until industry took over the process in 1945.

So why did they need the small quantity from a German sub?

from ''Manhattan: The Army and the Atomic Bomb''

In early 1942, the OSRD planning board had located sufficient raw uranium ore in North America to satisfy the anticipated requirements of the project for many months to come....
[The] source was the mine owned by Eldorado Gold Mines Ltd., at Great Bear Lake in Northwest Canada.... The mine itself had been closed and allowed to fill with water in the summer of 1940, because sufficient ore had been stockpiled to meet anticipated demand for five years.... When the OSRD placed a sizable order in 1941, it obtained additional equipment and supplies for getting the mine back into operation and, meanwhile, [ Eldorado ] continued to supply amounts of [ uranium ] oxide refined from the stockpiled ores....


To ensure an adequate supply of uranium oxide, Colonel Nichols directed Stone and Webster to buy 350 tons from [ Eldorado ] to cover the project's needs for the year ahead [ beginning July 7, 1942 ].... Thanks to these measures, by the fall of 1942 [ uranium ] production ... from Eldorado's ore had increased sufficiently to supply the project's requirements.... [ pp. 62-64 ]

Ore procurement activities, which reached a high point in 1944 and then levelled off somewhat in early 1945, were concentrated in three major areas: Africa, Canada, and the United States. Project leaders were aware in 1943 that the wartime needs of the bomb program were likely to exhaust both the immediately available domestic and Canadian deposits, and the security implications of this situation led to a ... policy of using, to the greatest extent possible, ores from foreign sources.

The most significant foreign source was the Belgian Congo.... All Canadian ore ... came from the Great Bear Lake area. [ p. 310 ]

http://www.ccnr.org/uranium_in_bombs.html#table

luftluuver
09-27-2006, 09:41 AM
Can someone tell me how if the Germans and Soviets were still at war, the Russians managed to obtain the BMW 003 engines for the MiG 9?

Rood-Zwart
09-27-2006, 09:53 AM
By capturing crash landed fighters?

NagaSadow84
09-27-2006, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
In 1942 the intensely focused Manhattan Project sought uranium from all sources and the first available were the milled vanadium tailings - containing uranium.
http://www.dregs.org/fldtrips.html

The Ames Project produced more than 2 million pounds (1,000 tons) of uranium for the Manhattan Project until industry took over the process in 1945.

So why did they need the small quantity from a German sub?

from ''Manhattan: The Army and the Atomic Bomb''

In early 1942, the OSRD planning board had located sufficient raw uranium ore in North America to satisfy the anticipated requirements of the project for many months to come....
[The] source was the mine owned by Eldorado Gold Mines Ltd., at Great Bear Lake in Northwest Canada.... The mine itself had been closed and allowed to fill with water in the summer of 1940, because sufficient ore had been stockpiled to meet anticipated demand for five years.... When the OSRD placed a sizable order in 1941, it obtained additional equipment and supplies for getting the mine back into operation and, meanwhile, [ Eldorado ] continued to supply amounts of [ uranium ] oxide refined from the stockpiled ores....


To ensure an adequate supply of uranium oxide, Colonel Nichols directed Stone and Webster to buy 350 tons from [ Eldorado ] to cover the project's needs for the year ahead [ beginning July 7, 1942 ].... Thanks to these measures, by the fall of 1942 [ uranium ] production ... from Eldorado's ore had increased sufficiently to supply the project's requirements.... [ pp. 62-64 ]

Ore procurement activities, which reached a high point in 1944 and then levelled off somewhat in early 1945, were concentrated in three major areas: Africa, Canada, and the United States. Project leaders were aware in 1943 that the wartime needs of the bomb program were likely to exhaust both the immediately available domestic and Canadian deposits, and the security implications of this situation led to a ... policy of using, to the greatest extent possible, ores from foreign sources.

The most significant foreign source was the Belgian Congo.... All Canadian ore ... came from the Great Bear Lake area. [ p. 310 ]

http://www.ccnr.org/uranium_in_bombs.html#table

Because the German uranium was already enriched.

bienenbaer
09-27-2006, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
Can someone tell me how if the Germans and Soviets were still at war, the Russians managed to obtain the BMW 003 engines for the MiG 9?

