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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 04:08 PM
Dear pilots,

I am bringing you some information about my research into possibilities of improving the sound environment with regards to removing the infamous "sonar".

First of all I would like to thank Mr. Maddox for his unbelievable patience. We have exchanged many e-mails regarding the sonar/sound issues and his patience is truly admirable same as his knowledge of current technology and his devotion to his simulator.

What I found out is that sounds are as they are because COCKPIT SOUNDS and EXTERNAL SOUNDS are tied together and one can not be changed without other. In other words: if there is a change in cockpit sounds there is automatically a change in external view sounds as well.

So by lowering the volume of enemy engine sound in internal/cockpit environment the same enemy engine sound would be lowered in the external environment as well.

This would mean that if changes were made, the enemy engine sound in cockpit environment would be realistically low - almost unnoticeable (finally) and enemy engine sound in external view environment would be "unrealistically" silent or close to unnoticeable.

Both views´ sound environments can not be perfect with current technology available mainly due to the limited dynamic range of current sound cards.

By having one view perfect or close to perfect, the other view will suffer.

So what we have to do now is to decide which view is the more important to us, which one will be the perfect one and which one will have to suffer: cockpit view or external view?

Before you vote, please download and take a look at this little 3.5MB video:

http://193.179.236.40/kyza/p51_bye.avi

It should help you understand how (aproximately) loud is an enemy engine in your own cockpit when the enemy is VERY close to you...

There is also another 125MB video here showing how much you hear of a tow plane´s engine in a glider aprox. 50m behind the tow plane:

http://193.179.236.40/kyza/csl_jicin.avi

If you have any other videos with sounds...warbirds in formations...please post the links here...


Vote now please:

A - Cockpit environment sounds are more important to me and I am willing to accept unrealistically silent external environment sounds to have the realistic cocpit sound environment.

B - External sounds are more important to me and I am NOT willing to accept unrealistically silent external environment to get the realistic sound environment in cockpit.

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 04:08 PM
Dear pilots,

I am bringing you some information about my research into possibilities of improving the sound environment with regards to removing the infamous "sonar".

First of all I would like to thank Mr. Maddox for his unbelievable patience. We have exchanged many e-mails regarding the sonar/sound issues and his patience is truly admirable same as his knowledge of current technology and his devotion to his simulator.

What I found out is that sounds are as they are because COCKPIT SOUNDS and EXTERNAL SOUNDS are tied together and one can not be changed without other. In other words: if there is a change in cockpit sounds there is automatically a change in external view sounds as well.

So by lowering the volume of enemy engine sound in internal/cockpit environment the same enemy engine sound would be lowered in the external environment as well.

This would mean that if changes were made, the enemy engine sound in cockpit environment would be realistically low - almost unnoticeable (finally) and enemy engine sound in external view environment would be "unrealistically" silent or close to unnoticeable.

Both views´ sound environments can not be perfect with current technology available mainly due to the limited dynamic range of current sound cards.

By having one view perfect or close to perfect, the other view will suffer.

So what we have to do now is to decide which view is the more important to us, which one will be the perfect one and which one will have to suffer: cockpit view or external view?

Before you vote, please download and take a look at this little 3.5MB video:

http://193.179.236.40/kyza/p51_bye.avi

It should help you understand how (aproximately) loud is an enemy engine in your own cockpit when the enemy is VERY close to you...

There is also another 125MB video here showing how much you hear of a tow plane´s engine in a glider aprox. 50m behind the tow plane:

http://193.179.236.40/kyza/csl_jicin.avi

If you have any other videos with sounds...warbirds in formations...please post the links here...


Vote now please:

A - Cockpit environment sounds are more important to me and I am willing to accept unrealistically silent external environment sounds to have the realistic cocpit sound environment.

B - External sounds are more important to me and I am NOT willing to accept unrealistically silent external environment to get the realistic sound environment in cockpit.

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 04:09 PM
A...

