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View Full Version : A few questions about campaigns, and upcoming BoB



dravisar
03-15-2006, 02:09 AM
Keep in mind ive been playing for a couple years off and on, but this is what I know so far:

From what I understand, the campaigns are not dynamic in any sense of the word in this game. Basically you choose a country, then aircraft type/mission, then model...and it randomly generates a mission on the date that your campaign starts, and randomly inserts specific border changes and such on certain dates completely unrelated to your actions, correct?

So for instance, I started an JABO campaign, the FW190A5. Ive played multiple campaigns of this type, following orders and bombing what they tell me to. But this time im doing a lone eagle thing. I take off, and attack the same airfield...sometimes it launches aircraft, but they always seem to vector towards my AI wingmen and im almost completely ignored, and they never react to me bombing their airbase.

This is all scripted correct? as in...the coordinates they vector to are related to the coordinates that my AI wingmen are flying to...they never take off to intercept ME, right?

This is always how ive understood things to go..and although its fun, is BoB going to have dynamic campaigns, where if im flight lead, and I take my squadron to completely flatten an enemy airfield, that fields usefulness to the enemy will be much decreased for the next few missions? and will they launch AC to meet my squadron once I get within a certain range?

This always frustrated me...the dogfighting and JABO fun is there, but the AI is limited to seeing you once they are off the ground and in their "sight" range; and they dont even take off unless its scripted for them to do so.

I guess other than dynamic campaigns, id also like to see the option for an arcade style of gameplay (much like BoBII, which SUCKS) where I can select a squadron of bombers one mission, fighters the next, if im so inclined, to level runways, ships and road convoys at my own discretion to affect the dynamic campaign.

Believe me I love this game, just pointing out some of my needs for BoB that I havent seen many comment on yet http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Also, Id really like to see a patch that let us change aircraft mid campaign, maybe once we have made a certain rank etc. Or maybe just a realism option we can toggle to allow us to change to different aircraft of that timeframe/country.

Maybe im just thinking outloud...but im pretty sure many sims these days allow this.

diabloblanco1
03-15-2006, 08:29 AM
Who knows other than Oleg & Co.? I agree with your description of what a dynamic campaign is supposed to look like. It has been done by other flight sims for more than a decade.

However, I strongly doubt Oleg & Co. will ever adapt this proven system. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif

FlatSpinMan
03-15-2006, 08:32 AM
I have never used it but doesn't that Dynamic Campaign Generator(DCG) utility by Paul Lowengrin allow you to have a real impact on events? Someone who knows should be along soon.

Chuck_Older
03-15-2006, 09:49 AM
The campaigns are dynamic in many senses of the word.

When people read the word 'dynamic' they make up their minds as to what it means, and when they see it doesn't fit with their idea, they say it isn't dynamic

Well, the sim keeps track of the points you get while playing, and it allocates awards and promotions based on that

Dravisar, what you are talking about is dynamic mission making in some ways. That's different from the dynamic quality of the campaign itself. When you see enemy AI that always flies to the same spot when you retry the mission, and the mission is scripted, that's not the campaign per se, that the mission. We have been asking for trigger events in mission making for a loooong time. Also, probability events would be good too- ther is a 50% chance of a flight of Hurricanes spawning at X airbase at Y time, if the player flies to Z location.

That's the mission's shortcoming, not the campaign though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The campaign is limited by the capabilities of mission making

UCLANUPE
03-15-2006, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
We have been asking for trigger events in mission making for a loooong time. Also, probability events would be good too- ther is a 50% chance of a flight of Hurricanes spawning at X airbase at Y time, if the player flies to Z location.

That's the mission's shortcoming, not the campaign though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The campaign is limited by the capabilities of mission making

(FANBOYS I LIKE OLEG TOO SO DO NOT ATTACK ME FOR AN OPINION)

As a person that has built thousands of missions over the years, this is truly something that hurts the quality of this sim.

Anyone that has mission builder exp. with other flight sims and uses this one, knows what I mean. The lack of triggers is just one feature missing but it HUGELY effects the campaigns and is the reason they suck like warm cheese.

Other things missing are too numerous to go into, however it would be nice if "someone" from 1C would fire up F-18 and check out how a "real mission builder" is made. Just some friendly advice.

MadMacgunner
03-15-2006, 11:37 AM
hello,guys.I write in few occasions,but i want to say that what you say is not related to campaigns themselves,but to AI use for the game or mission erros, like bombing tanks from 5900m with a He111.These are the worst errors i find.When you are sent to bomb an objetive you can´t see from such an awesome distance or your companions are unable to use a leves bombing to hit a bridge and they start to div.Those are hwever fails on the AI program, not of the campaign system.



