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jimmie_T
11-26-2004, 09:47 AM
I did not want to write something like this but I was so sad when I read 3.01b patch thread and I had to do this.

Demanding things because you have rights (or whatever could be called) because you paid for it. You think only about yourself. You are a customer and sufferings of the developer is none of your business. In a perspective you're right.

But think before your hurting precious developer what kind of consequences we may meet by acting like that.

It (for you) should be pretty clear that putting enormous effort and making this kind of product from business perspective, is
unquestionably not a wise decision.

Do you think there are other many ambitious developers like Oleg and his team, who are first of all, capable of creating this level of product, and second of all knowing beforehand it would definitely not be a good business (thus resulting in harder life), and still putting themselves in a challenge of this theme, and in reality now as a matter of fact being half at a risk of continuing the very project and future ones?

Why do they do that then? Have you read the "history" page of IL-2? With their high skills and intelligence, they could have created other mass-hit promised FPSs instead, making a lot of money, making much better life, while they could have also earned "reputation" such that they have now.

Why did they choose different way? It's just out of love about this theme, like us. Only for that reason they have chosen a hard way.

It is none of your personal business that pirates threatening their business. They have to do what they said. They must provide what logically they should.

Do you not think it is cruel and even reckless to demand like that, especially when your knowing that they are having rather hard time at the moment?

Yet they are trying. So, do you realize you're especially in this time, pushing them at nearly their limits? If you're like person, knowing all this and yet saying upon possible disastrous consequence - decision on terminating the project, "Ha, it sucks!" please, please GO AWAY!

Please understand this is not a pre-given billion budget project. It has not been done for the money in priority. I am not a simple blind fan but I worry about their reaching absolute limits.

Before there was a guidance of manner for this very particular forum but it looks like it's gone after forum software changes.
Their may be requests or questions here but shhould not be demands (and sometimes even sounds like threat)

I've been working all night and I have to say I was not successful in summing up what I had to say well, but I guess someone will follow putting better than I.

Please respect and appreiciate the nature of this very unique, valuable forum, which is completely different from "general forum," and which you can barely find in the world.

Thank you.

SeaFireLIV
11-26-2004, 10:11 AM
Good post.

Bakelit
11-26-2004, 11:42 AM
Agreed. Good post.

Von_Zero
11-26-2004, 11:55 AM
Agreed, hopefully wil wake some people to reality.

MEAKO
11-26-2004, 11:56 AM
I've said it before and will say it again, we are lucky to have a developer like oleg and his team who not only produce a great product but continue to support it. Over the last few years we have gained a lot of new aircraft in regular free patches.

So give the team a break they will deliver what they have promised just give them a chance to get things right first patience is whats called for.

TX-Gunslinger
11-26-2004, 12:00 PM
Bump! A thousand times.

I believe that the majority of the community is well mannered, considerate, informed and mature. A small portion, however continues to embarrass us all.

I remember the first computer I worked on, an IBM 360 model 20 with punch cards in 1975. I remember, my first PC, an Apple II plus in 1982. Even when I worked as a 3-D modeler, integrating advanced visulization techniques with ocean acoustics models on SGI workstations in the 90's, I could'nt forsee the depth and richness that is IL2FB 3.0. You could only dream then, of what we have now, and my dreams were never as beautiful and fullfilling as what Oleg and 1C have created! Both in physics modeling, and in real time rendering. The passion of the creators can be felt all the way through this product.

Unfortunatley, human beings are frail and prone to many weaknesses. The same great product which inspires some of us in more positive directions, takes others in many negative directions. A testament of this sim, is the outcome of emotion on both sides. It comes with the territory.

Il2, for me is the greatest single interactive experience ever created on a piece of silicon. Period. In a world where real choices in gaming products are becoming fewer (just like the music industry), people come to this forum to press and demand all sorts of things, most not well thought out.

First person shooters abound, and have sunk to a level where a young impressionable child, can take a baseball bat and beat up women for fun (Grand Theft Auto). How many of you out there, have taken a crack at Oleg and then got up, ran out to Best Buy and gotten your teenage kid another mindless gaming product, with no historical or teamplay significance, just so you could rush back in here and join the mob? Actually, I think it's probably worse than that, because I'm sure some of you bought the "cheat books" for the kid too. The very essence of any positive learning experience is lost then, and immediate gratification is rewarded. The IL2 series, is deep, takes time to master, rewards teamwork and long term effort at becoming a better pilot, in a historical context. What does Doom 3 provide? Now there's some great history and science!

