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WhiteKnight77
06-12-2009, 08:20 AM
OK, as I was perusing a thread where a new guy was asking about iL2, it was said that the place was playing Coops online against other human players.

This bothers me somewhat as players as a team verses other players as a team is team vs. team gameplay. Coop is a group of players completing missions together in a campaign mode against AI.

Why the difference here?

WhiteKnight77
06-12-2009, 08:20 AM
OK, as I was perusing a thread where a new guy was asking about iL2, it was said that the place was playing Coops online against other human players.

This bothers me somewhat as players as a team verses other players as a team is team vs. team gameplay. Coop is a group of players completing missions together in a campaign mode against AI.

Why the difference here?

M_Gunz
06-12-2009, 08:26 AM
Coop is teams allowing AI. People can play on either side.

RAAF_Furball
06-12-2009, 09:35 AM
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">We often have 10 players vs 10 players in COOPs to experience the different environment to Dogfights.

</span>

Bearcat99
06-12-2009, 11:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WhiteKnight77:
OK, as I was perusing a thread where a new guy was asking about iL2, it was said that the place was playing Coops online against other human players.
This bothers me somewhat as players as a team verses other players as a team is team vs. team gameplay. Coop is a group of players completing missions together in a campaign mode against AI.
Why the difference here? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are mistaken.. a campaign is a campaign.. a sequential set of missions tied together. It can be run with all humans on one side or the other, opposing sides, or a mixture of LIVE & AI on either or both sides, but the key in campaigns is an ongoing sequentially scripted scenario.

Team play can be either coop, dogfight or campaign. What dictates team play is two or more people on opposing sides.. whether they are flying against all LIVE or a mixture of LIVE & AI is irrelevant.

In DF team missions of course it is all LIVE. Coops/Campaigns can be a mixture of LIVE & AI.. so you can have all humans on one side vs AI.. a mix of humans on both sides with or without AI.

Aviar
06-12-2009, 12:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WhiteKnight77:
OK, as I was perusing a thread where a new guy was asking about iL2, it was said that the place was playing Coops online against other human players.

This bothers me somewhat as players as a team verses other players as a team is team vs. team gameplay. Coop is a group of players completing missions together in a campaign mode against AI.

Why the difference here? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You seem to be using terminology from FPS (First Person Shooter) games.

In a flight sim, a coop is simply a single mission that is played online, with human players choosing any available flyable plane (Red or Blue). The AI will then fly the non-flyable planes and any flyable plane not taken by a human.

A particular coop mission can of course be part of an online campaign.

Aviar

rnzoli
06-12-2009, 12:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">fly the non-flyable planes </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif WhiteKnight, when it comes to terminology, bear in mind that "non-flyable" means aircraft that only has an exterior look, but no internal cockpit (gauges), therefore it is not possible to fly by a human player, only controlled by the game itself and of course, the mission builder. The planes, which are not flyable by AI are the completely non-existent planes, the Westland Whirlwind comes to my mind http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

WhiteKnight77
06-12-2009, 05:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WhiteKnight77:
OK, as I was perusing a thread where a new guy was asking about iL2, it was said that the place was playing Coops online against other human players.
This bothers me somewhat as players as a team verses other players as a team is team vs. team gameplay. Coop is a group of players completing missions together in a campaign mode against AI.
Why the difference here? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are mistaken.. a campaign is a campaign.. a sequential set of missions tied together. It can be run with all humans on one side or the other, opposing sides, or a mixture of LIVE & AI on either or both sides, but the key in campaigns is an ongoing sequentially scripted scenario. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

See below and see Aviar's response. Yes, campaigns are made up of missions to be completed by the players. Now if all players are not relegated to just bombers, what is to stop it from becoming just a dogfight type of game with each team trying to kill each other (just like TvT is in an FPS)?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Team play can be either coop, dogfight or campaign. What dictates team play is two or more people on opposing sides.. whether they are flying against all LIVE or a mixture of LIVE & AI is irrelevant. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To me, once humans play opposing each other, it ceases to be cooperative gameplay. Sure, the team can cooperate with each other if the gamers are not of the every player for themself cloth, but public servers tend to play exactly that way at least in the other games I play.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In DF team missions of course it is all LIVE. Coops/Campaigns can be a mixture of LIVE & AI.. so you can have all humans on one side vs AI.. a mix of humans on both sides with or without AI. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aviar:
You seem to be using terminology from FPS (First Person Shooter) games.

In a flight sim, a coop is simply a single mission that is played online, with human players choosing any available flyable plane (Red or Blue). The AI will then fly the non-flyable planes and any flyable plane not taken by a human.

A particular coop mission can of course be part of an online campaign.

Aviar </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I typically play FPS games though I do enjoy flight sims. I am just trying to get the gist of how humans against humans is Coop gameplay at least in relation to iL2.

