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michapma
10-09-2002, 12:42 PM
I like you guys, but I don't know how to model in 3D. So, I am
working on the concept of a companion book to IL-2 under the
working title "A User's Guide to IL-2 Sturmovik". I intend for it
to become a contribution to the IL-2 community and a big thank-you
to the 1C:Maddox Team for their hard work and dedication.

The book is intended to be practical and enjoyable for both
established fans and newcomers. Now I am not competent to write
the book alone, so I would like to appeal to the vast resources
of the IL-2 community on and beyond these forums. It should become
a book for users by users. Generous credit will be given to all
contributors.

I consider that the work should be serious but relaxed and easy
to read, and have at least the following content:

<dl>
<dt>Introduction:</dt>
<dd>The reader must be supplied with the purpose and scope of
the book, and, since the book ought to cover everything from
historical and technical detail to energy fighting, he should get
excited about the many things to be learned. In addition, this is
a chance to expound on the aim of the simulation itself and
provide other valuable insight.</dd>

<dt>Historical Background:</dt>
<dd>Similar to the Western Allied powers at the time, I am not
very knowledgeable about the Eastern Front. Here is where the
contributor can thrill and horrify with the factual history of
this terrible struggle. There is even room for historical pilot
accounts. Obviously plagiarism becomes a number one concern
here.</dd>

<dt>Machines and Loadouts:</dt>
<dd>The software itself provides plenty of info on this topic.
However, if we can agree to disagree, this is a good place to
give our own hints on: how to fly, mangle and manage the various
land, sea and air machines; the philosophy of what hardware for
what plane for what situation. Little histories and general
behavior or properties/strategies appropriate to the contraption
in question. Due to the potential for endless debate, we will
have to take this seriously meant section with a teensie grain of
salt, but I think general facts can be laid out.</dd>

<dt>Flight and Combat:</dt>
<dd>The biggie. Not just take-off, landing, scissors and loops.
Ever read stuff about energy fighting? How to attack bombers
using team tactics? Obviously a non-controversial topic. If
enough authors contribute, this chapter may have to simply
address various points of view. It still out to be of vast
benefit for those seeking to learn a thing or two and become good
combat pilots.</dd>

<dt>Technical Hints:</dt>
<dd>This is not meant to become a FAQ, but some of the well-known
technical topics or oddities can be quickly hashed out for the
reader, especially newcomers. All kinds of neat tips and tricks
and tips may be found appropriate, but the text should remain
readable and well organized.</dd>

<dt>Online Resources:</dt>
<dd>Anything from a simple listing to a review of websites, and
what can be found where. A summary of available 3rd party
software can also be provided.</dd>

Here are a few points that I consider to already be fairly clear.

Debate: There are inevitably many issues on which there will or
can be no agreement. With such issues there are at least three
possibilities: exclude the issue altogether, mention the issue but
dismiss it in the text as controversial, or cover the issue with
arguments from the various sides and let the reader draw her own
conclusion. Debate is not an option in a book format, and taking
one-sided stances is to be avoided if the subject is truly
controversial.

Editor: Obviously a work of such scope composed of the work of
several authors will require extensive editing in order to have a
congruous style. Although my patience has not yet been tested, I
consider myself sufficiently competent and able for the task,
especially since this thing isn't going to be published. All
serious and reasonably punctual editorial assistance will be
welcomed, although somebody has to have the final say. I am also
willing to maintain and update the work, though not indefinitely.

Language: Should not be too big of an issue. Don't hesitate to
contribute just because English is not your strongpoint. As
editor I would feel obliged to enforce a fairly high level, but
am willing to do that work and communicate with contributors. I
am not stuck on "American English" (an oxymoron?), but since that
is what I know that is what I will produce. If somebody wants to
translate the work into any other language &mdash; including
British English &mdash; great. I plan to write in LaTeX.

Time: Nobody wants to get involved in a work that just drags on
and never comes to a finished project. Hence some things may end
up being sacrificed in the interest of practicality. If
contributors are numerous, enthusiastic and speedy, I envision
that an initial draft can be released within two to three months
from today. I find it a good goal to be finished by the time
Forgotten Battles is released, since active participation in this
project is likely to drop dramatically at that point. Whether I
can manage my own contribution to the project also depends on my
schedule, which promises to become dramatically anyway more
hectic in the coming months.

Finality: The last patch for IL-2 has essentially been released.
After we all get experience with Final Battles, a companion guide
or a "revised edition" can be written.

Size: It ought to be a book, but not overwhelming. In any case,
if it is as well organized as I would like &mdash; and that is
largely my job &mdash; the reader will be able to easily pick and
choose. Anywhere between 50 to 100 pages of main text (excluding
front matter) ought to do. It must also be downloadable. This can
get to be a great challenge if many illustrations become
necessary.

This, then, is an official invitation to the IL-2 community to put
your thoughts together and produce something that will improve
our community, show our gratitude to Oleg and team, and be of
great assistance to oldies and newbies alike. How about it?

I have been here long enough to realize that I will have to
filter through a lot of, um, uninteresting posts in order to see
some useful ideas. Please realize that I do not feel obliged to
reply to any response other than serious inquiries and offers to
help. If in the future you do not see your concerns (given they
are serious) being addressed, emails are more sure to be answered
than forum posts. If you are tempted to abuse this, don't forget
that I can always filter you straight into /dev/null. That
doesn't mean that I don't like you, though.

I am on GMT +01:00. My email: chapman@eeh.ee.ethz.ch

Awaiting your responses,
Mike


<hr>The most important part of the P-40 for me will be it's damage model, since that's what I'll be sporting the most...

http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/images/il2/P-40E_sig.jpg

michapma
10-09-2002, 12:42 PM
I like you guys, but I don't know how to model in 3D. So, I am
working on the concept of a companion book to IL-2 under the
working title "A User's Guide to IL-2 Sturmovik". I intend for it
to become a contribution to the IL-2 community and a big thank-you
to the 1C:Maddox Team for their hard work and dedication.

The book is intended to be practical and enjoyable for both
established fans and newcomers. Now I am not competent to write
the book alone, so I would like to appeal to the vast resources
of the IL-2 community on and beyond these forums. It should become
a book for users by users. Generous credit will be given to all
contributors.

I consider that the work should be serious but relaxed and easy
to read, and have at least the following content:

<dl>
<dt>Introduction:</dt>
<dd>The reader must be supplied with the purpose and scope of
the book, and, since the book ought to cover everything from
historical and technical detail to energy fighting, he should get
excited about the many things to be learned. In addition, this is
a chance to expound on the aim of the simulation itself and
provide other valuable insight.</dd>

<dt>Historical Background:</dt>
<dd>Similar to the Western Allied powers at the time, I am not
very knowledgeable about the Eastern Front. Here is where the
contributor can thrill and horrify with the factual history of
this terrible struggle. There is even room for historical pilot
accounts. Obviously plagiarism becomes a number one concern
here.</dd>

<dt>Machines and Loadouts:</dt>
<dd>The software itself provides plenty of info on this topic.
However, if we can agree to disagree, this is a good place to
give our own hints on: how to fly, mangle and manage the various
land, sea and air machines; the philosophy of what hardware for
what plane for what situation. Little histories and general
behavior or properties/strategies appropriate to the contraption
in question. Due to the potential for endless debate, we will
have to take this seriously meant section with a teensie grain of
salt, but I think general facts can be laid out.</dd>

<dt>Flight and Combat:</dt>
<dd>The biggie. Not just take-off, landing, scissors and loops.
Ever read stuff about energy fighting? How to attack bombers
using team tactics? Obviously a non-controversial topic. If
enough authors contribute, this chapter may have to simply
address various points of view. It still out to be of vast
benefit for those seeking to learn a thing or two and become good
combat pilots.</dd>

<dt>Technical Hints:</dt>
<dd>This is not meant to become a FAQ, but some of the well-known
technical topics or oddities can be quickly hashed out for the
reader, especially newcomers. All kinds of neat tips and tricks
and tips may be found appropriate, but the text should remain
readable and well organized.</dd>

<dt>Online Resources:</dt>
<dd>Anything from a simple listing to a review of websites, and
what can be found where. A summary of available 3rd party
software can also be provided.</dd>

Here are a few points that I consider to already be fairly clear.

Debate: There are inevitably many issues on which there will or
can be no agreement. With such issues there are at least three
possibilities: exclude the issue altogether, mention the issue but
dismiss it in the text as controversial, or cover the issue with
arguments from the various sides and let the reader draw her own
conclusion. Debate is not an option in a book format, and taking
one-sided stances is to be avoided if the subject is truly
controversial.

Editor: Obviously a work of such scope composed of the work of
several authors will require extensive editing in order to have a
congruous style. Although my patience has not yet been tested, I
consider myself sufficiently competent and able for the task,
especially since this thing isn't going to be published. All
serious and reasonably punctual editorial assistance will be
welcomed, although somebody has to have the final say. I am also
willing to maintain and update the work, though not indefinitely.

Language: Should not be too big of an issue. Don't hesitate to
contribute just because English is not your strongpoint. As
editor I would feel obliged to enforce a fairly high level, but
am willing to do that work and communicate with contributors. I
am not stuck on "American English" (an oxymoron?), but since that
is what I know that is what I will produce. If somebody wants to
translate the work into any other language &mdash; including
British English &mdash; great. I plan to write in LaTeX.

Time: Nobody wants to get involved in a work that just drags on
and never comes to a finished project. Hence some things may end
up being sacrificed in the interest of practicality. If
contributors are numerous, enthusiastic and speedy, I envision
that an initial draft can be released within two to three months
from today. I find it a good goal to be finished by the time
Forgotten Battles is released, since active participation in this
project is likely to drop dramatically at that point. Whether I
can manage my own contribution to the project also depends on my
schedule, which promises to become dramatically anyway more
hectic in the coming months.

Finality: The last patch for IL-2 has essentially been released.
After we all get experience with Final Battles, a companion guide
or a "revised edition" can be written.

Size: It ought to be a book, but not overwhelming. In any case,
if it is as well organized as I would like &mdash; and that is
largely my job &mdash; the reader will be able to easily pick and
choose. Anywhere between 50 to 100 pages of main text (excluding
front matter) ought to do. It must also be downloadable. This can
get to be a great challenge if many illustrations become
necessary.

This, then, is an official invitation to the IL-2 community to put
your thoughts together and produce something that will improve
our community, show our gratitude to Oleg and team, and be of
great assistance to oldies and newbies alike. How about it?

I have been here long enough to realize that I will have to
filter through a lot of, um, uninteresting posts in order to see
some useful ideas. Please realize that I do not feel obliged to
reply to any response other than serious inquiries and offers to
help. If in the future you do not see your concerns (given they
are serious) being addressed, emails are more sure to be answered
than forum posts. If you are tempted to abuse this, don't forget
that I can always filter you straight into /dev/null. That
doesn't mean that I don't like you, though.

I am on GMT +01:00. My email: chapman@eeh.ee.ethz.ch

Awaiting your responses,
Mike


<hr>The most important part of the P-40 for me will be it's damage model, since that's what I'll be sporting the most...

http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/images/il2/P-40E_sig.jpg

michapma
10-09-2002, 06:12 PM
So far I have one response, an excellent start.

Who has material and knowledge they are willing to contribute?

In other words: bump.
Mike

<hr>The most important part of the P-40 for me will be it's damage model, since that's what I'll be sporting the most...

http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/images/il2/P-40E_sig.jpg

michapma
10-11-2002, 03:02 PM
Here's a question: how does one get a thread completely ignored?

Ask for help on a big project.

Bump.

Smilingly,
Mike

"But owing to the unlucky discovery by an immature civilisation of the internal combustion engine and the art of flying, a new weapon of national rivalry had leapt upon the scene capable of altering much more rapidly the relative war-power of States. Granted a share in the ever-accumulating knowledge of mankind and in the march of Science, only four or five years might be required by a nation of the first magnitude, devoting itself to the task, to create a powerful, and perhpas a supreme, Air Force."
- Winston Churchill, The Second World War

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2002, 03:07 PM
Hey Mike,

I got your PM. I am interested, I have just been too busy to respond. I too had thought about a book, but I am not an author, so I started a website instead. That has also taken a lot of my time. While being more interactive, a website can not cover all the things you are trying to cover.

