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Lead-Brick
06-12-2008, 04:29 PM
Hi All

Ok I've been flying Il2 for almost 2 years now and can do Ok in most aircraft online. The trouble is every time I fly the F4U vs. Japanese aircraft online I die horribly!! Are there some Corsair Experts out there that can give me a few pointers on how to fly this bird.

By the way I know how to B&Z etc. My trouble seems to be that I'm loosing way too much energy on my climb out and turn? Maybe that's the problem I'm trying to turn at the top of my zoom climb to re-acquire the target?

Anyways I'd be keen to hear from the experts

Cheers

Leady

Wildnoob
06-12-2008, 05:27 PM
Lead-Brick, air combat tactics are very extensive, but I gonna try bring the basic using of the F-4U. in fact, the tactis I gonna talk where not only intended to the F-4U, but for all figther aircraft.

first, I don't know, but have almost sure you are trying to turn with enemy figthers.

turningfigth with the F-4U can only be used against aircraft of it's wheigth classification. the only enemy aircraft I remember rigth now is the FW-190.

but, against Japanese planes the turning ratio of the aircraft is inferior, and you gonna be outurned all the time if you try turn with them. you will understand this when I talk about using of level speed in combat.

your first lesson : DON'T TURN !

the type of turn I are saying is the classic dogfigth, where where both pilot's try turn to get on the other 6. I also later gonna cited when you should turn.

just to confirm, try get on the enemy aircraft 6 by turning with it it's forbidden.

now, I gonna talk about level speed.

the F-4U as a powerful engine, and if you know how to use it correctly you can decide when you gonna figth or not against most enemy aircraft. this is very important, because stay in the offensive all the time will make you a easy target for a third enemy aircraft.

let's say you meet a Zero head on, wat you shold do ?

first, you only gonna engage the enemy when he spot you if you are at superior altitude. understand, it's expressive forbidden on other ways.

why ?

like I've sayied before, you know you are not capable of turning with him, so you gonna enter in the defensive.

in simple terms - DIVE !

full open your trottle and dive away. you don't gonna get this guys rigth now, and you know you can't.

you may thougth, the Zero gonna get me. no, if you take that you don't need to whorry, the zero can be more agile, but he don't have a power plant wich could get a corsair at full trottle.

Lead-Brick, you may think onnly jets against piston engine ones have advantage on speed, that's a big mistake.

it's so comm to see this because many rookies just want to turn, and they don't give the oportunity of their aircraft use it's full power.

understand, the Zero is very agile at slow speeds, it's for that he destroy's you easly, because you are give him the oportunity to use it's advantage on turning. preventing that with the correct use of speed will take away this advantage from him, because he cannot chase you, even in a dive and even on level speed.

you gonna try spoted the enemy always on a superior altitude. if this not happen, simple, dive and use your superior speed to avoid him.

find the enemy at a superior or equal altitude ? dive away, that's not gonna be your chance of victory in this momment.

now, let's say you spoted the enemy at a superior altitude.

now, yes, now you gonna on the offensive.

find the target, and dive on him, but know you only gonna make a firing pass on him. don't try follow him trying to put your gunsigth on him. you gonna be making the error of try turn with him again.

now, let's know wat is a firing pass.

you spoted the target, gonna diving on him and fire. now you can turn, but just turn to correct your aim. put your gunsigth on him and fire.

the Corsair ir far more agile then the Zero at high speeds.

if you hit him or not, you gonna dive away, getting on the defensive again.

why to do this ?

because the enemy will have a much smaller time to spot you. and, will not be able to pursuit you.

understand ? fire and dive away.

I don't cited above, but I recommend at least 1 or 2 minutes of level fligth at full trottle to loose any pursuiters.

after you have sure you are not being pursuit, climb to a superior altitude and turn back. repeat the same procedure, only attacking when you have advantage on altitude, and only when you can make a high speed firing pass.

that's the basic, you gonna apply this procedure as your main combat tactic.

and remember, when you are not diving on the enemy you are running like hell.

this tactic works very well against early and mid war Japanese planes. late war models like the KI-84 and te N1K2 where in fact equal to the F-4U in power, and should only be attacled when you spot then first. if they see you first, a good wingman is necessary.

just remember that when you are not diving on the enemy, you are running from him.

explore the advantage of speed. dive and run always and you should be safe against early and mid war enemy planes.

any doubths, please, post then.

