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majnos64
10-26-2006, 10:47 AM
I have seen a lot of gun cam footage. I saw in action .50 cal, Hispanoes, Mk-108s, MG-151s. And I found the most interesting german attacks on B-17/24. Germans just spray and they are hiting bombers by dozens of cannon shells into wings, engines even to cockpit. But the braking of wings I saw maybe once or twice of hundred attacks. Flying some german a/c makes me feel like God himself because I say: "Broke wing" and it's broken http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, after few say 2-5 shells from Mk-108 (single gun). I didn't mention it's possible to brake wing even with few more shells from MG-151/20. Similar thing I found in hitting engines it just catch bright fire after 1 shot from MK-108 and few more if you don't aim precisely. That's completely ridiculous. Watched some documentary about air raids and there engine get maybe 20-25 hits from MG-151/20 and it was NOT on fire. Maybe it stopped but it wasn??t smoking no fire. This attack lasted about 10 seconds. The plane probably fall down after this kind of damage but it won't fall apart or catch fire. It's like in southpark where tricycle exploded after an accident http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Brain32
10-26-2006, 10:49 AM
OK now this is really ridiculous...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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JG4_Helofly
10-26-2006, 10:54 AM
A few days ago I read a book from a german fighter pilot. He said that 2-3 hits with mk 108 were enough for a bomber, with 20mm a few more of course.
I also think that things like shooting a wing off is a bit over done in this sim.

F6_Ace
10-26-2006, 11:06 AM
Peter Spoden, LW night fighter, said in 'Enemy in the Dark' that it took just one or two 20mm shells into the wing of a bomber (Lancasters, presumably) to cause a fire that would ultimately down them.

In fact, I got the impression that shooting down bombers wasn't as hard as it can be in this game.

He said that he only once kept firing shells into the fuselage of a bomber, causing it to explode completely, once...and that was because he'd been annoyed about something that had happened. He said he still regretted it to this day.

Antoninus
10-26-2006, 01:46 PM
Killing bombers with heavy guns seems to be largely Ok for me in game, except that they indeed break apart rather easily, in no case to hard.

Willi Reschke (late war Luftwaffe Ace, ~ 22 4 engined bomber kills) wrote in his book that it happened only once to him that a bomber broke apart, while still flying in formation. That happened after a combined attack of his Bf-109G-6 ( 2x Mg 151/20 in wingpods, 2 x 13 mm, 1 x Mk 108) and a Fw-190. He describes the effects of the Mk 108 as spectacluar, but normally it seems that it needed quite a lot hits until a bomberbegun smoking and burning and had to leave the formation. His usual tactic was to first fire a burst with his 13 mm mgs into the rear gunners turret, than target the inner engine and the wing root with his 20 mms and finally open fire with the Mk-108 as soon as 20mms hits are recognizeable, until the engine and wing begins to burn or he had to abort the attack. At one point he is astonished that one pilot managed it to shoot down two bombers in single mission, since even a single one needed so many hits.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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LEBillfish
10-26-2006, 02:01 PM
blow up spars, ribbing, shear through it or blow it out, things crumple......

If I saw through your cars frame 3/4 of the way guess what happens....The car breaks in two the sheet metal crumpling up......Now in a plane think of the air as applying the pressure to hold you up yet on the wings and tail. Make a wing structurally unsound, guess what happens, the wing stays, the plane falls the sheet metal alone not enough to hold it up.....and it gets ripped off.

Now You speak of 10 seconds of hundreds of hours of grainy films.....Don't be so sure be it either structural strength or fire did not happen and more often then you think from that....As if it didn't, the planes would have come home.......There had to be some reason they didn't and they wern't flying over the bermuda triangle.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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DomJScott
10-26-2006, 02:12 PM
I think the strength of the wings in general is on the weak side. Whether high speed or through damage they do fall apart rather readilly. There's a lot of air, even in a wing, and thus even a 30mm shell isn't going to guarantee a wing failure unless it hits close enough to a critical spot.

On top of the that aircraft seem to break up through high speed at speeds below those documented as being achieved. For instance spits breaking up at around 500mph when one achieved, all be it losing the propeller, 606mph in a dive. Even in high G pullouts I believe the tendancy was to bend the wings rather than pull them clean off.

rnzoli
10-26-2006, 02:29 PM
maybe the wingStrength and gunnerAccuracy parameters were mixed up by Oleg's team http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif sorry, just a wicked thought http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Klemm.co
10-26-2006, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by DomJScott:
I think the strength of the wings in general is on the weak side. Whether high speed or through damage they do fall apart rather readilly. There's a lot of air, even in a wing, and thus even a 30mm shell isn't going to guarantee a wing failure unless it hits close enough to a critical spot.