I would like to be involved, but I do not know how much. I can certainly help writing. I probably would become a major contributor given the time. What is your timeframe? Are you seriously thinking about getting this published? Do you have any publishing experience?

I will be able to read your post more thoroughly over the weekend, and can then respond to you with more from my end. Thanks, and chin up! The website I built is 99% me and 1% contributions from the community... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



<font size=2>kajr_777_AVG
<hr width=85><font size=2>Unofficial IL-2 Community FAQ (http://www.sturmovik101.com/faq.htm)
<hr width=85><font size=2>Armament Reference & Loadout Guides (http://www.sturmovik101.com/armament/)
<hr width=85><font size=2>Screenshot Gallery (http://www.sturmovik101.com/Shots/)
<hr width=85><font size=2>Cockpit Reference (http://www.sturmovik101.com/Reference/cockpits/)

&lt;script>var a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor = "#4F6D4B";a[a.length-3].bgColor = "#4F6D4B";a[a.length-4].bgColor = "#3F5D3B";if(a[a.length-5].innerHTML.indexOf("User Options")!=-1){a[a.length-5].bgColor = "#3F5D3B";a[a.length-8].bgColor = "#3F5D3B";}else{a[a.length-7].bgColor = "#3F5D3B";}</script>&lt;script>var YourPicName="http://www.sturmovik101.com/Shots/Post/avatar.jpg"</script>&lt;script>var a=document.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName;o.width=165;o.height=36</script><font color=#2F4D2B>

michapma
10-11-2002, 03:46 PM
kajr wrote:
- Hey Mike,
-
- I got your PM. I am interested, I have just been too
- busy to respond. I too had thought about a book, but
- I am not an author, so I started a website instead.
- That has also taken a lot of my time. While being
- more interactive, a website can not cover all the
- things you are trying to cover.

After reading parts of Shoot To Kill (EAW) I saw that there was certainly something that could be done to help the IL-2 community. I also realized that I am not competent to write everything by myself, even if I wanted to take the time.


- I would like to be involved, but I do not know how
- much. I can certainly help writing. I probably would
- become a major contributor given the time. What is
- your timeframe? Are you seriously thinking about
- getting this published? Do you have any publishing
- experience?

As you will see when you have time to read the original post more carefully, I hope to be able to get a first copy out in 2 or 3 months' time. This first copy need not be a finished product and could even have gaping holes, but it would serve to get feedback from and generate interest in the community, so that we get more help and know just how complete to make it.

I don't think it's necessary to get it published, unless questions of copyright come up and Ubi or 1C:Maddox need to give us official rights to do certain things. No, I don't have any publishing experience, but I know it can be a major pain in the neck. By book I just mean that I am able to make a high-quality book format. The book can be principally distributed in PDF or PS format and hosted on a (my?) website.

- I will be able to read your post more thoroughly
- over the weekend, and can then respond to you with
- more from my end. Thanks, and chin up! The website I
- built is 99% me and 1% contributions from the
- community...

Oh, I'm not too worried about contributions, I'm just trying to get the ball rolling and get just a few people enthusiastic from the beginning. It is very encouraging to know that other people have considered making a book before, because if there are enough people who want to write, we'll have a book in no time, even if we have to exclude certain topics.

There's nothing to get the ball rolling like doing a huge portion of the work yourself and then asking for help. However, I decided now is the best time to do work and ask for help on an IL-2-based book, because people will start losing interest in contributing once FB comes out. I would spend more time researching and writing myself if I weren't so happy flying IL-2!

Thanks very much for your feedback.
Mike

"But owing to the unlucky discovery by an immature civilisation of the internal combustion engine and the art of flying, a new weapon of national rivalry had leapt upon the scene capable of altering much more rapidly the relative war-power of States. Granted a share in the ever-accumulating knowledge of mankind and in the march of Science, only four or five years might be required by a nation of the first magnitude, devoting itself to the task, to create a powerful, and perhpas a supreme, Air Force."
- Winston Churchill, The Second World War

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2002, 04:11 PM
Nice idea! I just hope you realise what it takes to get a book published! NOT an easy/cheap task...especially when it's related to computer sim. If you have some serious capital and a nice publisher I'll do the cover for ya.

http://64.176.32.40/IL-2/blitzpig_sig3.gif

http://64.176.32.40/IL-2/EU_WING_VVS.gif

michapma
10-11-2002, 04:41 PM
I meant to make it clear that I don't think it will be necessary to publish the book. I hope to avoid publishing the book. It is meant to be a community project for the community. If I wanted to publish my own book I wouldn't be posting about it here.

If you would like to design a cover anyway &mdash; though you won't be monetarily compensated by me &mdash; feel free to contact me. An attractive cover wouldn't hurt.

Mike

moscow_kgb wrote:
- Nice idea! I just hope you realise what it takes to
- get a book published! NOT an easy/cheap
- task...especially when it's related to computer sim.
- If you have some serious capital and a nice
- publisher I'll do the cover for ya.
-
- http://64.176.32.40/IL-2/blitzpig_sig3.gif
-
- http://64.176.32.40/IL-2/EU_WING_VVS.gif



"But owing to the unlucky discovery by an immature civilisation of the internal combustion engine and the art of flying, a new weapon of national rivalry had leapt upon the scene capable of altering much more rapidly the relative war-power of States. Granted a share in the ever-accumulating knowledge of mankind and in the march of Science, only four or five years might be required by a nation of the first magnitude, devoting itself to the task, to create a powerful, and perhpas a supreme, Air Force."
- Winston Churchill, The Second World War

michapma
10-14-2002, 08:33 AM
Hi everybody,

I apologize to those who have already had a look, but I will try to keep this thread visible for a while to make sure as many as possible can contemplate writing something.

I would like to take advantage of this bump to mention that contributions need not be lengthy. If you can give tips on performing a hammerhead, why not contact me? If you know the differences between landing various aircraft, that's a great contribution. Do you have great gunnery skills? Verbalize!

How in tarnation does one shoot down a Bf-109? What? It depends on the type? Huh? It depends on what you're flying? It even depends on your relative positions and speed?? Fascinating! Elaborate for us, please.

Seriously, instructions and tips for combat are one of the areas where I am learning and unfit to write a guide. I need help, but you don't have to do it all alone. Just contribute where you can.

Bumpitybumpitybumpity,
Mike

"But owing to the unlucky discovery by an immature civilisation of the internal combustion engine and the art of flying, a new weapon of national rivalry had leapt upon the scene capable of altering much more rapidly the relative war-power of States. Granted a share in the ever-accumulating knowledge of mankind and in the march of Science, only four or five years might be required by a nation of the first magnitude, devoting itself to the task, to create a powerful, and perhpas a supreme, Air Force."
- Winston Churchill, The Second World War

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2002, 01:30 PM
I think this is a really great idea: the authenticity and complexity of Il2 demands a decent manual, and one doesn't exist at the moment.

I'd like to volunteer a) printable maps, and b) some material on ground attack. I think a website would be a good idea where you can chart who's doing what and stake claim to a certain topic or sub topic. With luck you might get some sub editors who can organise certain sections. Actually, My editing skills would probably be superior to my game / historical knowledge, so if you want someone to lick a bunch of raw material into shape, let me know.

What do you think about adopting an 'open source' development model? i.e. when a contribution is made, it's open to peer review and redrafting, and if you deem the redraft worthwhile, it replaces the original.

There is some frighteningly in depth knowledge on this board that deserves to be recorded in a more durable format. Are you approaching the known experts direct?

This will be a difficult project to pull off, but it SHOULD be done and my fingers are crossed that it will happen!

michapma
10-14-2002, 07:01 PM
mikeyg007 wrote:
- I think this is a really great idea: the
- authenticity and complexity of Il2 demands a decent
- manual, and one doesn't exist at the moment.

Well, the manual that comes with the game isn't nothing, but obviously I agree with what you're saying.

- I'd like to volunteer a) printable maps, and b) some
- material on ground attack. I think a website would
- be a good idea where you can chart who's doing what
- and stake claim to a certain topic or sub topic.
- With luck you might get some sub editors who can
- organise certain sections. Actually, My editing
- skills would probably be superior to my game /
- historical knowledge, so if you want someone to lick
- a bunch of raw material into shape, let me know.

Please send me a PM with your ideas (chapman@eeh.ee.ethz.ch). I would encourage you to go ahead and write something up about ground attack. Printable maps would have to be hosted on a website, as the book has to remain downloadable and the maps would have to fit within the margin boundaries, so unless a really good solution is found, any maps would be limited in size and resolution.

A basic supporting website is a good idea, and I could use some help in the form of hints on how to manage a website as I have limited experience (though I know a few basics). The website can host draft copies and the final copy, provide a means for direct feedback, give updates, and host contributed information such as maps that can't be included directly in the guide.

- What do you think about adopting an 'open source'
- development model? i.e. when a contribution is made,
- it's open to peer review and redrafting, and if you
- deem the redraft worthwhile, it replaces the
- original.

This would require an independent forum? Sounds quite complicated, and demotivating for the authors: as a contributor I would not enjoy the thought of my individual work being picked apart, especially on this forum. My idea would be that if there is a lot of feedback on a given section, the author can discuss it through private communication with others. I also hope that some might be interested in co-authoring certain sections. In general, if I find something questionable, I might consider submitting it to the forum for opinions, but this sounds like hearsay.

I think it is appropriate to release a rough draft to the IL-2 community for review and to provide the opportunity for feedback; a sort of public beta. Useful contributions can then be incorporated with author and editorial consent. You have to assure some level of protection of an author's work.

- There is some frighteningly in depth knowledge on
- this board that deserves to be recorded in a more
- durable format. Are you approaching the known
- experts direct?

You said it. I have asked one or two so far. I will make further approaches as I develop ideas and search the forums on given topics.

- This will be a difficult project to pull off, but it
- SHOULD be done and my fingers are crossed that it
- will happen!

Thanks for your encouragement, and even more for your contribution.

Send me that mail concerning your specific or general ideas.

Thanks,
Mike


"We went through hundreds of diving lessons to improve our sense of balance, and to aid us later when we would be putting fighter planes through all sorts of aerobatic gyrations . . . . Eventually I was able to balance on my head for more than twenty minutes, during which time my fellow trainees would light cigarettes for me and place them between my lips."
- Saburo Sakai, Samurai!

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2002, 11:20 PM
michapma wrote:
- A basic supporting website is a good idea, and I
- could use some help in the form of hints on how to
- manage a website as I have limited experience
- (though I know a few basics). The website can host
- draft copies and the final copy, provide a means for
- direct feedback, give updates, and host contributed
- information such as maps that can't be included
- directly in the guide.


I would be interested in hosting and managing such a website. We could set up a new domain for it, like www.IL2resources.com (http://www.IL2resources.com) or something like that. I would even be willing to front the money to register the domain...

Any ideas from the peanut gallery on a appropriate domain name for this project?



<font size=2>kajr_777_AVG
<hr width=85><font size=2>Unofficial IL-2 Community FAQ (http://www.sturmovik101.com/faq.htm)
<hr width=85><font size=2>Armament Reference & Loadout Guides (http://www.sturmovik101.com/armament/)
<hr width=85><font size=2>Screenshot Gallery (http://www.sturmovik101.com/Shots/)
<hr width=85><font size=2>Cockpit Reference (http://www.sturmovik101.com/Reference/cockpits/)

http://www.il2airracing.com/images/IL2AirRacing.gif (http://www.il2airracing.com/)
&lt;script>var a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor = "#4F6D4B";a[a.length-3].bgColor = "#4F6D4B";a[a.length-4].bgColor = "#3F5D3B";if(a[a.length-5].innerHTML.indexOf("User Options")!=-1){a[a.length-5].bgColor = "#3F5D3B";a[a.length-8].bgColor = "#3F5D3B";}else{a[a.length-7].bgColor = "#3F5D3B";}</script>&lt;script>var YourPicName="http://www.sturmovik101.com/Shots/Post/avatar.jpg"</script>&lt;script>var a=document.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName;o.width=165;o.height=36</script><font color=#2F4D2B>

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2002, 11:43 PM
IL2 for dummies. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

No, seriously, I would call the site "IL2 Inside-Out" or "IL2 Insider"

<center>Never thought it possible...<center>

<center><font size="3"><font color="navy">Squad CO of the 17thVFW Lightning Dragons</font><center>

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2002, 01:01 AM
S! Sir, Are you looking for something like this:

http://phantomfighters.sqhq.net/Admin/function/STKEAWv1-06.pdf

I have used this manual many times. We keep it in our site for quick reference. It is a very well written piece.