I have sure whe gonna have a great Corsair pilot here. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

PS : I'm not a expert, just a Wildnoob.

M_Gunz
06-12-2008, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by Lead-Brick:
Maybe that's the problem I'm trying to turn at the top of my zoom climb to re-acquire the target?

Not an expert but if you zoom to low speed then you are making a boo-boo right there.
Don't let your speed drop below 200mph (320kph) and try not to get that slow. If you find
yourself doing that then re-examine your tactics and change them as you approach such speed.

These work when you have the decidedly faster plane.

When trading energy for angles, always watch your speed and extend away if you even get near
the low end of your good maneuvering speed. Try also to keep a speed high enough that at
that speed you can climb better than he can. Sure he can slow down and make a better
sustained climb but in doing so he cannot turn as well and your zoom will beat his steady
climb at low speed.

There are ways to overcome disadvantage in turn though the enemy might move to counter so
you need to be on guard and ready to respond. If he turns flat tighter than you can follow
then rise and roll to keep sight. Gravity will assist your turn. You can alternate that
by dropping your nose to use gravity assist as well. Don't always use the same move.
If you approach off to the side of your target so to attack from his 4-5 or 8-7 then when
he turns your circle will either intersect his if he turns into you or you will have an
easier turn and a longer fire time if he turns away from you.

The hard part is keeping up SA while fighting this target. You may have to break just to
get a look around at times, target fixation is bad. But if you keep your speed high then
it's less likely though still possible that you are being trailed and you have the speed
to jink and break which you won't if you pull grandstand zoom to hammerhead type moves.

Avont29
06-12-2008, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by Lead-Brick:
Hi All

Ok I've been flying Il2 for almost 2 years now and can do Ok in most aircraft online. The trouble is every time I fly the F4U vs. Japanese aircraft online I die horribly!! Are there some Corsair Experts out there that can give me a few pointers on how to fly this bird.

By the way I know how to B&Z etc. My trouble seems to be that I'm loosing way too much energy on my climb out and turn? Maybe that's the problem I'm trying to turn at the top of my zoom climb to re-acquire the target?

Anyways I'd be keen to hear from the experts

Cheers

Leady


wassup man. ok i am a corsair EXPERT. been flyin it for like 2 years.

I've shot down down a countless amount of jap planes. Its like this.

you can't outurn them dont even try to turn with them.

you said you have b&z down, so ok. If your level with a jap plane, this is what you down. If he is on your six dive down hard and zoom out. He wont be able to catch you, once your at top speed at you've got a fair amount if distance from him, climb up hard. Nose straight up, he can't climb as fast as you so your in the clear. By this time you've got the height advantage. Turn around, easy kill. Not much too it.

You can climb and zoom faster than the jap plane.

But you can't turn with it. Even if your on HIS six and he tries to turn, climb up. If he does a 360 degree turn and tries to climb onto your six, if he is gaining on you hard, dive down and repeat what i said above. If you are slowly gaining away from him, continue, soon he will pull off and there is your shot.

jayhall0315
06-12-2008, 11:21 PM
I agree with what the advice given by the others here as those are the best tactics. Also be aware (and it is here that many veteran IL2 flyers will chime in and tell me how wrong I am) that the Corsair is possibly the worst modeled airframe in IL2. In real life the Corsair F4U-D could sustain dives of ~880 kph before structural damage resulted but in IL2 this limit is much lower at about ~740 kph. The Corsair was (as in IL2) a difficult bird to fly but it did turn better in real life than it does in the game. If you are on a server where the Corsair is fighting its traditional enemy the Zero, then following the advice given above will work fine. If you choose a server where you are facing many late war planes (La-7, Spit 25 lbs, late model FW-190s, etc) DO NOT choose the Corsair as your dive advantage will be useless and you will not have the level flight speed to escape.

Jay

M_Gunz
06-13-2008, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by jayhall0315:
In real life the Corsair F4U-D could sustain dives of ~880 kph before structural damage resulted

Is that TAS at or above any specific altitude?
Would you care to share your source?

DKoor
06-13-2008, 02:05 AM
Originally posted by Lead-Brick:
Hi All

Ok I've been flying Il2 for almost 2 years now and can do Ok in most aircraft online. The trouble is every time I fly the F4U vs. Japanese aircraft online I die horribly!! Are there some Corsair Experts out there that can give me a few pointers on how to fly this bird.

