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alert_1
09-05-2005, 03:37 AM
Just return from my little web trip and googgled out:
_______________________________________________
Span: 10.80 meters
Length: 9.95 meters
Height: 3.95 meters
Wing surface: 20.10 sq m.
Wing load: 171 kg/sq m
Weight empty: 2 460 kg
Weight loaded: 3 435 kg

Propulsion
Power (total): 1 800 HP
Specific power: 524 HP / tonne
Maximum speed: 587 kph
Initial climb: 1170 m/min.
Service ceiling: 11 700 meters
Range: 1 898 km
1 Mitsubishi MK4R-A 'Kasei 23A' engine (1 800 HP)

Designed by the same team as the Zero, it epitomized the reverse philosophy: the
manoeuvrability was sacrificed to performances. The plane was outstandingly stable, while
armament, speed and firepower put it on top of the fighters of the Imperial Navy.
Manoeuvrability on the other hand, especially at higher speed, was bad. Furthermore, the
plane suffered during its whole career of numerous accidents and a glaring lack of
reliability.
________________________________________________

So, maneuvrability was sacrificed to speed, yet handling at high speed was poor, Raiden had 1800hp engine but was able to reach only 587 km/h.
Am I alone who can wait to saddle that IJN wonder ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

tigertalon
09-05-2005, 04:03 AM
I am looking forward to try it out as well. Rate of climb, good dive, excellent stall and recovery, good high alt performance IMO will make it a dangerous opponent for american fighters of the day. It will probably be an excellent bomber destroyer. However, plane will be hampered by slow speed (compared to contemporary american fighters).

Somebody sometime back proposed to have a server with only P47 v J2M3 as flyable. Then we would really find out who deserves the name. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JG53Frankyboy
09-05-2005, 04:06 AM
i think it will be slaughtered on the typical online dogfightservers.

-poor rearview,
-very low ammo load (6o rounds per gun, and i doubt the canon pairs will be fired seperatly with trigger one&two http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif )
-slow (in comparison to its foes)
-no the best turner
-not the best climber
-we have to wait the Vnever it will get.


sure , it will be nice to habe something differnt to fly for the IJNAF - but it will be no "überplane" ...

Badsight.
09-05-2005, 04:23 AM
the plane is useless in the AI's hands

they let loose all 6 seconds of firing time straight away on first contact & then they are just flying points

so far with it AI only its DM isnt a patch on the Hayate

we wont have to put up with its RL running problems , but its not going to be a wonder-plane

that 587 Kmh top speed surely must be @ SL

tigertalon
09-05-2005, 04:40 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
-not the best climber


Well, specification for J2M3 Model21:

Initial climb rate 3838 feet per minute. An altitude of 9840 feet could be reached in 2.95 minutes. An altitude of 19,685 feet could be reached in 5.85 minutes.

IMO it will be capable of outclimbing most of its opponents, at least down low that is.


Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
sure , it will be nice to habe something differnt to fly for the IJNAF - but it will be no "überplane" ...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

JG53Frankyboy
09-05-2005, 04:42 AM
587km/h TAS at sealevel, yes please http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

no, the 587km/h is TAS at 5300m

F19_Ob
09-05-2005, 05:19 AM
It's fast and with four 20mm cannons. That spells success in all theatres.

The corsair was a crappy fighter until it got the four cannons.

Even a supercrappy fighter like the hurricane got an individual kill boost when the 2c came.
The 2c is more than twice as lethal with the cannons since one shell might do the job.

So cannons and speed is what does it.
Imagine a 109 or fw190 with 4 or 6 mg's only.
Their killratio would drop horribly.

What I think http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

JG53Frankyboy
09-05-2005, 05:23 AM
F4U-1c 240rpg
HurricaneMk.IIc 90rpg
Bf109 with MG151 200rpg

J2M3 60rpg http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

F19_Ob
09-05-2005, 05:37 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
F4U-1c 240rpg
HurricaneMk.IIc 90rpg
Bf109 with MG151 200rpg

J2M3 60rpg http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Dont worry. One usually fires many single burst than continuous fire. Every pull of the trigger is 4 cannonshells, wich should be enough for most occasions. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

One13
09-05-2005, 05:42 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
F4U-1c 240rpg
HurricaneMk.IIc 90rpg
Bf109 with MG151 200rpg

J2M3 60rpg http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Where do you get the figure of 60rpg?
Evey source I have looked at says 200rpg for the 20mm. Some say 190, 200 or 210.
550rpg for the 7,7mm found in the J2M1 & J2M2

JG53Frankyboy
09-05-2005, 05:55 AM
Originally posted by One13:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
F4U-1c 240rpg
HurricaneMk.IIc 90rpg
Bf109 with MG151 200rpg

J2M3 60rpg http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Where do you get the figure of 60rpg?
Evey source I have looked at says 200rpg for the 20mm. Some say 190, 200 or 210. 550rpg for the 7,7mm. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well , i used the datas from the game:
http://free-st.htnet.hr/dvd/ammo_AI.html

if they have more ammo, well, good, email oleg about your sources.

the J2M3 had no light machine guns in the cowling anymore btw.

it had 2 Typ99 Mark 1
and 2 Typ99 Mark 2 canons.
the first used drum magazines - same weapon like the A6M2 - so 60 rounds.

the second , i dont know the version number , but if its a Model 3 its also drum-fed - like the A6M5 in game, with propably 100rounds.....

nakamura_kenji
09-05-2005, 05:55 AM
j2m3 4x20mm and no machine gun early version machinegun j2m1 probably

Friendly_flyer
09-05-2005, 06:02 AM
Sooo, this will be like a fast Hurricane IIc with sluggish controls? It might be a nice plane!

JG53Frankyboy
09-05-2005, 06:05 AM
this gives realy a much higher ammount of ammo

http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/specs/mitsubis/j2m3.htm

question is how reliable is this "source" ?

KIMURA
09-05-2005, 06:30 AM
Type 99 Mark I Model 4 and
Type 99 Mark II Model 4:
IIRC is model 4 on both Marks of cannons belt-fed, and if so not bound on drum mag capacity.

tigertalon
09-05-2005, 06:38 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
this gives realy a much higher ammount of ammo

http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/specs/mitsubis/j2m3.htm

question is how reliable is this "source" ?

American Intelligence Identification Card of the Raiden from December 1944 states:
Armament:
4x20mm 100rpg or
2x7.7mm 550rpg + 2x20mm 100rpg

I will post scan of a document as soon as I scan it.