PF-Coastie

http://home.earthlink.net/~joboken/_uimages/PFBannerIL2.jpg

michapma
10-15-2002, 10:40 AM
kajr wrote:
- I would be interested in hosting and managing such a
- website. We could set up a new domain for it, like
- www.IL2resources.com (http://www.IL2resources.com) or something like that. I would
- even be willing to front the money to register the
- domain...

Wonderful! How much does the domain registration cost? Is it an annual fee?

- Any ideas from the peanut gallery on a appropriate
- domain name for this project?

Hmm. Since the title "An IL-2 User's Guide" is only a working title, it would be difficult to give the URL the same name as the final title, if the site is set up before the work is in a more developed stage. Maybe someone will come up with a great

Mike title!

"We went through hundreds of diving lessons to improve our sense of balance, and to aid us later when we would be putting fighter planes through all sorts of aerobatic gyrations . . . . Eventually I was able to balance on my head for more than twenty minutes, during which time my fellow trainees would light cigarettes for me and place them between my lips."
- Saburo Sakai, Samurai!

michapma
10-15-2002, 10:44 AM
PF_Coastie wrote:
- S! Sir, Are you looking for something like this:
-
- I have used this manual many times. We keep it in
- our site for quick reference. It is a very well
- written piece.


It is precisely this well-written document that inspired me to start this project. It is my intention to give credit to Mark Kratzer for this in the acknowledgements, and as soon as the project gets off the ground I will contact him to thank him.

Mike

"We went through hundreds of diving lessons to improve our sense of balance, and to aid us later when we would be putting fighter planes through all sorts of aerobatic gyrations . . . . Eventually I was able to balance on my head for more than twenty minutes, during which time my fellow trainees would light cigarettes for me and place them between my lips."
- Saburo Sakai, Samurai!

michapma
10-15-2002, 10:46 AM
J_A_M_F_ wrote:
- IL2 for dummies. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- No, seriously, I would call the site "IL2
- Inside-Out" or "IL2 Insider"

The only problem I see is that it is not very original, nor does it accurately describe the guide's purpose. "A User's Guide to IL-2" describes the purpose, but is also not very orginal...

Mike

"We went through hundreds of diving lessons to improve our sense of balance, and to aid us later when we would be putting fighter planes through all sorts of aerobatic gyrations . . . . Eventually I was able to balance on my head for more than twenty minutes, during which time my fellow trainees would light cigarettes for me and place them between my lips."
- Saburo Sakai, Samurai!

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2002, 03:54 PM
Well... I'd be interested in writing useful tech docs for the aircraft. Mainly since I think they're badly needed. What I'm not interested in is digging around to find the data. Test flying, yes, done that quite a bit in Il-2. But I don't have time or resources to go dig up the info.

The ideal situation would be to get a group together, entrusted by 1C to create a POH to be linked from their site or, even better, shipped with their products. They're already taking user contributions of 3D models so why not accept user contributions here as well?

I want 1C to support since they are already sitting on all the data. They probably have the original POHs for most of the flyables. These would just need adaption to Il-2. If 1C won't do it (and Oleg said they won't), why not let others do it for free? They'd only help out with the necessary background material - a win-win situation.

Writing docs for aircraft is a piece of cake when you have good background material. When you don't, it is a PITA. It's what I do for a living so I know that all too well...

Cheers,
Fred

michapma
10-16-2002, 05:10 PM
effte wrote:
- The ideal situation would be to get a group
- together, entrusted by 1C to create a POH to be
- linked from their site or, even better, shipped with
- their products. They're already taking user
- contributions of 3D models so why not accept user
- contributions here as well?

The intended scope of the user's guide is more or less to provide basic and practical information for those new to the sim and to round out current users' knowledge in areas where they lack. In the same way that a 50-page historical background would only be skipped over and indeed serve as a hindrance to anything being read, highly detailed technical data is likely to be ignored by the vast majority and could even detract from the book. You could, however, write independent technical documents, or even create a technical appendix with this material.

However, I think that basic information such as maximum speed, climb rates, stall speed, max flap-deployment speed, corner speed, and a few others are not too much and may be directly helpful, even for beginners. It could be interesting to lay some specs out in tabular form for easier comparison. This is quite well and has a place in a user's guide.

You're right, this info is not just lying around for all our plane types. Perhaps we will be able to get the 1C:Maddox team to give us some basic info. If we are not asking for secret stuff, I don't see why they wouldn't supply it. However, I think using the forums is not the way to go about it. Note that some data are already provided for each plane at the official site (http://www.il2sturmovik.com/download/media/site_kit.zip), specifically: type, weight, dimensions, engine, power, speed, turn time, climb rates, ceiling, range and armament, although too often the fields are not completed.

If we can't persuade the team to provide us with some of the basic data, then we do what we can, namely provide hints about the capabilities of each major type of aircraft based on our own observations. This is what I would like to see, even if it involves a minimum of technical specifications. So there is room for technical detail, but lacking that we ought anyway to provide some handy tips in the context of the simulator.

Why don't you make a list of the exact data you would like to include, and we can go from there?

Btw, what does POH mean? A certain kind of handbook?

Mike

"We went through hundreds of diving lessons to improve our sense of balance, and to aid us later when we would be putting fighter planes through all sorts of aerobatic gyrations . . . . Eventually I was able to balance on my head for more than twenty minutes, during which time my fellow trainees would light cigarettes for me and place them between my lips."
- Saburo Sakai, Samurai!

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2002, 03:37 PM
Quoted text by michapma.

- anything being read, highly detailed technical data
- is likely to be ignored by the vast majority and
- could even detract from the book.

Hey, where did I mention detailed technical data? I was talking about a POH, not a maintenance manual. In a POH you'll find the information necessary to fly the aircraft effectively, nothing more. It is supposed to be understandable to pile-its, after all... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

V speeds, limitations, MP/RPM settings, leaning procedures. That would be about as technical as it gets. What you need to fly and fight safely and get the design performance out of your aircraft. All adapted for the aircraft in Il-2, as I'm of the opinion that whatever the performance of the real aircraft was, we have to live with the in-game performance and that is what matters to us.

Other basic data such as SEP charts would be nice as well. That's definitely moving into a territory only a portion of the users will care about, but when talking relative performance and how to get an edge in aerial combat, it is crucial information.

- Note that some
- data are already provided for each plane at the official -- site, specifically: type,
- weight, dimensions, engine, power, speed, turn time,
- climb rates, ceiling, range and armament, although
- too often the fields are not completed.

The fields are not completed, nor do most of them matter when you're flying the bloody things rather than reading about them. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Oh, now I see why you misunderstood. POH = Pilot's Operating Handbook. THE document when you are to fly an aircraft.

Cheers,
Fred

P.S. SEP = Specific Excess Power, the power you have available to climb or turn with at a given airspeed/altitude combination.

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2002, 05:49 PM
I've got a few of flying manuals from WW2 - basic navigation, landing techniques, stall and spin recovery, all that kind of thing - I've found it useful, and I'd like to share it, so I can set to with the scanner and add that to the pot if you can use it.

michapma
10-17-2002, 05:53 PM
mikeyg007 wrote:
- I've got a few of flying manuals from WW2 - basic
- navigation, landing techniques, stall and spin
- recovery, all that kind of thing - I've found it
- useful, and I'd like to share it, so I can set to
- with the scanner and add that to the pot if you can
- use it.

Please. I will contact Ham about this as well.

Mike

"We went through hundreds of diving lessons to improve our sense of balance, and to aid us later when we would be putting fighter planes through all sorts of aerobatic gyrations . . . . Eventually I was able to balance on my head for more than twenty minutes, during which time my fellow trainees would light cigarettes for me and place them between my lips."
- Saburo Sakai, Samurai!

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2002, 07:18 PM
I offered to write the server ediquette and realism setting explinations portion, as well as a bit on squadrons and squadron membership.

What I'd like to see in the technical portion is a brief description of each aircraft including a short historical summary, a few stats, and the strengths and weaknesses of it. For example, the I-16 is a turn fighter, and is strong against early 109's, but dogfood for a later 190 using BnZ tactics.

Same for guns and munitions - I'm still not clear as to the difference between the two types of rockets for the VVS and which one to load for which target....

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2002, 08:20 PM
Hey, I'll help. I've got some good experience (in the game) in the P-39, and I can help out in basically any other (some more than others/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )
PM me if you want me to help, I'm too lazy to read thru all these posts /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

My name is a result of an error. Please don't pester me about it.

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2002, 02:52 AM
bump ..


Actually this project may be financially viable enough for someone to take on fulltime .. there do not seem to be much in the way of IL2 books out there yet.

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2002, 04:54 AM
A user's guide to IL-2 is certainly a noble idea. Yet, after reading the inital post of michapma, I have some thoughts I would like to share. I hope I don't get flamed, as they are simply some ideas you may want to consider.

To start off, looking at the proposed content, I don't believe one can fit even close to all the information onto 100 pages, even without any pictures or illustrations. IL-2 can be an extremely complex and deep simulation.

Basically, I would suggest a massive website, containing everything (and more) that michapma has mentioned. With such a website, you could have much more detailed information than any 100 page book.

Let me list some reasons for going with a website over a book:

- IL-2 is an ever-changing animal. The present version (1.2) is a totally different game than the original boxed version. With numerous patches and added features, the game is constantly changing. Many parts of a book, although well written, may easily be obsolete in 3-6 months. Also, let's not forget that Forgotten Battles will have new FM's, damage models, flyable planes, etc. A book written TODAY would lose much of it's relevance as soon as FB hits the shelves. And more planes, patches and features will most likely follow after that.

So although a book as comprehensive as michapma proposes sounds like a good idea, can it really stand the test of time when it comes to an ever-changing game as IL-2? With a website, new information can be updated\added almost immediately.

- From what I know about IL-2, 100 pages cannot even come close to including all the detailed information which has been proposed. This is where a website has a huge advantage. Not to mention all the illustrations\pictures\screenshots which could never fit into the book. Don't underestimate the importance of visual aids in this kind of manual. As the saying goes...'A picture is worth a thousand words.' /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

A website can also include quick links to articles\features relevant to IL-2. I have recently read some great online articles on combat maneuvers, use of trim, etc. Yes, I suppose these links can be included in a book, but of course anything that appears after the book is issued would not be listed. Also, I really believe the ease of online links would get so much more use.

- If you are looking to reach the largest audience, I believe a website would reach many more people than a book. Without going into too much detail, I think the website traffic would far excede any amount of physical books in actual players hands.


I understand that a website is a totally different project compared to a written manual. Any associated differences would of course have to be considered and evaluated.

Ok, I have some other thoughts, but I'll leave it at this for now. I want to state that I am in no way bashing the idea of a book. I think it's a great idea and an excellent simulation such as IL-2 is certainly deserving of it. I simply wanted to throw in my 2 cents and possibly be of some help.

Disclaimer: Due to time constraints, I have not completely read all of the posts in this thread. I apologize for this. If anything I have stated conflicts with something in another post, please forgive me. In any event, good luck with the project.

Aviar

michapma
10-18-2002, 08:46 AM
Aviar,

FLAME! Your feedback is actually very much appreciated. I have thought about these issues, and I'd like to address them as well as I can for everyone.

First of all, I primarily meant for the book to be available online, not published and printed, but printable. As an online book, it can be just as easily updated as a webpage.

On the other hand, you are right and wrong about the 100 pages. (Besides, if the book becomes 200 pages, why not?) The thing to realize is that I don't plan to put everything about IL-2 in the book. (I will only be able to put it what I and others write, anyway.) Some things just can't be put in a book. This is why I am very glad that kajr is willing to help out with hosting a website. I said or at least hinted earlier that I would like to host the book on a website. Obviously the two can go together. Dynamic content for the website, textual content for the book.