By the way I know how to B&Z etc. My trouble seems to be that I'm loosing way too much energy on my climb out and turn? Maybe that's the problem I'm trying to turn at the top of my zoom climb to re-acquire the target?

Anyways I'd be keen to hear from the experts

Cheers

Leady I'm not an expert, but I can point you why you probably do a poor job in F4U.
F4U is really a tough machine to fly in combat versus nimble Japanese aircraft.
It requires a lot of discipline, much more than any other US plane in game. And that's not a joke.

P-38, P-47 and P-51 are a dream to fly when compared to the F4U. F6F is not so nice but only because it lacks speed, otherwise flight chars are more than satisfying.

With almost 2,500km range with full tanks you only need 50% fuel max when flying online, however for offline that may increase.

With less fuel, I suppose not only your flight performance in RoC (climb) will increase, but also some of the notorious instability (wobble) when speaking of that aircraft as a gun platform may be rectified.

The only cure versus most Japanese fighters is to stay over 250mph at all times, and also use altitude to convert it in speed fast when needed.

Unfortunately, versus some Japanese fighters such is Ki-84 I'm afraid nothing can be done, since it possesses such stellar performance that it outmatches F4U in practically every flying characteristic except prolonged dive. Even maximum dive speed is F4U ~800kph, Ki-84 ~820kph. J2M is also aircraft with a bit better chars than F4U regarding speed.

Wildnoob
06-13-2008, 08:00 AM
I also recommend a good teamwork if you already not using it.

American aircraft of the Corsair's wheigth classification where far more effective with combat in teams.

in fact all aircraft flying in teams where far superior then lone ones. as most pilot's online fly alone, you can use that as a great advantage.

TinyTim
06-13-2008, 08:24 AM
Maybe it was already mentioned, but it's so important it's worth mentioning again. <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Get a wingman!</span>

This goes for any plane, but even more so for corsair. While you will probably be able to hold your own and to even shoot early japanese planes down in numbers alone, this lone wulf tactics won't work against later Japanese machines. Frank and Jack outeverything Corsair with ease, so your only hope remains to drag and bag them! Also George can give you a good run for your money, but it sucks at high altitudes.

Get a wingman, get on comms, Drag and Bag.

Oh, I almost forgot: Don't forget to manage your engine, especially supercharger, when going high. You shouldn't even think about entering a japanese fighter infested area lower than 15.000 feet.

Oh, did I mention? Get yourself a wingman!

jayhall0315
06-13-2008, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jayhall0315:
In real life the Corsair F4U-D could sustain dives of ~880 kph before structural damage resulted

Is that TAS at or above any specific altitude?
Would you care to share your source? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is the source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F4U_Corsair

Here is the excerpt:

"On 1 October, the XF4U-1 made a flight from Stratford to Hartford with an average ground speed of 405 mph (650 km/h), the first U.S. fighter to fly faster than 400 mph (640 km/h).[12] The XF4U-1 also had an excellent rate of climb. On the other hand, the testing of the XF4U-1 revealed some requirements would have to be rewritten. In full-power dive tests, speeds of up to 550 mph (885 km/h) were achieved, not without damage to the control surfaces and access panels, and, in one case, an engine failure.[13] The spin recovery standards also had to be relaxed, as recovery from the required two-turn spin proved impossible without recourse to an anti-spin chute.[12] The problems clearly meant delays in getting the type into production."

I have also seen the 885 kph figure elsewhere (a Navy manual and a book on WWII fighters I believe but dont quote me on that). Basically, the Corsair in RL was far more capable than as modeled in the game. Every aircraft in IL2 has some things that are off or lacking but the F4U may be the worst of all. It was a real badass in WWII but not at all in IL2.

Jay

VN-philong
06-13-2008, 12:10 PM
Lead-Brick,

Turning in F4U with ZERO's: you should fly on Zeke-vs-Wildcat, PacCon or other F4U squadron server, record the session and you will see how some of the top pilots are turning (not just BNZ) in F4U or F6F against the A6M or Ki.

Here is a track shows how =FA_Jaws= did it in a F6F against A6M on the full switch server Zero-vs-Wildcats:

http://www.4shared.com/file/51215800/f608ae94/FA_Jaws_F6FvsA6M_Dogfight.html

There are plenty of good F4U pilots out there, Shadows is one of those.