KIMURA
09-05-2005, 06:52 AM
Armament: Two 20-mm Type 99 Model 1 cannon and two 20-mm Type 99 Model 2 cannon with 200 rpg. Underwing loads of two 66-lb or two 132-lb bombs could be carried. Alternatively, one 44-Imp gall drop tank could be carried on the centerline.

Sources via Joe Baugher:
War Planes of the Second World War, Fighters, Volume 3, William Green, 1964.
Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War, Rene Francillon, Naval Institute Press, 1979.
The Asiatic Thunderbolt, Air Enthusiast, June 1971.

Also the Chino Model 21 shows ports of 2xType 99 Mk.II(inner guns) and 2xType99 Mk.I(short barrel - outer guns) I'll post some better close ups, soon.
http://airpower.callihan.cc/images/ww2axis/Raiden/02-PoF-Raiden-10.jpg

One13
09-06-2005, 11:03 AM
Does anyone have any good reliable data about the J2M3, or know where to find it?

fordfan25
09-06-2005, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by alert_1:
Just return from my little web trip and googgled out:
_______________________________________________
Span: 10.80 meters
Length: 9.95 meters
Height: 3.95 meters
Wing surface: 20.10 sq m.
Wing load: 171 kg/sq m
Weight empty: 2 460 kg
Weight loaded: 3 435 kg

Propulsion
Power (total): 1 800 HP
Specific power: 524 HP / tonne
Maximum speed: 587 kph
Initial climb: 1170 m/min.
Service ceiling: 11 700 meters
Range: 1 898 km
1 Mitsubishi MK4R-A 'Kasei 23A' engine (1 800 HP)

Designed by the same team as the Zero, it epitomized the reverse philosophy: the
manoeuvrability was sacrificed to performances. The plane was outstandingly stable, while
armament, speed and firepower put it on top of the fighters of the Imperial Navy.
Manoeuvrability on the other hand, especially at higher speed, was bad. Furthermore, the
plane suffered during its whole career of numerous accidents and a glaring lack of
reliability.
________________________________________________

So, maneuvrability was sacrificed to speed, yet handling at high speed was poor, Raiden had 1800hp engine but was able to reach only 587 km/h.
Am I alone who can wait to saddle that IJN wonder ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif


i have no dout that it out class the USA fighters in dive speed DM turn rate and fire power http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif . so fans of the j2m3 should fear not youll now have two ubers to fly it and every pto's ride the ki84


it will be nice to have something other than a ki84 b/c out diveing my jug then looping over me catching back up and killing me with 3 hit's http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Kuna15
09-06-2005, 11:32 AM
I think KI-84 will still be No_1 IJA/IJN fighter ride.

Brotrob
09-06-2005, 12:50 PM
Good evening,

has anyone an explanation why so many japanese designs suffered from really slow speeds despite being powered by very powerfull engines? The Raiden is not the only one, look at the George! All of em have Radials with 1800 to 2000 Ps, but none of them reaches even 600 km/h at altitude. Compare this to the 190, La, Jug or Tempest II, they all reached very high speeds despite their radials. I think I heared somewhere that the japanese had huge problems with an aerodynamically clean connection between fuselage and wing. Does anyone have more information, who is an expert on japanese planes?

Regards,

Brotrob

harryklein66
09-06-2005, 02:26 PM
I have a question for you : do you think the hellcat with his 2000hp engine, only reach 611 km/h due to a not aerodynamically clean connection between fuselage and wing ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/harryklein/J2M_01.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/harryklein/J2M_02.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/harryklein/J2M_03.jpg
from GAKKEN N?29

LeadSpitter_
09-06-2005, 03:05 PM
im guessing it will be similiar to the i185 ufo. Despite its rl performance charts.

tigertalon
09-06-2005, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by tigertalon:
American Intelligence Identification Card of the Raiden from December 1944 states:
Armament:
4x20mm 100rpg or
2x7.7mm 550rpg + 2x20mm 100rpg

I will post scan of a document as soon as I scan it.


So here it is, on harryklein's scans, very same one I promised to post. Ty harry.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/J2M_ammoload.jpg

Still dunno how reliable this source on ammoload is - it is still american document from late 44...

tigertalon
09-06-2005, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
im guessing it will be similiar to the i185 ufo. Despite its rl performance charts.

For sure it looks like it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

At least it will CLIMB, so americans will get another K4 nightmare, this time japanese one. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

nakamura_kenji
09-06-2005, 03:34 PM
i guess we not allow have a good plane that threat to american v_v

the j2m3 design be bomber interceptor so high climb rate was what design for

JG53Frankyboy
09-06-2005, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
im guessing it will be similiar to the i185 ufo. Despite its rl performance charts.

oh yes, as same as the Ki61 and Ki100 are horrible UFOs wich can shoot down US heavy metall faster than a klingon Bird of Prey.

look out for another game..... !

JG53Frankyboy
09-06-2005, 03:38 PM
btw m these charts are talking about a J2M2 Model11.

but at least it is giving two armament possibilities:
2 canons , 2 guns
ore
4 canons (but not sure if they ment 2 in wings , two in fusalage ? )


we will get a J2M3 Model21

Hoarmurath
09-06-2005, 03:42 PM
if you want to have some insight about what to expect, why not have a look at il2compare?

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/6963/j2m3il2comp2ny.jpg

this was for 3.02, of course...

JG53Frankyboy
09-06-2005, 03:44 PM
407 miles per hour (~650km/h) ?!?!?!!?!?!?!?

ups, **** fast in that chart !

ICDP
09-06-2005, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by Brotrob:
Good evening,

has anyone an explanation why so many japanese designs suffered from really slow speeds despite being powered by very powerfull engines? The Raiden is not the only one, look at the George! All of em have Radials with 1800 to 2000 Ps, but none of them reaches even 600 km/h at altitude. Compare this to the 190, La, Jug or Tempest II, they all reached very high speeds despite their radials. I think I heared somewhere that the japanese had huge problems with an aerodynamically clean connection between fuselage and wing. Does anyone have more information, who is an expert on japanese planes?

Regards,

Brotrob

The figures seen in most publications are quoting max continuous cruise or speeds using only military power. It often confused me as to why such light airframes with such powerful engines were getting such low speeds.

The Jack is a perfect example of these unrealistic figures. Why should an aircraft weighing 7,080lb with an engine developing 1940HP under WEP only reach 587kph. It simply isn't logical, the figures just don't add up!

If we take a similar radial engined aircraft such as the Fw190A3: 1700HP, 8,770lb, 673kph top speed.

