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WOLFMondo
01-26-2006, 04:35 AM
As usual theres lots of this plane vs that plane threads, annecdotal pilot stories, usually by the cream of the crop aces, guys getting there asses handed to them online in planes they think should make them superior and whining about it.

Those planes may very well be superior and the planes there fighting may very well be inferior. Such is the way of fighter planes and in fact any form of combat, use your advantages and don't let your enemy exploit your disadvantages.

One thing some people on this forum and community really forget and is the single most important fact when you fly online and this is aimed at some whiners in particular:

When you fly online your not facing a RAF pilot circa 1940 with 9 hours in Spitfires, or a BF109 pilot circa 1944 with a hours in gliders and a few hours in 109's prior to being sent up into a cloud of allied aircraft, your not facing Zeke kamikaze pilots whose only been taught to take off in a matter of hours, your not facing a Dora pilot in 1945 who's had so little training he can't get the best out his marvellous aircraft.

Allot of the time your fighting guys who've been flying this sim (as well as ones previous to this one) every day for years, who have more flight time in there favorite virtual rides than some of the great aces of WW2, who can go back and study replays and read about tactics a WW2 pilot would stare at you blankly at for mentioning.

So when you get your butt handed to you online, don't blame the plane, salute your adversary and accept that they are simply better than you, even if there plane was totally inferior.

WOLFMondo
01-26-2006, 04:35 AM
As usual theres lots of this plane vs that plane threads, annecdotal pilot stories, usually by the cream of the crop aces, guys getting there asses handed to them online in planes they think should make them superior and whining about it.

Those planes may very well be superior and the planes there fighting may very well be inferior. Such is the way of fighter planes and in fact any form of combat, use your advantages and don't let your enemy exploit your disadvantages.

One thing some people on this forum and community really forget and is the single most important fact when you fly online and this is aimed at some whiners in particular:

When you fly online your not facing a RAF pilot circa 1940 with 9 hours in Spitfires, or a BF109 pilot circa 1944 with a hours in gliders and a few hours in 109's prior to being sent up into a cloud of allied aircraft, your not facing Zeke kamikaze pilots whose only been taught to take off in a matter of hours, your not facing a Dora pilot in 1945 who's had so little training he can't get the best out his marvellous aircraft.

Allot of the time your fighting guys who've been flying this sim (as well as ones previous to this one) every day for years, who have more flight time in there favorite virtual rides than some of the great aces of WW2, who can go back and study replays and read about tactics a WW2 pilot would stare at you blankly at for mentioning.

So when you get your butt handed to you online, don't blame the plane, salute your adversary and accept that they are simply better than you, even if there plane was totally inferior.

Brain32
01-26-2006, 04:40 AM
And, if I may add, never disregard the fact that if you reduce whineing and increase flying one day you may hand some butts back http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Deedsundone
01-26-2006, 04:46 AM
There is new players that kind of simulate those situations though,but first mistake is to underesitmate you opponent regardless what arircraft he uses.Now I regard everyone as an ace http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

nakamura_kenji
01-26-2006, 04:49 AM
hehe i be opposite fly japanese ^_^ plane almost all be worse then enemy plane no expect win. if get kill survive nice bonus.

i tend more angry/disapoint self make idiot mistake get dead than enemy

Manuel29
01-26-2006, 05:09 AM
I think the most of people whine not because of their inferiority as pilots, but for the rate of realism of the sim.

I don't care how many times I've been shoot down, I know my limits and there are so many good pilots online... If you look there are the player who fly with some realism (they don't fight to death) and others that fly like a game (headons, 1 v 5 they don't care...)

IMHO the problem is that if we want to PLAY, yes, we must learn the advantages of our plane like you said; but if we want to SIMULATE I think all the whines can be accepted... because their target is to improve the sim.

Bye

SeaFireLIV
01-26-2006, 05:14 AM
The difference is, WWII pilots couldn`t complain if they were killed in combat.

Good one, WOLFMondo.

OD_79
01-26-2006, 06:55 AM
Couldn't agree more with the original post. Nice one. ~S~

OD

Jetbuff
01-26-2006, 07:26 AM
Well said WOLFMondo.