...is my vote.

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 04:46 PM
A

Maybe, if you fly with Externals, you may see the Advantage for you by hearing the Enemyplane and being able to avoid its Attack . I would have voted so to, Months ago. But sooner or later you will change to Full-Real , just because of the new Challenge and the completly new required Skills compared to flying with Externals. Then you will wish for the possebility to surprise the Enemy, and vote A. Believe me ....

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 04:48 PM
A is what i vote and want!

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 04:56 PM
Not trying to sidetrack the poll - but...

Would it be possible to have it as an option ?

If there is a general volume masterswitch - why not be able to turn it up or down - serverside ?



C!

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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 05:19 PM
Kocour, I salute your dedication to this issue and perserverance! It's nice to finally hear what Oleg has to say about it, and as I suspected being more of a technical issue than one based on misinformation.

I think the nature of this "sim" aspiring to be more realistic than game-like automatically calls for the compromise to lean towards "A".

Obviously, my vote would be for...

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Cheers



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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 06:17 PM
Vote is 'A'

And CSL_Cocour that's an 'A' quality post



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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 06:48 PM
Salute Kocour!!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Thx you for posting this!! It is a MAIN matter in the game (those using BnZ and surprize attacks know why/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

In name of all VO101:



"A" is the vote!!!

Hope to c u in Lobby!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

S!

Mahgar

http://membres.lycos.fr/messzer/avatar/mahgar8.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 06:51 PM
I have been reading in the pilot memoirs - engine sounds were deafening.

Respectfully - A


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 07:12 PM
------>A


It´s important for realistic tactic.

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 07:33 PM
A


And would the behavior of ai aircraft also change to represent being able to sneak up on them as well?

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 08:38 PM
hi,

A for sure

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 09:04 PM
A

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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 09:45 PM
There is no way Maddox is going to wreck the external sound for a small minority of online users. The only way it would be accetable is if were an option that could be toggled in online play.

On my setup I can't hear other planes unless they are very, very close anyway. It certainly doesn't prevent me from being bounced.

If there was a patch that would eliminate external engine sounds I would certainly not install it.

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 10:05 PM
Sorry, I'm confused.

Why can't we just have a switch and select either/or.

When I run tracks I really enjoy the sounds.

When I fly cockpit or hud I really enjoy the sounds.

IF either/or is a choice now. You could still have both, because if it can be done at all for either; then it could be done for either/or with a switch.

So...all we need is a switch in the input setups so that we can select the sound theatre we want. Who cares if we have a bigger executable software...just gimme some more dlls won't matter on 100Gig HDD anyway.

I think you'll probably find I'm not alone in this. Oleg, has tried to give us the best of both worlds.

I love the sound of the Spitfire in Rowan's BOB on the flybye. It is awesome, but inside the cockpit it sounds like a guttural washing machine.

----------------- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 10:48 PM
It worked just fine in IL-2

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 10:58 PM
A

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RichardI
09-10-2003, 10:59 PM
I have to vote for........BOTH!

It really seems a shame that the sounds in this game are soooo bad. They don't sound anything like real life. It's the only area of this game that isn't done really well (IMO).
I honestly don't see why we can't have "perfect" for sound as well. I'll bet Oleg himself has recognised this deficiency in the game and has plans to correct it.

Rich /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<Center>http://www.ghosts.com/images/postimages/THUNDERBOLT.jpg <Center>I've got 140 109's cornered over Berlin!

XyZspineZyX
09-11-2003, 12:33 AM
My sound is porked in all versions after 1.0. I can't hear any planes behind me at all....can't hear bullet hits on my plane....my engine sounds die when I fire my guns....etc.

But...I hear incredibly loud and distorted flak sounds (although there is no flak around me) and the sounds of tanks and artillery firing from miles away.

Can I still vote?