There are three motivations I can think of to stay with the book idea. One is that you can't take a webpage with you, another is that it is much more difficult to make a webpage readable than a book, and the third is quite simply that I am much better at and prefer working with the book format than with html. I know html okay, but am not familiar with all the niceties required to make a webpage look spiffy and readable. So, if I am to do the editing, I would prefer to produce most of the text as a book.

Hopefully we can end up with all information in the book also in html format. That way, people can browse through the book if they prefer, or can take it with them in book format.

I'd better stop now before I get carried away with visions of grandeur. I plan to try to organize things a bit over the weekend, and hopefully I can start taking advantage of the offers to help that have been given.

Oh yeah, the number one reason to make a book: P-39 centerfold. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Mike

"We went through hundreds of diving lessons to improve our sense of balance, and to aid us later when we would be putting fighter planes through all sorts of aerobatic gyrations . . . . Eventually I was able to balance on my head for more than twenty minutes, during which time my fellow trainees would light cigarettes for me and place them between my lips."
- Saburo Sakai, Samurai!

michapma
10-18-2002, 10:05 AM
Okay, as a way of keeping things organized, I'll sum up here who has volunteered their help in tackling the project. In the future I will probably make a little web page to track updates to the project, and I can list the projects and which members are working on what if people find that helpful. It will eventually become necessary to start email lists for various topics. Unfortunately my methods of doing this will be relatively primitive, but it should work. If I don't have your email address, then I can't include you in any email updates. You can PM me at <chapman@eeh.ee.ethz.ch>.
<table width="100%"><tr><td>Person</td> <td>offer of help</td><td>email?</td></tr><tr><td>Mordred_S</td> <td>writing historical background</td><td>yes</td></tr><tr><td>BA_Dart</td> <td>server etiquette, realism settings, squadrons & membership</td><td>yes</td></tr><tr><td>kajr</td> <td>writing (armament, others?), hosting/managing website, longterm help</td><td>yes</td></tr><tr><td>moscow_kgb</td> <td>do a cover if highly paid</td><td>no</td></tr><tr><td>mikeyg007</td> <td>printable maps, material on ground attack, editing, make some flying manuals available</td><td>no</td></tr><tr><td>effte</td> <td>technical documentation for aircraft (support from 1C:Maddox?)</td><td>no</td></tr><tr><td>Unkown_Target</td><td>experience in P-39, general help, laziness in reading posts</td><td>no</td></tr></table>

In addition, the following people have already provided some help, so maybe if we twist their arm they'll contribute more:
<table width="100%"><tr><td>Tully_78th</td> <td>technical material, diagrams (have email)</td></tr><tr><td>Wepps</td><td>gave us a summary of historical background, recommended a book</td></tr></table>

The following have offered useful advice, and I would encourage to them help in other ways as well:
<table width="100%"><tr><td>galway_oz</td><td>bumping, encouragement to make professional book</td></tr><tr><td>Aviar</td> <td>reasons to make massive website</td></tr></table>

I have also contacted and invited the following members of our community to contribute: WWSensei, who is actively involved with Wing Walkers and provides exceedingly sound tactical advice; Ham, who runs an outstanding website (ham.dogfighter.com)and has admitted that checklists are one of his favorite subjects. I expect responses within a few days.

I have in mind to contact a couple of other community experts, but so far that sums things up. Please make any recommendations of whom else I might contact to invite collaboration.

Mike


"We went through hundreds of diving lessons to improve our sense of balance, and to aid us later when we would be putting fighter planes through all sorts of aerobatic gyrations . . . . Eventually I was able to balance on my head for more than twenty minutes, during which time my fellow trainees would light cigarettes for me and place them between my lips."
- Saburo Sakai, Samurai!

michapma
11-06-2002, 11:17 AM
Okay, after a bit of a wait I am bumping this thread. I would like to hear from potential contributors if there has been any progress. If there has not been any progress, no problem, but I would still like to hear some news. From my side there has not been a great deal more, just some writing in the introduction.

I also want to keep the ideas visible to those who aren't aware of the project or are sitting on the fence over whether they might be able to contribute something.

Contribute or be despised, /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Mike

http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/images/p39n1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2002, 01:53 PM
I can edit/proofread if you have a need for someone. If any of the material you've seen me post about in the forums is desirable,let me know and I'll see what I can do.

================================================== =========================

<center> <img src=http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/Corsair.jpg </img> </center>


Salut
Tully

michapma
11-06-2002, 02:15 PM
Hmm. Tully, that's a lot of material to go through! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I have noted your willingness to edit, that should come in handy. First we need material. I am not currently finding time to write much, but I may bounce some ideas off of the forums about an introduction in the not too distant future.

Mike

http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/images/p39n1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2002, 04:01 PM
michampa.

this is a much needed and great cause

Id like to make a suggestion, that is if you havent already thought of it or have something like in place....that might help

In short it would involve automating the process of compiling and storing all this information in a database which could be accessed via the net. Contributors could make submissions under selected headings (headings like you posted above). after each submission the entry can be reviewed, edited if need be, then flagged approved.


I already have some like this set up on my squad's site using mySQL and PHP (its open source..as in free). YOu are welcome to the code and db arch.


but it might be better to explain in detail in an email

feel free to email me face2six@yahoo.com

'blur'ski

When you give up freedom for security you have neither


Message Edited on 11/06/0210:03AM by blurski

michapma
11-06-2002, 05:27 PM
blurski,

I have used CVS for writing Template Toolkit code to automatically generate a multi-page website through database access (also MySQL, though I'm not very familiar with that), so I at least have an idea about how open source development. However, the problem as I see it lies not in the idea of open-source development, but in the co-ordination of access software among authors, as well as in the authorization of changes. Noone could check out all changes fast enough, so the co-authors would have to be patient with each other and just co-develop their work and submit the work for review at some stage. I think.

Anyway I just don't know if the authors are willing to work with that kind of interface, because they will have to learn the methods of accessing, committing changes, resolving conflicts, etc. My thought is that if the number of contributors remains manageable, we could possibly work things out by email and I'll keep a master copy on our server and backups. I don't want to scare off potential contributors by throwing that at them, but if we are to do something like this, we have to implement it more or less from the beginning.

However, if this can be managed with a convenient web-page interface which is intuitive, then it might be worth it. Obviously we would have to work out which modules (headings as you say) can be accessed by whom and a system of passwords. Such a system would make it a whole lot easier for people to come and go in the project.

In any case if we are to adapt some kind of open-source database, somebody else will have to organize it...

Ain't it great to be part of a great cause. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/images/p39n1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2002, 08:37 PM
NOTE
All s's in this post has been replaced with Zs - otherwise I cannot post - forum says i wrote zhit somewhere !!!


I work with a great web-publizhing tool called 'eZPublizh'.

It iz very well zuited for thiz tazk - it haz verzioning (not with diff though, it ztorez an article and if you make a change it ztorez the new article and keepz the old for reference)

Alzo it haz categorization, uzer accezz levelz, pazzwordz the whole zhebang.

If zomeone would volunteer a Linux zerver, I'd be happy to zet it up.



(oh - it haz image handling and file handling az well + forums and commentaries to articles and well...... requirements are: PHP, MySQL, ImageMagick).

It can all be administered from a webinterface by non-programmers.

It stores all text in XML so extraction to other medias is fairly easy.


<center><h2>SKULLS_Yanev</h2>http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/pics/shield.gif

Tovarishi Sokoly - Vverh, Vverh, Vverh Za Rodinu!!</center>


Message Edited on 11/06/0208:49PM by SKULLS_Yanev

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2002, 08:44 PM
SKULLS_Yanev wrote:
- I work with a great web-publizhing tool called
- 'eZPublizh'.
-
- It....


There your poopy, last four alphabetic characters.

================================================== =========================

<center> <img src=http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/Corsair.jpg </img> </center>


Salut
Tully

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2002, 06:58 AM
Hi Michapma, I can offer some translation into Spanish if needed (I spent 2 years translating Aircraft technical manuals for the national flight school in Peru), also I will make some copies of original booklets given to american pilots during WW2,, about weather and basic navigation, among other goodies, if you can send me your street address via private mail on ubi I can fedex it to you overnight (in US) or 3 days overseas as soon I have color copies so you can scan them, will try to photocopy some pages of jane's all the world aircraft book 1940...saw it at public library a while ago and some material is gold.
just my grain of salt here.

Ali Yorunda mafe...ke ta fe ali?....mafe mafe.....
Yoruba

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2002, 07:39 AM
michapma wrote:
-
- blurski,
-
- I have used CVS for writing Template Toolkit code to
- automatically generate a multi-page website through
- database access (also MySQL, though I'm not very
- familiar with that), so I at least have an idea
- about how open source development. However, the
- problem as I see it lies not in the idea of
- open-source development, but in the co-ordination of
- access software among authors, as well as in the
- authorization of changes. Noone could check out all
- changes fast enough, so the co-authors would have to
- be patient with each other and just co-develop their
- work and submit the work for review at some stage. I
- think.
-
- Anyway I just don't know if the authors are willing
- to work with that kind of interface, because they
- will have to learn the methods of accessing,
- committing changes, resolving conflicts, etc. My
- thought is that if the number of contributors
- remains manageable, we could possibly work things
- out by email and I'll keep a master copy on our
- server and backups. I don't want to scare off
- potential contributors by throwing that at them, but
- if we are to do something like this, we have to
- implement it more or less from the beginning.
-
- However, if this can be managed with a convenient
- web-page interface which is intuitive, then it might
- be worth it. Obviously we would have to work out
- which modules (headings as you say) can be accessed
- by whom and a system of passwords. Such a system
- would make it a whole lot easier for people to come
- and go in the project.
-
- In any case if we are to adapt some kind of
- open-source database, somebody else will have to
- organize it...
-
- Ain't it great to be part of a great cause. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
-
-
-
- <img
- src="http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/
- images/p39n1.jpg" alt="p39n1.jpg">



hrm I hadnt considered version control but it shouldnt be to difficult to implement something adequate for contributors needs....
Also yes I was thinking something like a very simple yet flexible web interface . NO scary stuff like Visual Source Safe( another wonderful MS product that made my life a living he1)... just Login and submit...and what ever other doodads you need to make it work for you.

check your email. Ill send you an outline that might help.

Also Ive never used it but the Ezpublish sounds cool too



'blur'ski

Reporter - "Mr Gandhi, what do you think of western civilization"?

Mr Gandhi - "I think it would be a very good idea"

michapma
11-07-2002, 12:45 PM
Hey Loco-S,

A Spanish translation would rock, espeically if it's high quality, as your experience indicates it will be. If you can't translate the whole work (it will be long), we'll just have to do what we can.

Those original booklets sound good beyond belief. I am guessing their copyright will have long since expired. I'm not sure what it is you want to send (originals or copies), but I do have a decent scanner so I will PM you my address. No bombs, please.

Concerning the Jane's material, I am assuming it is copyrighted material, so we'll have to look carefully at what we can do there.

By the way, what does your sig mean? I don't even recognize the language, thought it was Portugese or something.

Mike

http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/images/p39n1.jpg

michapma
11-07-2002, 01:53 PM
SKULLS_Yanev, blurski,

This sounds like a good idea. The eZPublish sounds fine, or whatver interface that doesn't require the purchasing of expensive software sounds okay. This is something that we can set up when we establish a domain. The database and access should be able to be hosted by the same server as the website.

My, there really are a few people willing to help out with this project. Looks like I'd better spend more time writing and organizing. I think I'll spend some time going searching the forums for interesting material.

<font size=2>If anyone can think of threads (even if from way back) with interesting discussions (not so much debates) on topics that belong in a User's Guide, please submit the links here.</font>

Thanks for the enthusiasm,
Mike

http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/images/p39n1.jpg

michapma
11-08-2002, 10:14 AM
Concerning a domain name:

I suggest il2guide, as in www.il2guide.com (http://www.il2guide.com) or something similar.

The only possible problem I see with this is if there eventually will be some conflict with the name Forgotten Battles.

Mike

http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/images/p39n1.jpg

michapma
12-24-2002, 01:09 PM
I would like to hear from some of you guys to see what progress has been made. Nothing much has come from my side as I've been extremely busy in the last several weeks, and have chosen to fly more than write. However, I now have several days with which to be active on whatever I want, so I would like to get reorganized and make a push to advance the user's guide. Several new people are coming to the forums and asking for general advice, and a couple have directly asked about a manual.