As we can see there is no logical reason that the Fw190A3 with less HP and higher weight should have a 86kph higher top speed. Even allowing for less drag and different wing design it still would account for such a major difference.

If we do get the Jack modelled to full rating we will no doubt see the whiners complain that the Jack is 40mph to fast.

Hoarmurath
09-06-2005, 04:01 PM
you can get il2compare from airwarfare :

http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/FB/fb_essential_files.htm#018

too bad the last version was for 3.02 PF, and there is no plans to have an updated one.

But it is still a very useful tool to know what to expect from planes in the game, and compare their performances...

harryklein66
09-06-2005, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by harryklein66:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
407 miles per hour (~650km/h) ?!?!?!!?!?!?!?

ups, **** fast in that chart !

Indeed, for the model 21 an other american
source dated from July 1945, give 417 mph (667 km/h ) @ 16,600' !! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But as Tigertalon said, it's hard to know how
reliable those sources are. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Waldo.Pepper
09-06-2005, 04:57 PM
It will fly like a brick.

fordfan25
09-06-2005, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by nakamura_kenji:
i guess we not allow have a good plane that threat to american v_v

the j2m3 design be bomber interceptor so high climb rate was what design for


no you have them its us who dont get to have planes that match real life data http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

nakamura_kenji
09-06-2005, 06:17 PM
i not fly american so cant talk about how perform if they do get change it just mean need make new tactic like had to p-38L late and will prob have p-47 late. just make combat more fun ^_^

i notice something funny also ki-61, A6m and ki-43 gun have synced tracer so american not only one, not hear me complain ^_^

i real look forward raiden though prob not fly much but it be nice change of tactic ^_^

JG53Frankyboy
09-06-2005, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by fordfan25:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nakamura_kenji:
i guess we not allow have a good plane that threat to american v_v

the j2m3 design be bomber interceptor so high climb rate was what design for


no you have them its us who dont get to have planes that match real life data http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hopefully the whole axis planeset is soon so UFO like and superiour to the US planes that the whole US plane community is uninstalling this game - GO OLEG GO ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

fordfan25
09-06-2005, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fordfan25:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nakamura_kenji:
i guess we not allow have a good plane that threat to american v_v

the j2m3 design be bomber interceptor so high climb rate was what design for


no you have them its us who dont get to have planes that match real life data http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hopefully the whole axis planeset is soon so UFO like and superiour to the US planes that the whole US plane community is uninstalling this game - GO OLEG GO ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

and then when 1c is not selling enough softwear to fund all these nice patch's and IL2 or more likely BoB goes the way of MCFS youll be cryn why is flight sim such a small market WAAAAAAAA. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif but in the mean time you guys can go on creating your fantasy version of ww2 with out us U.S flyers reminding you of how things realy were http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

JG53Frankyboy
09-06-2005, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by fordfan25:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fordfan25:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nakamura_kenji:
i guess we not allow have a good plane that threat to american v_v

the j2m3 design be bomber interceptor so high climb rate was what design for


no you have them its us who dont get to have planes that match real life data http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hopefully the whole axis planeset is soon so UFO like and superiour to the US planes that the whole US plane community is uninstalling this game - GO OLEG GO ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

and then when 1c is not selling enough softwear to fund all these nice patch's and IL2 or more likely BoB goes the way of MCFS youll be cryn why is flight sim such a small market WAAAAAAAA. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif but in the mean time you guys can go on creating your fantasy version of ww2 with out us U.S flyers reminding you of how things realy were http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

there will be few to sell till BoB release - and BoB has no US planes in the first release....................

im one of the first community members that is going with "as real as possible" - just the way some members here , blue and red, are bringing all time the same and again and again and again i topics where it has nothing to ad is more than anoying since PF was released...

both sides have their fantasies how "their" planes should behave , espacially than on fantasie servers like Warclouds and friends (nothing personal agaisnt the folks who keep them running ! they are doing a bloody good job with lot of work. ).

and this has nothing to do with the real outcome of WW2 !

Daiichidoku
09-06-2005, 08:00 PM
it should be able to hold its own when flown according to its programming...

just as its US counterpart, a good bnzr...even shares having a huge cockpit!

the top speed shortcoming IS offset by the wonderful climb....

i just hope the DM isnt r a p e d like the ki61 is, as also the case with the "Instaflame"tm ki84

fordfan25
09-06-2005, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
it should be able to hold its own when flown according to its programming...

just as its US counterpart, a good bnzr...even shares having a huge cockpit!

the top speed shortcoming IS offset by the wonderful climb....

i just hope the DM isnt r a p e d like the ki61 is, as also the case with the "Instaflame"tm ki84


you want to make those ki84s seem stronger? start flyn the p47,f4u or hellcat. then youll know what a R A P E D dm feels like http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif and then read up on how much tougher those planes were IRL as aposed to just about any other plane especialy japo planes that will make the R A P E I N G feel even worse. then notice how you cant out manuver any thing,out climb,out dive any thing and how less effective those .50s are over those instakill cannons. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ElAurens
09-06-2005, 09:58 PM
And once again an informative post is derailed by nationalistc ferver.

Always remember these two things:

1. There was no "One Best" aircraft produced, ever.

2. Francillon was mostly guessing about Japanese aircraft performance.

Be sure.

Badsight.
09-07-2005, 12:06 AM
whats the matter Ford_Fan

only threads that are US plane support group discussions allowed here ?

have you ever once thought about how allied western propaganda might not be 100% correct ?

LeadSpitter_
09-07-2005, 02:53 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
btw m these charts are talking about a J2M2 Model11.

but at least it is giving two armament possibilities:
2 canons , 2 guns
ore
4 canons (but not sure if they ment 2 in wings , two in fusalage ? )


we will get a J2M3 Model21

I actually think the ki100 ki84 and ki67 are undermodeled same with the ki43a b c mgs as well as the zekes 20mms, same with the corsair and hellcats accelaration, high speed manuverability, dive speeds and breakup speeds which where thier only advantages.


whats funny is try the ki67 vs the 109g6, then try the corsair and hellcat vs the 190a4 a5.

Planes very similiar in sustained turn, roll, climb, dive accelaration breakup speed etc. But in game its such a huge difference, ki84 should be the top plane in game.