For me, dogfight is most exciting part of this game, so I just try to turn with opponents going against the odd, get killed, watch the track, try it again and learn from mistakes. It may sound stupid but hey, it's just a game and that is how I learned.

I want to share with you some tracks showing that I was able to turn (got no kills, no good gunnery http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) with P51 against 3xJ2M and 3xKi. It was on the Zeke-vs-wildcat server:

http://www.4shared.com/file/51217732/927e13cd/P51_vs_3xJ2M_dogfight.html
http://www.4shared.com/file/51217966/e2fa0e9b/P51_vs_3xKi84_dogfight.html

Again, I'm not a good pilot (after 3.5 years) and still trying to learn to play this game.

I was in session last night on VMF215 server with AVG-squadron and BengalTiger. It was unreal to see how an AVG pilot (in P51) fought against BengalTiger's FW190: he did the scissors at low speed against the FW190 that has better roll rate.

As Oleg said, it's about the pilot and not the plane.

~S~

DKoor
06-13-2008, 04:53 PM
I cannot express just how much I disagree with this "it's about pilot, not the plane" thing.
It simply is not true and it is very, very sad that it is being constantly thrown around here.

Wildnoob
06-13-2008, 05:10 PM
As Oleg said, it's about the pilot and not the plane.

I think this is relative.

it's relative about how much superiority a aircraft have against another.

for example, the 17 : 1 kill ratio of the Hellcat is not just because US pilot's where "better". of course they where skilled, but by flying a superior aircraft in most of their figths with enemies was decisive to obtain such kill ratio.

but if you whe are talking about a BF-109 against a Spitfire for example, it's possible to say that pilot experience was decisive in the outcome of the engagement.

again I cited, it depends on how much superiority whe are talking about. episodies in WWII where a superior aircraft gave to the pilot's an edge in combat happeny many times.

VW-IceFire
06-13-2008, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
I cannot express just how much I disagree with this "it's about pilot, not the plane" thing.
It simply is not true and it is very, very sad that it is being constantly thrown around here.
I'll bite. I'm totally in the mindset that its pilot first and plane second. The plane is undoubtedly a factor...undoubtedly. It'd be silly to think that the plane isn't a factor. That all said, a great pilot will make the best out of any plane while a poor pilot will never be able to measure up. Unless the performance disparity is huge, the inexperienced pilot will typically loose against the more experienced pilot despite the experienced pilot having a less capable plane.

I enjoy going into a dogfight server, finding a plane that is considered a low performer or a plane that is an older model and still out perform the less experienced pilots in the newer/better types. Its challenging as a pilot and you end up loosing allot more but I learned allot and still do whenever I do this.

Recently I was online with a guy complaining about all of these planes and how they were bad and how its the planes fault he wasn't doing that well. The planeset was limited to same year and the differences between planes wasn't really that big. I watched the guy fly and he was a terrible combat pilot...no tactics, no gunnery skill, just got himself in a fight and lost it almost every time. He blames the plane. I blame the pilot. Its his fault for not using the type to its full abilities.

Air racing is another one of those things where the pilot is so key. Everyone is flying the same plane but some are faster than others...are they magically going faster? No...they have better technique.

But two good or great pilots fighting against each other...thats when the plane becomes the key. When both pilots are performing at the maximum potential...then the differences in planes becomes so much more important. Given the numbers of experienced virtual pilots on HyperLobby being in the better or at least competitive plane is still definitely an advantage.

Am I wrong or have I misinterpreted?

VW-IceFire
06-13-2008, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Wildnoob:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As Oleg said, it's about the pilot and not the plane.

tell this to the Spitfire pilot's against the FW-190 at time of it's introduction.

and to the US pilot's against the Zero at time of it's introduction. on this case, later with the correct tactics the US pilot's manage to obtatin a 1 : 1 kill ratio against the Zero. but, the Zero still have advantage until the introduction of the Hellcat and Corsair.

and, don't forgot to ask to the Japanese pilot's why the Hellcat obtain a 17 : 1 kill ratio against then. and why.

the same goes for German pilot's against the LA-7 and YAK-3.

wat I'm trying to say is that in my opinion yes, a superior aicraft in WWII give to the pilot of it far more chance of victory against a inferior one.

the question is, how much superiority whe are talking about.

for example, the Spitfire and the BF-109 remain competitive until the end of the war.

