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View Full Version : Which wire to catch for a good landing



Malm
12-09-2004, 10:02 AM
Hi,

Thank you for a great forum with many helpfull hints http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Spending a week practising carrier landings I start to wonder - what is a good landing? Is every landing from which the pilot can walk from a good landing or - is it evaluated from which wire is catched? I think I read something about catching the 3rd wire is graduated as perfect for realtime now a days pilots but was that the same measurement back in The Pacific War?

Baletzan
12-09-2004, 10:11 AM
Well I wouldn't say that it matters which wire you catch, if you get your bird down safely it should be enough. Altough the "coolest" way to land is by catching the last wire and stopping at 1 feet from the edge http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. If I have both wings still on after the landing it's enough for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

FRAGAL
12-09-2004, 10:11 AM
Far as i'm concerned any landings a good landing, or any wires as good as the other

Chuck_Older
12-09-2004, 10:13 AM
I may be wrong, but I beleive "catching a three wire" was the standard by which US Navy pilots were graded on their landings

Baletzan
12-09-2004, 10:18 AM
[QUOTE I may be wrong, but I beleive "catching a three wire" was the standard by which US Navy pilots were graded on their landings
[/QUOTE]

I think Chuck's right. I recall hearing somewhere that catching the third wire equals "the perfect landing"

I might be wrong tho http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

WOLFMondo
12-09-2004, 10:22 AM
I heard the same thing. I for some reason usually always catch the very first one or the very last one but anything is better than nothing!

Fennec_P
12-09-2004, 10:26 AM
I guess that since the 3 wire is in the middle, it would be the safest one to go for.

This would be the furthest possible distance from a ramp strike or a bolter.

I usually catch the 1 wire, but I also catch a facefull of stern just as often.

ucanfly
12-09-2004, 10:33 AM
Just for fun I landed the Corsair on the last wire in a really small escort carrier (one of the landing single missions) and I still went over the front and got run over by the carrier!! Those cables stretch like cartoon rubber bands - -LOL!

Billy_BigBoy
12-09-2004, 10:43 AM
Catching the third wire is something that applies to modern carriers where there are only four wires.
The third wire is indeed the safest way to land and pilots aim for that wire. The first one is very dangerous. Catching the second or the fourth is ok too, but these catches don't add many points to the rank of "best landings".
CV in WWII had more wires than the four of modern carriers.

Fliger747
12-09-2004, 11:30 AM
Something which is not medeled in the game is the use of BARRIERS. The barriers were a wire 'fence' which was controlled by an operator in the catwalk, it's purpose was to protect aircraft and personell forward fromlanding aircraft. Catching the 8 wire (on an Essex) would usually wrap your prop up in the first barrier, and an alert barrier operator could lower it quickly to avoid damage if he saw you got a good arrest. Most carriers had several barriers, usually alongside the Island.

We still have too much cable runout, and generally not enough wind over the deck to properly simulate WWII carrier ops.

MiszaNC
12-09-2004, 02:59 PM
Fliger747, sometimes we have too much of cross wind! TRy landing on carrier in the worst weather offered by the game. It is very, very nasty to strat drifting from the centerline while you just above stall speed in high AoA. However I would expect much better wind modelled on the deck.
As far as which wire to catch, I try aim for the center one however some 20% landing are on the first one which is very risky. In addition the perfect landing for me is not about which wire but sit down on "tyhree points" means all three wheels on the dack in the same moment. It is very hard with poor visibility we have.

Malm
12-09-2004, 03:40 PM
Thank you all for your enlighten information.

Never dared trying small carrier landings myself but I can visualize the problem. Those wires seems like big rubber bands to me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

--> Fliger747 : I tried to find a picture of those barriers you were talking about but I came back empty-handed. Anyone of you got some nice pictures of "catching the wire" in one of your drawers?

--> MiszaNC : all three wheels resting on the deck at the same moment? Are you kidding? If you get that right please remember to record it and I will gladly spend a few megs uploading it on my ftp and post a link here http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif When and If I catch the wire I useally jump up sky high with enough kinetic energy to do honors to the Adminal before getting pulled right down where I belong http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

badaboom.1
12-09-2004, 04:25 PM
Any undamaged pancake in the F4U is agood one!!! I don't care if its on top of the con tower!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Buckaroo12
12-09-2004, 04:30 PM
What's all this about wire's now???? I always thought you were supposed to touch down and eject before you rolled off the edge!!!