Dtools4fools
09-07-2005, 08:42 AM
Posted Tue September 06 2005 20:14

quote:
Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
it should be able to hold its own when flown according to its programming...

just as its US counterpart, a good bnzr...even shares having a huge cockpit!

the top speed shortcoming IS offset by the wonderful climb....

i just hope the DM isnt r a p e d like the ki61 is, as also the case with the "Instaflame"tm ki84



you want to make those ki84s seem stronger? start flyn the p47,f4u or hellcat. then youll know what a R A P E D dm feels like Too Happy and then read up on how much tougher those planes were IRL as aposed to just about any other plane especialy japo planes that will make the R A P E I N G feel even worse. then notice how you cant out manuver any thing,out climb,out dive any thing and how less effective those .50s are over those instakill cannons. Big Grin


It's intersting to see how some people try to turn each topic into "all American planes are undermodelled and all axis planes are overmodelled".
The ultimate crusade.
****

SithSpeeder
09-07-2005, 09:25 AM
Oleg_Maddox wrote:
N1K2-Ja I would think that the new "George" is gonna really pump some added life into the Japanese side (assuming that it is flyable). In February 1945, a brave pilot, Warrant Officer Muto, single-handedly engaged 12 Hellcats and shot down four of them before the remainder disengaged.

From another site:
One Nakajima NK9H Homare 21 eighteen-cylinder air-cooled radial rated at 1990 hp for takeoff, 1825 hp at 5740 feet, 1625 hp at 20,015 feet. Performance: Maximum speed 369 mph at 19,355 feet, 359 mph at 9840 feet. Cruising speed 230 mph at 9845 feet, service ceiling 35,300 feet cruising speed 230 mph at 6600 feet. Climb to 19,685 feet in 7 minutes 22 seconds. Normal range 1066 miles at 219 mph at 9840 feet, maximum range 1488 miles with 88 Imp. gall. drop tank.

Weights: 5858 pounds empty, 8818 pounds loaded, 10,714 pounds maximum loaded.

Dimensions: wingspan 39 feet 4 7/16 inches, length 30 feet 7 29/32 inches, height 12 feet 11 29/32 inches, wing area 252.95 square feet.

Armament: Four 20-mm Type 99 Model 2 cannon in the wings. Two 551-pound bombs or one 88 Imp. gall. drop tank could be carried externally.

* _54th_Speeder *

nakamura_kenji
09-07-2005, 09:35 AM
both shiden, raiden, hayate and hien all wonderful designs that suffer badly from reliabilty problem. but all aircraft il-2 are model on what there performance was without reliabilty problem it should not suprising that japanese plane perform better than people believe should v_v. also need rember many late war japanese pilot were rookie with little experience

even with all nice plane like raiden and shiden kai migth get flyable i rather have ki-44 and ki-43-II, though i take what can get ^_^

Daiichidoku
09-07-2005, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by fordfan25:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
it should be able to hold its own when flown according to its programming...

just as its US counterpart, a good bnzr...even shares having a huge cockpit!

the top speed shortcoming IS offset by the wonderful climb....

i just hope the DM isnt r a p e d like the ki61 is, as also the case with the "Instaflame"tm ki84


you want to make those ki84s seem stronger? start flyn the p47,f4u or hellcat. then youll know what a R A P E D dm feels like http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif and then read up on how much tougher those planes were IRL as aposed to just about any other plane especialy japo planes that will make the R A P E I N G feel even worse. then notice how you cant out manuver any thing,out climb,out dive any thing and how less effective those .50s are over those instakill cannons. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i DO know...the JUG is one of my main rides...and its DM is just fine, btw...its the R2800 instastop engine thats the problem in regards the DM

why, fordfan, do u assume that cuz i commented on the bad DM on many JP types that i dont know about other problems with other types?


go away and come back when your mind is a little more open, please

Hoarmurath
09-07-2005, 01:17 PM
The addition of Raiden and shidden fighters will make playing IJN careers much more interesting.

fordfan25
09-07-2005, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
whats the matter Ford_Fan

only threads that are US plane support group discussions allowed here ?

have you ever once thought about how allied western propaganda might not be 100% correct ?


"only threads that are US plane support group discussions allowed here ?" ...... o absalutly.


"have you ever once thought about how allied western propaganda might not be 100% correct ?"
....... channaling oleg now are we.

yes. im sure some may be wrong but not the thiungs i mentuned. far to many history books as well as piolet accounts. have you ever thought that all 100% is NOT propaganda but may be truth http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. but at any rate i was just jokeing around any way. i know them poor blue players have it so rough http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

fordfan25
09-07-2005, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by Dtools4fools:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Posted Tue September 06 2005 20:14

quote:
Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
it should be able to hold its own when flown according to its programming...

just as its US counterpart, a good bnzr...even shares having a huge cockpit!

the top speed shortcoming IS offset by the wonderful climb....

i just hope the DM isnt r a p e d like the ki61 is, as also the case with the "Instaflame"tm ki84



you want to make those ki84s seem stronger? start flyn the p47,f4u or hellcat. then youll know what a R A P E D dm feels like Too Happy and then read up on how much tougher those planes were IRL as aposed to just about any other plane especialy japo planes that will make the R A P E I N G feel even worse. then notice how you cant out manuver any thing,out climb,out dive any thing and how less effective those .50s are over those instakill cannons. Big Grin


It's intersting to see how some people try to turn each topic into "all American planes are undermodelled and all axis planes are overmodelled".
The ultimate crusade.
**** </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


i didnt turn each topic into a "all American planes are undermodelled and all axis planes are overmodelled".
The ultimate crusade......just this one http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

fordfan25
09-07-2005, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fordfan25:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
it should be able to hold its own when flown according to its programming...

just as its US counterpart, a good bnzr...even shares having a huge cockpit!

the top speed shortcoming IS offset by the wonderful climb....

i just hope the DM isnt r a p e d like the ki61 is, as also the case with the "Instaflame"tm ki84


you want to make those ki84s seem stronger? start flyn the p47,f4u or hellcat. then youll know what a R A P E D dm feels like http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif and then read up on how much tougher those planes were IRL as aposed to just about any other plane especialy japo planes that will make the R A P E I N G feel even worse. then notice how you cant out manuver any thing,out climb,out dive any thing and how less effective those .50s are over those instakill cannons. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i DO know...the JUG is one of my main rides...and its DM is just fine, btw...its the R2800 instastop engine thats the problem in regards the DM

why, fordfan, do u assume that cuz i commented on the bad DM on many JP types that i dont know about other problems with other types?


go away and come back when your mind is a little more open, please </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


"and its DM is just fine, btw"....NO its not btw. its pathatic. *IMO* from every thing iv read...o but thats right every piolet account and every shread of evadence is propaganda. see i keep forgeting that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

"R2800 instastop engine" realy thay do... Na propaganda says badsight http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif j/k

"why, fordfan, do u assume that cuz i commented on the bad DM on many JP types that i dont know about other problems with other types?" ... yea thats just what i assumed. in fact i now assume its a fact that you eat pizza every 4th tusday and drink grape juice 5 min befor bed every other night.

