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View Full Version : How Many think the P-38 Lightning is undermodeled? (Poll)



20thFG-PirAnha
01-17-2005, 05:25 PM

faustnik
01-17-2005, 05:54 PM
Piranha,

Make you questions more specific please. It's hard to claim that the P-38 has received a genertic "porking". What part of the FM or DM do you have a problem with?

20thFG-PirAnha
01-17-2005, 05:55 PM
By Horribly undermodelled, i Mean climb rate, and gun platform. The gun platform is so,shaky. it's not stable platform like it has said to have been in ww2.

faustnik
01-17-2005, 05:57 PM
I'm would think the P-38 would be an excellent gunnery platform because of its heavy, solid construction.

The P-38 climbs very well in PF 3.03, I'm not sure where you are coming from there?

WWMaxGunz
01-17-2005, 07:09 PM
Last I messed with it, it shuddered in oncoming stalls and turning too hard.
Also you've got to climb with high speed don'tcha?

I can mistreat any plane and get bad results. P-38 was hard to fly right, I read,
and just like P-39 that's probably because of pilots who treated either one the
way they would a P-40 or similar.

Why else are some people reporting not to have the problems a lot of others are?

Except for the dives and oncome of elevator heaviness... and that seems to be true
of some other planes as well. Probably something deeper than the individual plane
models so I will be happier if the fix isn't by changing one plane at a time in ways
that make other quirks the very next time the overall FM gets upgraded.

VF-29_Sandman
01-17-2005, 07:32 PM
lockheed's recommended speed for best rate of climb after takeoff was 180mph indicated. the L model likes to try to stall pulling into a turn just a bit too easy, and supposedly, this model had higher hp engines.
the most serious modelling problem is that both model's go into compression at too low of speed at any alt. right now, the closest thing to actual p-38 flight is that 109-z ufo that never saw action. that plane will not stall in either turn like the 38 will and this is definately wrong. the 38's engines are counter-rotating. both engine in the 109-z turn in the same direction, but has no torque.
to try to dive in the 38 like the 109-z, u'll revert to passenger status with no hope of pulling out.

TX-Zen
01-17-2005, 07:33 PM
I think the stiffened elevator problem is abnormally high in game compared to what I understand about the real thing. My impression is that compressibility set in during dives from high altitude as the 38 reached high speeds, what we have in game is simply concrete elevators in any kind of high speed dive regardless of altitude. At least a part of the stiff elevators was due to thin air up high and washout from the wings creating some form of turbulence over the elevators, but this problem didn't manifest itself in high speed dives down in the thicker air of lower altitudes. (correct me if I'm wrong here, going from memory alone)

I'm not the expert, but the game representation seems somewhat contrived and feels as though its a deliberate FM tweak rather than a consequence of the game engine. I understand that no physics engine will ever be perfect and so true compressibility probably can't be accurately modelled, but what happens to the 38 right now seems a bit overdone because its happens consistently when higher speeds are reached regardless of altitude or dive angle and at probably too low of a speed on top of that.


As for the gun platform stability, yes the 38 shakes considerably when firing but at the same time I find it the most accurate and lethal 50 cal gun platform in the game. Way better at head on shooting than any other allied type imho...so while the shake sometimes foils deflection shots, its dead on at other times, in particular low angle off shooting like head on or dead 6. I can't say whether this is realistic either, but parts of it feel contrary to real life accounts and others seem accurate.


On the whole I can't say the plane is porked...perhaps reasonably accurate but on the lower side of optimal FM modelling instead of on the generous side that some other aircraft get...but with a big helping of overdone compressibility.

ZG77_Nagual
01-17-2005, 07:35 PM
Maybe a tad under in turn, and a tad over in compression. But she's very workable and certainly not 'horribly' anything.

VF-29_Sandman
01-17-2005, 07:46 PM
when the 38 first came out in game, omg was it porked

BaldieJr
01-17-2005, 07:52 PM
I can't fly it.

I do like the dual .50 gunpods though. Converge your weapons way out into next week and go for head-ons. You'll be a hero in no time at all.