My thought is that if in January we can deliver a small, rough version it will be much easier to build from there. Let's coordinate for the holidays!

Cheers,
Mike

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XyZspineZyX
12-25-2002, 06:42 PM
good luck with your efforts.
i couldnt presume to give anyone advise except maybe:
"how to get shot down in 2 easy steps"
ho ho ho, merry christmas

<center> <img src=http://www.acepilots.com/f6f.jpg <img> </center>

regards: surveyor_1

michapma
12-27-2002, 10:15 AM
Bump.

Does anyone have progress to report?

Mike

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XyZspineZyX
12-27-2002, 08:34 PM
Well I HAVE been thinking about it but I confess, no, I haven't put anything down yet. :-(

But thanks for the bump: I'll get something on disk over the next week.

XyZspineZyX
01-04-2003, 05:56 AM
Yo Michapma, fedex tracking number on your PM, I have sent u a disk with some material for the Users guide,I think could be good info, about use of jet engines ( Braniff material) and scanned book from Pratt & whitney engines, also some German eastern front maps and some other goodies ( check it out some copies from 1941 janes ...and BF 109 k4 pilot manual, if you can translate it with all the pictures could be a great asset here....)
CYA

Baila Jijuna

michapma
01-04-2003, 12:07 PM
Hi Loco-S, got your PMs. I am excited to read the new material you've sent. However, before I can include some of the material I am sure I will have to check on copyrights. Of course I can cite information, but not just include it, unless the copyright is expired.

The idea of the guide is to provide both new users and any users who would like to learn more with practical information on the sim. That means that the information will be distilled into something readable and less detailed. The reader will be given references where he/she can read further, and any images will be included only with permission unless they are public domain. I know it's dumb, but that's the way it has to be if it is to be a document for public access.

Regards,
Mike

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michapma
01-04-2003, 01:23 PM
Since Loco-S bumped this thread, I am going to give an update on what I've been doing. Over the last week or so I have been putting down some of my thoughts. Here are the chapters as they stand, and roughly what progress has been made.

Introduction
This is something I plan to write more or less on my own. I have already written a bit, but most will follow when the rest of the work has been by and large written.

Airwar on the Eastern Front
I still haven't done any research of my own on the historical aspects of the conflict, but I still think this is a very important part of the overall work. Writers very much needed!

Machines of war
Today I've organized the chapter on aircraft just a bit. There is plenty of information available about the various aircraft online at the official site and in the view objects area. What I would like to add here is an overview of what aircraft there are and what they are for, but especially interesting aspects of the aircraft in the sim from our point of view. Examples are tips for fighting in the P-39, the differences between the various Bf109 models, ditto for the IL-2s, what are the weak points of the various bombers and transports, what is interesting about the reconnaissance aircraft, and anything else we can think of that isn't just technical information. The section on aircraft is divided into VVS and Luftwaffe, and each is currrently further divided into 1) fighters and ground attack, 2) bombers and transports, and 3) reconnaisance.

I am hoping kajr will write up a distilled version of the info about armament and perhaps also loadouts (could be summarized in tabular form) from his site.

Flight
I have also been doing some research on flight and have learned a ton. I have split the chapter on "flight and combat" into a chapter on flight and a second on combat. There is a handy, easy-to-read online book that I will use for reference in this chapter. I am halfway through the chapter on flight. It is hard to distill the information to make it practical to read through. This chapter is where I have done the most writing. I don't know whether I will need help in the end, but revisions will certainly be welcome, especially hints on complicated issues like takeoffs and landings.

I am trying to write the chapter in such a way that the reader begings to understand that it is importantly to know how to fly before one can fight well, and to present the info in such a way that the reader will not be overwhelmed or lost in technical knowledge.

Combat
I have organized the chater on combat into sections and subsections. As of yet I haven't written a single word here, although I have given it some thought and I can write much of this. Still, I would need help on some parts and could use supplements. More people ought to volunteer to correct and supplement what I've written once a rough draft is released. <it>Please feel free to take over and write some of this material!</it> I am a mediocre combat pilot. I think it is worthwhile to show how I've envisioned it, so that people can jump in and write or start writing one or the other section or subsections.


<LI>Detection and closing
<LI>Gunnery

<LI>Machine guns and cannons
<LI>Angle-off shooting (Head-ons, 5-7 o'clock positions)
<LI>Deflection shooting

<LI>Basic maneuvers

<LI>Break
<LI>(Aileron) Roll
<LI>Barrel roll
<LI>Combat turn
<LI>Yo-yos
<LI>Loops

<LI>Advanced maneuvers

<LI>Scissors
<LI>Hammerhead
<LI>Snap roll

<LI>Maneuverability

<LI>Speed
<LI>Altitude
<LI>The plane (Wing loading, weight distribution, loadout and other issues, not a deep discussion though)
<LI>Corner speed
<LI>Flaps

<LI>Emergency procedures
<LI>Ground Attack (mikeyg007 is writing on this one)
<LI>Energy fighting (I can only write parts of this.)
<LI>Group tactics (I am clueless on this one and would like to learn more, but please somebody write on this.)



Technical hints
It would be good to cover some of the issues that are typically asked over and over at Technical Support. It would be great if some of the knowledgeable folks who hang out over there would take over here, as they could potentially be helping themselves out a lot.

<LI>System requirements
<LI>Terminology (frames per second, textures, antialiasing, anisotropic, etc.)
<LI>Improving performance

<LI>CPU
<LI>RAM
<LI>Graphics card
<LI>Hard disk

<LI>Further help (reference to how to use the forum)


The community
This section can be short and sweet, but needs to be written competently.

<LI>The official forums
<LI>Online resources (The main useful IL-2 sites and a few objective comments about what they are about.)
<LI>Squadrons


Back to writing,
Mike

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XyZspineZyX
01-04-2003, 05:33 PM
I think this is a GREAT idea and would be glad to help out on it, but I tend to think there are some basic issues that haven't yet been addressed sufficiently as to the real-world considerations

1. I am a book guy ... have been involved in book publishing, writing, editing, etc. for 25 years. Every time I go to a software place I look to see whether there has been an IL-2 Official Guide published yet, and there hasn't. While there is a *HUGE* amount of information available on this site and many others, it's not easy to find it all and I would really like to be able to buy a book that distills it all.

My other favorite game is Civilization in its various incarnations ... Civ2 had a wonderful guide (from Prima, iirc), Civ3 had a pretty good one but not, IMO, in the same league. But in each case they offered comprehensive and useful information, which is what I think this project should aim at.


2. Has anyone checked with Oleg & Co. to find out what their view about this is?? I suspect that the reason there isn't an "Official Guide" is that no publisher thought it would be commercially viable. This in itself is no discouragement to me, as the realities of commercial publishing are changing in the world of the Internet and such a project could well be ahead of the curve ... even if done in "download/self-print" form it could be excellent (and if excellent *enough* be picked up for publication in book form) However, to allow for this it would be key to know what the view is of the people who own the rights, whether Maddux or Ubi ... it would be a real bite in the @ss to do all the work and then be prevented from "publishing" it


3. I think there would have to be a very clearly defined concept -- there's a *big* difference between the organization of a book and the organization of a website, and somebody (michapma, I spose, since it's his idea in the first place) should decide which is the governing principle. There's no reason why the two can't exist side by side, but in terms of getting the job done, one must take precedence.

4. IMO whatever is done has to be done *completely*, by which I mean that there has to be an "entry" for everything -- some text about *every* a/c in the game (preferably in an organized, templated sort of way, so every entry is basically similar ... not so different from the descriptions in the game itself, only more detailed and based on the experience of ace players) Similarly, there should be a detailed section on "Controls", f'rinstance, describing the function of *every* control, how they work, which ones (like Airbrakes or Manual Gear) are limited to just a few planes, etc.

5. Personally I would stay away from computer tech, which changes so fast that anything is out of date almost as soon as it is codified ... some material -- Do I want a faster CPU or more RAM?? -- is worth addressing, but on the whole spending much time on this is a losing proposition, IMO ... a reference to a supported website (Hunter82's tech support??) would be much more useful

6. If I were doing this, I would think in terms of a downloadable "book" which should be printed on looseleaf, 3-hole paper to be inserted into a binder ... that way, you could add material in bits and pieces wherever it's relevant -- ie, a "new release" adding page 4b, page 125a, page 125b, and page 137a -- in passing, I think you should be thinking in terms of a *minimum* of 200 pp (tho I spose you could fool with typefaces etc to make it shorter -- most such projects use lots of white space and big type to be longer

7. I think it should incorporate FB ... if my (long) experience is any guide, it could easily take five weeks just to develop an detailed outline and assign the various subheads to contributors, and as this would be a "serious community" enterprise it's a good bet that everyone involved will quickly transition to FB -- plus the planes and features of FB will be a key interest of any potential reader

8. IMO, the "historical" stuff is interesting but readily available ... what a project like this could do best is make the *game* more accessible -- not that I have anything against background, but it's a luxury

9. Finally, if it really takes shape, you/we would need an "editorial director" to make sure everything is consistent in textual/writing terms, and (more important, IMO) a "design director" to coordinate layout and especially graphics, which would be very important in areas like combat maneuvers, take-off and landing instructions, etc ... it would also be terrific to have contributions from mission designers and skinners etc, both as to how it's done and graphics


As one who has managed any number of such projects, I'd prefer not to take on such an organizational job. But if it actually takes shape in a serious way, I would be glad to undertake editorial tasks like making everything clear and similar in tone, making sure there is not a huge amount of repetition or glaring omissions, etc ... I've done this with subjects as diverse as teaching toddlers to tie their shoes, explaining how to install and tune satellite dishes, and describing the theory of data compression for non-techheads. I think that would be a lot of fun

I should also say that I am a devoted IL-2 player but by no means an accomplished one ... I have the utmost respect for the flying/gaming talents of some people here as well as the technical expertise (and willingness to help) of others ... although I am no great threat in the skies, however, I have been designing games and playing them for 30-odd years and if I do say so myself I am pretty good at knowing when a manual is worthwhile and when it's just a quickie. My impression is that anyone here who really worked on one would want to do a really *good* one

so I'd be glad to help


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif LvT /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

ps: sorry to go on at such length ... but if it's worth doing (which it is) it's worth doing *right*

http://home.nyc.rr.com/tzoom/photos/fledersig.gif


Message Edited on 01/04/0304:40PM by LvT

michapma
01-04-2003, 07:14 PM
Hello LvT,

- 1. I am a book guy ... have been involved in book
- publishing, writing, editing, etc. for 25 years.

Cool!

- But in each case they
- offered comprehensive and useful information, which
- is what I think this project should aim at.

Useful for sure. Comprehensive...not so sure. I'm willing to write about everything I know about, but I can't make a comprehensive book by myself.


- 2. Has anyone checked with Oleg & Co. to find out
- what their view about this is?? I suspect that the
- reason there isn't an "Official Guide" is that no
- publisher thought it would be commercially viable.
...
- it would be a real bite in the @ss to do all the
- work and then be prevented from "publishing" it

Excellent point. I will have to find a way to check on this. However, I never intended for the book to be commercially produced. I really just wanted to put together a book that will help people enjoy the sim more by learning a thing or two.

- 3. I think there would have to be a very clearly
- defined concept -- there's a *big* difference
- between the organization of a book and the
- organization of a website, and somebody (michapma, I
- spose, since it's his idea in the first place)
- should decide which is the governing principle.
- There's no reason why the two can't exist side by
- side, but in terms of getting the job done, one must
- take precedence.

My intent was always to write the book. From the things that were pointed out earlier, I've expanded my vision to a website consisting of various pages. One page will be dedicated to the book, downloading it and information about it. (In this way the book can always be updated; an official book is usually released once, because it has to be paid for.) Other pages can be dedicated to miscellaneous material that don't fit into the book, such as maps and other visual material. The book comes first, the website supports and supplements the book. The website could also possibly be useful for developing the book.

- 4. IMO whatever is done has to be done *completely*,

Only if it's an official release. I intend to strive for thoroughness, although I hadn't planned to document the controls. There is room for everything that someone would like to document or write about. As I see it, the book is likely to remain a sort of fan-based project, so I don't see why we would be constrained to do everything.

- 5. Personally I would stay away from computer tech,
- which changes so fast that anything is out of date
- almost as soon as it is codified ...