I'll throw in the caveat that though it is not wrong to question the modelling of the sim; it is certainly not perfect. But it must be done with objective, measurable and reproducible means rather than the stupid piffle we get 90% time.

Jumoschwanz
01-26-2006, 08:15 AM
Great thread start, 1000% true.

I wish I knew in 2001 when I got this sim what I know now, I would have had a lot of fun!

But I still have fun anyway, and it is a great combat flight sim, the best.

The pilots we have now are phenomenal. I am very good, not the best but I always hold my own and put in a good show. But I will tell you I run into virtual pilot after virtual pilot that I sure as sh it could not show a thing to, it is like flying against a mirror image, they do every move just as well and at the same time you do.
This is why full-real settings and historical tactics are so important, they negate the performance of the aircraft and skill of your adversary to a very large extent. If you surprise the enemy and hit him hard, it does not matter who they are or what they are flying, they are all done, just like in most of the actuall kills in WWII......

Jumoschwanz

WOLFMondo
01-26-2006, 08:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Manuel29:
I think the most of people whine not because of their inferiority as pilots, but for the rate of realism of the sim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look at the whines..."Bud Anderson said he could out turn a BF109 in his P51 but when I try it I can't". Bud Anderson fails to tell us about his plane and the enemy planes AoA, damage to surfaces, fuel load, ammo load, exact height, exact model of 109, I could go on. Bud Anderson, like 99% of the fighter pilots who wrote books were multiple aces. Think how many aces there were in WW2 compared with guys who were not aces. The luftwaffe had over 2000 5 kill aces but that doesn't even make up 1% of the total number of luftwaffe fighter pilots in WW2. Aces are a real minority and were clearly well trained and many were gifted and **** lucky (Pierre Closterman springs to mind, how come that guy didn't die by flak I'll never know).

Guys go online and jump in their plane which they've read about in a book by some Ace and expect to dish out some whoop ***, but instead they get killed by a virtual pilot with 2000 hours stick time a plane their dedicated too (there also backed up by there squad mates usually) which according to there favorite pilots books, should have beaten that plane completely cause the pilot who wrote the book said he could. The difference aint realism but pilot skill.

I wish people would just admit they got beat fair and square by a better pilot on that occasion.

Manuel29
01-26-2006, 10:43 AM
Sure the quote "my plane is better than his, so I should win easily" is crock. The skill of the pilots is always decisive. I don't defend these persons. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But when there're serious issues as, for example, the gunsight on FW (modelling), weakness of some weapons (damage modelling) or the plane's behaviour at high altitude (game engine), I think that the most of the "whiners" would discuss in a constructive way.

After all this is a forum there people search answers.

Nitpicking the game-sim, imho, does that the game will be improved by the developers. Indeed not all the voices are from able persons.

This happens with a lot of sim (look at the "sportcar" ones http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ) and the most of the times is for the good of the game.

If for some developers' mistake the Hurricane stall speed was 50km/h, who wouldn't whine?

We know the game isn't perfect...

I repeat, I'm not a whiner, I'm not a so good pilot and not even a engineering expert. I think only that the "whiners" aren't a race, that they aren't all bad. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bye

SeaFireLIV
01-26-2006, 10:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:

I wish people would just admit they got beat fair and square by a better pilot on that occasion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now wouldn`t THAT be nice.

Also, a lot of the guys who tend to constantly swap aircraft aren`t likely to improve over someone who has 2-3 planes he sticks at. Changing planes because you get shot down is not the solution. Sticking with it and learning it is. I could never fly a P47 well, but I`ve seen guys make it look like Spitfire!

Pick ONE (keep a couple spare) plane and get GOOD at it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Manuel29
01-26-2006, 10:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Pick ONE (keep a couple spare) plane and get GOOD at it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Viper2005_
01-26-2006, 11:20 AM
I've never understood this obsession with 1v1 dogfights. Some people seem to want a fair fight with rules and umpires...

Most fights I get into online are many vs many. Victory has almost nothing to do with "pilot skill" (which around here seems to mean ability in BFM) and everything to do with good teamwork, judgement and use of comms.