AFJ_Locust
01-17-2005, 09:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TX-Zen:
On the whole I can't say the plane is porked...perhaps reasonably accurate but on the lower side of optimal FM modelling instead of on the generous side that some other aircraft get...but with a big helping of overdone compressibility.
. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fully agreed on that

BSS_CUDA
01-17-2005, 10:29 PM
My personal feeling on the 38 it has 2 flaws, and I fly it almost exclusivly. 1 is the high speed compressability down low. it is wrong, shouldnt happen, also the 50's are still **** with the ROF of the 4 50's it should act like a chain saw and rip off wings, but this is not a FM problem but the way all 50's are, I can go on GG and rack up 1000 point without breaking a sweat, flying spits, hurricanes, and LA's, but on WC where its all allied planes its almost impossible to get consistant kills flying the US aircraft, maybe its just better pilots in WC, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif that didnt used to be the case, but it seems to me that any US plane you have to seriously work to get kills, I find this strange after watching lots of guncam footage from WW2 and seeing those same 50's literally saw planes and trains in half. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif someone mentioned in another thread that the late 38's had a 1700+ HP with WEP http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif that would rock, and as for the turn rate, in GG they have a 38 VS 109K map I can easily out fly the K in a 38, or even a 190 in any other map, I do a good job of holding my own against the earlier 109's provided I dont make a mistake, with a Wing against the early 109's it will be a tough matchup for the 109, but my only FM gripe is the compressability. would like that 1700+ HP tho http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif


EDIT: I need spell checker sometimes, either that or I need some sleep http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

GR142-Pipper
01-18-2005, 12:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 20thFG-PirAnha:
By Horribly undermodelled, i Mean climb rate, and gun platform. The gun platform is so,shaky. it's not stable platform like it has said to have been in ww2. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> As currently modeled, the P-38 has pathetic rates of acceleration, unstable gun platform as you correctly cite, control compression at airspeeds well below when it actually occurred. Basically, the plane is half a notch above useless. The blues love it the way it is, of course, because it's an easy kill. Just my take.

GR142-Pipper

GR142_Astro
01-18-2005, 12:51 AM
Couldn't agree more Zen, well put.

I've no problem with the P38s turn ability, speed or climb.

1 - Low alt fake compressibility

2 - Gunshake

Those are the problems, and they really hamper the P38 from being used to full effect.

GR142-Pipper
01-18-2005, 12:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 20thFG-PirAnha:
By Horribly undermodelled, i Mean climb rate, and gun platform. The gun platform is so,shaky. it's not stable platform like it has said to have been in ww2. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> As currently modeled, the P-38 has pathetic rates of acceleration, unstable gun platform as you correctly cite, control compression at airspeeds well below when it actually occurred. Basically, the plane is half a notch above useless (IMHO, of course).

Zen's comments were pretty much on but (as currently modeled) I'd give the P-38's flight model a C-.

GR142-Pipper[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

WOLFMondo
01-18-2005, 12:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 20thFG-PirAnha:
By Horribly undermodelled, i Mean climb rate, and gun platform. The gun platform is so,shaky. it's not stable platform like it has said to have been in ww2. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> As currently modeled, the P-38 has pathetic rates of acceleration, unstable gun platform as you correctly cite, control compression at airspeeds well below when it actually occurred. Basically, the plane is half a notch above useless. The blues love it the way it is, of course, because it's an easy kill. Just my take.

GR142-Pipper <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

its not useless, maybe some of you guys simply cannot fly it. acceleration is good, climb is excellent, good enough to use as an escape from lw planes, the shake is the pilots head, not the plane, its got sniper accuracy and used with a wing man its unbeatable. its roll above 400kph is pretty good, enough to jink your way out of a confrontation with a 109. compression can be upto 650kph can be combated with trim. above that airbrakes work well and using prop pitch to control your dive speed also works well.

p38's are only easy kills when there lone wolfs and there trying to turn fight with 109's. attack with energy and conserve it and use a wingman (like they were really flown) and its a good plane. check out some of the allied fighter jocks sqaud on wc, they now how to use them to great effect.