Well, it seems to me that general guidelines are all that could realistically be offered anyway. That section would exist to help new users get on their feet and learn about some of the things that most of the rest of us already know, such as playing online, plus the general advice on computer performance.

- 6. If I were doing this, I would think in terms of a
- downloadable "book" which should be printed on
- looseleaf, 3-hole paper to be inserted into a binder

I figured PDF and PS format would work. I'm working with LaTeX. I don't intend to let length in pages be an issue, and I definitely think that the book can be somewhat dynamic in content. I've intended to do something more like version updates than what you've described. That means, if there are revisions to the thing, the version number is updated and is immediately available for download at the website.


- 7. I think it should incorporate FB ... if my (long)

It will be months after the release of FB before people are ready to stop flying it and start documenting it. That's why I'd like for people to be writing on this project now, before FB is released. I think the book can easily be updated, or better yet, a new book can be written based on the previous one.

So far, it is not a serious community enterprise, although I would be thrilled if it becomes that. My guess is that it will take some showing before people really start helping.

- 8. IMO, the "historical" stuff is interesting but
- readily available ... what a project like this could
- do best is make the *game* more accessible -- not
- that I have anything against background, but it's a
- luxury

Until someone gets going on it, it will remain an absent luxury, too. I've given it some thought and would like to see it, so I've assigned it a chapter, that's all.

- 9. Finally, if it really takes shape, you/we would
- need an "editorial director" [...] and
- [...] a "design director"

All of these things would be great. I'll see what I can do myself, and will humbly accept help from anybody else who'd like to contribute in this direction.

- As one who has managed any number of such projects,
- I'd prefer not to take on such an organizational
- job.

The ones who can are always the ones who are asked!

- But if it actually takes shape in a serious
- way, I would be glad to undertake editorial tasks

I just hope we don't end up with more editors than authors, no offense. I am looking forward to working with you on it. Keep up the feedback, and let me know whatever you'd like to do. I could use some professional advice, even if I wouldn't like to see this become a published book. After all, like you said, I'd like to do it as well as I can.

Over,
Mike

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XyZspineZyX
01-04-2003, 07:54 PM
Well, see, in RL there's really two kinds of editors ... the conceptual kind (that's you) and the technical kind (that's me)

I don't really know enough technical or tactical stuff to be a primary author (and I think there are plenty of *experten* around to do that) ... I DO know enough to know when someone is really good or just blowing smoke -- but where I am VERY good is turning somebody else's expertise into a finished piece

I think you're right that to get something moving *before* FB appears is a good idea

I also think it can be done ... look at all the ppl who are working on "third-party" planes within an organized framework ... the dedication is there

my last post was really just a core-dump of all my immediate thoughts ... I really think what you need to do is figure out what exactly it is you want, then enlist ppl to do bits of it ... heaven knows the knowledge is out there

I know what you mean about all kinds of editors and no writers -- personally I simply am not good enough at the game to be a "writer" but I have many years of experience at turning "experts'" work into actual ready-for-prime-time text ... most "writers" don't write nearly as well as they think they do

I have been reading these boards for a while now and I have a pretty good idea of who I would seek out for articles (as I am sure you do too, prolly more informed than me) ... IMO the thing to do would be to ask if they'd be willing (and if not, why not, simply because there may be projects going on which are *not* being talked about here)

as to "commercial," I don't think you need to have publication in mind, necessarily, but I do think you should be thinking in terms of a "publishable" project in terms of quality, simply cos that's a measurable standard

that's why I think there should be a section on "Controls" -- in fact, you could almost organize a book based purely on the FAQ -- people who access such a resource are more likely to want to know about the nuts-and-bolts of the GAME, not the realities/arguments about flight models or precisely when x version of the FW-190 was introduced

anyway, I think it's a good idea and if I can offer advice or practical assistance, I will be gald to do so

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif LvT /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://home.nyc.rr.com/tzoom/photos/fledersig.gif

michapma
01-04-2003, 09:45 PM
LvT wrote:
- Well, see, in RL there's really two kinds of editors
- ... the conceptual kind (that's you) and the
- technical kind (that's me)

Actually, technical things are sort of my strong point. I'm an electrical engineer, or I will be a real one day. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif However, although I sincerely enjoy the language and fuddling with editing in an intuitive, play-around kind of way, I have no real experience with editing. I just figured it would be good enough for what I am after. If you would like to take on the duty of editor-in-chief at some point, I will be happy to hand it over to you. I care enough about the project to put a lot of editing effort into it, but if there's somebody out there (you) who can do it at a much higher level, I'm very likely to be more than satisfied with the result.

As far as enlisting Experten, I've sent a few emails around, and started a couple of threads, but I don't really know how to enlist the help of the experts. If they're interested in being experts but not in writing then there's no enlisting to be done, but my guess is that you're right and more advertising is in order.

- I have many years
- of experience at turning "experts'" work into actual
- ready-for-prime-time text ... most "writers" don't
- write nearly as well as they think they do

I know what you mean, and I'm not even a writer. So if I have no experience editing and am not a writer, what am I doing writing and editing? I saw a hole that I would like to help fill... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

When I sent a few emails around to ask for contributions, I got mixed responses. Andy Bush was willing to let me use material from his articles rather than write things, and from one or two folks I didn't get responses. Tully seems willing to adapt some of his knowledge if I'm willing to dig out some of his posts. No one has really volunteered to write though except mikeyg007, so I just figured I would have to do most of the writing myself. This is a shame, because I'm not one of the Experten. I've been on the forums since June, but if you have specific ideas of who to ask, please name them. The only other advertisement I can think of is to create the website, but I'm not sure how much that would help.

- as to "commercial," I don't think you need to have
- publication in mind, necessarily, but I do think you
- should be thinking in terms of a "publishable"
- project in terms of quality, simply cos that's a
- measurable standard

Agreed. I wasn't thinking of publication because I'm not qualified to do it. If that's what needs to be, and the developed work can be adapted by someone competent, then that is fantastic. I repeat, I just don't know what's involved.

- that's why I think there should be a section on
- "Controls" -- in fact, you could almost organize a
- book based purely on the FAQ -- people who access
- such a resource are more likely to want to know
- about the nuts-and-bolts of the GAME, not the
- realities/arguments about flight models or precisely
- when x version of the FW-190 was introduced

I don't intend to address those kinds of issues. The work is meant to be what the working title suggests: a user's guide. It must be practical and informative, otherwise it's a waste of time. I'm not interested in releasing debatable material.

- anyway, I think it's a good idea and if I can offer
- advice or practical assistance, I will be gald to do
- so

I'll tell you what: email me at chapman@eeh.ee.ethz.ch and I'll send you a copy of whatever I have at the moment. Then you'll get a first impression and you can make whatever comments and tips to help. The work as it stands has not been edited or revised, it's more just the thoughts I've written down on material I am developing. Believe me, I'm very grateful for your encouragement.


If anybody else have any ideas about how to enlist the experts, say it! What we need now the most is to get some written material together. Nothing can be edited or revised until it's written. I've spent a lot of time during the last week's break to bring the project along, but things are going to slow down for me again now.

Cheers,
Mike

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XyZspineZyX
01-05-2003, 01:32 AM
Hello Mike,

Perhaps make the entire project web based and completely non-profit?

Cheer's, Ham

S T U R M O V I K - T E C H N I K A
http://www.il2center.com/technika/

XyZspineZyX
01-05-2003, 01:58 AM
Ham wrote:
- Hello Mike,
-
- Perhaps make the entire project web based and
- completely non-profit?
-
- Cheer's, Ham
-
- S T U R M O V I K - T E C H N I K A
- http://www.il2center.com/technika/
-
-
-
-

well, I think that's what Michapma really has in mind ... maybe I've unintentionally warped the discussion ... I don't think he was thinking primarily of a commercial proposition

what I was really meaning to suggest is that using the "template" of well-organized Official Guides -- and *aiming* for their standard -- is a good way to proceed

Personally I like hard copy that I can write in the margins and take notes, etc. but there's no reason such a thing couldn't be provided in a purely web-based format

but there are certainly first-rate "labors of love" out there -- Andy Bush and Markshot spring immediately to mind ... and if as I assume, you are the Ham of hamfighters, your own site is a total treasure

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif LvT /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


http://home.nyc.rr.com/tzoom/photos/fledersig.gif

michapma
01-05-2003, 08:51 PM
Ham,

My original intent was and remains to make the entire project completely non-profit. I am flattered that you are paying attention to this project. Sites like yours encourage me to make quality work.

LvT,

I am not thinking of a commercial proposition. I do concede that if the book has to become a commercial release in order to able to be released because of intellectual property issues, then I am willing to hand it over. In that case I refuse all personal financial profit. If there are conflicts concerning intellectual property, I will probably try to reduce the content to something I can publicly release.

Everybody,

I would like to make a document in book format that is downloadable as a PDF. If it remains a non-profit effort as I sincerely hope, the book should be able to be updated with new information. This includes adapting or reworking it to make a version for Forgotten Battles when the time is ripe. I would like for the book to have the highest quality possible, which means that I am aiming for a well organized, well edited book with a good layout. I think that I can achieve a good layout using LaTeX, but I will probably be able to profit from the help of an editor with real experience.

Hope that my intentions are clear.

Thanks,
Mike


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michapma
01-12-2003, 06:51 PM
Hi everybody,

Just wanted to say that I've been working on a website to host the Guide. It's not finished quite yet, and the Guide is still not ready to be downloaded even in a simplified form, but the website should provide some visibility. I hope to get the website up in some form this week or next.

I plan to host the site on my server. If anybody is knowledgeable about how to go about registering domain names for a multi-page site, please let me know.

I have also begun making training tracks, since there have been a lot of requests about how to do this and that and the other. I needed over 3 hours to make my first track complete with view editing and comments, but that includes designing the mission too. It is a lot of fun at the moment, and I am learning tremendously. It took me several tries to land nicely in a LaGG-3 because I am used to flying the P-39. It's good to use a variety of planes!

If anyone would like to make or already has some instructional tracks they would like to make available for the site, please <a href="mailto:chapman@eeh.ee.ethz.ch>send them to me</a>. Please be sure to include your forum name in the mail so I know who you are.

Thanks,
Mike

&lt;script>color="#515e2f";a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor=color;</script>
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michapma
01-17-2003, 05:17 PM
Hi again everybody.

I'm bumping this thread because of the announcement of the website hosting the User's Guide: Eastern Skies (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide).

I would like for discussion about the User's Guide to stay in this thread, and discussion about the website to stay in the other thread. Bumping this thread gives it visibility to help out with that.

I hope that some of you who in this thread have mentioned interest in contributing are still willing to do that. The names of just about everybody who has shown willingness to work or encourage the project are on the site, so everybody knows who you are. If you would like for me to remove your name, just contact me. If you would like for me to add your name, just contact me.

Regards,
Mike

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Message Edited on 01/17/0308:30PM by michapma

XyZspineZyX
01-17-2003, 06:19 PM
I put myself at your disposal for later translation of the book into spanish, if you ´d like it...It´s a quite interesting project, this book...

XyZspineZyX
01-17-2003, 06:39 PM
Mike,

The Eastern Skies link doesn't seem to be working

WileyCoyote

<center> http://imagehost.auctionwatch.com/preview/wi/wileycoyote2/WileySepia.gif </center>

<marquee><font color="#00FFFF">Beep Beep, my ***! I'm on your Six, Little buddy!!!</marquee>



<marquee><font color="#FF0000">Visit my Newly Relocated Guncam Site</marquee>

<center><font color="#FF0000">Wiley'sWWIIGunCameraWorld (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/oberstguncam/Frameset/)</center>

&lt;script>var YourPicName='http://imagehost.auctionwatch.com/preview/wi/wileycoyote2/RoadRunner.gif';var a=document.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>

&lt;script>color="#000080";a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor=color</script>

michapma
01-17-2003, 08:34 PM
Oberst, you're right!

I forgot to add the // things after the http:, so it was taking the address relative to forums.ubi.com. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

The link is corrected now in the last message, and you can also follow this one (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/).