Malm
12-09-2004, 07:01 PM
Yes sorry Buckaroo12 - thats totally another ballgame which has been discussed in another thread see here:

http://www.flynow-work-later.com/images/image_1.jpg

Fliger747
12-09-2004, 07:29 PM
The barrier wires are about the same diameter as the arresting wires, there are two of them attached to raiseable stancions, one about 2' off of the deck, and the top one about four feet or so. There were several of these, placed where the midships wires are located in the game, just aft of the deck edge elevator. I have some photos but will have to dig them out.

The ship to launch and recover planes needs to steam directly into the wind, so it SHOULD always be right down the deck. The only real (minor) change to this some ships prefered to kep the wind several degrees off the port bow to allow the pilots a better view of the LSO (coming to the cut in a slip) and keep smoke and turbulence from the island at a minimum.

Fliger747
12-09-2004, 07:45 PM
Not a great photo, but the Wildcat lost it's tail and is about to catch one of the barriers (raised wires above the deck)

From US Carrieres at Warhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/fliger747/barrierscve.jpg

dwruddock
12-09-2004, 07:48 PM
heck out this article I found, it will clarify some of the misunderstandings about modern carriers. Still looking for info on older carriers.


Navy uses Palms to rate pilot carrier landings
BY TONY LEE ORR | GCN STAFF

Aboard the USS constellation€"Some Navy landing signal officers are using handheld technology to ease the task of grading pilots€ abilities, but others have yet to get a grip on the idea. During pilot qualification testing late last month, the signal officers returned to paper€"trusty spiral notebooks€"as they hurried to keep up with scoring and making notes on pilots who were landing on the aircraft carrier every 60 seconds.


Navy Lt. Mike Biemiller, a landing signal officer for Sea Control Squadron (VS)-38, records a landing evaluation on his Palm.
The landing officers had to score the landings of more than 60 pilots by 3 p.m. Jan. 23, and another 60 more of the jet jockeys€ night landings shortly before midnight.

€œI don€t think [the Palms] will ever be quick enough for this type of qualification,€ one landing officer yelled above the noise of an incoming jet. It takes longer to wade through the Palm€s dropdown menus than it does to scribble the information into the notebook, he said of the Navy-approved process developed by two pilots.

Only a few evaluators have access to Palms and are simply not familiar enough with the process to be speedy, the landing officer said. €œWhen you are only doing 11 planes, it works fine,€ he said.

Pilots must requalify for taking off and landing on carriers when they return to ships after shore duty, said Lt. Charlie Brown, a Navy spokesman. The number of landings needed to requalify depends on how long it has been since the pilot last flew on a carrier.

The landing officers grade and critique the pilots during the requalification as jets traveling in excess of 100 mph snag one of three wires strung across the carrier deck and come to a screeching halt. An excellent pilot is never too high, always centered and consistently hits the second wire, evaluators said.

Lt. Ken Schneider, who wrote the Palm program along with Naval Academy chum Lt. Mike Lapaglia, said speed using the Palm comes with familiarity.

x__CRASH__x
12-09-2004, 09:19 PM
OMG! I work with Mike "SPAZ" Lapaglia! He left S-3's when they shut them down and came to my squadron! He was on my crew in the Persian Gulf, that just got back in the beginning of November. He just put on O-4 too! lol! This is a trip to read! I just called him and told him I saw this.

btw, the highest grade a pilot can receive is an "OK 3 Wire" But I believe they are taking away the 4th wire, but that shouldn't change the grading criteria. It just adds an extra chance for a bolter.

flemsha
12-09-2004, 09:46 PM
Forgive my ignorance but wouldn't taking away a wire be a pointless excersise? Is there any benefit to be gained?