GR142_Astro
01-18-2005, 01:05 AM
Sure you can exploit the trim, but I will say it again:

1 - Low alt fake compressibility

2 - Gunshake

Those are the problems, and they really hamper the P38 from being used to full effect.

WOLFMondo
01-18-2005, 01:21 AM
The gunshake doesn't affect your aim though, it just wobbles the pilots head and your view point. The plane itself never changes direction unless you tell it too.

VVS-Manuc
01-18-2005, 03:25 AM
I wish they could stop this "oh no I am shot down again so my plane must be horrible undermodelled and has to be fixed at once " - threads

RogueSnake79
01-18-2005, 04:24 AM
If you fly a plane enough, you gona find things that you think are not correctly modeled. Expecally if the plane is a USAF aircraft.

I have flow the P-38 on many a mission, and I do think the gun platform + uncontrolable dives are a bit strange. Other than that I have no problems.

Just needs some fine tuning, deadly in the right hands with, or without changes.

But I never flew the real thing.

One thing I think everyone should list when repling in a thead about a planes FM is what plane they fly most.

I only fly USA aircraft period.

VF-29_Sandman
01-18-2005, 06:59 AM
wether ur in a 38 or a corsair, all american birds require compentant wingmanship. and 9 out of 10 that go into df servers are pitifully inept at this. instead of actually flying as a team, they: lone-wolf, commit friendly fire..both shooting and causing mid-air collisions. and when everything else just dont go their way, they use the poorest excuse for 'teamwork'...deliberately goin after some1 else's kill when it's obvious that target aint goin anywhere but down.

the bss had the art of teamwork down to a science back in the days of cfs2, and it isnt takin them long to refine it in fb. they will be a dangerous threat if there are more than 1 of bss in any server period.

ZG77_Nagual
01-18-2005, 08:03 AM
With the original 38L online I used to make a point of engaging ki84s. It was a blast and I certainly gave as good as I got - particularly 1v1. Now I prefer to fly the 'J'. The guns are phenomenal - but require marksmanship. They fire a relatively tight pattern but easily destroy most planes with just a tap on the trigger -less than a second normally. Personally I think it's got the second best guns in the simm - first being the beaufighter.

BSS_CUDA
01-18-2005, 08:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VF-29_Sandman:
wether ur in a 38 or a corsair, all american birds require compentant wingmanship. and 9 out of 10 that go into df servers are pitifully inept at this. instead of actually flying as a team, they: lone-wolf, commit friendly fire..both shooting and causing mid-air collisions. and when everything else just dont go their way, they use the poorest excuse for 'teamwork'...deliberately goin after some1 else's kill when it's obvious that target aint goin anywhere but down.

the bss had the art of teamwork down to a science back in the days of cfs2, and it isnt takin them long to refine it in fb. they will be a dangerous threat if there are more than 1 of bss in any server period. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thx for the good word Sandy. went into GG last night had a flight of 6 38's against 6 109k's we had the alt advantage by about 500 ft, cleaned their clocks, one of us took a minor hit and was leaking fuel, other than that we all RTB'd. the plane is deadly with good team work, it is a decent turn fighter and BnZ plane, again my only gripe is the low alt compression

WOLFMondo
01-18-2005, 08:26 AM
I really like those gun pods on the L. If you can get a good wing man on comms who can drag people about while you line up there exceptional at one pass kills with the 20mm thrown in.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RogueSnake79:

One thing I think everyone should list when repling in a thead about a planes FM is what plane they fly most.

I only fly USA aircraft period. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe but that just outlines a narrow perspective on things. You can be more objective if you spread yourself out and fly both sides equally as muchhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. You get to give and recieve (oh er missus) on both sides with different planes so these silly arguments about under or overmodelling appear in a different light. And the best way to defeat your enemy is to learn how they fight first hand.