On top of the that aircraft seem to break up through high speed at speeds below those documented as being achieved. For instance spits breaking up at around 500mph when one achieved, all be it losing the propeller, 606mph in a dive. Even in high G pullouts I believe the tendancy was to bend the wings rather than pull them clean off.

Ever heard of mine-shells? The Germans began using them from mid-war on, mine-shells do not explode unlike explosive cannon shells when they touch the skin of an aircraft, but rather when they broke through the skin and are inside. To sum it up: Mine-shells are much more powerfull than only explosive bullets, and the MK-108, MK-103 and i think the MG-151/20 used mine-shells.
Now just imagine an explosive load not detonating outside of the aircraft and doing little to no damage, maybe some holes in the a/c, but detonating inside it, thereby damaging or destroying much more critical parts.

And- before i forget it, the shell of the MK-108 had much more explosive in it than that of a MG-FF or MG-151/20.

And for the wings bending rather than breaking off, at the moment this is not doable in any sim. Because for that effect you would basically need a true-to-the-real-world physics engine or script the effect, which would look very bad and would not be dynamic enough.

If the Spit gets such a dive-limit as you propose, i want the brick-elevator of the 109 fixed too. I know this is a very dead horse, but today i experienced the effect again, and i happened to look at the speed-gauge on the instrument panel at that moment.
It went something like this: I'm at 550 kph when i beging pulling up. The speed sinks, but elevator is not very responsible at all. 500 kph: It is nearly the same as before. Then suddenly at 450 kph, my plane pulls sharply up and the speed begins to decrease faster. All the while i was pulling the stick fully back.

Just had to say this because the effect is just plain rediculous and i doubt any real aircraft would handle like that. Whith an elevator like this, i am forced to use the trim as an aid to pull up. The wheel on the X-52 comes in real handy for that... Ah, i got the feeling this will not even be changeg/fixed (as you wish to call it) in BOB.

DomJScott
10-26-2006, 03:13 PM
1) Wasn't proposing wings bending. What I was proposing was them not falling off. With bent wings the aircraft still flew although I suspect it wouldn't be used after it landed without new wings.

2) Heavy controls in a high speed dive IS prototypical. Whether it's correct for a 109 I don't know but controls ARE affected in a dive.

Regarding mine shells. If the explosion is in an area away from the spar's then the wing will just have a big hole in it. If the wing tank is punctured then naturally it's possible the fuel will be ignited but the explosion would need to be pretty close to a spa to cause failure.

VW-IceFire
10-26-2006, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by majnos64:
I have seen a lot of gun cam footage. I saw in action .50 cal, Hispanoes, Mk-108s, MG-151s. And I found the most interesting german attacks on B-17/24. Germans just spray and they are hiting bombers by dozens of cannon shells into wings, engines even to cockpit. But the braking of wings I saw maybe once or twice of hundred attacks. Flying some german a/c makes me feel like God himself because I say: "Broke wing" and it's broken http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, after few say 2-5 shells from Mk-108 (single gun). I didn't mention it's possible to brake wing even with few more shells from MG-151/20. Similar thing I found in hitting engines it just catch bright fire after 1 shot from MK-108 and few more if you don't aim precisely. That's completely ridiculous. Watched some documentary about air raids and there engine get maybe 20-25 hits from MG-151/20 and it was NOT on fire. Maybe it stopped but it wasn??t smoking no fire. This attack lasted about 10 seconds. The plane probably fall down after this kind of damage but it won't fall apart or catch fire. It's like in southpark where tricycle exploded after an accident http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Trouble is ...thats all anecdotal. They tend to show you spectacular things in gun camera footage and if you don't know what you're actually looking at or what is going on then its sometimes very hard to make any sort of judgement based on the gun camera footage that you've seen. Particularly if its from the History channel or something like that...

Gun camera footage is great but you need to take it in context. Do you know for certain that an MG151/20 is being fired at a B-17. Is the gun camera running at 15 FPS or 30 FPS...are you certian that they just pumped out 20/25 shots? It might be more like 5 or 6 depending on the speed of the film.

Its funny but one shot thats used all the time to show the German fighters shooting at Hurricanes is actually from Italian gun camera footage and the gun being fired is a Breda 12.7mm! Context is important. I didn't know better either.

