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View Full Version : 109 is porked, FW190 is porked, Yak is porked.....



XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 01:05 PM
I have read (and downloaded) hundreds of pages of people complaining about the performance of the FB planes patch after patch versus their historical performance and versus the other fighters.

I have seen people making tests to prove that the I-16s are faster accelerating climbing than the 109s for a full 3 seconds ! (great...)

I have seen people posting threads accusing Oleg of "anti-americanism/ anti-germanism(?!)" (well something sort of "Russians against the rest of the world").
I only hope Oleg's English has not improved and he does not spend time reading the rubbish written in this forum about him.

What I never understood is:
Is everybody posting in this forum complaining about
-- Off line gaming or,
-- On-line gaming ?

The magnificent part of this game is the fact that you can play it online. Hyperlobby helped that tremendously.
Someone quoted someone 8 months ago that "online gamers are less than 10% of the IL2FB community". I can not comment on that.
But it appears to me than 90% of the postings I read refer to online dogfighting.

To all those flying online and complaining I have only three points to make:


1. Read this: http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_065a.html

2. IF YOU FLY ONLINE
2.a When was the last time you flew with a wingman and asked him to clear your tail?
2.b When was the last time you trained some tactics with your wingman?

Instead of complaining whether your plane does this or that compared to version XYZ year 1234 etc etc you may find it EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE to inform your wingman about your next turn move BEFOREHAND so that he can close the distance between him and the bandit following you.
With this in mind, it does not matter whether you fly the TAE152 or the Brewster Buffalo.

The only very famous flyer who made his kills flying solo is Erich Hartmann (it fits his personal character who also put him in a lot of trouble after the war...).
I am sure there are must have been others as well (presumably many Japanese aces) but, 99,99% of the pilots in WWII were flying in teams.

3. IF DO NOT FLY ONLINE
3.a When was the last time you flew with a wingman and asked him to clear your tail?
3.b When was the last time YOU flew wingman and covered your leader?

4. When was the last time you trained flying NOT in the direction your nose is pointing to?
I hear a lot of people complaining online about the "kevlar hull" of my 109. It is just in the IL2 manual...maybe I sould keep this to myself, the second best exploit after RBJ's "trim on a slider"... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


I really wish I could read more in this forum about wingman tactics instead of lengthy tests of radiator settings....


No offence guys but I am getting mad about the amount of posting (and flamming) about "details" and the inadequate search function of the Ubi forum.


S!

we may see each other in HL but not with this name. When I am in front of you, check YOUR SIX!

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 01:05 PM
I have read (and downloaded) hundreds of pages of people complaining about the performance of the FB planes patch after patch versus their historical performance and versus the other fighters.

I have seen people making tests to prove that the I-16s are faster accelerating climbing than the 109s for a full 3 seconds ! (great...)

I have seen people posting threads accusing Oleg of "anti-americanism/ anti-germanism(?!)" (well something sort of "Russians against the rest of the world").
I only hope Oleg's English has not improved and he does not spend time reading the rubbish written in this forum about him.

What I never understood is:
Is everybody posting in this forum complaining about
-- Off line gaming or,
-- On-line gaming ?

The magnificent part of this game is the fact that you can play it online. Hyperlobby helped that tremendously.
Someone quoted someone 8 months ago that "online gamers are less than 10% of the IL2FB community". I can not comment on that.
But it appears to me than 90% of the postings I read refer to online dogfighting.

To all those flying online and complaining I have only three points to make:


1. Read this: http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_065a.html

2. IF YOU FLY ONLINE
2.a When was the last time you flew with a wingman and asked him to clear your tail?
2.b When was the last time you trained some tactics with your wingman?

Instead of complaining whether your plane does this or that compared to version XYZ year 1234 etc etc you may find it EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE to inform your wingman about your next turn move BEFOREHAND so that he can close the distance between him and the bandit following you.
With this in mind, it does not matter whether you fly the TAE152 or the Brewster Buffalo.