but, you can't say that the 17 : 1 kill ratio of the Hellcat is just because American pilot's where simple "better.

most of those kills where against obsolet aircraft like the Zero and the KI-43.

of course the US pilot's where skilled, and I don't want take away their glory, but it's logic that flying a superior aircraft gave then a great edge in combat.

but, that's just my view. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Its true...having the better plane is definitely an edge in combat. A well trained and combat experienced pilot in a Hellcat as was typical for USN pilots in 1944 puts everything in the Hellcats favour. Conversely at the same time that the Hellcat was wreaking such havoc the Japanese pilots were of the lowest quality in the Japanese Navy at the time...the majority of the best pilots gone from the earlier years of fighting. So they had two points against them. Both inferior aircraft and low training and experience. What if (in a flip of history) those Zeros were piloted by the best pilots to serve in the Japanese Navy against green and untrained USN Hellcat pilots? I personally think that kill ratio would evaporate...the Hellcat by itself isn't enough but it does determine the ultimate potential.

But even the Wildcat was doing well against the Zero once training and tactics in the USN improved. This was seen mostly after the Battle of Midway. The kill ratio had evened out before the Hellcat arrived. The Wildcat wasn't doing so badly...despite it being somewhat inferior to the Zero in some respects.

The pilot isn't everything but its significant.

Wildnoob
06-13-2008, 05:29 PM
oh, VW-IceFire, I edited my post again because I thougth it's was very agresive.

anyway, I remain with my opinion.

and yes, the Wildcat manage to obtain a 1 : 1 kill ratio against the Zero with the correct tactics. of course in this case the pilot was vital, because it was he that was applying the new tactics.

a superior aircraft by significant terms give to it's pilot a far better chance of scoring a victory.

DKoor
06-13-2008, 06:16 PM
First we are talking about game.
I throw my comment in (about game).
Then we switch to RL ww2 aircombat.
Then we get back talking about IL2 again.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And still, even being night & day difference (real life vs IL2) still plane plays enormous part in all this.
I would be that free to say that the plane is much more of an factor in IL2 than IRL.

VW-IceFire
06-14-2008, 08:57 AM
Ahh now that is definitely a more challenging argument...IL-2 versus real life AND plane versus pilot.

I suspect charts would be involved and maybe its best to leave it at that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lead-Brick
06-16-2008, 09:04 PM
Hi There

Thanks for all your replies. I've been practising a bit and getting better (offline) If the squad (|450|) ends up in Zeek's tonight in F4U's I'll let you know how it goes.

Cheers

|450|Leady

deepo_HP
06-16-2008, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by jayhall0315:
"In full-power dive tests, speeds of up to 550 mph (885 km/h) were achieved, not without damage to the control surfaces and access panels, and, in one case, an engine failure."
so it says nothing about about max dive speed without structural damage, does it?
btw, ingame max dive speed is 800km/h, not 740km/h, as you said before.


Originally posted by jayhall0315:
Basically, the Corsair in RL was far more capable than as modeled in the game.
in what regard?

DKoor
06-17-2008, 01:44 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Ahh now that is definitely a more challenging argument...IL-2 versus real life AND plane versus pilot.

I suspect charts would be involved and maybe its best to leave it at that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Ice what I said there regards only the simple fact that flying a plane in IL2 and IRL is not going to make same difference in pilot/plane computation.
One is going to be higher and in my eyes real life would be it. Simply because I regard plane in this game to be much more influential than it really was IRL in WW2.
There are tons of reasons, let's just state the one plain and obvious: you always can game the game, always exploit your engine until maximum never fear of any malfunction... sure thing everyone can do it, but still some planes have an obvious advantage through all this.
Uncomfortable throttle leveler?
Flying at max throttle settings + WEP all day, literally?
Ahh... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

We can argue about how much is one factor important and how much is the other, but fact is that we don't have solid fact nor it is likely that we could obtain such data http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Long story short (and we really shouldn't make science out of this) plane plays enormous part in all this whether we want to admit it or not, therefore I personally will laugh at any attempt of sewing it all to the poor pilot.

idonno
06-17-2008, 08:40 AM
________________________________________________
"... late war models like the KI-84 and te N1K2 where in fact equal to the F-4U in power..."