<span class="ev_code_RED">A superior pilot uses his superior judgement to avoid the exercise of his superior skill.</span>

I've seen bad pilots shoot down highly skilled pilots plenty of times. Sometimes they're helped by the odds; sometimes they're helped by flak. Sometimes they get a lucky shot off. Sometimes they ram and the netcode is their guardian angel.

This is (virtual) war, not chess. It's not fair. Being better than the other guy isn't always enough.

I'd much rather be lucky than good!

If people want to whine, let 'em get on with it. Sometimes it's justified. Sometimes it isn't. Whatever, it has no bearing upon the end result. You can't appeal the judgements of a 20 mm cannon.

Wailing and gnashing of teeth is an inevitable fact of life.

Sultan_of_Swing
01-26-2006, 11:26 AM
Don't forget: you are not just competeing against his virtual plane, but also his rig, his stick etc. Lots' of these"pilots" are virtual pilots only. I wonder how some of these aces would do in the real thing. Success in Il-2 depends alot on knowing your way around a PC.

S!

UberPickle
01-26-2006, 11:56 AM
^ I agree with you as well, WOLF.

I've played online on ubi.com and I've had my *** handed to me many a time. It didnt matter whether or not I flying a ta-152 or a Fw-190 or whatever. I was getting beaten BAD.

When I flew, and wasnt able to keep up with my enemy, did I cry?

NO!

When I would get splashed in any plane, would I cry?

NO!

I learned from the experiences, I learned from my defeats. I learned about the limitations of the various planes in the sim and how to use them effectively offline before going online again (still havent been on in a while). It doesnt matter what you fly, but HOW you fly. I've given p-51's some go (even though not winning the fight) in a brewster offline.

Getting beat or flying under bad odds actually makes you a better pilot because you can think and move and try to beat a guy in a better plane than you. You can learn alot from flying bi-planes vs. regular fighters.

I mean, I am a pretty good pilot now, I started just about a couple of months ago in this game and I've been doing pretty good just recently.

My point is, if you are a bad pilot, it will almost always show when you whine about a plane. It doesnt matter if a guy is flying an UBER plane like the me-262 if he can barely hit a matress with a tomato! If you make excuses, you will realize that the only excuse there is: YOU.

Now as they say in cs: STFU and play!

Jetbuff
01-26-2006, 12:03 PM
Viper, true, but good judgement is a skill too, no?

I've killed plenty of pilots that never had the opportunity to demonstrate their piloting skills coz they never saw me coming. There's nothing quite like a drive-by-shooting at 700kph. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

UberPickle
01-26-2006, 12:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Viper, true, but good judgement is a skill too, no?

I've killed plenty of pilots that never had the opportunity to demonstrate their piloting skills coz they never saw me coming. There's nothing quite like a drive-by-shooting at 700kph. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen to that!

rnzoli
01-26-2006, 01:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sultan_of_Swing:
Don't forget: you are not just competeing against his virtual plane, but also his rig, his stick etc. Lots' of these"pilots" are virtual pilots only. I wonder how some of these aces would do in the real thing. Success in Il-2 depends alot on knowing your way around a PC.

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There's a yearly competition around here, where IL2 and Lock-On are the 2 categories to fly in.For the Lock-On part, they invite real, active fighter pilots who fly the real thing and guess what, they are 3rd or 5th at best.

tomtheyak
01-26-2006, 01:18 PM
All excellent points!

I especially like the one WOLF ponted out about being able to research tactics and using the vast historical and contewmporary literature available about air-to-air combat.

This is especially true when we talk about energy fighting - this term was never around during WW2.

Tho 'Hit-&-Run' and 'height-is-might' has been around since Immelmann and Boelcke in one form or another it really wasn't until the art of dogfighting was scientifically analyzed during the late '60s (particularly by the US at places like TopGun) that the idea of dogfighting being at heart about conserving energy (or making your opponent waste his!) really hit home.

People armed with a thorough understanding of this are naturally gonna be better online - its one thing knowing that 'he has the height advantage wins the battle' but actually using that advantage wisely is sometimes lost on a lot of people.