Aviar

----------------------------------
AMD XP 2600+
EPoX EP-8K9AI Mobo
1536Mb DDR PC 2100 RAM
ATI Radeon 9700 Pro
SoundBlaster Audigy
Klipsch 5.1 THX Certified Speakers
CH FighterStick USB
CH Pro Throttle USB
CH Pro Pedals USB
Thrustmaster Tacticalboard

XyZspineZyX
09-11-2003, 12:45 AM
A

XyZspineZyX
09-11-2003, 12:47 AM
I read a recent posting with a similar issue as yours...

The suggested solution was to go into the conf.ini, to the [sound] section and lower the value of attenuation.

I'm believing that tweaking the sound may just be as big an issue as tuning the video /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

-------------- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-11-2003, 01:29 AM
Pilot of real plane in real world with his engine working do not hear anything else only his own engine screaming.

I'm voting A!!!

XyZspineZyX
09-11-2003, 01:37 AM
A


B is for weanies!!! LOL

S!
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XyZspineZyX
09-11-2003, 01:52 AM
A!

No question.
I'd love it if we could have both choices, but since it's aparently not possible, then I can't even imagine why anyone would vote for B.

6BL-idonno
REALISM RULES!

XyZspineZyX
09-11-2003, 02:30 AM
A!!!!!
A!!!!!
A!!!!!!!

sorry, got carried away there.
WYS
AB_Onedoc

XyZspineZyX
09-11-2003, 04:23 AM
A


Just a coupla questions. You said that we could not have both. The only issue that why is it that the original il2, you could hear enemy aircraft zoom past you beautifully and this il2 FB, you really cannot hear that? Just comparing one older sim to one newer one.

Also, what kind of soundcard would we need ( futuristicly speaking ) to render the sound the WAY IT WAS MEANT TO BE?

Leben Sie heute, für morgen zu k¤mpfen

XyZspineZyX
09-11-2003, 06:04 AM
A

And how about being able to pick up those weapons firing from miles away. I am beginning to this this sim is a roller coaster with sounds and FMs..........

Its also common knowledge that over 90%(the percentage varies but its close) of all kills made in WW2 were from sneak up and suprise. Thats how Hartmann got 352 of them and he admitted to that.



Message Edited on 09/11/03 05:07AM by IV_JG51_Swine

Message Edited on 09/11/0305:09AM by IV_JG51_Swine

XyZspineZyX
09-11-2003, 06:52 AM
I VOTE for

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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!


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XyZspineZyX
09-11-2003, 10:27 AM
Funny thing: in "European Air War" I was able to fine tune the volume of internal/external/engine sounds...

And it was BACK IN 1998!!!

Now don't tell me it's technologically impossible in 2003...
The point is that IL-2 game engine is getting old and the developers won't be spending time on such drudgery like rewriting major parts of the code without sizeable surge of money. They'll start developing new title, rather than waste time in previous one, which was already sold and won't bring more money home.

The solution could be some EAX filter that would be dampening the volume of external sound sources exclusively while we're sitting in the cockpit (where "we" as a sound source make 100% volume gain). This is just a speculation...



R. "Rola" Skibicki

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XyZspineZyX
09-11-2003, 11:48 AM
Hi all,

My vote would be A. I dont always fly full reall, but the most "sim like" full reall option, should prefere.

XyZspineZyX
09-11-2003, 01:17 PM
I vote 'A'

I don't mind if external sound is not so real, external view is not realistic anyway... This would be a BIG improvement of online gaming...

XyZspineZyX
09-11-2003, 04:33 PM
I dont agree that Oleg and team would not make efforts to perfectionate an already sold game. They did that all the way with Il2, and they are doing lot of work with FB. I hope this can be solved in a way, as it is ridicuous to hear shots and engines of planes kms away, like they would be just behind u... I even can hear the throttle% of my wingiehttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Thats maybe ok in CFS3, but not in a serious sim!!