"go away and come back when your mind is a little more open, please" I could say the same to you. but i wont. i wont because .....secritly i think i may be in http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif with you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif


the DM is FUBAR on alot of the planes but i just think that thay are way more so on the US side.NOT because those are the planes i like but going by what if see,heard,read. the p-47 should not be out turning 109's or ki84's BUT it should have a fairly large gap in its favor as to the ammount of damge it can sustain.some people "not you of course seem to think thay built it that big and heavey just for the bad MPG LOL " i strongly "but nicely" disagree with any one that says eather it does take alot more to bring down in this game or that IRL it did not injoy this addvantge.

now maby the DM on the ki84 is to weak how ever it is IMO that when compaired to the DM of the 3 US radials wich were know to be sturdy to say the least its DM is overmoddled. now let me say again. im not saying its DM IS overmoddled BUT when compaired to the DM of the above mentuned planes it may as well be.

my first post was realy ment more as humor than any thing else. if something is off with any plane in the game then i my self would want it fixed. like the DM on the FW or the prop pitch on the 109 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif j/k ----see more fordly humor.

harryklein66
09-07-2005, 01:55 PM
@Tigertalon

I've found this on the ammoload.
They give the same number in Maru (N?4 ) too.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/harryklein/J2M_04.jpg

so it look to be 190 and 210 rpg, for the model 21.

tigertalon
09-07-2005, 02:58 PM
Ty, harryklein66, nice find http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif!

Like Frankyboy said, documents on previous page are for model 11 (J2M2), looks like that one had only 100 rpg - nevertheless its a bit confusing, because it states also 4 20mm as an option on J2M2 - such a plane was never built IIRC.

Well, if we are gonna get so many shells - yummy, can't wait to BnZ some hellcats and lightnings with it!

flockzap
09-07-2005, 02:59 PM
http://gunpoint-3d.com/model-Raiden.html

It only costs 25$ http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Flockzap

JG53Frankyboy
09-07-2005, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by harryklein66:
@Tigertalon

I've found this on the ammoload.
They give the same number in Maru (N?4 ) too.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/harryklein/J2M_04.jpg

so it look to be 190 and 210 rpg, for the model 21.

that looks serious !
you should email this to maddox games.

NorrisMcWhirter
09-07-2005, 03:59 PM
This will be an interesting aircraft to fly what with the speed and firepower. It will probably be vilified within microseconds of appearing on servers, however (especially if it's actually any good - like the sustained whine campaign against the Ki84).

I think maybe Oleg should do two builds of release from now on; one for a particular market and the other for the rest of the world. Maybe then we'd have some peace and quiet http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

LeadSpitter_
09-07-2005, 06:04 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

fordfan25
09-07-2005, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
This will be an interesting aircraft to fly what with the speed and firepower. It will probably be vilified within microseconds of appearing on servers, however (especially if it's actually any good - like the sustained whine campaign against the Ki84).

I think maybe Oleg should do two builds of release from now on; one for a particular market and the other for the rest of the world. Maybe then we'd have some peace and quiet http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris


yea that way the "particular" market would get to fly something thats atleast close to real life and the rest of the world can keep up there little fantasy world were the only reson thay lost a war was do to swamp gas reflecting of mars http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif.

Badsight.
09-07-2005, 10:47 PM
theres swamp gas in your fantasy world ?

i can think of a lot of things id want in my fantasy world , swamp gas isnt one of them . . . . .

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2005, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by Hoarmurath:
The addition of Raiden and shidden fighters will make playing IJN careers much more interesting.

Agreed,currently you have to alter the flyable plane list to include the A6M7_62/63 & even then you get a Zero that looks like an A6M5C ok if your a Zero fanatic, Im not

fordfan25
09-08-2005, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
theres swamp gas in your fantasy world ?

i can think of a lot of things id want in my fantasy world , swamp gas isnt one of them . . . . . http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Friendly_flyer
09-08-2005, 05:27 AM
Originally posted by nakamura_kenji:
both shiden, raiden, hayate and hien all wonderful designs that suffer badly from reliabilty problem. but all aircraft il-2 are model on what there performance was without reliabilty problem it should not suprising that japanese plane perform better than people believe should v_v.

I think nakamura_kenji hit the nail on the head here. I look forward to trying this thing out in it's intended role: Hunting B-29s. I€m not much of an B&Zer myself, so for dogfighting I don't expect much from it. Anyway, why don't we wait until we can actually try it out before staring to whine?

fordfan25
09-08-2005, 10:06 AM
agreed.

NorrisMcWhirter
09-08-2005, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by fordfan25:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
This will be an interesting aircraft to fly what with the speed and firepower. It will probably be vilified within microseconds of appearing on servers, however (especially if it's actually any good - like the sustained whine campaign against the Ki84).

I think maybe Oleg should do two builds of release from now on; one for a particular market and the other for the rest of the world. Maybe then we'd have some peace and quiet http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris


yea that way the "particular" market would get to fly something thats atleast close to real life and the rest of the world can keep up there little fantasy world were the only reson thay lost a war was do to swamp gas reflecting of mars http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are quite entitled to your opinion http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

Oleg_Maddox
01-31-2006, 06:54 AM
Originally posted by alert_1:
Just return from my little web trip and googgled out:
_______________________________________________
Span: 10.80 meters
Length: 9.95 meters
Height: 3.95 meters
Wing surface: 20.10 sq m.
Wing load: 171 kg/sq m
Weight empty: 2 460 kg
Weight loaded: 3 435 kg

Propulsion
Power (total): 1 800 HP
Specific power: 524 HP / tonne
Maximum speed: 587 kph
Initial climb: 1170 m/min.
Service ceiling: 11 700 meters
Range: 1 898 km
1 Mitsubishi MK4R-A 'Kasei 23A' engine (1 800 HP)

Designed by the same team as the Zero, it epitomized the reverse philosophy: the
manoeuvrability was sacrificed to performances. The plane was outstandingly stable, while
armament, speed and firepower put it on top of the fighters of the Imperial Navy.
Manoeuvrability on the other hand, especially at higher speed, was bad. Furthermore, the
plane suffered during its whole career of numerous accidents and a glaring lack of
reliability.
________________________________________________

So, maneuvrability was sacrificed to speed, yet handling at high speed was poor, Raiden had 1800hp engine but was able to reach only 587 km/h.
Am I alone who can wait to saddle that IJN wonder ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