SlickStick
01-26-2006, 01:34 PM
And of course, being a real life pilot is NOT a pre-requisite for being a good virtual pilot flying a video game. As attested to everyday by the good ones online who have never even been in a small prop plane. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

danjama
01-26-2006, 01:38 PM
I would love to say i agree 110% that people shouldnt whine when they get *** kicked, but then id be a hypocrite http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Seriously though, i hear ya all man, i agree. I will sometimes moan, but i like a good fight. 9/10 if i am beaten i respect the pilot that beat me and will appreciate the fact that we both gave it all we had. good post.

Say No to onwhining

BaldieJr
01-26-2006, 02:01 PM
blah blah blah this sim is dying look at the numbers on HL blah blah blah the only people left flying are the snow-white nutcakes with dark circles around thier eyes and tar-stained teeth.

so very impressive.

Lucius_Esox
01-26-2006, 07:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">blah blah blah this sim is dying look at the numbers on HL blah blah blah the only people left flying are the snow-white nutcakes with dark circles around thier eyes and tar-stained teeth.

so very impressive </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Roflol,,, You certainly have a way with words http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I get mixed emotions depending on why I was shot down.

Tator_Totts
01-26-2006, 07:05 PM
Gee whats next all you blue flyers are gonna hold hands and sing Kumbaya

Stigler_9_JG52
01-26-2006, 09:08 PM
Well, Wolf you have ONE point. But it's not as simple as you describe.

Like you, I've been around flight simming for a LONG time. I've learned a lot of hard lessons the hard way, by dying again and again until the lesson penetrated my thick skull.

Now, I can see I'm making a mistake while I'm making it, and when I get beat in a situation like this, I know it's my own fault.

I also know if the other guy was simply better.

But...all that being said, I also know when a B-25 hits me and kills my engine AND oils the windscreen with BULLET #1, when he's in a hard right bank and pulling Gs to avoid me... I know that's BULLSH*T.

I knew when Hurricanes back in 3.01, was it, could raise their nose for over 3 long seconds and blast you when you were working a good "rope-a-dope" and should have had him stalling out, but he didn't because Oleg's Physics are from some other planet but Earth... I know that is bullsh*t too.

The list of these examples is long, and worse, it's COMMON; too common. I find the vast majority of my sorties in IL-2 end in bullsh*t ways, and it makes no difference whether i'm flying smart or goofing off, or whether I suck that day or at the top of my game. No, something stupid will almost always happen: you'll be the only aircraft in the sky, changing alt and course every 3 seconds, but the AAA will dewing you inside of 2 minutes. You'll press a shot and pull off at the last second, but no, *klunk* your wing goes off and the guy you hit flies off like nothing ever happens....

etc., etc., etc.

Daiichidoku
01-26-2006, 09:58 PM
what i hate, and seems to happen all too often online is, after bustin a nut to finally get a REALLY good firing solution on someone....its as if the lag, pause, stutter, what have you, occurs JUST as you are going to pull de trigger....like the electric signal from your brain to your finger is somehow picked by en route by the computer, or IP, or whatever, to mess it all up....

of course, this pause will also make you stall, spin, etc....whatever, so that the guy who WAS gonna get blasted....totally blasted...is now lining up on YOU, instead

i wish i could just fire up the game, and let it sit for a hour or two, to work out all the pasues that will occur at the critical times, THEN go and fly and allow me to play the rest smoothly, ya know?

never get any pauses unless your JUST taking off, JUST about to touch down, JUST about to pull trigger, etc etc etc

why does the universe ever do this cr@p when it doesnt matter? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Jetbuff
01-26-2006, 11:34 PM
It's all in the presentation Stigler: This is a whine: "OLEG, WHY ARE YOU SO BIASED AGAINST PLANE X?" even if it is based on a real inaccuracy. Contrast with posts where people actually go through the trouble of building a real argument, supported by sound reasoning at least if not hard evidence and presented in a rational, open-minded manner.