S!
Mahgar

ps. I voted already, but Ill try to vote twice: A!http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

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XyZspineZyX
09-11-2003, 06:27 PM
Seeing as the FW190 and late 109's flight envelope has been seriously depreciated with the introdution of the 1.11 patch. The bounce is all we have left.
I vote "A".
~S~ Kocour. Thank you for your hard work.

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 10:28 AM
A

and a bump


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XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 10:39 AM
i wonder why pilots in WW2 were told that gotta look around ya all the time when flying. in FB reality all u gotta do is keeping ur ear devises in listening mode.

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 10:54 AM
A

When I fly in real life, the most noise i've heard from outside the cockpit was when a two-ship of tornado F3s took off whilst i was holding short (with full afterburner). I couldn't have been more than 50ft from them. Even then it comes across as a deep rumble. When one overtook me in a circuit 200ft above and about 100ft left I heard nothing with my engine at around 2300rpm.

Flying formation I am unaware of the noise of the lead aircraft, or even the other if in a three-ship: but then i was concentrating quite hard. This was only in a 180Hp engined a/c, but the effect was the same during the number of times i have flown in a Hawk T1 (fast jet for those that don't know).

Sm

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 11:55 AM
A - but why the new sound engine when it worked well in IL2? The new sound has caused so many problems & is really pulling the sim down IMO. They shouldn´t have changed it after all when we still got sonar which was after all the reason why they reworked the whole thing.

S!

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XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 12:38 PM
I was told that dynamic range of current sound cards is too bad to ensure realistic cockpit sound environment and loud enough external sound environment in one sound engine.

So I proposed a compromise of decreasing the sound of enemy engine by at least 1/3 which could help at least a little bit and locking the attenuation to 0 and deleting the line from ini so that "sonar" lovers could not cheat and tweak their sonars to the best "far ranging" performance.

The switch in realism panel - realistic cockpit sounds ON/OFF - would be of course the best solution but that would probably require two separate sound engines and it would be of course lotsa work and because it is only "full real flying online pilots" (Only 5% FB pilots fly online and only 3% of them fly full real - I was told) who want this feature, it is simply too little demand to justify a change in an allready finished sim.

It is a shame that the sim was finished with such a serious bug as "sonar" that basically lessens its value by 100% as the "sonar" prevents FB pilots from using the most common air combat tactics of WWII days (quite common in WWI too) called "surprise attack". Any serious sim should make this tactics possible IMO. Any sim that does not make "surprise attack" possible can not be called a realistic one.

I tried my best to help but this is all that I could have done. I understand the reasons why it can not be done the way we would like it and it looks like we will simply have to live with it or hope that some little change will at least help us from the worst - meaning decreasing the enemy engine sound level by some reasonable part (compromise between offline and online comunity) and modifying the attenuation as I (after Jurinko´s advice) suggested.

If there is no such little change, all we can do now (in terms of sound/sonar) is wait (and suffer from sonar disease) couple years till the completely new sim Oleg is making now (expected release: spring 2005) because he said that everything in it will be even more realistic, than I suggested...

Cheers /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

,,,^..^,,,



Message Edited on 09/12/0311:42AM by CSL_Kocour

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 12:52 PM
No compromise needed.

Read StickMonkey's post - isn't that enough to realize?

Last night i heard 109's coming to bounce me, I heard gunfire over 5km away.

That is wrong.

BnZ pilots are the most effected - all that work to setup a good BnZ to be spoiled over and over again because of a badly modelled sound engine???

No compromise needed.


Edit: only 3% of 5% fly full real? Guess that is the problem. Maybe a server side control then?

S!
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Message Edited on 09/12/0311:54AM by Recon_609IAP

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 01:10 PM
There is no doubt about how it is in real life and no doubt that it is wrong in FB...but the reason why it is wrong is that current soundcards cant do both in one sound engine and "couple freaks" who want it as real as it WAS is not enough of a motive to make another engine sound and a switch in realism panel...probably

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 01:34 PM
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