I would say that by behavior in air its like Japanese I-185

BigganD
01-31-2006, 07:34 AM
Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alert_1:
Just return from my little web trip and googgled out:
_______________________________________________
Span: 10.80 meters
Length: 9.95 meters
Height: 3.95 meters
Wing surface: 20.10 sq m.
Wing load: 171 kg/sq m
Weight empty: 2 460 kg
Weight loaded: 3 435 kg

Propulsion
Power (total): 1 800 HP
Specific power: 524 HP / tonne
Maximum speed: 587 kph
Initial climb: 1170 m/min.
Service ceiling: 11 700 meters
Range: 1 898 km
1 Mitsubishi MK4R-A 'Kasei 23A' engine (1 800 HP)

Designed by the same team as the Zero, it epitomized the reverse philosophy: the
manoeuvrability was sacrificed to performances. The plane was outstandingly stable, while
armament, speed and firepower put it on top of the fighters of the Imperial Navy.
Manoeuvrability on the other hand, especially at higher speed, was bad. Furthermore, the
plane suffered during its whole career of numerous accidents and a glaring lack of
reliability.
________________________________________________

So, maneuvrability was sacrificed to speed, yet handling at high speed was poor, Raiden had 1800hp engine but was able to reach only 587 km/h.
Am I alone who can wait to saddle that IJN wonder ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

I would say that by behavior in air its like Japanese I-185 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
OMG! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

jds1978
01-31-2006, 07:52 AM
i think we just got a clue as to what to expect from the new IJA fighter http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

alert_1
01-31-2006, 07:56 AM
Posted 31 Jan 2006 14:54
quote:
Originally posted by alert_1:
Just return from my little web trip and googgled out:
_______________________________________________
Span: 10.80 meters
Length: 9.95 meters
Height: 3.95 meters
Wing surface: 20.10 sq m.
Wing load: 171 kg/sq m
Weight empty: 2 460 kg
Weight loaded: 3 435 kg

Propulsion
Power (total): 1 800 HP
Specific power: 524 HP / tonne
Maximum speed: 587 kph
Initial climb: 1170 m/min.
Service ceiling: 11 700 meters
Range: 1 898 km
1 Mitsubishi MK4R-A 'Kasei 23A' engine (1 800 HP)

Designed by the same team as the Zero, it epitomized the reverse philosophy: the
manoeuvrability was sacrificed to performances. The plane was outstandingly stable, while
armament, speed and firepower put it on top of the fighters of the Imperial Navy.
Manoeuvrability on the other hand, especially at higher speed, was bad. Furthermore, the
plane suffered during its whole career of numerous accidents and a glaring lack of
reliability.
________________________________________________

So, maneuvrability was sacrificed to speed, yet handling at high speed was poor, Raiden had 1800hp engine but was able to reach only 587 km/h.
Am I alone who can wait to saddle that IJN wonder ?


I would say that by behavior

I would say that by behavior in air its like Japanese I-185

Like I185/M82 or like I185/M71?
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Tooz_69GIAP
01-31-2006, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:
I would say that by behavior in air its like Japanese I-185

Sweet!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif But which I-185 I wonder? The fast one or the slow one?

JtD
01-31-2006, 09:09 AM
J2M3 was slow. Not by Japanese standards, but by normal 1942 standards.

Bearcat99
01-31-2006, 09:32 AM
http://www.kotfsc.com/aviation/graphics/j2m3-plate1.jpg (http://www.kotfsc.com/aviation/raiden.htm)

Interesting.... for some reason i thoiught this plane was a bomber....

BTW... this (http://www.kotfsc.com/) is a pretty interesting site.

crazyivan1970
01-31-2006, 10:01 AM
It`s kind of like ugly looking Frank with no Ammo http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Philipscdrw
01-31-2006, 10:24 AM
It's like someone took a fighter and squashed it longitudial... longitutall... along its longitutinal axis.

RocketDog
01-31-2006, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by SithSpeeder:
Oleg_Maddox wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">N1K2-Ja I would think that the new "George" is gonna really pump some added life into the Japanese side (***uming that it is flyable). In February 1945, a brave pilot, Warrant Officer Muto, single-handedly engaged 12 Hellcats and shot down four of them before the remainder disengaged.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I asked over at SimHQ.com and SaSQoN has indeed done a cockpit for a flyable George, although unfortunately it is going to be AI only in this patch. Apparently the flyable version will be in a payware add-on, I guess with things like the Fokker XXI.

SaQSoN did the cockpits for the Ki-84 and Ki-61, so it should be well worth waiting for, and along with the Raiden and Ki-84, Ki-100 and Ki-61 should make for some very interesting late-war scenarios.

Incidentally, the story about the lone George vs a dozen Hellcats has been shown to be a myth originating in contemporary Japanese propaganda. No such US losses are recorded and it's not mentioned in Japanese military records.

Cheers,

RocketDog.

p1ngu666
01-31-2006, 10:53 AM
the japanease planes probably have even less performance ingame than they did irl..

eg zero cant outrun hellcat, but it could irl without problem...

Airmail109
01-31-2006, 10:57 AM
well they wont be able to catch my mossie sooooo...........i have nothing to worry

berg417448
01-31-2006, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
the japanease planes probably have even less performance ingame than they did irl..

eg zero cant outrun hellcat, but it could irl without problem...

you meant Wildcat didn't you?

anarchy52
01-31-2006, 02:09 PM
I think maybe Oleg should do two builds of release from now on; one for a particular market and the other for the rest of the world. Maybe then we'd have some peace and quiet http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Exactly, we need US build of FB, BoB, whatever with John Wayne waving Stars & Stripes on the box cover and another build for the rest of the world (if there is anything outside the USA of course). Then we would have some peace from loud clueless indoctrinated ultrapatriots.

berg417448
01-31-2006, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by anarchy52:
[


Exactly, we need US build of FB, BoB, whatever with John Wayne waving Stars & Stripes on the box cover and another build for the rest of the world (if there is anything outside the USA of course). Then we would have some peace from loud clueless indoctrinated ultrapatriots.



Nice way to paint with a broad brush and stereotype. There are "clueless indoctrinated ultrapatriot" types on all sides on this board but they don't represent the majority.

anarchy52
01-31-2006, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by berg417448:
Nice way to paint with a broad brush and stereotype. There are "clueless indoctrinated ultrapatriot" types on all sides on this board but they don't represent the majority.

Yes, stupidity knows no borders.
However, currently one side has the lead. And it would be covered by stars & stripes edition.