One more thing, before I'm done...... Those of you who consistantly whine about your hard earned dollars, make me sick. How much money have you thrown away on gaming products in the past 12 months? What does you annual Blockbuster bill look like?

It's a $40 product for Pete's sake. WITH FREE UPGRADES! I won't bother to go through the CFS-3 routine, it's been done a thousand times. THIS IS THE ONLY CHOICE YOU HAVE, WHY DO YOU WANT TO DESTROY IT? When your flaming, think about who your actually talking too. A few dedicated guys in Russia and a few worldwide volunteers who selflessly dedicate their time and effort to making new models, cockpits and skins. Your'e not talking to a modern monolithic corporation! If you were, then you'd get nothing. Ref CFS-3. So stop talking to Oleg as if he were Bill Gates. If you guys were in "Lord of the Rings" you'd be complaining to Sauron about Gandalf, because his fireworks were'nt cool enough!

So, Oleg has finally braved the masses again, is posting on the Forums, attempting to interact with the public and what do you guys do? Shame on you. I can only hope that your behavior does'nt translate to the real world.

Bravo Zulu Oleg! Only your group and the LINUX guys offer any reasonable hope for the industry.

I just edited this to tone it down a little. If you saw this before the tone-down, pardon my flaming.

GT182
11-26-2004, 01:04 PM
Well, I for one wish I could shake Olegs and the team's hands for what they've done for us all. Good post jimmy_T and the rest that agree. A stop to the whining shouild have been done a long time ago.

Like I've said before, you can please some of the people some of the time but not all the people all of the time. The ones Oleg has pleased the most are the loyalest and semi-quietest fans around. The ones he can't please just don't know when to stop the whining. If they're so smart then let them do their own sim so we can b*tch at them for a change.

So to whiners I say: if you what to whine about FB and PF, take it someplace else that gives a sh*t. We sure don't! Maybe UBI can setup a place just for you guys to hear yourselves.

Ahhh, now don't go away mad... just go away.... and embarrass yourselves someplace else!

SeaFireLIV
11-27-2004, 04:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TX-Gunslinger:


If you guys were in "Lord of the Rings" you'd be complaining to Sauron about Gandalf, because his fireworks were'nt cool enough!

I can only hope that your behavior does'nt translate to the real world.
. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Somehow I think Sauron`s reaction would make sure those guys could NEVER whine again! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif And they certainly wouldn`t be able to hide behind their home pCs!

I can almost guarantee they`re behaviour doesn`t translate to the outside world. For some, the Net drives them insane when they log on! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif Probably cos they become anonymous.

joeap
11-27-2004, 04:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VVS-Manuc:
OMG..what a pity. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Sorry...software development is business as others and if a company is not able to fulfil the promises which were made 6 weeks before to the customers, this company will vanish from the market sooner or later (mostly sooner)

I you have another opinion...ok...and look closer at this picture in my signature http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Always one in every crowd. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

AI-1
11-27-2004, 06:43 AM
For me its all about perspective, IL2+FB+ACE+BOE+PF may seem to some, considerable personal investment in what could be said to be the same game. However for the lengh of time this game has held my interest and fun levels, its little input for a high return and thats discounting my optimism for any future return on what I consider meagre input (spread over 3 years). I have tried many flight sims over the years, and only four others have come close to this in their day for me; Aces series, EAW and B17I and II; yet even they have failed to maintain my interest as this series has and continues to do. But the real perspective comes from the realisation that I have also acquired over time some very expensive coasters http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif as promising titles became nothing more than expensive disappointments, permanently assigned to the coaster draw. Additionally I was shocked when I first started to lurk in these forums in 2001 to see direct customer support happen before my own eyes, unbelieveable, that had never happened in my experience before. Never have witnessed such levels of developer support and committment to their product before or since (elsewhere that is). Simply astounding and outstanding; which also sums up this series for me. In light of that, why some so forcably demonstrate discontent, as though their 'issue' destroys all pleasure/realism/playability etc is beyond me; and to argue that 'its a business and I paid my money therefore...' is one of two things (actually maybe both)

1. Clutching at straws for justification of issue of discontent.

2. Fulfilling a personal need to appear different from the majority (which also means they can use a fanboy arguement (also lame IMO) to further both of these points).