KGr.HH-Sunburst
01-18-2005, 08:40 AM
i find the P38 pretty well modelled IMO although it could be boosted in a few area's

its not as nimble like a P51 or spit but it can hold its own against any LW plane when flown properly and the fire power and zoom climb is very good which makes it a good BnZ plane.
And the J can dominate in any 1943 server because of its climb and speed IMO

What most people forget when flying the P38 is that they make a BIG target for heavely armed LW planes ,the P38 is a big plane which makes it easy to shoot down.

VF-29_Sandman
01-18-2005, 08:50 AM
hey cuda...methinks if u were to get falcon into a 38 the way it is now, i see the 'return of the midway terror'. few could survive a head on with him. no doubt.

BAG.LordDante
01-18-2005, 08:53 AM
i think that the p38 can take quite a beating from dead 6 or at least it takes a lot of ammo to get it smoking, and because of its speed it´s not so easy to get down.
Ah and never ever engage it head on!

ZG77_Nagual
01-18-2005, 09:32 AM
I mostly fly the p38 and 190a <8 or dora. Also the P39 and the beaufighter. I love the corsair but it's too popular.

VF-29_Sandman
01-18-2005, 10:03 AM
probably the most famous bird in the pto was the corsair, then the 38. but not much is said about the hellcats like the 2 above. but the corsair doesnt suffer tail compression nearly as bad as the lightning does; their wings just break off instead.

Vipez-
01-18-2005, 10:14 AM
the shaking is indeed very wierd..

Hmm anyone have facts concerning P-38L roll rate ? It should have boosted ailerons, giving impressive roll rate at high speeds, but it doesn't seem to have boosted in the game... any ideas if we have a non boosted P-38L in the game ?

Weather_Man
01-18-2005, 10:17 AM
For me, it is the hardest plane in FB to fly. I refuse to fly it ever again in df room.

PBNA-Boosher
01-18-2005, 10:26 AM
I feel it's fine the way it is. I'm able to get kills with it, it's plenty fast, and if you use the .50's and the 20mm separately you get very good results. Try energy fighting rather than BnZ. The key of the P-38 when fighting one on one is to extend away at least 4000 km before you turn for another pass.

Capt.LoneRanger
01-18-2005, 10:32 AM
The P38 is an excellent fighter. It's a problem, that the engine doesn't allow to modell the engines correctly (The props working in opposite directions support roll-rate, climb-rate and stall-behavior)

But still, the plane is good, the way it is.

What strikes me most, is the fact that most people take the shaky view as inaccuracity of the guns, but that isn't true. There's no plane in the game that has such a narrow kill-zone over long ranges.

IMHO the P38 is just another example for quite different tactics and maneuvers for different planes. As you cannot fly a Hurricane and a FW190D the same way, you cannot fly the P39 like any other plane in the game.

Aaron_GT
01-18-2005, 03:10 PM
BSS_CUDA wrote:
" also the 50's are still **** with the ROF of the 4 50's it should act like a chain saw and rip off wings"

People keep saying this, but I seem to be able to rip wings off and I am a lousy pilot and lousy shot. Sure, it's not every time that you rip a wing off, but I am sure that this wasn't the case in WW2 either. If you get in close in a BnZ pass in the P38 the firepower is pretty devastating. It also seems to be a pretty stable gun platform (the headshake seems to be for the pilot - it doesn't seem to affect the guns).

The only serious flaws are the torque (which is low on all planes anyway, and is a game engine limitation) and the compression issue. Everything else seems close enough to me, and it works well if you keep it fast (but below that dubious compression limit).

joeap
01-18-2005, 03:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VVS-Manuc:
I wish they could stop this "oh no I am shot down again so my plane must be horrible undermodelled and has to be fixed at once " - threads <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Yes.