VW-IceFire
01-31-2006, 03:20 PM
Looking forward to seeing what the J2M3 can do. Its more like a Western styled fighter with higher wing loading and emphasis on speed and climb rate. Although they never quite worked out the bugs and they only built small numbers...it was supposedly a very decent aircraft when it was operating properly.

I think it'll be fun...plus it gives the Japanese stable a little extra in the way of options. At the moment only the Ki-100 and the Ki-84 really have a chance in late war scenarios. In the mid war scenarios things are more even and in early war its slightly in their favour depending on combat tactics employed.

p1ngu666
01-31-2006, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by berg417448:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
the japanease planes probably have even less performance ingame than they did irl..

eg zero cant outrun hellcat, but it could irl without problem...

you meant Wildcat didn't you? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yep, typo http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

DIRTY-MAC
01-31-2006, 04:40 PM
I remember reading about some american pilots who tested captured aircrafts, that thought it was the best of all the fighters Japan had!?
anyone?

and what is its powerloading compared to other similar aircrafts, the topspeed sharts for this aircraft often seems very weir for a aircraft with that much horsepower and a laminarflow wing?

Sintubin
01-31-2006, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
whats the matter Ford_Fan

only threads that are US plane support group discussions allowed here ?

have you ever once thought about how allied western propaganda might not be 100% correct ?

your the man http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

JadehawkII
01-31-2006, 07:42 PM
Nice to see some intrest in the J2M3 (and J2M5 as AI). http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Makes me feel better knowing all my hard work making the template and skins will pay off well for everyone.
Having spent many hours while doing the template of this plane, I can tell you it has a beauty all on it's own. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif I also feel is one of the misunderstood Japanese designs and you can only appreciate it's capabilities once you get to know it well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I bet you will see some campaigns and/or missions provided or made that will enable you to take off and climb up and after the B-29 raids like they truly did back in WWII. That's something you have not seen for the Pacific Fighters game yet and should provide many hours of enjoyment (or frustration from the other point of view!). http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif
Keep in mind this plane was NOT designed to be carrier capable! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
Strickly a land based interceptor, but knowing some of you adventurous types out there, I bet some are gonna try taking off and landing on them Japanese carriers! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
And why not? It's a game for crying out loud! Have fun! It's what the game is all about in the begining. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/Onyxwing2004USA/J2M3_Raiden_25.jpg

Stigler_9_JG52
01-31-2006, 07:57 PM
As always, it's all about context.

If you cram dogfight servers with Jacks, you'll hear all this "this isn't right...!" howling because, no, that's not what they were used for.

They were used to intercept B-29 raids over the home islands. The J2M is a high-altitude interceptor.

Down low, they're not too bad, either...but again, that's not what their role really was.

So, you can put 'em up against cannon-Corsairs and "pretend" you're simulating something... but you're just wanking at that point. Secret weapons of the Imperial Japanese... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Tooz_69GIAP
01-31-2006, 08:19 PM
In more than two years of reading these forums, Stigler, I don't think I've read one single positive pro-FB post by you!! Why do you even come in here?? Is it just to bemoan everyone who even gets the smallest satisfaction from playing this game? Or are you just a miserable git?

J_Anonymous
01-31-2006, 10:49 PM
I am pretty sure I once read an article(s) in Japanese magazine about IJN fighter pilots stationed in Atsugi base (south of Tokyo) intercepting USN planes with J2 Raiden and/or Zero. But I could be wrong (many years ago....) The truth is, toward the end of the war, there were not many well-serviced, flyable planes left. The article was about a couple of experienced, die-hard IJN ace pilots. They jumped on whatever aircrafts avaialble when over 1000 planes were incoming. Their story left me a long lasting impression because (a) one of the IJN pilots had lost his arm in an earlier combat, but he was still flying, (b) I could not imagine the emotion of those pilots --- they dared to take off the base in a formation of 2 planes when they knew they were going to face off with 1000 planes.

DIRTY-MAC
02-01-2006, 06:29 AM
bump

J_Anonymous
02-01-2006, 07:52 AM
I have a Japanese book written by the chief designer Mr. Horikoshi of A6 Zero. It turned out that he devoted one chapter of the book to J2 Raiden and A7 Reppu. I am too busy now to describe the details here, but I already made a few interesting findings. Note that the following is based on chief designer's own word, written in Japanese, in 1951 (2nd soft cover edition published in Japan in 1975):
(a) The planning of the "test model 14 interceptor", which eventaully became J2M1 Raiden, began in 1939. It was 2 years before WW2 in the Pacific theater began, and 6 years before B29 showed up over Japan's mainland. He states that the concept of interceptor was first adopted by the airforce of another island nation that needed to prtect its airspace, the U.K.
(b) There was some controversey above or another thread about cannon/machinegun and their ammo load. The "test model 14 (J2M1)" and J2M2 had 7.7mm x2 and 20mm x2, but only 155 of J2M2 were manufactured. J2M3 had (type-99 20mm) x2 and (type-2 20mm) x2. J2M3a had (type-2 20mm) x4 with belt-type ammo loading mechanisms, and they had (in his own word) "about 200" ammo.
(c) The post at the top of this thread quotes the engine horsepower as 1800 hp. The chart 24 in the Japanese book provides a comparison of J2 models, and as far as I can see none of the J2 had 1800 hp engine. J2M3 and J2M3a had "Kasei 23a" engine that had 1575hp at 1800 meters and 1410 hp at 4800 meters. I am not sure if the aforementioned "1800 hp" is due to incorrect translation of Japanese documents, or perhaps later test in the U.S. with high octane fuel actually produced 1800 hp. Throughout the development of J2 Raiden, the development team had to struggle with the poor performance of existing engines and delays of manufacturing of high performance engines. He states that the awkward shape of the fuselage was the consequence of their effort to reduce air resistance from a large diamter engine which didn't produce enough power. A tragic consequence was that, since many pilots who flew J2 Raiden near the end of the war were inexperienced rookies, they could not handle the poor front view, hence accidents.

Stigler_9_JG52
02-01-2006, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
In more than two years of reading these forums, Stigler, I don't think I've read one single positive pro-FB post by you!! Why do you even come in here?? Is it just to bemoan everyone who even gets the smallest satisfaction from playing this game? Or are you just a miserable git?

I actually wrote some positive comments this week, if you'd care to look. But, you'd rather attack me based on whether what I write is "positive" or "complimentary to Oleg", rather than stick to the more relevant subject of "am I right or not". Care to comment?

No, I'm not a miserable git. I'm actually quite happy these days. Now if only A_rsenal could steal a match or two on the bloody road...