The funny thing is, the latter, while they are far more likely to result in the issue at hand being addressed, are rarely attempted. If only the whiners new!

msalama
01-26-2006, 11:54 PM
Well, the only time I feel like whining/complaining/yelling at someone is if they vulch me AND the server rules forbid it. But other than that, no way I'm going to b1tch and moan at someone because of them pwnzing me a**e at the moment, lucky shot or skill... because hey, d4mn the stats and in you go again ANYWAY to pwnz _theirs_ in return... or re-die trying http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

The trick is not to take all this too seriously http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SeaFireLIV
01-27-2006, 12:11 AM
Oh great, now Stiglr`s coming here from his long-windedness in the PF forum! Better get into my cockpit for a fight again.

WOLFMondo
01-27-2006, 01:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stigler_9_JG52:


But...all that being said, I also know when a B-25 hits me and kills my engine AND oils the windscreen with BULLET #1, when he's in a hard right bank and pulling Gs to avoid me... I know that's BULLSH*T.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I bet BF109 and BF110 Nightfighter pilots said the same thing when they saw Lancasters corkscrewing at 20,000ft, their best defensive tactichttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Lag, freezes, whatever, there effect on play is about as overated as Targetware..just kiddinghttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif .But that aside. I wish more people take into consideration who they are flying against and the general skill level of some pilots in this community.

My point was Stigler, is that some people would rather blame the plane than actualy take a few seconds out to see that the guy that shot them down might have 2000 hours behind his Spitfire or BF109 and hundreds of hours in the type you've just been shot down in too, knows every facet of information about his chosen plane and has read extensively about combat tactics, was supported by his squad or guys on comms. Rather than do this we get Instead we get "nice print screen!" and "Spitfires are overmodelled!" and "thats BS! Chuck Yeager says the P51 can outclimb a saturn 5" etc.

AustinPowers_
01-27-2006, 02:49 AM
ummm

agree 57.64444 r %

Manuel29
01-27-2006, 05:19 AM
I'm going to tell what happens to me yesterday.

I and a friend of mine connect to Spitvs109; we usually take axis plane (ours virtual group flies blue) but to balance the teams we choose the SpitV (4 Hispanos).

I never flied so untroubled, I pull the trigger 10 times making 2 kills in the first 5 minutes and easily evading the BnZ of the 109s.

The strange thing occours then a bf boomed at my front, I dodged it, make a loop and... WTF, I was really near him!!! and he couldn't evade no more. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

And I'm not a good pilot... maybe who I shooted down were rookies.

Now I don't care of this issue, I think it is a game and I can stop playing instead of whining on the forum.

Were the real Spits so good? I don't know, maybe they were, but when I see this manoeuvre let me free to doubt about this. But since the game is this I should learn to defend myself, not whining on the forum but improving my skill. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Yes, a lot of people whine because are losers, but the game isn't perfect and we should argue IMPARTIALY to improve it. Instead impartial gamers are really few, and every thread finishes in a flame. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Bye http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

rnzoli
01-27-2006, 06:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by msalama:
and in you go again ANYWAY to pwnz _theirs_ in return... or re-die trying http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hey, now I see you are right. I always know something was wrong with my 'Fly Again' button... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif... it should be called the 'Die Again' button! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Stigler_9_JG52
01-27-2006, 08:39 AM
I would agree, WOLF, but again, watch how broad that brush is. I admit I am "one of those whiners" online...but as I've posted on this board many times in just the last several days, I'm finding really stupid results upwards of 80% of the time in IL-2 sorties. So it would "seem" that I complain a lot...but if you could see it from my perspective, you'd holler a bit in frustration, too.

Yes, occasionally I do get "owned" and I'll S! a guy for that, or at least just shut up, take the buttwhoopin' as a lesson, and try to go back and get a measure of revenge.

Brain32
01-27-2006, 09:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Gee whats next all you blue flyers are gonna hold hands and sing Kumbaya </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
A spot on statement on a "P51 General Whine Forum" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Pirschjaeger
01-27-2006, 02:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Manuel29:
I'm going to tell what happens to me yesterday.

I and a friend of mine connect to Spitvs109; we usually take axis plane (ours virtual group flies blue) but to balance the teams we choose the SpitV (4 Hispanos).

I never flied so untroubled, I pull the trigger 10 times making 2 kills in the first 5 minutes and easily evading the BnZ of the 109s.