Heinous commie spies everywhere http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

luftluuver
09-27-2006, 10:12 AM
During the Manhattan Project, the wartime Allied program to develop the first atomic bombs during World War II, the United States government bought up many reserves of uranium around the world, although the process of enriching it to applicable levels required gargantuan facilities (see Oak Ridge National Laboratory). Eventually enough uranium, mainly from Democratic Republic of the Congo (Belgian Congo), was enriched for one atomic bomb nicknamed "Little Boy", which was dropped on Hiroshima, Japan on August 6th, 1945. The other nuclear weapons developed during the war used plutonium as their fissionable material, which itself requires uranium to produce.

leitmotiv
09-27-2006, 10:42 AM
Luftluvver nailed it down. This whole 46 concept is rum---because of the BMW engine and because the Sov fighters were being tested in '47, for petessake. Would have been far better to have done the Ar 234, the Ta 152, the Meteor, the Spit XIV, the Vamp---which would have been real '45-6. Oleg started this thing as an attempt to stick to documented performance rigidly along with hyper-detail. The fantasywaffe aircraft are a repudiation of his own high standards.

csThor
09-27-2006, 10:51 AM
There are a lot of aircraft which would have been more useful inside the historical limitations of WW2, but since RRG decided on that content and MG/UBI gave their OK ranting about it is like barking up a tree - noone (with influence) will hear you, noone (with influence) will do anything about it and you'll probably end up angering the neighbors.

For me the whole PF affair was a serious mistake because this theater brought out the weaknesses of the Il-2 engine and failed to show the strenghts (plus a few other things about project management and planning). I bought it anyway since some planes and objects were useful for the European Theater and because I wanted to get some later additions (as Kurland map, as Murmansk map ...). So I know about not caring for the content but buying it anyway (same goes for the Manchuria AddOn - I'm not a PTO/CBI guy).

MB_Avro_UK
09-27-2006, 01:44 PM
hi all,

About 3 years ago I offered on this forum to pay 300.00 for a modeller who could produce a Meteor to Oleg's satisfaction.

But there were no takers. There was a suggestion at the time that I should have posted my offer on Netwings.

Well.....I did put my money where my mouth is (was!).

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

MB_Avro_UK
09-27-2006, 01:47 PM
Before anyone points out that my registration shows only from last year..I used to be here as MB_Avro before a pc rebuild caused me to be re-registered.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

leitmotiv
09-27-2006, 02:19 PM
Russian conspiracy it is. Sour grapes for the Iron Curtain speech.

Badsight-
09-27-2006, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
hi all,

About 3 years ago I offered on this forum to pay 300.00 for a modeller who could produce a Meteor to Oleg's satisfaction.

But there were no takers. There was a suggestion at the time that I should have posted my offer on Netwings.

Well.....I did put my money where my mouth is (was!).

Best Regards,
MB_Avro. you offered money

still no-one wanted the dog , the flying points , the worse-than-some-props british jet

not getting the message i see

ploughman
09-27-2006, 03:12 PM
Since when was being cr@p a bar on inclusion?

ARCHIE_CALVERT
09-27-2006, 04:34 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://klu.tigerteam-security.net/images/Gloster_Mk-1_Meteor_06.jpg

http://home.tiscali.nl/vliegmachines/meat1.jpg

http://home.tiscali.nl/vliegmachines/meat0.jpg

http://www.oldcmp.net/Images/Aircraft/temora/Dragonfly/Meteorinair.jpg

http://www.oldcmp.net/Images/Aircraft/temora/Dragonfly/meteor_roll.jpg

http://www.oldcmp.net/Images/Aircraft/TAM/Jan_06/Meatbox_Vamp.jpg

MB_Avro_UK
09-27-2006, 04:38 PM
Thanks Archie.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

ARCHIE_CALVERT
09-27-2006, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
Thanks Archie.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Think nothing of it... The way I see it is it was part of aviation history and as such should not have been left out... Plain and simple http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Low_Flyer_MkVb
09-27-2006, 05:03 PM
Pssst! Wanna see a couple of big ones? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

http://www.raf.mod.uk/downloads/gallery/meteor3s1024.jpg

http://www.raf.mod.uk/downloads/gallery/meteorspeed1024.jpg

Goodnight all. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

MB_Avro_UK
09-27-2006, 05:33 PM
Thanks for the pics guys..