I just noticed that the website says it was put on line a year ago today... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Edit: cueceleches, Loco-S has also shown interest in making a Spanish translation, so with two the work shouldn't be too bad. I'll put you down as a co-conspirator. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Gracias,
Mike


&lt;script>color="#515e2f";a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor=color;</script>
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Message Edited on 01/17/0308:40PM by michapma

XyZspineZyX
01-17-2003, 09:19 PM
Hey can I help?(Not in translating)

XyZspineZyX
01-17-2003, 09:23 PM
Great Looking site..and i think youve got a good idea There! if youre lookin for authors..im in!
page me or sen a mail at zoomer@sunpoint.net
And lets talk more! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

--No Matter Where You go!...There you are--

XyZspineZyX
01-17-2003, 10:42 PM
Great idea and nice site to boot.Looking forward to getting my grubby hands on that Guide/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Jet Boys fly
Jet Boys gone
Jet Boy stole my baby

michapma
01-17-2003, 11:38 PM
FOXIBLITZ,
Anyone and everyone can help. Go to the site and see if there's a topic you'd like to work on. You can also add a new topic if it makes sense. When you know what you'd like to contribute, don't hesitate to write me a mail (address on the site).

LLv26_Morko,
Thanks, and of course I'm looking for authors. Check your Inbox...

Jet_Boy,
I hope you can get your paws on it soon.

Later,
Mike

PS &mdash; I just survived my first coop ever... and got two tanks. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


&lt;script>color="#515e2f";a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor=color;</script>
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XyZspineZyX
01-18-2003, 01:03 AM
SKULLS_Yanev wrote:
- NOTE
- All s's in this post has been replaced with Zs -
- otherwise I cannot post - forum says i wrote zhit
- somewhere !!!


hey this forums censored for 'naughty' words?

I consider that a challenge /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

michapma
04-10-2003, 05:50 PM
Guess what! Despite the advent of FB and my joining a squadron, I have not forgotten and have been working at bringing the Guide nearer completion. Well, let's say nearer a first rough draft. So far it is 78 pages (formatted), and a good many of the sections are incomplete or unwritten. I have broken some of the longer chapters down into shorter chapters, so there are 12 chapters in all, with a possibility of 13 (or more). One of the chapters is completely devoid of content and another is almost that way. Approximately 65 of the 65 sections currently there are incomplete, because it has to be edited and re-edited, and only about 20 of these are over 70% complete. (Can you tell I'm guesstimating?) However, this is not as bad as it might sound.

I am hoping to get the sections on ground school and flight (basics) ready for a sort of public preview. This is getting close enough now for me to taste, so I am concentrating on that. A lot of help is going to be needed to write the chapters on combat. Mikeyg007 is nearing completion of a writeup on ground attack, which will be integrated as quickly as possible (editing for style and content the main factors).

As it turns out I and a small handful of others are writing the whole thing; most who have offered to write something have fallen by the wayside. However, I have written some reminder emails so I may get a renewed interest in the coming days. It is hard because of FB coming out. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif

Special thanks to effte, Loco-S, Tully__, sgriffee and mikeyg007, who have been consistently helping with the project. Others have helped and encouraged as well, to be sure.

More to come in the following days/weeks...

Mike

&lt;script>color="#515e2f";a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor=color;</script>
&lt;script>var YourPicName='http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/images/p39n1avatar.jpg'; var a=document.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>

Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)

XyZspineZyX
04-10-2003, 08:41 PM
Not Forgotten here...still adding stuff to the manual....lots of vintage graphics and interesting RL stuff......

http://www.adlertag.de/bilder/me109g6_4.gif


11.8kb---250x92 pixels


[B]Burning Avgas at alarming rates since 1990. [B]
<G>Visit http://www.aopa.org<G>
________________________________________
[B] Author: Oleg_Maddox
Rank: Creator of IL-2 Sturmovik
Date: 03/24/03 03:09AM

We don't plan to change speed or method of trimming. Please learn this one and use.

Oleg Maddox[B]
1C:Maddox

XyZspineZyX
04-10-2003, 09:12 PM
Wow... I just found this thread now, being new here. I think this is a great idea and you guys ought to be commended for taking on such a task for the benefit of the community... Bravo! Now, I wish I could help, but I'm so new to IL-2, I'm not sure how. In fact, I resemble the perfect beneficiary of a finished project such as this, rather than a contributor.

Hey... maybe I can contribute a small something... an idea for the domain name!! Have you gotten one yet? This just came to me: http://www.IL-How-2.com or some variant of ILHow2.com et al.

Huh? Get it? How-To? Heh... *cough* well, I thought it was kinda neat >8\


michapma wrote:
- Guess what! Despite the advent of FB and my joining
- a squadron, I have not forgotten and have been
- working at bringing the Guide nearer completion.

michapma
04-11-2003, 08:12 AM
rdjh,

We are going to be needing beneficiaries. Otherwise I will feel pretty sheepish undertaking such a big project... /i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif

And there is no real reason you should have seen this thread, it has been inactive for about a month and was probably buried about 30 or 40 pages back. I started it back in October... I've bookmarked it so I don't have to go looking for it. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif

Loco-S, when you say adding stuff to the manual, do you mean written stuff or graphics and already published material?

Great news, mikeyg007 (I hope I'm getting that forum name right) sent me an advance copy of his text, promising the "final" (harhar /i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif ) version for next week. Together with a landing procedure written up by effte, this is the first written submission! That is not to overshadow the tons of material Loco-S has submitted, or the rest of the stuff that he is preparing to send...

On another front there is more great news: sgriffee has finished the design of the website and it looks fantastic. We're talking professional web design. I need to get cracking on getting him access to the relevant part of my server so he can replace my comparatively poor effort at making a presentable site. I'm gonna have to go visit him and buy that man a drink. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif

Cheers all,
Mike

&lt;script>color="#515e2f";a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor=color;</script>
&lt;script>var YourPicName='http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/images/p39n1avatar.jpg'; var a=document.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>

Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)

XyZspineZyX
04-12-2003, 10:28 PM
The Eastern Skies site looks really nice, Mike - oozes class.

I just want to back up Mike's request for contributions.
There are a LOT of people on these boards who spend a lot of their time passing on information in the boards. If lots of pople just donate a few hours of their time, we will make this sorely needed contribution to the Il2 community a reality. I don't think peopl should be shy about not being the world's biggest expert: Mike has got a good editorial process worked out and if something needs polishing up, it will be taken care of.

Mike is putting a lot of work onto this project. Everyone knows his commitment to the community from his high quality posts to the boards: he deserves your support and assistance!


Hope that qualifies me for an 'extra special thanks' in the book ;-)

XyZspineZyX
04-12-2003, 11:32 PM
Well, I could translate the whole thing into German :P

Honestly, I already translated the Complex Engine Management overview from the Mudmovers page for a german group and translated Fliegerleins gigantic FB AI Test from german into English . . . (Credentials: 11 years of school english, 1.5 years of USA/Canada living, US girlfriend who's proofreader, used to act as "liason" to US troops at field training while in the german army)

I *could* also provide a cheap domain, since I have a server and can get cheap domains (for less than 40 cents a month, which I'd be willing to shell out), IF the need is there...



Message Edited on 04/13/0312:36AM by Vortagh

XyZspineZyX
04-12-2003, 11:41 PM
Oh right, you can contact me via webmaster@imperialsquadrons.net or sysop@imperialsquadrons.net

michapma
04-22-2003, 08:41 AM
Thanks for both offers, Vortagh. It looks like the Guide (when completed /i/smilies/16x16_robot-sad.gif ) will also be available in Spanish, Russian and German. Wow. This gives me even more motivation. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif

Mike

&lt;script>color="#515e2f";a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor=color;</script>
&lt;script>var YourPicName='http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/images/p39n1avatar.jpg'; var a=document.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project</font> (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td> </td><td width="40%" align="left" valign="top">Hardware issues:
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
04-22-2003, 10:22 AM
OK man, I hereby declare that I'm available to translate the Guide into Italian.

Yours truly,


Igor

&lt;script>var
YourPicName='http://digilander.libero.it/s_flores/rainbow_flag01.jpg'; var a=document.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>

http://digilander.libero.it/s_flores/rainbow.jpg

[b]Desertum fecerunt et pacem appellaverunt

XyZspineZyX
04-22-2003, 01:57 PM
Mike,

I'm trying to think of some way I can help. Could you use some proofreaders or editors? I'm not bilingual, but I'm pretty good with English. I'm also a web & graphic developer if you need help with the site, but I think you've gotten that covered already.

- Robert

XyZspineZyX
04-22-2003, 03:33 PM
S!

I have some good news for you.

Remember that russian IL-2 manual scanned from the original
book ? http://www.airwar.ru/other/bibl/il2rle.zip

Soon you will have an english version available !
Wait just a few more days. Translation is almost done, but the text may be difficult to understand without all those illustrations contained in the original russian book.
Therefore I am going to keep all the original pictures,
graphs and illustrations, but I will simply replace the relevant russian text with english translation equivalents.

To do this, I will have to use Paint Shop Pro.
Graphic editing may take a few more days, but then we'll have a nice "authentic-looking" IL-2 early model manual. It's going to look exactly like the original manual, but completely in english ! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
04-22-2003, 04:01 PM
that's good to hear Stierlitz.

I'm still working on the LA5FN (I have to finish it this week - my wife's back from a trip after that), so as and when you start your next manual, could you start on something other than the LA5FN? ta.

michapma
04-22-2003, 05:08 PM
Guys, thanks very much for volunteering. At the moment we theoretically have an editor-in-chief, LvT. However, I haven't heard much from him recently, so I am not 100% sure about the level of his future involvement. Sgriffee is doing an excellent job with graphical web design, but if he needs a hand I guess I know where to look. When some rough drafts of the manual are released, some of you folks who are good with graphics might well think of some illustrations that help out. Wire-frame or other low-memory formats would be great.

As far as translation goes, it will be no easy task. Not just because of the length, but because I think the text will be revised and expanded quite a bit until it is fairly complete. Then there will be the FB Guide... /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_robot-surprised.gif

Mike

&lt;script>color="#515e2f";a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor=color;</script>
&lt;script>var YourPicName='http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/images/p39n1avatar.jpg'; var a=document.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project</font> (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td> </td><td width="40%" align="left" valign="top">Hardware issues:
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

michapma
04-22-2003, 05:15 PM
These aircraft manuals will be an awesome addition to the community. Make sure you let me know as soon as they are ready. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif You should also submit them at some other sites like www.mudmovers.com (http://www.mudmovers.com) and www.il2center.com/technika (http://www.il2center.com/technika).
I feel like singing. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif

Mike

&lt;script>color="#515e2f";a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor=color;</script>
&lt;script>var YourPicName='http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/images/p39n1avatar.jpg'; var a=document.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project</font> (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td> </td><td width="40%" align="left" valign="top">Hardware issues:
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
04-22-2003, 11:34 PM
michapma wrote:
-
- As far as translation goes, it will be no easy task.
- Not just because of the length, but because I think
- the text will be revised and expanded quite a bit
- until it is fairly complete. Then there will be the
- FB Guide...

Mike:

do you mean I should be doing that for a fee? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

&lt;script>var
YourPicName='http://digilander.libero.it/s_flores/rainbow_flag01.jpg'; var a=document.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>

http://digilander.libero.it/s_flores/rainbow.jpg

[b]Desertum fecerunt et pacem appellaverunt

michapma
05-08-2003, 05:07 PM
Ladies and gentlemen, there have been some updates at the Guide's website. These include a slight redesign and minor updates, but there are now some useful maps and a major update to the preview (table of contents of the Guide).

These changes are just for the transitory period until I can get sgriffee, who has made a major and awesome redesign of the site, access to my or some other capable server.

I also plan to write a short doc@ment up about engine management after the first patch comes out. This will be included in the site. Otherwise, efforts are going to be further focused on integrating contributed material and writing for the Guide.

There is also a LOT more material Loco-S has provided me with, and I have to figure out how to get it onto the web. Most of it is doc@ments and JPGs, so I have to worry about copyrights and facility of downloading (putting all those images together). Loco-S also wrote that he's whipping up a new batch of even more goodies, and has permission for us to host some of it too... including some flight manuals. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif

My squadron activity is currently the major limiting factor on the Guide's progress. So much fun, so little time! /i/smilies/16x16_robot-tongue.gif

Cheers,
Mike

PS - igor_firebird, I mean that you should feel really good about yourself when doing it. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif

New forum-filter-friendly sig without the word doc@ment.

