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View Full Version : Loosing lead on a turning target - what to do?



Jex_TE
09-28-2008, 04:11 AM
The situation is I'm behind a plane and he's in a turn so the picture I'm seeing is an almost top down view of his aircraft. I go to pull lead and just as the x-hair is getting in front of his nose I loose turn and the x-hair starts slipping back towards his tail and the shot is no longer viable.

I understand a lot depends on what type of plane you're in but presumably I'm going to now be fairly slow. So a few questions

1) Should I have kept a lag pursuit for longer and then pulled in as I understand dogfighting is about getting angles but don't really understand it.

2) I have bled off energy trying to pull lead for a guns shot. What should I do?

2a) And have I just lost my advantage? Should I have unloaded earlier and repositioned or bugged out?

3) So I am still behind the bandit but is he now out turning me or is it just a matter of angles that's causing the offset? Is it possible to tell?

4) Now I guess I'm in a turning fight and now I'd presume that it comes down to the plane so what would you do now? Unload and bug out or stick with the turn and try and get position again (remembering I'm a newbie here so I'd like my best option for me and then what the ace's of the base here would do?

Thanks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

dirkpit7
09-28-2008, 04:44 AM
You should avoid shooting from high-G turns. If the enemy turns and you can't bring him to your sight, pull up and start planning the next attack.

Deflection shooting is easier when you can pass the enemy's flight path flying straight or only doing small adjustments.

julian265
09-28-2008, 07:11 AM
It depends what plane you and the enemy are in, and how many friendlies, bandits, and unknowns are around.

1. No, lag pursuit won't get you a better angle if you can't turn tighter anyway, and you're fairly close and slow.

2. You'll eventually learn to assess whether you will or won't be able to get a shot earlier. When you know you won't be able (or willing) to pull the lead required for a hit, if you're not being threatened yourself, do a gentle high yo-yo or immelmann, and come back down on the enemy. If you've already pulled a tight turn and lack the E to pull up, you've cut it too fine.

2a and 3. Maybe, maybe not. Many variables.

4. If you know your plane can't turn inside your enemy's (eg 190 vs spit), then when you miss the first shot, you should extend away at full power - the opponent's tight turn should have cost him energy, giving you a chance to run away.

As dirkpit says, in some planes like the 190 or tempest, you're better off waiting for the enemy to start a turn whilst still well behind it, then position your gunsight *well* ahead of the enemy's predicted path, then make minor adjustments and shoot as he's about to pass through your sight. The high deflection shots aren't as challenging as they might seem.

Unless you're flying a vastly inferior aircraft, don't be afraid to give up on a shot early, and extend or pull an immelmann. When entering a fight with fairly equal E, I often fly pretty gently, not trying to shoot, just trying to make the enemy turn harder to get a low probability shot on me. After a few attempts the enemy usually has less E, which is when I go for my shot.

M_Gunz
09-28-2008, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by Jex_TE:
The situation is I'm behind a plane and he's in a turn so the picture I'm seeing is an almost top down view of his aircraft. I go to pull lead and just as the x-hair is getting in front of his nose I loose turn and the x-hair starts slipping back towards his tail and the shot is no longer viable.

I understand a lot depends on what type of plane you're in but presumably I'm going to now be fairly slow. So a few questions

1) Should I have kept a lag pursuit for longer and then pulled in as I understand dogfighting is about getting angles but don't really understand it.

2) I have bled off energy trying to pull lead for a guns shot. What should I do?

2a) And have I just lost my advantage? Should I have unloaded earlier and repositioned or bugged out?

3) So I am still behind the bandit but is he now out turning me or is it just a matter of angles that's causing the offset? Is it possible to tell?

4) Now I guess I'm in a turning fight and now I'd presume that it comes down to the plane so what would you do now? Unload and bug out or stick with the turn and try and get position again (remembering I'm a newbie here so I'd like my best option for me and then what the ace's of the base here would do?

Thanks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Should I have unloaded earlier and repositioned or bugged out?

My, for the terms you can use I wonder how you let yourself get in that situation!

You should know your speed and drop out way sooner than what you started here with.
You could *maybe* have dropped your nose and cut along inside his circle, coming up from 50m
under to hit him but I dunno if at the point you state if you had enough speed to do that.
The way you wrote what you did it's about impossible to make a call except "You shouldn't
have gone as far as you did.".

Tranie117
09-28-2008, 12:11 PM
I fly the P-38 against historically acurate opponants... Zeros. This means I cannot win by trying to out turn them. I recently made a post asking what good tactics would be against the zero. I learnt all about Attack runs and how hight and speed is very important. I recomend flying a P-38 against a Zero flying your current tactics and you'll see what I mean. You cannot out turn them. Just try climbing nd then coming down on them. You'll see. I learnt loads doing that! Check the post.

Xiolablu3
09-30-2008, 05:24 AM
Climb

M_Gunz
09-30-2008, 05:43 AM
When you have bled down to the point where the target is leaving you --- he has more energy
than you and is flying a lower energy path (you are slowing, he is separating) than you are
then climbing is a poor option as he can come around on your six even quicker if you do.

If he's not already low to go with the slow then his best option is to split-S while he
is behind the target and get out of Dodge before he's in front of the other's guns.

Read the relative energy states in his account. He's blown the attack and then some.