The only very famous flyer who made his kills flying solo is Erich Hartmann (it fits his personal character who also put him in a lot of trouble after the war...).
I am sure there are must have been others as well (presumably many Japanese aces) but, 99,99% of the pilots in WWII were flying in teams.

3. IF DO NOT FLY ONLINE
3.a When was the last time you flew with a wingman and asked him to clear your tail?
3.b When was the last time YOU flew wingman and covered your leader?

4. When was the last time you trained flying NOT in the direction your nose is pointing to?
I hear a lot of people complaining online about the "kevlar hull" of my 109. It is just in the IL2 manual...maybe I sould keep this to myself, the second best exploit after RBJ's "trim on a slider"... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


I really wish I could read more in this forum about wingman tactics instead of lengthy tests of radiator settings....


No offence guys but I am getting mad about the amount of posting (and flamming) about "details" and the inadequate search function of the Ubi forum.


S!

we may see each other in HL but not with this name. When I am in front of you, check YOUR SIX!

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 03:27 PM
Manos1 wrote:
Snipped


- To all those flying online and complaining I have
- only three points to make:
-
-
- 1. Read this: <a
- href="http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_065a.html"
- target=_blank>http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_065a.h
- tml</a>
-
- 2. IF YOU FLY ONLINE
- 2.a When was the last time you flew with a wingman
- and asked him to clear your tail?
- 2.b When was the last time you trained some tactics
- with your wingman?
-
- Instead of complaining whether your plane does this
- or that compared to version XYZ year 1234 etc etc
- you may find it EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE to inform your
- wingman about your next turn move BEFOREHAND so that
- he can close the distance between him and the bandit
- following you.
- With this in mind, it does not matter whether you
- fly the TAE152 or the Brewster Buffalo.
-
- The only very famous flyer who made his kills flying
- solo is Erich Hartmann (it fits his personal
- character who also put him in a lot of trouble after
- the war...).
- I am sure there are must have been others as well
- (presumably many Japanese aces) but, 99,99% of the
- pilots in WWII were flying in teams.
-
- 3. IF DO NOT FLY ONLINE
- 3.a When was the last time you flew with a wingman
- and asked him to clear your tail?
- 3.b When was the last time YOU flew wingman and
- covered your leader?
-
- 4. When was the last time you trained flying NOT in
- the direction your nose is pointing to?
- I hear a lot of people complaining online about the
- "kevlar hull" of my 109. It is just in the IL2
- manual...maybe I sould keep this to myself, the
- second best exploit after RBJ's "trim on a
- slider"... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
-
- I really wish I could read more in this forum about
- wingman tactics instead of lengthy tests of radiator
- settings.... .........................................



Good points. In Df games I see alot of "Lone Wolves". They zoom around chaseing anything and everything. One attacks another and another goes after him. Like a shark feeding frenzy. The servers that turn off the icons encourage this. I find this too chaotic. Working as a team is more rewarding and the reason I joined a group strong on unit tactics.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid79/p9141f290fa1c1c59a2dc382c77af21f3/fb1a8321.jpg


Lead Whiner for the P-47D-30, M and N and Hvars

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 07:33 PM
Sniper762x51 wrote:

- They zoom around chaseing anything and everything. One attacks another and another goes after him.

There is better than this. When three go against one plane at the same time...

I realised this when last week instead of flying my 109 K-4 I flew the Brewster Buffalo with my squadron.

We wanted some time to relax so we went with 5 Buffalos in a dogfight server and beat the sh... out of everybody else.
It was astrange feeling flying around our base looking at all the piles of smoke from downed bandits everywhere.

And suddently all bandits stopped flying their YAKs, MIGs, LAs etc and came against us flying I-16s.
Didn't help that much, though.

Interestingly enough, I have seen very few postings talking about wingman strategy (AI or online).

It's a pity because now the game starts getting interesting....