I'd have to say that the game these days does it more right than wrong. By no means perfect but generally speaking it matches up with research from all sources more often than not. Its still a bit of a subjective art mind you.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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LEBillfish
10-26-2006, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by DomJScott:
1) Wasn't proposing wings bending. What I was proposing was them not falling off. With bent wings the aircraft still flew although I suspect it wouldn't be used after it landed without new wings.

2) Heavy controls in a high speed dive IS prototypical. Whether it's correct for a 109 I don't know but controls ARE affected in a dive.


Wings don't bend up at the root or near and the plane fly on........They then tumble as one wing has lift up if horizontal the other not the same......If it cand bend up a little, it will most likely continue to do so as it tries to fly.......The sheet metal and remaing connections simply tearing away.

A great though extreme examply of this is that overhead view of a B24 as it's wing crumples and folds.......and you simply see it roll over and go down.

Same thing when you see in guncam films a fighter gets it's wing blown off....Most likely it was not, yet was structurally damaged, folded, then ripped off in the blink of an eye. Also, don't be so sure of the power of these cannon shells.....I've seen photo's of single hits from 151/20's that went off perfectly inside the fuselage of bombers......You could just about walk through them.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Klemm.co
10-26-2006, 03:55 PM
2) Heavy controls in a high speed dive IS prototypical. Whether it's correct for a 109 I don't know but controls ARE affected in a dive.
I was flying level at note:550kph , not mph and then pulled up. And the effect was very obvious too. From what i gather, the stick heaviness we experience at 500-550kph should be at 600-700kph. What i find confusing is the authority of the trim at all speeds. I can pull out from the steepest dives easily, just add 3/4 of back elevator trim (full back would sheer a wing off). So i guess one unhistorcal feature has to make up another one in the game! BTW the Bf-109 had a hand-cranked trim wheel. If you look left and down in the cockpit you can see it. The (nearly) total unability to pull out of a high-speed dive in a 109 came from wrong trim at the start of the dive (in that case: should have been nose-up but was nose-down). Trying to turn the trim wheel in the dive was useless. All that is what i gathered of anecdotic evidence, but thats the same thing Oleg and his team did too, --> heavy elevators on 109.


I'd have to say that the game these days does it more right than wrong. By no means perfect but generally speaking it matches up with research from all sources more often than not. Its still a bit of a subjective art mind you.
Yesterday i happened to fly in behind a B-17 with my P-51 in a simulated attack and from somewhere i seemed to remember the view- later on it came to me: It was from that (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZOb0vx9y9I&mode=related&search=) gun camera footage video i once saw! Even the spinning propellers looked dead on. The only thing i cant understand is how the LW fighters can hang so long behind that bomber and not be shot down.
I guess that the gunners were dead and that the bombers were seperated from their formation and maybe damaged already- also the clips look like teaching clips, about what not to do or how to do something, i dont think that they are representative examples of real airwarfare against bombers.


Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Also, don't be so sure of the power of these cannon shells.....I've seen photo's of single hits from 151/20's that went off perfectly inside the fuselage of bombers......You could just about walk through them.

I think thats what i tried to describe in my post above. Some pictures would be nice, though.

anarchy52
10-26-2006, 04:32 PM
109 in game is crippled regarding high speed maneuverability (not that it excelled in that area IRL, but it wasn't frozen stiff at cruise speed at sea level either). The higher you go the sillier things get, as someone noticed control stiffness seems to be linked to TAS?!?

As for trim effectiveness, 109 was top performer in that area - the whole stabilizer moved unlike most other planes that used trim tabs.

On DM: yes, structural failures are more common then one would expect but the reason for that is the lack of detailed DM, some planes in the game can be brought down only by causing catastrophic structural damage (especially russian planes).

For example: IRL you didn't need 100+ 20mm shells to bring down a B-25 or 4-5 30mm shells to take down a P-38, but in game such things happen.

That's why in game even machineguns can tear wings off quite frequently - otherwise they would be useless.