Vista,suerte y al toro
GArcia MOrato, Spanish civi War pilot.

dravisar
03-15-2006, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
The campaigns are dynamic in many senses of the word.

When people read the word 'dynamic' they make up their minds as to what it means, and when they see it doesn't fit with their idea, they say it isn't dynamic

Well, the sim keeps track of the points you get while playing, and it allocates awards and promotions based on that

Dravisar, what you are talking about is dynamic mission making in some ways. That's different from the dynamic quality of the campaign itself. When you see enemy AI that always flies to the same spot when you retry the mission, and the mission is scripted, that's not the campaign per se, that the mission. We have been asking for trigger events in mission making for a loooong time. Also, probability events would be good too- ther is a 50% chance of a flight of Hurricanes spawning at X airbase at Y time, if the player flies to Z location.

That's the mission's shortcoming, not the campaign though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The campaign is limited by the capabilities of mission making

Well there are varying ideas on what a dynamic campaign really is, but in my mind its like mixing a strategy game with a simulation. The game simply tracks every single piece of military hardware on the battlefield, and when one is destroyed, it doesnt come back.

The only thing that is tracked currently is the amount of aircraft your squadron has, and I've never had the opportunity or care to actually run out of aircraft, so it may be a moot point.

Getting promotions is pretty useless imho, when all it allows you to do is command your aircraft to do certain things. In my mind, you should actually be given some real operational control over the squadrons actions in the grand scheme of things, as in JABO'ing airfields to death to suppress the enemies aircover in future missions .

Its extremely complicated, but like diablo says, other sims have done this for years. I loved Close Combat 3's system of pushing back and forth, and on certain historical dates, the enemy would be resupplied, or cut off, and easier to beat. You could also select higher quality weaponry to use in battle as you ranked up, and it made it that much more enjoyable.

Chuck_Older
03-15-2006, 03:34 PM
The players seem to like getting rewarded for succeeding, I like getting promoted http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I like getting medals, too. It's a nice reward for doing well.

I'm not sure an operational commander influenced mission choice all that much...in real life, you would have an Intelligence officer and a staff getting orders from higher ranks at divisional HQ as to what missions need to be done: here is the list of missions you undertake this day or week, or on X date. Plan them and fly them-

But- not choose them. I absolutely hate the way CFS3 makes you do that. I also disagree that a unit CO would be able to get to choose which airplanes he gets to fly- he might choose an individual aircraft, but he's not getting access to the newest best plane type until supply catches up with him and his unit, and the planes get delivered http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif In WWII, the US pilots in the Med for example, got trained as P-51 pilots...and then they were assigned to Spit MkVs, because P-51 production hadn't met demad yet, although technically the plane was available...it wasn't available to them

But God yes does campaign structure and mission building need an overhaul.

Tully__
03-15-2006, 05:56 PM
The "dynamic" campaigns in this game are not strategically dynamic (you can't win the war if you're playing for the team that lost) but they are tactically dynamic (if you take out all the AA at a base there'll be little or no AA there if you fly over it in a subsequent mission within a few days. Also, the more enemy you knock down the fewer enemy will come to meet you on subsequent missions (until they've had time to re-supply) and the more squadmates you lose the less support you'll have in subsequent missions (again until re-supply).

As for the AI enemy not defending their base when you take a side trip, that's a limitation of the AI that seems to apply in all play modes (single mission/campaign/online coop) where they wont be aggressive or defensive when they're in "cruise to target area" mode. New mission builders frequently stumble against this inadequacy in the AI when they start building "surprise attack" missions, the AI wont start fighting until they're nearly at or past their first Escort/Attack/Defend waypoint and sometimes not even then. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

WarWolfe_1
03-15-2006, 06:07 PM
catch AI in landing pattern and they don't break off, they just keeping flying the loop http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif. I've stumbled on airbases while lost and trying to head back home on occasion, or followed them ther, same results everytime.

CombatAce_MK2
03-15-2006, 06:09 PM
The campaings are tactically dynamic. DGEN stands for dynamic campaign generator.

The misisons are NOT scripted if you use DGEN.

dravisar
03-16-2006, 05:33 AM
Originally posted by CombatAce_MK2:
The campaings are tactically dynamic. DGEN stands for dynamic campaign generator.

The misisons are NOT scripted if you use DGEN.

I would like to politely say...no.

Your wrong...I can flatten an airbase, and a day or two later according to dgen, all its AAA is up and so are its ground targets.