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project</font> (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware issues:
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>


New forum-filter-friendly sig without the word doc@ment.

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project</font> (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware issues:
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

michapma
05-09-2003, 09:19 AM
Bump.

/i/smilies/16x16_robot-sad.gif

New forum-filter-friendly sig without the word doc@ment.

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project</font> (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware issues:
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

michapma
05-10-2003, 03:36 PM
Another shameless, self-serving bump.

The maps are especially useful, great for navigation and comms.

Have fun!

Mike

New forum-filter-friendly sig without the word doc@ment.

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project</font> (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware issues:
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

michapma
07-09-2003, 02:34 PM
Hello all,

I've decided to adopt a shift in approach to writing the IL-2 User's Guide. I've got a lot of stuff written but can't ever seem to finish any of the chapters. I long considered just concentrating on finsihing one chapter and releasing the chapters as they are finished. I've almost got one or two chapters complete (to an extent, not all done anyway). Since the sections are cross-referenced and often only mostly complete, this is frustrating and impractical.

As is, I plan to release an initial, unfinished version of the Guide. I think that in its current state the Guide can profit newcomers without its incompleteness being a major hindrance. As more is written and feedback leads to a batch of corrections and improvements, a new version will be released. To avoid confusion, the Guide will have to have version numbers, and at least the most current version will be available for download at the site, probably along with previous major releases. In other words, the Guide will be patched. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif

I am on vacation next week, so keep an eye out for something to be released this week.

Keep in mind that this is the "IL-2 User's Guide" and not the "IL-2: Forgotten Battles User's Guide". Most of the material applies to FB through IL-2, but things like CEM, the new planes and other features are simply not going to be in this version. That can be done, of course, but the last thing the project needs is further hold-ups.

Concerning the new web pages Simon so caringly crafted, I still don't have a way to give him access to my server, and we don't have another server set up. There was an offer but communication seemed to break down (no replies to inquiries). I guess I should send some more emails.

Regards,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 07:01 PM
Excellent idea, Mike. Hopefully the text will benefit from a hefty dose of peer review.

michapma
07-10-2003, 08:30 AM
Sierlitz, bazaah2, how are those manuals coming?

I plan to clean up some of my in-text editorial stuff and release a rough draft of the guide this week regardless. I just got a workover of the "Flight School" chapter from Loco-S, but I'll have to integrate that later. I will work to integrate as much stuff as I can (still need to work on getting mikeyg's ground attack in), but I WILL put something out in the next couple days no matter what.

I'd like to keep this thread visible until I do that, so people will be a little more aware.

Please don't think the IL-2 User's Guide is irrelevant to FB, it's not.

Cheers,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 06:29 PM
Hi all,

I'm new to FB, I've only had the sim a couple of weeks and I'm finding it a very steep learning curve. I fly with normal realism settings, but without using external views & padlock. This manual would be a huge help.

I started with the I-16 24 and after a bit of practice I could take off on the grass runway, but was still struggling with landing (it was 50-50 whether I'd touch down safely). I never figured out how to take off from a grass runway in the rain /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif But my real problem was with flooding the engine, particularly when diving; I've since learned that I should have advanced the supercharger stage at 1500m and perhaps this would have helped.

So I've switched to the Bf-109 F2, much easier /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif . Now I can take off and land OK (not tried it in rain yet) and have shot down a few planes. I struggle with B&Z tactics (I'm also struggling with all the acronyms!) as I can't see the enemy easily when I'm above him. Actually, I find it difficult to tell friend from foe - Perhaps it'd be handy to have the manual depict all the aircraft in silhouette? Anyway, I'm still pretty unsure whether I'm doing stuff right, so a manual would be a great help: take-off, landing, cruising, what to do with the radiators, mix settings etc. would all be a great help... i.e. the really basic stuff

I'm reading the thread on the Fw-190 (very informative!) and I'm beginning to wonder whether it might be best for a newbie to start with this aircraft - at least my kill rate might improve! Anyway, I hope this project really takes off /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

michapma
07-10-2003, 07:27 PM
repco, I'm glad you are looking forward to the manual. As it stands there is more information about how to fly a plane than how to fight in one. However, my next major thrust (after my vacation next week) will be to get started in earnest filling out the chapters on fighter combat. I've just started looking at Robert Shaw's Fighter Combat today, but I think I know enough to get newcomers at least started on maneuvers and tactics.

Unfortunately I get shot down more than I do the downing. Earlier this week in a squadron training dogfight session I only downed an IL-2 and got shot down several times by squadron mates. Of course, they should be shooting me down since they're far more experienced&mdash;I spent the first several months fighting almost exclusively AI, a habit I don't encourage.

I hope you will like the first, buggy edition of the guide. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif

Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2003, 07:34 PM
michapma wrote:
- Stierlitz, bazaah2, how are those manuals coming?
---------------------------------------------------

Done. A lo-o-o-ong time ago already.

I don't want to infringe any "copyright" law, therefore I need a confirmation from the original publisher in Russia
(Voenizdat) before I can make it publicly available.

Still waiting for the "OK" from the publisher.

michapma
07-10-2003, 07:43 PM
Could you send it to me anyway, and then I'll upload it if/when you get an okay. Sometimes being annoying once or twice a week helps move the process if they lose track of your request.

I appreciate your willingness to contribute.

Cheers,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 09:42 AM
michapma wrote:
- I spent the first
- several months fighting almost exclusively AI, a
- habit I don't encourage.

Thanks for the tip. My goal is to get online at some point, but right now I don't feel it'd be right to subject the rest of the squadron to my antics - a bit more practice is required. I still find the AI challenging to shoot down - though I admit they don't seem aggressive enough in attack or defence /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 11:50 AM
What can I do to help? My squad flies Bf109sand Me262s. We can provide tracks, pics, and maybe even movies so that people without a copy of FB can see what it's like. Let me know. www.jg51.com (http://www.jg51.com)

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 11:51 AM
What I ment was that is there a specefic project that you can assign to my squad? Say for example, tracks of ground attack in Lufwaffe Jabo fighters

michapma
07-11-2003, 06:27 PM
UR_Spinne, this sounds like a great contribution. Any movies can be hosted, and training tracks are especially useful. I'm a bit pressed for time at the moment, but I will try to get back to you tomorrow. If not tomorrow, then in a week because I'm gone on vacation next week.

<font siez="+1">I did it!</font>

I managed today to finallyget the guide to the point where I would consent to let myself open it for public review and criticism. Hopefully it will prove to be useful. Please, please, please keep in mind that it's not in any way finished, even the structure can change and especially the tone of the whole document needs to be checked out. I haven't heard from LvT for a while, after vacation I'll send him and email and see if he can still help.

I'm profusely sorry that I don't have credit listed everywhere. There are a lot of people who have emailed asking what they can do and I haven't been able to bug them to ask what's up and encourage them to develop the stuff they might be preparing. This is another goal that has to be reached.

The document contains complete (not finished or polished) and incomplete (including totally empty) sections. Just use your imagination. Please be sure to read the note on the first page and the Editor's Notes.

The guide is available for download. It is a 100 or so pages and 768kB. Just click on the link in my signature and find download in the menu on the Eastern Skies site.

I'm really sorry, Simon (sgriffee), that we didn't get the website you made for me up before the guide reached this stage.

Everybody please be patient waiting for a reply to any of your emails. It will take a week or so since I'll be out of touch next week.

Spread the word. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif

Cheers,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

michapma
07-21-2003, 10:11 AM
I have updated the table of contents on the website to reflect the contents of the "alpha release". I have started the numbering as version 0.1. I guess by the time the numbering gets to 1.0 it should be much closer to finished, and I will start working on adapting it for a version for FB.

Cheers,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 01:24 PM
Wow finally something useful in this forum /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I'm really looking forward to it and maybe I can also contribute.

I like to down bombers, make fighter-bomber stuff and so on. Fw-190 and IL-2 are my fav planes.

I also created a campaign for IL-2 Sturmovik.

< !-- sig -->
<HR noshade>
Our conviction is like an arrow already in flight.
Your life will only last until it reaches you.
-
The spice extends life, the spice expands consciousness. The spice is vital to space travel. Travel without moving.

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 03:36 AM
^

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_potter_anim.gif (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 11:17 AM
Hi there,

Great read, and I hope the project comes to fruition. I'm only sorry I have nothing I can really contribute!

One thought though, and I've already posted on the thread in question: There is a chap in the UK that runs a print company there who has roused great interest on the LOMAC boards in doing a printed version of the PDF that will be supplied with the sim. Pending the thumbs up from Ubi, it is likely this will happen as a result of the feedback from the community.

I've suggested in my addition to the thread that he contact you with regards to doing something similar with the completed version.

His current calculations suggest that a print run of 500 copies of the LOMAC manual, including 300 pages with a glossy front and back and a (perhaps) laminated map, would cost around $20 each including the postage and packing.

Obviously you aren't looking at quite the same number of pages in the finished article (although whilst browsing through it I though it might eventually hit the 200 page mark??), so it might be cheaper to produce.

I suggest you get in touch with the chap responsible (if he doesn't get in touch with you first!) and mull the idea over with him.

I for one would certainly purchase a professionally printed copy of what looks certain to be a cracking piece of work.

All the best, OJ

BTW, here is a link to the thread on the LOMAC boards

<A HREF="http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=lomac_gd&id=zwyus">Printing dudes thread!<A>

michapma
07-25-2003, 03:08 PM
Hi Dionysos1844,

Thanks for your comments, but I have to point out that a great deal of the knowledge in that document comes from these forums. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif Would you be interested in writing a section on attacking bombers? I hadn't planned on it but I think it would make a very nice section.

You also mention that you created a campaign. There may be a problem with the classic FMB guide (Sotka's) being made available. In that case the community will need a FMB guide. Would you be willing to work with me (and I hope some others) on that? I plan to post about it in the Mission Builder forum soon.


OJ79,

Thanks for the compliment. This is a good point and has been brought up before. I and also a few others are writing the guide basically in our free time. It's a sort of labor of love based on a good idea. If there really is a large demand for a printed version, sure I am willing to let it be done. (I can only imagine a sizeable demand for an FB version, which hasn't even been really started. Who knows what the demand will be by the time it's finished?) However, I don't want to do deal with the whole copyright mess, and I figure that having it printed would mean legal stuff and possibly giving the whole thing over to UbiSoft. As nice as a printed version sounds, it really would have to be done with a finished product and would probably have to be removed from the online interaction (clicking in the PDF file to download files or visit pages).

Obviously the fellow in the UK has to motivated to do it, too.

If it can be done without having to do much legal dealings, then when the time comes that's fine with me. I hate that this sounds so dismissive to someone who really would like to see the guide succeed. I don't mean to be, let's just say put a bookmark on that thought and we'll cross the bridge when we get to it. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif Thanks very much for offering the idea. I'm certainly willing to think more about it.

Cheers,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 09:16 AM
Mike,

in addition to the Italian translation, I could also offer a 5-line entry for the MC-202 Folgore in the "Machines" section. Let me know if that's of interest.

PS: the guide seems to be coming on nicely

http://digilander.libero.it/s_flores/cc674.jpg



Message Edited on 08/11/0310:21AM by igor_firebird

michapma
08-11-2003, 10:18 AM
Yes, please send it and I'll have a look and incorporate it into the next release. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif

Grazie,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

=69.GIAP=Chap

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

michapma
01-30-2004, 10:38 AM
Instead of productively adding to the actual content of the site, I've messed around and added a fourth style to Eastern Skies.

Warhawk fans will like it I guess. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

The link is in my sig, the link for the new style in the upper right-hand corner. Unfortunately there is seems to be a problem with my CSS programming for Mozilla, I think it has to do with playing with the z-index on CSS pop-ups. As I recall I had to mess with these to get them to work right in IE, and sometimes the class that holds the actual content doesn't make it in front of the body in Mozilla. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Sorry all you sensible browser users. If it happens to you, you should be able to get contents back by switching styles (use the icon in the status bar) and hitting reload, perhaps several times. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif Still need to work on a fix. All the IE users will happily ignore it in the bliss of not knowing I had to hack my own code for their sakes...

Cheers,
Mike

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_chap.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/) | Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com/)