Compare this video to game:
- B-17 was probably the toughest thing flying in WWII, yet compare the real B-17 to in-game B-25, or P-47 for that matter.
http://marvin.kset.org/~riddler/head-on.avi (http://marvin.kset.org/%7Eriddler/head-on.avi)

(I'm still trying to visualize what would that P-47 look like in reality if hit by 10-15 20mm shells)

http://marvin.kset.org/~riddler/mk108_vs_B17.avi (http://marvin.kset.org/%7Eriddler/mk108_vs_B17.avi)

(Real footage, B-17, 3-4 Mk-108 shells)

DomJScott
10-26-2006, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Wings don't bend up at the root or near and the plane fly on........They then tumble as one wing has lift up if horizontal the other not the same......If it cand bend up a little, it will most likely continue to do so as it tries to fly.......The sheet metal and remaing connections simply tearing away.

Trust me spitfire wings bend. At 500+mph if pilots pulled out of diveds too hard they would bend the wings on spitfires. ( not sure on hurri's but I THINK so too )

The ensuing bent wing spitfire would still get back to base just fine. The bend ought to be fairly symetrical and any that isn't won't be ny worse than having a wing with a hole in it.

Capt.LoneRanger
10-26-2006, 05:55 PM
You have to remember, this is a game. A 6 year old game.

An engine CAN be stopped in this game without making it burn. It can even be shot off, just like in real life.
Same is for a wing - okay, it may have not been that often, but it is a more simple way of what we are going to see in BoB (according to interviews with Oleg) : Plating being damaged and torn off by gunfire. Not only little holes, but plates coming off. But that was a major part of the effect of the explosive ammo - they just couldn't model that when the IL2-engine was developed.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Rammathorn_
10-26-2006, 08:02 PM
I'm not sure how over/under modelled structural failures are, but something funny happened when I was flying against an AI 109 last week with a P-51D. I got right behind him, and after a 1.5 second burst at convergence, both his wings flew off simultaneously. It happened so fast that his undamaged, wingless fuselage arced gracefully towards the ground before I lost contact.

LEBillfish
10-26-2006, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by DomJScott:
Trust me spitfire wings bend. At 500+mph if pilots pulled out of diveds too hard they would bend the wings on spitfires. ( not sure on hurri's but I THINK so too )

The ensuing bent wing spitfire would still get back to base just fine. The bend ought to be fairly symetrical and any that isn't won't be ny worse than having a wing with a hole in it.

Of course they do, all do, fly on a jet airliner and watch them move 6' or more at the tips......Yet there is a limit, exceed that limit by whatever factors, and wham, they disintegrate.......You have to remember, you're speaking of a spit in a manuever.....and like all other planes the wings "flex", not really bend, meaning they will warp/arc/etc. a certain amount....

You stated above "Originally posted by DomJScott:
1) Wasn't proposing wings bending. What I was proposing was them not falling off. With bent wings the aircraft still flew although I suspect it wouldn't be used after it landed without new wings.".......

Sorry, yet they will tear off if those bending limits are exceeded......Those limits, greatly reduced with each degree of structural integrity deminished....Even just ripping the skin open will do a lot, as to keep planes light everything must work together to accomplish the job of flight....SImple things like thin framing held in place by sheetmetal put in tension a simple example of this.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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LEBillfish
10-26-2006, 08:33 PM
from a 20mm
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/photos/body/side2.gif
20mm resulting in a fire
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/photos/nose/nosefire.gif
20mm from a FW190
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/photos/tail/rudder5.gif
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/photos/tail/stabil3.gif
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/photos/tail/rudder3.gif

From a 262 so most likely a Mk108 30mm
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/photos/body/side1.gif

and these are mild compared to others I've seen.....These just from the following website:

http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/contents.htm<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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WB_Outlaw
10-26-2006, 09:10 PM
You have to take static photos of damage in as much context as you do gun camera footage. A fairly small bent piece of sheet metal hanging in the slipstream can easily turn into a very long tear/large hole during a 6 hour return flight.

Also keep in mind that missing skin on the wing will reduce lift, thus reducing the bending moment it has to carry.

B-17s could fly with a full bomb load, drop on target, and return home with the main spar severed just outboard of the #1/#4 engine (depending on which side the hit was on).

IMHO, wings and tails come off and entire aircraft just blow into pieces way too easily in the game.

It should be pretty easy to verify though as the destruction of the majority of aircraft was witnessed by someone. Simply look at the available combat reports and see how many noted aircraft coming apart like they do in the game due to enemy fire. I can't say for sure but I think we would find that it's comparitevly few. Note that I'm NOT saying it never happened, but it was pretty rare.

I would much rather see, in the majority of cases, aircraft rolling/yawing/spinning out of control due to damage (even if the controls aren't hit) rather than them just blowing up and/or coming apart.


--Outlaw.