"If you choose a server where you are facing many late war planes (La-7, Spit 25 lbs, late model FW-190s, etc) DO NOT choose the Corsair as your dive advantage will be useless and you will not have the level flight speed to escape."
________________________________________________

At high altitude, around 20k and up, the Corsair is faster than any of those airplanes, except a 190D. Against the Dora you won't get the advantage until you're at more like 25k. The other night I even ran down a 190 up high with drag-producing damage to my wings.

One of my favorite activities in this sim is to get up high in a Corsair or Thunderbolt and harass the Ki-Uber-4's.

I don't think there are any piston powered Axis aircraft that can match those planes up high. I did have a bit of trouble recently in a P-47 vs. a J2M5, but I don't know how much of that was airplane performance and how much was pilot performance.

As far as the "It's the pilot, not the plane" debate, Check out my signature.

VW-IceFire
06-17-2008, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Ahh now that is definitely a more challenging argument...IL-2 versus real life AND plane versus pilot.

I suspect charts would be involved and maybe its best to leave it at that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Ice what I said there regards only the simple fact that flying a plane in IL2 and IRL is not going to make same difference in pilot/plane computation.
One is going to be higher and in my eyes real life would be it. Simply because I regard plane in this game to be much more influential than it really was IRL in WW2.
There are tons of reasons, let's just state the one plain and obvious: you always can game the game, always exploit your engine until maximum never fear of any malfunction... sure thing everyone can do it, but still some planes have an obvious advantage through all this.
Uncomfortable throttle leveler?
Flying at max throttle settings + WEP all day, literally?
Ahh... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

We can argue about how much is one factor important and how much is the other, but fact is that we don't have solid fact nor it is likely that we could obtain such data http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Long story short (and we really shouldn't make science out of this) plane plays enormous part in all this whether we want to admit it or not, therefore I personally will laugh at any attempt of sewing it all to the poor pilot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I do see your point about gaming the game. Yeah in that kind of case...all bets are off.

Still I'd like to think that I, as an experienced virtual pilot, won't have much trouble with some of the greener pilots I've seen online even if I fly a plane that has less performance. If the differences are close enough I might even be "faster" just by flying better.

Coming to think of it we are going to inevitably miss some of what distinguishes pilots like endurance, ability to withstand prolonged and rapid changes in G, eyesight, etc. Those things either matter allot less or not at all.

But I don't like, on the other hand (while I do see your point now) to simply place the blame with the game all the time and not have the virtual pilots take responsibility for the fact that they are in control and that they may just "suck". Lots of people are unwilling to face this http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Every gun and plane is undermodeled when your hit percentage is 1% and you left your landing gear down.

DKoor
06-18-2008, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by idonno:
One of my favorite activities in this sim is to get up high in a Corsair or Thunderbolt and harass the Ki-Uber-4's. +1


I don't think there are any piston powered Axis aircraft that can match those planes up high. I did have a bit of trouble recently in a P-47 vs. a J2M5, but I don't know how much of that was airplane performance and how much was pilot performance. Mate, believe me, J2M5 is just better high up than a P-47D27 regarding speed. Couldn't really believe it myself.
I'm fairly positive it even outmatches the P-51D.

I experienced J2M5 insane performance once when Daiichidoku (in P-38) myself (in P-47) and one more guy (in P-38) took onto a J2M5... he evaded all attacks then simply pointed his aircraft upwards (climb) and flew away from us. He did that from 7,000m up to over 11,000m. I followed but with no effect...

That plane you have to see in action on high alt to believe it.

However good thing is that its no match to a Thunderbolt in dive.

X32Wright
06-18-2008, 01:20 AM
The Raiden's performance in the game doesn't surprise me. IRL it was made to intercept B-29s flying over Japan.

In the game if well handle it is a nasty plane with very good DM and still flies even looking like a swiss cheese. Its real weakness is the amount of ammo.

BTW now I remember where I have fought u DKOOR, it was with Daiichidoku when Miss Strega was still around during the kerosenekaos days http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DKoor
06-18-2008, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by X32Wright:
BTW no I remember where I have fought u DKOOR, it was with Daiichidoku when Miss Strega was still around during the kerosenekaos days http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

neural_dream
06-18-2008, 03:33 AM
Originally posted by deepo_HP:

btw, ingame max dive speed is 800km/h, not 740km/h, as you said before.
I've just tried the F4U-1D. 820 km/h for me.

Gadje
06-18-2008, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
I cannot express just how much I disagree with this "it's about pilot, not the plane" thing.
It simply is not true and it is very, very sad that it is being constantly thrown around here.