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 07:37 PM
very well said...im thinkin the same thing /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Steaks
375th FS

Is it Pets Mart...or Pet Smart????

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 07:41 PM
Agreed 100%

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XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 07:42 PM
Good post! I play offline most of the time, and although I don't engage in complex team tactics (they are not possible with AI pilots), I cover my wingman's back and at the same time I call for help when I have a bandit glued on my six. It is true that most WWII pilots were not lonely bounty hunters, but flyed and fought in teams.
I fly many different planes, from the I-16 to the Me-262, and manage to score lots of kills playing in almost full real settings. I guess the trick is not to compare planes one on one, but to exploit the strengths of your aircraft and the weaknesses of your oponent's.

GATO_LOCO

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 08:12 PM
For a good overvew of VVS's problems I suggest reading the chapter on air operation in The battle for Kursk Soviet General Staff Study. Your library might have it (mine has several of such studies).

It can be summarized as bad tactics, bad operations, bad communications. And that's in 1943. One can only imagine the crap that went on in the chaos of 41.

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 08:13 PM
You are wrong on Hartmann: He flew most of the time with wingmen and he was personally very proud not to have ever lost a wingmen. This attitude of taking great care of your wingman was taught to him by his friend and commodore an teacher Dieter Hrabak. Of course "Bubi" has also had some kills flying solo, but in general he was very much using wingman.
If you look for a real lonely wolf you may have a look at Hans Joachim Marseille, the "star of africa" who was a genius of flying and who did maneuvres and precision shooting others couldnt dream of...

Apart of that, DFs even with wingmen have a tendency to break up in single fights after a short time. Very often on a 2by2 the result is a pair of single fights where the side killing the first machine takes command of the situation. Good teamtactics is important and fun and helps to overcome plane performance issues but to like teamtactics shouldnt be an excuse for tolerating bad, unrealistic and unfair flightmodells.

II/JG54_Zent

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 10:22 PM
Manos1 ...... your point seems to be that these ppl complaining about FM need to fly with effective wingmen


this is not what FM mistake posts have a problem with

its about getting the individual planes to not have favoured bias


the FM posts are appearing because of FM biases being noticed

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 10:55 PM
RE: 109 is porked, FW190 is porked, Yak is porked.....

When FB gives you pork, make bacon! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<center>Beebop-ProudBirds-VFW<center>http://www.uploadit.org/files/230903-Beebop%20Sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 11:14 PM
I agree - quite why no one really discusses tactics, but just that their plane is wrong, is a bit depressing sometimes (although i also agree that sometimes things get fixed that way).

I find that despite all the apparent shortcomings of the 190 (and i'm flying v1.0) I have had the most successful combats in it so far. In an A4, keeping energy high, my three AI wingmen and i do quite well. I come in at high alt, keep speed above 400km/h at most times, and use successive passes at a target.

In later 190s where opposition is tougher, it calls for more survivalist thinking... I try to only engage with alt advantage and if against Yak-3/9U or La5FN/7 use only one pass before buggering off...

Anyone else got methods they use?

Sm

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 11:34 PM
- 2. IF YOU FLY ONLINE
- 2.a When was the last time you flew with a wingman
- and asked him to clear your tail?
- 2.b When was the last time you trained some tactics
- with your wingman?

2.a I allways fly with a wingman/squad. So everytime I need it I do ask him/them to clear my tail.

2.b Several times every week I am home.

Ok can I whine now?





<center><img src= "http://homepage.ntlworld.com/n.bulger/Emil_Bug.jpg">

AKA JG5_Emil

"I wish we all had the courage to confine our defence to three simple words....LICK MY A*S!" Herman Goering

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 11:39 PM
Good post.

But the people who bring up complaints, aren't that dumb so they confuse performance issues with tactical issues.



-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 12:31 AM
Beebop-PBNA wrote:
- RE: 109 is porked, FW190 is porked, Yak is
- porked.....
-
- When FB gives you pork, make bacon! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!! That's good. An original from Boosher! S!