FluffyDucks
01-18-2005, 05:54 PM
Interesting how the the same sad sacks put in their "my US uberplane won't fly uber", comments, and it is OBVIOUS that the problem is not the aircraft but the PILOT.
The P38 is bloody uber in any online server IF FLOWN RIGHT. You sad gits that try to engage in low level turn fights WILL get owned. Please repeat: The P-38 is an ENERGY fighter (like most US aircraft). that means if you try to dogfight you are dead meat. So all you dozy ****s that are trying to turnfight Zeros and 109s ....deserve all you get. Now go back to your undermodelled Corsairs, your whining has finally got your fake FM back.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

ST__Spyke
01-18-2005, 07:37 PM
the only thing wrong with the P-38 in this game is that the standard texture of the P-38L is horrible http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

for the planes size the roll-rate/acceleration is fine. It had the same engines as early P-40s in a plane twice the size. People only think that the .50cals are weak because they are comparing them to the Mk108 cannon. There is a big difference between explosive tip cannon dammage and machine gun dammage. And do dammage tests between P-40 and the P-38; the P-38 has awsome firepower. I would have to say the P-38 is one of the most surviveable planes in the game to top it at that.

The spin characteristics may be slightly odd when thinking about the counter-rotating props, but truth is that all planes spin like that when they stall and conditions are right. The 262s do it, 727s, F-18s, MIG-29s, P-51s, Hellcats, and P-38s will spin...

Blackdog5555
01-18-2005, 07:57 PM
Its not bad but a couple of problems. The real P38J LO25 had a new thing called 'fowler flaps" I thinkd i spelled that right. And actually it was one of the only planes that could out turn a Zero at high(er) speed using the new flaps in combat position. In the game you can get good turn rate (P38)only if you engage the "combat Flaps" plus the dive brakes. You shouldnt get improved turn radius with dive brakes. Fowler flaps arent there. And compressibility starts a little early @400mph. P-38 was the hot rod of American planes accellerating at @2.5mph/sec.

WUAF_Badsight
01-18-2005, 09:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
You can be more objective if you spread yourself out and fly both sides equally as much. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
oh the cheek of you

who wants or cares about objective forum posters

what do we want ? a better plane

when do we want it ? now

seriously , you keep up being objective , & youll only get the Allied and the axis lovers abusing you

theres no middle ground in the fight to pork planes you like to shoot up !

WTE_Galway
01-18-2005, 09:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VF-29_Sandman:
probably the most famous bird in the pto was the corsair, then the 38. but not much is said about the hellcats like the 2 above. but the corsair doesnt suffer tail compression nearly as bad as the lightning does; their wings just break off instead. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Depends .. the P38 certianly is well known for got more kills than any other plane in the pacific theatre .. the F4U has the big advantage of teh flamboyant Boyington and the 70's TV show based around his exploits.

BlakJakOfSpades
01-18-2005, 09:15 PM
Now maybe i've come down with patch fever, but i was flyin with piranha tonight in a coop with 38's and they seemed to kick some serious LW butt. As i first lined up on a 109 going verticle i was waiting for my plane to stall out any second, when it didn't and i lined up a shot, i nailed him no problem, seemed way easier than before. I think the 38's are a far more lethal killing machine than pre 3.04. Piranha I'm sure will attest to this, he got 4 kills hehe. Anywho, if it stays like this, i'll be happy.

BaldieJr
01-18-2005, 09:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
You can be more objective if you spread yourself out and fly both sides equally as much. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
oh the _cheek_ of you

who wants or cares about objective forum posters

what do we want ? a better plane

when do we want it ? now

seriously , you keep up being objective , & youll only get the Allied _and_ the axis lovers abusing you

theres no middle ground in the fight to pork planes you like to shoot up ! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh great, objective-poster whining.

Yuo = a trole!!1

woofiedog
01-18-2005, 11:21 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif With a bit of practice... the Lightening is Very Much a Killer in the Air and for Ground Pounding.
With a concentraded Nose Array of Cannon and Heavy Machine Gun fire... most aircraft start shedding Pieces-Parts Fast.

WOLFMondo
01-19-2005, 02:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
You can be more objective if you spread yourself out and fly both sides equally as much. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
oh the _cheek_ of you

who wants or cares about objective forum posters

what do we want ? a better plane

when do we want it ? now

seriously , you keep up being objective , & youll only get the Allied _and_ the axis lovers abusing you

theres no middle ground in the fight to pork planes you like to shoot up ! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Bring 'em on!