My father flew the Meteor many years ago and I'll send him the pics. He's on his last legs but it will cheer him up http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

AKA_TAGERT
09-27-2006, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by Vipez-:
Just curious, how does ABOMB actually save lifes ? :O Ah La Shock n Ah.
Perfect example, the ABOMB ended the war in the pacific. Had we not dropped the ABOMB the US would have lost hundreds of thousands of men invading Japan, and Japan would have lost 10 times that defending Japan. Therefore the dropping of the ABOMBS that only killed about ~400,000 Japanise (100 or so per each inital blast, another 100 or so weeks later due to the blast) made them stand up and take notice and surender. SAVVY?

AKA_TAGERT
09-27-2006, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by HuninMunin:
1. If your post is meant to be "tounge-in-cheek" sarcasm, please mark it as that. It was not, therefore not marked as such.


Originally posted by HuninMunin:
2. The A-Bomb was only possible trough the usage of german uran.
Not True.


Originally posted by HuninMunin:
3. America didn't give a s**t about the invasion of Poland in 39.
Not True.


Originally posted by HuninMunin:
4. Please burn your Stars'n'Stripes underpants.
Negative Ghost Rider


Originally posted by HuninMunin:
Thank you very much.
Step off smacktard

leitmotiv
09-27-2006, 06:26 PM
The ruthless, barbaric, and pitiless Japanese Army was going to send little kids swarming at the Allied landings with sharpened bamboo stakes! The invasion of Japan woould have been a colossal bloodbath. Had the U.S. not given the fanatics a way out with no loss of face---by attacking with a weapon of supernatural strength which left them no recourse but to surrender---the Army would have forced the government to fight to the death. Certainly Stalin's intention to throw his own invasion ashore as soon as possible motivated Truman to use the bomb rather than starve the Japanese into surrender, as Nimitz urged. If Stalin had landed in Hokkaido, Japan would have, at the least, been a divided country until the fall of the USSR. At the worst, as in Okinawa, Iwo Jima, and Saipan---the land battle would have destroyed almost all the fighting men, and the civilians would have been forced into suicide by the Army. The Japanese possibly could have been exterminated. As Paul Fussell the famous Left-wing literary critic wrote in 1995: "Thank God for the atom bomb."

AKA_TAGERT
09-27-2006, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
Interestingly,
Agreed 100%


Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
the USA weren't very interested in fighting against Hitler until he declared war on them... Note the side topic has to do with "what ifs" as in "what if" the US had a ICBM capable of spanking Germany in 1939. With that capability we wouldnt have had to justify putting our men in harms way, which would make it a much easier sell to the isolatisnm attitude of the US public at large at that time, Thus we could have simply let the rockets fly! SAVVY?


Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
[the following paragraph is a light-hearted joke.]

It's a good thing the USA didn't have ICBMs in 1941 - chances are they'd miss and hit London!

[/joke]
Not a chance.. Goddard was in his prime! Berlin would have been a smokin hole.

AKA_TAGERT
09-27-2006, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
During the Manhattan Project, the wartime Allied program to develop the first atomic bombs during World War II, the United States government bought up many reserves of uranium around the world, although the process of enriching it to applicable levels required gargantuan facilities (see Oak Ridge National Laboratory). Eventually enough uranium, mainly from Democratic Republic of the Congo (Belgian Congo), was enriched for one atomic bomb nicknamed "Little Boy", which was dropped on Hiroshima, Japan on August 6th, 1945. The other nuclear weapons developed during the war used plutonium as their fissionable material, which itself requires uranium to produce. Nice.. say.. anyone seen HuninMunin or NagaSadow84 latly? They seem to have gone away for some reason?