MiszaNC
12-09-2004, 09:57 PM
To Malm,
I record almost all my landing for future learning so if you like can send you some good and "not very good at all" ones http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
One more thing, learning how to land take only 25% of fuel it makes the plane much lighter, and easier to fly, esp. in a slow speed on final.

x__CRASH__x
12-09-2004, 10:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flemsha:
Forgive my ignorance but wouldn't taking away a wire be a pointless excersise? Is there any benefit to be gained? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My thoughts exatcly. I'm not familiar with the "why". I'll see if I can find it.

x__CRASH__x
12-09-2004, 10:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flemsha:
Forgive my ignorance but wouldn't taking away a wire be a pointless excersise? Is there any benefit to be gained? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My thoughts exatcly. I'm not familiar with the "why". I'll see if I can find it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Innovations with the carrier's arresting gear will also make it unique. Ronald Reagan will operate with three arresting wires instead of four. The ship actually has four wires; however, only three are in operation at any one time. The new threewire arresting gear design can withstand more aircraft landings than the old design due to stronger wire sheaves.

According to the carrier's Catapult and Arresting Gear Maintenance Officer, LT Charles Huntington, "Having one arresting wire down helps reduce the impact due to maintenance time. We can work on one arresting wire machinery while the other three wires are safely recovering aircraft."

"This new design will reduce our maintenance requirements by half, by increasing the time interval between inspections and overhauls, and will also reduce costs"

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0IBQ/is_2002_Feb/ai_84926838

Fliger747
12-09-2004, 10:12 PM
The full meal deal on wires and barriers on an (original) Essex:

Deck layout of Intrepid, showing wires and barriers:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/fliger747/Intrepiddecklayout.jpg


Detail of arresting gear and barrier:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/fliger747/barierdetails.jpg

huggy87
12-09-2004, 10:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flemsha:
Forgive my ignorance but wouldn't taking away a wire be a pointless excersise? Is there any benefit to be gained? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My thoughts exatcly. I'm not familiar with the "why". I'll see if I can find it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
__Innovations with the carrier's arresting gear will also make it unique. Ronald Reagan will operate with three arresting wires instead of four. The ship actually has four wires; however, only three are in operation at any one time. The new threewire arresting gear design can withstand more aircraft landings than the old design due to stronger wire sheaves.

According to the carrier's Catapult and Arresting Gear Maintenance Officer, LT Charles Huntington, "Having one arresting wire down helps reduce the impact due to maintenance time. We can work on one arresting wire machinery while the other three wires are safely recovering aircraft."

"This new design will reduce our maintenance requirements by half, by increasing the time interval between inspections and overhauls, and will also reduce costs"__

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0IBQ/

is_2002_Feb/ai_84926838 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Uh oh. Now I am worried. A P-3 guy is talking carrier ops. You know, we don't get per diem on those things. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Huggy

x__CRASH__x
12-09-2004, 10:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by huggy87:
Uh oh. Now I am worried. A P-3 guy is talking carrier ops. You know, we don't get per diem on those things. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Huggy <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I used to be a flight deck troubleshooter on Hawkeyes before I got my flight orders. So I did some boat time as an E-3/E-4, and do have a grasp of how good I have it now. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Old_Canuck
12-09-2004, 11:29 PM
Don't know about RL but I find that any wire between and including the first and last will do just fine.

Malm
12-10-2004, 12:26 PM
Hi there - me again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

--> MiszaNC: Great thanks for your offer. I will send you my ftp details if you will be so kind uploading a few tracks of your landings http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

--> x__CRASH__x: Thanks for the link to www.findarticles.com (http://www.findarticles.com) - could come handy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

--> Fliger747: Thanks for providing the nice drawings and your great photo of the barrier in function.

--> dwruddock: Also great thanks for the info about palms which I find very interesting since I used to be working with software for these gizmo s. I do not think we are talking about these eletronic devices them suits are using for remembering their wife birthday but more like a bigger version on the size of a very old Cellular phone. I think my old company tried to implement a solution for a large storage place. It went all bad since those workers got very big hands and they too needs to do their work in a very fast matter http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

Have been working with software for Enterprice Resource Planning through a decade this is not new to me. First somebody developed a new gizmo then Microsoft sees a profit and develop a new programming language. Some programmers in another company find it a very exciting toy and soon followed by sales department who wonder which one of their custormers they could lured into buying one. The last one to be informed about this big leap into technology wonders are actually those whom are going to work with it. It is always put upside down http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

To the rest of you thank you very much for contributing to this debate. I find your inputs very enlighting.

Best regards
Henrik Malmvig