I don't understand you on this. You know good online pilots and surely it's their skill that makes them dangerous not just the plane they are in (although a 190 helps http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ).
Its self evident to me on DF servers. Say I'm blue flying a A-5 and everyone on red is in La-5FN's apart from someone I know who is really good who chooses say a?..... P40-M-105. You can bet it will be he who I will be wary of not the guys in La's if they are inexperienced. Type of aircraft only make a difference if the skill level is similar. (I agree more-so with low alt, low energy fights in which options are limited).

Or lets say dogfighting is like rally-car racing. The different cars at the top end can be the difference between the elite drivers. But put one average rally driver in a Ford Transit van around a forest track and me in his racing car and he would still murder me. He will make it go fast and I will spin off because inexperience will make me mess up. And thats usually what loses dogfights....making mistakes not the planes/developers fault.

And staying on the driving analogy; this sim has the full gamut of players- from Sunday drivers, motorway drivers,to full-time racers. Its not an even playing field as far as skill goes, and thats what I find makes the real difference.

DKoor
06-18-2008, 08:33 AM
Let's just say that flying superior airplane makes average experienced online pilot competitive.

He's not being an ace, but competitive.
That's all he needs to shot someone down here and there. Flying "harder aircraft to handle" probably wont bring him any victories at all.

And all this should really be put to perspective too...

I'll try to do it on concrete example you mentioned.
Because I know you are experienced simmer who knows how to transfer "paper advantage" to a real state of events online.
So.
You take FW and I take...
- P-40 - I have very slim chance to do something (speed gap is just insane, ~90kph, whole world really)
- LA-5(F) - without doubt my chances are raising, as Lavochkin is quite competitive (speed gap is ~20kph in Focke's favor)

So. Flying better planes benefit all... noobs, average and experienced simmers.

But I really feel that I'm http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o125/DKoor/smileys/deadhorse.gif by now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

TinyTim
06-18-2008, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by idonno:
I don't think there are any piston powered Axis aircraft that can match those planes up high. I did have a bit of trouble recently in a P-47 vs. a J2M5, but I don't know how much of that was airplane performance and how much was pilot performance.


Like DKoor said, J2M5 is a monster up high. Best piston engined high altitude fighter in IL2 in my book.


Originally posted by X32Wright:
The Raiden's performance in the game doesn't surprise me. IRL it was made to intercept B-29s flying over Japan.

In the game if well handle it is a nasty plane with very good DM and still flies even looking like a swiss cheese. Its real weakness is the amount of ammo.


Raiden carries 190 rpg for inner and 210 for outer cannons, that sums up to 800 20mm shells. That's more than Fw190A with 750 20mm shells.

VW-IceFire
06-18-2008, 03:44 PM
The J2M5 just feels like it has less ammo because the effectiveness is lower than the cannons carried by the FW190.

The J2M5 is a rare bird (only a small number produced) but given its 3 stage supercharger and high altitude tweaks on the real model its not surprising that its competitive at high altitude. Not about to get into an argument on if it matches its real life counterpart or if its real life counterpart even worked reliably but the Raiden was designed as a high altitude interceptor and largely accomplished that after years of setbacks.

WTE_Galway
06-25-2008, 12:36 AM
I would second the teamwork comments.

The most significant difference to RL combat in this game is that (with the notable exception of the better organised squadrons) pilots in IL2, especially online, tend to try and be one man heroes displaying their "leet" flying skills.

This is not really how it was. One advantage of the luftwaffe "rotte" for example was the ease with which attacking aircraft could be bracketed by some simple prearranged maneuvering on the lead aircrafts part giving the wingman an easy shot. The Rotte and Schwarm technique required good team work on the part of the pilots ... even turning as a schwarm required the two Rottes "crossover" in the turn to avoid an unnecessarily wide turn. the end result was a formation and style of fighting that could demolish traditional formations like 3 plane VIC's.

These tactical issues rarely arise in IL2 where yuo rarely even see attempts to even fly in formation neverlone fight that way.

Back on topic ... a more elaborate example of this type of tactics is the "Thach Weave" a US tactic which turned the air war in the pacific around almost as much as the introduction of new aircraft. Inferior aircraft (such as the Corsair)in a Thach Weave were very hard to attack without the attacking aircraft being made very vulnerable to the second aircraft in the weave.