Blindman-
06-12-2009, 05:34 PM
WhiteKnight, think of it this way: the coops are just as you would expect as long as there is only one side available to the players; but sometimes the Mission Builder opted to make the opposing side available for humans to fill.

Normally only one side is really playing coop, the others are there pretty much acting as individuals.

BillSwagger
06-12-2009, 05:46 PM
If you've ever played on some of the online servers, then you might recognize coop missions as being more cooperative even though the structure isn't always purely player(s) vs AI.

The terminology might not be exactly inline with what you see for other games. I think whoever plays Il2 online gets a feel for what the coop missions are, and how much they differ from "non-cooperative" servers.

x6BL_Brando
06-12-2009, 06:25 PM
If you fly in a squadron, or a flight, whatever, with a group of friends all communicating by Teamspeak - then you can experience what coops are all about. If the opposing side are also doing the same then it gets even better.

I agree that this concept can get let down by the kind of flier who just wants to rack up kills before he himself dies, but it doesn't have to be like that. There are many people who like to fly and look out for their buddies in the process - and there's no better thrill than going up against live opponents.

B

GIAP.Shura
06-13-2009, 04:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WhiteKnight77:
See below and see Aviar's response. Yes, campaigns are made up of missions to be completed by the players. Now if all players are not relegated to just bombers, what is to stop it from becoming just a dogfight type of game with each team trying to kill each other (just like TvT is in an FPS)? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No respawn in coops. Coops will generally have fixed objectives for each side.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">To me, once humans play opposing each other, it ceases to be cooperative gameplay. Sure, the team can cooperate with each other if the gamers are not of the every player for themself cloth, but public servers tend to play exactly that way at least in the other games I play. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, the quality of players has a heavy influence on whatever game you are playing but I don't see why that makes the qualification you mention. Put it this way, what if you set up a mission on a server which restricted all humans to one side/AI on the other? Surely it is the same public server players you are talking about, all out for themselves? Why is it now suddenly cooperative gameplay?

Like the others, I think it just boils down to a terminology issue. Coops is simply the term we use to refer to mission style games online (fixed start, no respawns possible) as opposed to dogfight style (non-fixed start, respawns possible). If you like you could refer to a coop as a team vs team single life fixed start match but that is a bit wordy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Coops tend to heavily favor cooperative gameplay but you are right in that what you experience will depend on your teamates. In my opinion, finding real cooperative gameplay on IL-2 outside a close knit group of friends would be very hard and I agree with Brando in that squadron vs squadron mission-based campaigns are the best way to experience IL-2 and cooperation in these circumstances is paramount.

squareusr
06-13-2009, 05:35 AM
Think of it as a technological difference:

"Dogfight" is a specialised multiplayer environment that is lacking some of the features of the offline game (air AI, moving ground units...). "Coop", on the other hand is the full offline game with added limited multiplayer capability. The limitation is that "coop" missions are locked into the "start/fly/RTB" lifecycle of offline missions, so there is no way of respawning units in an otherwise ongoing mission, be it human or AI, but it is not limited to humans on only one side.

So "coop" is named so because the other mode is unable to support "humans vs. AI" missions, not because it can only support "human vs. AI".

I think you can agree that "dogfight" and "coop" is a better way of distinguishing those modes than the alternative, but maybe a little bit more correct "non-coop" and "mission-based".

Btw, the distinction between campaign and single-mission has little to do with "dogfight" vs. "coop", people run ongoing campaigns with "dogfight" as well as with "coop" mode.

In FPS-words you could describe the modes as "quake-like" vs. "counterstrike-like".
Of course the no-respawn "counterstrike-like" mode (coop) leads to less arcade-style gameplay, but the price you have to pay for it is significant, since the average time to respawn can easily be ten times as long or longer than in, say, counter-strike.

More flexible respawn control, that would reflect more recent developments in shooter games (like the synchronised squad respawn of enemy territory) and more will only be available in the long awaited next generation flight sim from the same developer, but please don't turn this into a Bobthread.

Ritter_Cuda
06-13-2009, 03:36 PM
I for one like coops where we have players on both side . Much more of a challenge then AI against player. i With the K9's is fun because we fly with open com's . So you get to curse at or salute the guy who just shot you down. " thanks Ace I really needed that wing" (smile)

WhiteKnight77
06-13-2009, 04:02 PM
From what many of you are telling me is that between an FPS and this is it is very similar MP wise, just that with the iL2 mission editor, you can set it so there are humans to play against in Coop.

Have there ever been any Coop tournaments for iL2? They are immensely popular in Ghost Recon.

Tully__
06-13-2009, 05:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WhiteKnight77:
Have there ever been any Coop tournaments for iL2? They are immensely popular in Ghost Recon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Many squads run them either internally or against another squad who normally fly the other side of the war.

There have been several formal competitions based on Coop mode. Hyperlobby have even had specific rooms set up to cater to them, both for Dogfight and for Coop mode competitions. I'm not sure if any of the currently running formal wars are using this mode though.