Kocur_
02-01-2006, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alert_1:
Just return from my little web trip and googgled out:
_______________________________________________
Span: 10.80 meters
Length: 9.95 meters
Height: 3.95 meters
Wing surface: 20.10 sq m.
Wing load: 171 kg/sq m
Weight empty: 2 460 kg
Weight loaded: 3 435 kg

Propulsion
Power (total): 1 800 HP
Specific power: 524 HP / tonne
Maximum speed: 587 kph
Initial climb: 1170 m/min.
Service ceiling: 11 700 meters
Range: 1 898 km
1 Mitsubishi MK4R-A 'Kasei 23A' engine (1 800 HP)

Designed by the same team as the Zero, it epitomized the reverse philosophy: the
manoeuvrability was sacrificed to performances. The plane was outstandingly stable, while
armament, speed and firepower put it on top of the fighters of the Imperial Navy.
Manoeuvrability on the other hand, especially at higher speed, was bad. Furthermore, the
plane suffered during its whole career of numerous accidents and a glaring lack of
reliability.
________________________________________________

So, maneuvrability was sacrificed to speed, yet handling at high speed was poor, Raiden had 1800hp engine but was able to reach only 587 km/h.
Am I alone who can wait to saddle that IJN wonder ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

I would say that by behavior in air its like Japanese I-185 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So something is not right in the game Mr Oleg!
Must be that I-185 shares problem of underweight with LaGGs! Or perhaps it has problem of additional wing area?
For there is no way that "behavior in air" would be "like" for two planes:

J2M3 of 3.435kg/20,1m^2 = 171kg/m^2

and

I-185/M71 of 3.735kg/15,53m^2 = 240kg/m^2(that is like for Fw-190A9)

or even

I-185/M82 of 3.328kg/15,53m^2 = 214kg/m^2 (that is like for Fw-190A5 or 6)

Wingloadings of both I-185s were so drastically higher than J2M3 (1,4 times for I-185/M71 and 1,25 times for I-185/M82), that FMs of them could not be similar.


Btw: Are Yaks going to have bug of inflammable fuel tanks fixed in 4.03?

Kocur_
02-01-2006, 02:56 PM
Khem... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Xiolablu3
02-01-2006, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alert_1:
Just return from my little web trip and googgled out:
_______________________________________________
Span: 10.80 meters
Length: 9.95 meters
Height: 3.95 meters
Wing surface: 20.10 sq m.
Wing load: 171 kg/sq m
Weight empty: 2 460 kg
Weight loaded: 3 435 kg

Propulsion
Power (total): 1 800 HP
Specific power: 524 HP / tonne
Maximum speed: 587 kph
Initial climb: 1170 m/min.
Service ceiling: 11 700 meters
Range: 1 898 km
1 Mitsubishi MK4R-A 'Kasei 23A' engine (1 800 HP)

Designed by the same team as the Zero, it epitomized the reverse philosophy: the
manoeuvrability was sacrificed to performances. The plane was outstandingly stable, while
armament, speed and firepower put it on top of the fighters of the Imperial Navy.
Manoeuvrability on the other hand, especially at higher speed, was bad. Furthermore, the
plane suffered during its whole career of numerous accidents and a glaring lack of
reliability.
________________________________________________

So, maneuvrability was sacrificed to speed, yet handling at high speed was poor, Raiden had 1800hp engine but was able to reach only 587 km/h.
Am I alone who can wait to saddle that IJN wonder ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

I would say that by behavior in air its like Japanese I-185 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So something is not right in the game Mr Oleg!
Must be that I-185 shares problem of underweight with LaGGs! Or perhaps it has problem of additional wing area?
For there is no way that "behavior in air" would be "like" for two planes:

J2M3 of 3.435kg/20,1m^2 = 171kg/m^2

and

I-185/M71 of 3.735kg/15,53m^2 = 240kg/m^2(that is like for Fw-190A9)

or even

I-185/M82 of 3.328kg/15,53m^2 = 214kg/m^2 (that is like for Fw-190A5 or 6)

Wingloadings of both I-185s were so drastically higher than J2M3 (1,4 times for I-185/M71 and 1,25 times for I-185/M82), that FMs of them could not be similar.


Btw: Are Yaks going to have bug of inflammable fuel tanks fixed in 4.03? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Is Oleg going for No1 forum troll? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Thats a damn good first effort... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Grey_Mouser67
02-01-2006, 06:40 PM
Oleg is trolling!

No, I think the comparison might be accurate. I would expect the climb rate to be good, the firepower to be good, rate of roll good, turn mediocre, and accelaration be good....If it is properly modelled, it will be slower than its enemy but it aught to be a lot of fun!

I'm looking forward to the inclusion of many more Japanese aircraft....they burn nicely!

Kocur_
02-01-2006, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:
Oleg is trolling!

No, I think the comparison might be accurate. I would expect the climb rate to be good, the firepower to be good, rate of roll good, turn mediocre, and accelaration be good....If it is properly modelled, it will be slower than its enemy but it aught to be a lot of fun!

I'm looking forward to the inclusion of many more Japanese aircraft....they burn nicely!

Turning of J2M3 should be exellent! Relatively low wingloading plus nice powerloading would ensure that. It should also accelerate worse than I-185, especially at higher speeds, as the latter having only 3/4 of J2M3 wingarea, while rest of aerodynamical configuration is almost identical, should have considerably lower drag.
But NO WAY both should turn similarly! Wingloadings of both I-185s are very close to wingloadings of Fw190! 214kg/m^2 of I-185M82 is HIGH wingloading and 240kg/m^2 of I-185M71 is VERY HIGH! In another words I-185s should turn like Fw-190s, NOT LIKE J2M3 of merely 171kg/m^2!! How in the world can I-185 turn so good in this game? It is so polar distant to Fw-190 in turning, despite so very close RL technical parameters, that it has to be a bug! If that could happen to LaGGs, it could also to I-185...

p1ngu666
02-02-2006, 03:28 AM
its got huge slats kocur http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

nakamura_kenji
02-02-2006, 03:36 AM
think mean both plane no chance show full potential, j2m3 to late war make difference i-185 politics kill

j2m3 party trick is climb rocket^_^

Kocur_
02-02-2006, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
its got huge slats kocur http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Aha http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Do they deploy in ALL manouvers? At any speed? Or at low, near-stall speed only? And if they work at all speeds - they SHOULD generate SOME drag! Does I-185 loose speed drastically in its any-speed-tight turns? Noooo! I WONDERR WHY?