SkyChimp
09-27-2006, 07:21 PM
I€ve seen speculation, that I believe is correct, that Japan surrendered because they realized an inevitably successful invasion, or the raining of atomic bombs, would not only destroy the Japanese government and military, but would take such a toll on the general populace and Japanese society that Japan would not be able to recover, and the Japanese culture would have ended. Japan and its culture, as it was known at the time, would have become a member of a long list of cultures that came and went, like the ancient Egyptians and the Phoenicians.

With respect to the use of the A-bomb on Japan - people may cajole all they wish over the wisdom of its use on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. One thing cannot be argued, however. And that is that the demonstration of it€s horrible power on real people during war probably was the single biggest cause of restraint shown by the US and USSR during the Cold War. Had those bombs not been dropped and had horrendous proof of the effect on people not been seen, I believe the likelihood of nuclear war would have been greatly increased during the Cold War.

Regarding the Meteor, I think it belongs in this game.

leitmotiv
09-27-2006, 09:10 PM
Concur. Until the atom bomb the Japanese Army demonstrated time and again they understood no limits, as demonstrated by Nanking and the barbaric extermination campaign they carried out against the Chinese with every form of "WMD" short of The Bomb, and with bayonet and bullet. The Bomb taught the Army limits, and possibly saved the mass of the Japanese from annihilation.

NagaSadow84
09-28-2006, 12:12 AM
Well, for years the same people stated that the German atomic-research was stopped in 1942. That it was years behind in research. That Germany hadn€t had a working nuclear reactor in 1945. I could go on and on and on. Nearly everything previously €œknown€ about the German A-Bomb has been proven false in the last few years. Oh and the €œGerman€ uranium came from Congo too, so the statement is actually right in a certain way.

WOLFMondo
09-28-2006, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vipez-:
Just curious, how does ABOMB actually save lifes ? :O Ah La Shock n Ah.
Perfect example, the ABOMB ended the war in the pacific. Had we not dropped the ABOMB the US would have lost hundreds of thousands of men invading Japan, and Japan would have lost 10 times that defending Japan. Therefore the dropping of the ABOMBS that only killed about ~400,000 Japanise (100 or so per each inital blast, another 100 or so weeks later due to the blast) made them stand up and take notice and surender. SAVVY? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think estimates of allied causualties was between 2 to 5 million killed or wounded. Its not hard to justify the bomb.

I think its forgotten that the Tokyo firebombing killed twice as many as either A bomb.

ploughman
09-28-2006, 03:05 AM
Whilst those A-bombs were catalysts for Japan's surrender they have to seen in the context of an already hugely effective strategic bombing campaign that was devastating the Japanese home islands. It was pretty clear to the Japanese leadership that the game was up even before the Enola Gay took to the skies.

Hard to say what the effect of an A-bomb attack on December 8th 1941 would have been, but I doubt it would have been unconditional surrender.

Aaron_GT
09-28-2006, 03:10 AM
2. The A-Bomb was only possible trough the usage of german uran.


Not True.


This is true. It was not required, although the German uranium was apparently used. (Why waste it?)




3. America didn't give a s**t about the invasion of Poland in 39.


Not True.

FDR's actions at least indicated a considerable lack of concern for the welfare of Poland, not least, resulting in it being in the Soviet sphere after WW2. Churchill was rather unhappy about this. What the US people felt is somewhat different to what FDR felt, of course.


The ruthless, barbaric, and pitiless Japanese Army was going to send little kids swarming at the Allied landings with sharpened bamboo stakes! The invasion of Japan woould have been a colossal bloodbath. Had the U.S. not given the fanatics a way out with no loss of face---

Japan had a military government from 1941 to 1944. The new civilian government started looking for a negotiated surrender in February 1945, and after the even newer civilian government took office, in May 1945 this was followed even more vigorously. The USSR was supposed to be the peace broker in this, but since Stalin wanted Manchuria the information was not relayed to the Western Allies. However the USA may have had some information on this (how much is hotly debated) due to intercepts and the breaking of the Japanese cyrptographic code.

Whilst it is possible that a move to surrender prior to use of the atomic bombs may have led to another military coup, but it is not likely.

The primary requirement that both civilian governments had was that any surrender included a condition - the retention of the emperor, the irony being that this is what happened. The other was varying amounts of land to be retained in China, which of course would not have been acceptable. Whether negotiations could have led to this other precondition being dropped is not something we will ever know.

Overall FDR's "no surrender" policy was a mistake both in Europe (at least with relation to Italy) and possibly in Japan and probably lengthened the war and allowed the USSR to grab more territory and have more spheres of influence than might otherwise have been the case. I suspect that Truman saw the threat from the USSR more keenly than FDR did.


And that is that the demonstration of it€s horrible power on real people during war probably was the single biggest cause of restraint shown by the US and USSR during the Cold War.

I think this is the best argument along the lines of Hiroshima and Nagaski saving lives, and I totally agree with your point, Chimp. I think the war with Japan could have been ended sooner and with less loss of life, but the Japanese sacrifice in those cities probably spared us something worse, which might well have happened in Korea (all other things being equal - if the war had ended sooner North Korea might not have been Communist, but that's a greater what if).

Aaron_GT
09-28-2006, 03:23 AM
Getting off topic here.... (maybe we need a new thread for this?)


Well, for years the same people stated that the German atomic-research was stopped in 1942.

I don't think anyone has been saying this, but it is true that programmes that were not likely to result in useful weapons by 1944 had their funding cut, and in the case of the nuclear programme it was continued at a lower level via funding from the Culture Ministry.

The Manhattan project was spurred into action due to testimony from Bohr that Germany was working quite seriously on a bomb, yet Heisenberg, after the war, disputed the details of the meeting in Copenhagen that Bohr referred to. Contemporaneous documents recently discovered seem to support Heisenberg's story more than Bohr's in that their meeting was cordial, involving reading stories to each other, playing the piano, etc. But then even contemporaneous documents may be immediate reinterpretations of events.

This having been said it is very unclear whether Heisenberg's post-war story that he was deliberately stalling the German research is true or not. He seemed to be going up a blind alley during the war and quickly able to calculate how the allied bombs were built when he heard that they had been used, but this doesn't prove he was deliberately stalling the German efforts.

Michael Frayn (British playwright) wrote a play on this subject (named 'Copehhagen') and seems to have become something of a world expert on it in the process, finding some original source material, as far as I remember. The title and the differences in recollection hints at differences in interpretation, punning on the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum physics.

Bohr and Heisenberg were both great men, but the objective truth.... who can tell?

96th_Nightshifter
09-28-2006, 03:35 AM
Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I don't mind really, we were never gonna get it. I'm content its got the Ta152c in it. A Spitfire XIV would have been nice though and some RAF jets but begars can't be choosers etc.


For a '46 add on I'd like to have the Spiteful, Hornet and Fury in addition to the XIV and 22! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now THAT I would pay full price for http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

NagaSadow84
09-28-2006, 05:43 AM
Heisenberg was unimportant to the actual bomb-program(s). The important scientists were Diebner, Trinks, Haxel and von Ardenne. And the funding of the real programs was never cut.

Aaron_GT
09-28-2006, 05:58 AM
And the funding of the real programs was never cut.


Everything I've ever read or heard about indicates that it was cut from the main funding stream in 1942, to be continued from other sources. What's the evidence that it was not cut from the main funding streams?

Von_Rat
09-28-2006, 06:18 AM
Originally posted by NagaSadow84:
Heisenberg was unimportant to the actual bomb-program(s). The important scientists were Diebner, Trinks, Haxel and von Ardenne. And the funding of the real programs was never cut.

hmm i pretty sure speer said differant in his book. you'd think he'd know.

if funding wasnt cut, it should of been. since the german bomb wasnt nearly ready in time.

leitmotiv
09-28-2006, 07:06 AM
The "Japanese leadership" was the Imperial army. The civilian government wanted to make peace before the atomic bombs were dropped, but they were vetoed and intimidated by the Army. The Army was unimpressed by LeMay's campaign which had burned out nearly every city of consequence. Even after the two atomic bombs some in the Army tried to intercept the Emperor's recorded surrender speech and tried to seize the Emperor. Fortunately for the Japanese, they failed.