Edit: there is a third of course, and that is provocation.

If the business arguement was so valid, surely we'd all be screaming it, no wait ... its still pretty quiet out here for the majority. This is not to say that there is no validity to 'I've paid so...' arguement, its just that most keep it in perspective, and also hold faith in what Oleg and co have demonstrated time and time again: They deliver. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Next thing we'll come across is people demanding patches because they cant get the wrapping of the box after purchase, they'll come here and head up a crusade http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

tsisqua
11-27-2004, 07:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by joeap:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VVS-Manuc:
OMG..what a pity. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Sorry...software development is business as others and if a company is not able to fulfil the promises which were made 6 weeks before to the customers, this company will vanish from the market sooner or later (mostly sooner)

I you have another opinion...ok...and look closer at this picture in my signature http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Always one in every crowd. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Obscene gesture in post. I've had enough. His post has been reported.

Tsisqua

jimmie_T
11-28-2004, 01:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VVS-Manuc:
OMG..what a pity. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Sorry...software development is business as others and if a company is not able to fulfil the promises which were made 6 weeks before to the customers, this company will vanish from the market sooner or later (mostly sooner)

I you have another opinion...ok...and look closer at this picture in my signature http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have not ever worked in a software developming company where they demand further even you have been working 450 hours plus in a month for months or a year, have you?

This kind of extream working conditions can be seen in some software development. I know this because I have been through myself. You can even sometimes find programmers suddenly "disappear" and become a "missing person" --escaping from reality-- in this kind of situation. They quit working. They will NEVER do programming for work again. It's that hard.

I can easily imagine 1C:Maddox guys are working something like that. Oleg said he was angry when one of his programmers had gotten sick. But in reality, if you have ever been a leader of a project under this kind of situation, you would be able to imagine that even though Oleg stated that he was angry, he could not push the guy who got sick too much. Because he must have been pretty at his limits.

I write like very sympathetic to them because I can clearly imagine what's like in there.

I know it is none of your business again, however, am I perhaps giving you some idea about how stuff like Il2 is made?

Say things like you wrote after you actually see working environment like that. It is NOT typical working environment. Yes, there are software companies where you will not find this kind of craziness. But this one, 1C:Maddox is the one I'm describing, I'm telling you.

What you're playing is a re****ant of this kind of work. They have been almost their limits and edge for YEARS. I see Oleg be a very strong, patient person. Even a person like that is crying, and if you know, he said sometime ago that he would not do this level of life-destructing work again. That I see he be at his near limits.

If you are able to understand this, you should be able to know how to speak in front of the man. You push a bit more, it is possible even the strongest man can not hold anymore. Yes, everything is his choice and he does not HAVE TO do like this. But probably because his character of perfectionist must drive him and maybe he can't help it. We should thank for that, tho.

zaelu
11-28-2004, 02:32 AM
Some guys are realy amasing... how they know everything about airplane engines (all of them at once), about FMs and DMs. They know when a plane is not working how it should or change a bit in 10 minutes after a patch relese. That plane is not turning how it should, that plane is not braking apart how it should, not diving, not climbing, not rolling... etc. They must be the summ of all engineers and test pilots of WW2 encarnated and released upon evil sim builders from 1C. No! Wait! They are other WW2 air sim developers, and their sim is way ahead this.... IL2+FB+AEP+PF. We just didnt hered about them or their product. They fly all day their WW2 planes... (the real ones) and then they come here and share all this valuable cr... errr data... And we are so unrespectfull. Oleg must have some very good loughs every day...
I think that places like ORR are for constructive criticism.... for those that have a very large definition of that moderators should take action. Trash is for trash.
And that "I payed hard earned money for this..." argumment makes me sick... I dont think they are so hard earned since they dont recognise hard work...

JG5_UnKle
11-28-2004, 03:20 AM
Wrong forum for starters http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The ORR was set up in the first place so that the dev team could get feedback from users of the product. Good or bad.