The strange thing occours then a bf boomed at my front, I dodged it, make a loop and... WTF, I was really near him!!! and he couldn't evade no more. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

And I'm not a good pilot... maybe who I shooted down were rookies.

Now I don't care of this issue, I think it is a game and I can stop playing instead of whining on the forum.

Were the real Spits so good? I don't know, maybe they were, but when I see this manoeuvre let me free to doubt about this. But since the game is this I should learn to defend myself, not whining on the forum but improving my skill. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Yes, a lot of people whine because are losers, but the game isn't perfect and we should argue IMPARTIALY to improve it. Instead impartial gamers are really few, and every thread finishes in a flame. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Bye http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

First time flying a noob plane? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

That was 50% humor and 50% truth. I had the same experience the first time I left my 109 for a Spit and also for a La7.

My theory is that the 109 pilots would be better at flying the Spit or La7 than the regular Spit/La7 pilots. The reason is simple. The 109 is not so easy to learn to fly in the beginning. It takes time and patience compared to the Spit and La7. When a 109 pilot applies his hard earned skills to one of the two planes mentioned, he gets better kill counts than if he was flying the 109.

Take a regular Spit/La7 pilot that have little or no experience with a 109 and put him in combat, flying the 109, and watch him go down in flames.

The same applies to a Jug pilot. Put him in a Spit and watch him chew up the enemy.

Spits and La´s are great when you need to learn to fly. But when it´s time to learn to fight, the 109, 190, and P47´s will be your best challenge. Your skills will always be challenged and like muscles, they will grow. Master those planes and you will have mastered most others also.

Spits and La´s don´t challange the pilot.

Fritz

carguy_
01-27-2006, 04:56 PM
bump

Good idea to add this as a first question to FAQ perhaps?Or maybe a sticky here?

TheGozr
01-27-2006, 05:54 PM
Do you think real ww2 Pilots didn't whine? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Think seriously about it now.

StellarRat
01-27-2006, 06:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stigler_9_JG52:
Well, Wolf you have ONE point. But it's not as simple as you describe.

Like you, I've been around flight simming for a LONG time. I've learned a lot of hard lessons the hard way, by dying again and again until the lesson penetrated my thick skull.

Now, I can see I'm making a mistake while I'm making it, and when I get beat in a situation like this, I know it's my own fault.

I also know if the other guy was simply better.

But...all that being said, I also know when a B-25 hits me and kills my engine AND oils the windscreen with BULLET #1, when he's in a hard right bank and pulling Gs to avoid me... I know that's BULLSH*T.

I knew when Hurricanes back in 3.01, was it, could raise their nose for over 3 long seconds and blast you when you were working a good "rope-a-dope" and should have had him stalling out, but he didn't because Oleg's Physics are from some other planet but Earth... I know that is bullsh*t too.

The list of these examples is long, and worse, it's COMMON; too common. I find the vast majority of my sorties in IL-2 end in bullsh*t ways, and it makes no difference whether i'm flying smart or goofing off, or whether I suck that day or at the top of my game. No, something stupid will almost always happen: you'll be the only aircraft in the sky, changing alt and course every 3 seconds, but the AAA will dewing you inside of 2 minutes. You'll press a shot and pull off at the last second, but no, *klunk* your wing goes off and the guy you hit flies off like nothing ever happens....

etc., etc., etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, it's been proven that .50s firing in defense of bombers were completely worthless. No, planes were ever damaged by them let alone shot down. Also, most engines are completely proof against anything othe then German death cannons...

Stigler_9_JG52
01-27-2006, 06:59 PM
Well, you know and I know both, that I'm not saying gunners should never damage or hit a plane, or even shoot it down. It happened plenty.

But history does show that, by and large, IF they did manage to hit a plane, they did not hit (and destroy) the engine or the pilot's head with the very first burst 90% of the time. Damage might sometimes hit the wings, the fuselage, too.

History also shows that, unless it was in a large formation bristling with guns and overlapping fire (think B-17s and B-24s), a bomber was likely toast against a lone fighter, unless they were extremely lucky.

I can handle my own hyperbole, thank you.