NagaSadow84
09-28-2006, 07:32 AM
Speer had his reasons. At the Nürnberg Trials Speer was accused with an A-Bomb-Test in which hundreds of prisoners were killed in March 1945. So he had every reason to lie.

HuninMunin
09-28-2006, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by luftluuver:
During the Manhattan Project, the wartime Allied program to develop the first atomic bombs during World War II, the United States government bought up many reserves of uranium around the world, although the process of enriching it to applicable levels required gargantuan facilities (see Oak Ridge National Laboratory). Eventually enough uranium, mainly from Democratic Republic of the Congo (Belgian Congo), was enriched for one atomic bomb nicknamed "Little Boy", which was dropped on Hiroshima, Japan on August 6th, 1945. The other nuclear weapons developed during the war used plutonium as their fissionable material, which itself requires uranium to produce. Nice.. say.. anyone seen HuninMunin or NagaSadow84 latly? They seem to have gone away for some reason? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe because lifes to short to argue about facts with people wanting to see them in a certain light. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Von_Rat
09-28-2006, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by NagaSadow84:
Speer had his reasons. At the Nürnberg Trials Speer was accused with an A-Bomb-Test in which hundreds of prisoners were killed in March 1945. So he had every reason to lie.


but there was no a-bomb test. so why should he lie?

there was a test of a giant incendary around that time, that some later reports tried to make into a a-bomb test. but it wasnt, there was no radiation at the site.

Aaron_GT
09-28-2006, 04:05 PM
The "Japanese leadership" was the Imperial army.


If this was the case why did the regime change in 1944 to a civilian one, and again in 1945. This indicates military power on the wane. Of course in a factional system such as prevailed (and often prevails on the losing side in a conflict) in Japan there were moves and counter moves by various factions, but this does not mean that the IJA was 'the leadership'.

MB_Avro_UK
09-28-2006, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by SkyChimp:
I€ve seen speculation, that I believe is correct, that Japan surrendered because they realized an inevitably successful invasion, or the raining of atomic bombs, would not only destroy the Japanese government and military, but would take such a toll on the general populace and Japanese society that Japan would not be able to recover, and the Japanese culture would have ended. Japan and its culture, as it was known at the time, would have become a member of a long list of cultures that came and went, like the ancient Egyptians and the Phoenicians.

With respect to the use of the A-bomb on Japan - people may cajole all they wish over the wisdom of its use on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. One thing cannot be argued, however. And that is that the demonstration of it€s horrible power on real people during war probably was the single biggest cause of restraint shown by the US and USSR during the Cold War. Had those bombs not been dropped and had horrendous proof of the effect on people not been seen, I believe the likelihood of nuclear war would have been greatly increased during the Cold War.

Regarding the Meteor, I think it belongs in this game.

Skychimp,

This is a very interesting post. Maybe the deployment of the bombs as you said kept the cold-war peace. I'd never considered that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

p1ngu666
09-28-2006, 06:08 PM
MAD, mutal assured destruction.

i think the treaties limited the number of anti ICBM weapons, but not nuclear weapons http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

AKA_TAGERT
09-28-2006, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
I think estimates of allied causualties was between 2 to 5 million killed or wounded. Its not hard to justify the bomb.

I think its forgotten that the Tokyo firebombing killed twice as many as either A bomb. Good points

AKA_TAGERT
09-28-2006, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by HuninMunin:
Maybe because lifes to short to argue about facts with people wanting to see them in a certain light. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Typical responce of someone that just realised they were wrong.

AKA_TAGERT
09-28-2006, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
FDR's actions at least indicated a considerable lack of concern for the welfare of Poland, not least, resulting in it being in the Soviet sphere after WW2. Churchill was rather unhappy about this. What the US people felt is somewhat different to what FDR felt, of course.
Maybe WRT real history, but this is about the "what if" as in IF FDR had the capability to light Germany up at night with Goddards rockets without sending one man to europe he probally would have done it. He knew early on the paper hanger was a threat, weather he cared about poland or not, it would have been a good excuse to do it.