Coming forward with data and attempting to improve the sim and it's fidelity is not whining.

jimmie_T
11-28-2004, 04:56 AM
Yeah, I do know that. I even wrote a message to Ivan about that... I just couldn't help http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Bearcat99
11-28-2004, 09:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG5_UnKle:
Wrong forum for starters http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The ORR was set up in the first place so that the dev team could get feedback from users of the product. Good or bad.

Coming forward with data and attempting to improve the sim and it's fidelity is not whining. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Yeah but insulting the developer after he explains why things are delayed ... with a very good explanation mind you- or why there is no dedicated server yet-because the thing isnt done.. remember we still have to get the second CDs stuff is. Even his explanation for why the sim was released as a 2 CD product instead of 3 was totally ignored. All feedback positive or negative is good. Some of this stuff just isnt. All this flaming would be justifiable if 1C had the reputation for NOT standing behind their product and delivering but that is not the case. So what do some of the idiots here do? The developer pops up his head and it gets bitten off by several members. We dont know what the full circumstances are behind the release of all this stuff and it isnt our place to decide when things are released. It is our responsibility to report flaws in as constructive a manner as possible ie one that the developer will be able to get the right info from and make neccessary adjustments to the product..... so that the product can be made better. Not smack him upside the head with what amounts to charges of bias,incompetence,and shady character... which is what people who lie to their customers have. Stuff happens the man explains all this... apologizes.... says it will be corrected and still gets reamed.. about things out of his control. Thats how you keep a developer interested in supporting his product in the same consistent manner that he has for years... unlike 98% of the other developers out here... you insult him and his product. Yeah..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Read my post at the top of the GD. I am not playing. Ask Manuc when he gets back off vacation.

DangerForward
11-28-2004, 10:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by joeap:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VVS-Manuc:
OMG..what a pity. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Sorry...software development is business as others and if a company is not able to fulfil the promises which were made 6 weeks before to the customers, this company will vanish from the market sooner or later (mostly sooner)

I you have another opinion...ok...and look closer at this picture in my signature http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Always one in every crowd. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What I don't understand is if people are so dis-satisfied why they don't just return the software for a refund and begone. It hasn't been thirty days yet since the game came out, plus certain credit cards give you 3+ months to return something. Why put up with something you don't like, just return it and leave the rest of us alone. Being polite(and realistic) is a basic tenet of getting what you want, if you don't get that this product isn't for you. It's simple.

JG5_UnKle
11-28-2004, 10:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG5_UnKle:
Wrong forum for starters http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The ORR was set up in the first place so that the dev team could get feedback from users of the product. Good or bad.

Coming forward with data and attempting to improve the sim and it's fidelity is not whining. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Yeah but insulting the developer after he explains why things are delayed ... with a very good explanation mind you- or why there is no dedicated server yet-because the thing isnt done.. remember we still have to get the second CDs stuff is. Even his explanation for why the sim was released as a 2 CD product instead of 3 was totally ignored. All feedback positive or negative is good. Some of this stuff just isnt. All this flaming would be justifiable if 1C had the reputation for NOT standing behind their product and delivering but that is not the case. So what do some of the idiots here do? The developer pops up his head and it gets bitten off by several members. We dont know what the full circumstances are behind the release of all this stuff and it isnt our place to decide when things are released. It is our responsibility to report flaws in as constructive a manner as possible ie one that the developer will be able to get the right info from and make neccessary adjustments to the product..... so that the product can be made better. Not smack him upside the head with what amounts to charges of bias,incompetence,and shady character... which is what people who lie to their customers have. Stuff happens the man explains all this... apologizes.... says it will be corrected and still gets reamed.. about things out of his control. Thats how you keep a developer interested in supporting his product in the same consistent manner that he has for years... unlike 98% of the other developers out here... you insult him and his product. Yeah..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Read my post at the top of the GD. I am not playing. Ask Manuc when he gets back off vacation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, insulting the developer get's us nowhere, but sometimes this isn't the case. I hadn't read the last lot of flame wars (and I won't bother) and it's just a shame that everything get's drowned out by the usual suspects.

Even reasonable threads can go down the drain http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

dragonhart38
11-29-2004, 03:17 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif