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View Full Version : Historical Fw 190 High speed dive vs in game speeds



mynameisroland
08-11-2005, 05:10 AM
In IL2 series I can dive the Fw 190 to speeds of around 1050km\h ~ 1100km\h or so before the AC begins to dissolve and a recovery becomes impossible.

After reading up on the subject in The Focke-wulf Fw 190 in North Africa and also in Raf trials of flying the Fw 190 it appears that the dive speed is a little undermoddeled.

In Fw 190 in North Africa it covers the procedures followed for dive bombing in the Fw 190. The pilots were instructed to enter 60 deg dives when attacking heavily defended targets reaching speeds of over 1000km/h before bomb release and recovery.

In Raf tactical trials, the Raf test pilot took the Fw 190 to 934km/h in testing the AC's diving capabilities. The report commented that the AC was still remarkably responsive at such speeds and the controls remained relatively light.

In both accounts it is unlikely that the Pilots would be pushing their AC to breaking point. The operational use of dive bombing to over 1000km/h speeds makes no sense if the break up speed was 1050Km/h or so as the discernible difference between 1025km/h and 1060km/h lets say would not be noticable as you were lining up a target and releasing your bomb.

Likewise a Raf test pilot would give up a long way before the AC felt dangerous and likely to break up due to unfamiliarity on the type.

Lastly whatever happened to the Fw 190's response at high speed in this patch? At 900km/h it has virtually no roll control yet the test document credits the type with 'relatively light' controls at this speed.

Hristo_
08-11-2005, 05:26 AM
got any scans or references ? sounds interesting

mynameisroland
08-11-2005, 05:31 AM
The RAF tests are the usual Faber's captured AC report that everybody has seen before, the Fw 190 in Africa is at home and I would be able to scan the diagram and the text describing dive bombing tactics. I think the manuver commenced at 3000m altitude.

Has anyone ever reached 1000km/h in game with a bomb on their rack released it over target and recovered? The best Ive done was reach 1060 km/h in Dora in an evasive dive and the recovery was made above 2000m altitude.

JG53Frankyboy
08-11-2005, 05:35 AM
wasnt that 943km/h in TAS ?????

"Dive
The Fw 190 has a high rate of dive, the initial acceleration being excellent. The maximum speed so far obtained in a dive is 580 m.p.h. |934 k.m./h.l True at 16,000 ft [4,880 m|, and at this speed the controls, although slightly heavier, are still remarkably light. One very g<x>d feature is that no alteration of trim form level flight is required either during the entry or during the pull-out. Due to the fuel injection system it is possible to enter the dive by pushing the control column forward without the engine cutting."

so...............................

Hristo_
08-11-2005, 05:54 AM
Hmm, am I doing something wrong ?

In game, I shed wings off Fw 190A-9 at 850 kph IAS, near the deck.

mynameisroland
08-11-2005, 05:57 AM
So over 1000kmh in a dive asuming it is TAS they are refering to would be over 600mph! The reasons for employing these tactics were due to the intense AAA at the Allied beah head in Anzio. It was the only way of having a good chance of emerging unscathed

mynameisroland
08-11-2005, 06:02 AM
Originally posted by Hristo_:
Hmm, am I doing something wrong ?

In game, I shed wings off Fw 190A-9 at 850 kph IAS, near the deck.

IL2 models low altitude and high altitude very differently it is possible to fly faster in the thinner air above 5000/6000m or so. I dont think I would have recovered a[at 1060 km/h if I was on the deck.

The dive bombing account does however, indicate that these speeds and recoveries were used at ultra low level.

JG53Frankyboy
08-11-2005, 06:06 AM
crimea map - Fw190A4

dive from 7500m.
i reach 947km/h TAS at 4100m - thats 740km/h IAS

far away from the ingame Vnever , that is around 850km/h IAS.

.............................................

Pirschjaeger
08-11-2005, 06:09 AM
Before the last patch I was flying a 109A4 and in a turn lost one wing. I was only going about 750 kph. There were no other planes around and no one shot me. Since then I've been quite careful with the 190s at highspeeds. I didn't like the new limitation. I haven't really tried highspeed too much with the new FM(once bitten, twice shy) but I think I will.

BTW, which 190 model were you referring to?

Fritz

mynameisroland
08-11-2005, 06:27 AM
It would be the A3 model in the RAF tests and the A5 for the Luftwaffe dive bombing techniques. It was also interesting to read that the proper A5's they receieved bulit for long range bombing were pigs and they qickliy removed most of the extra gear and patched them back up so they were like the standard A5 fighter version capable of taking a centre line store.

The version they thought was a pig was the Fw 190 A5 fitted with provisions for wing stores and long rabge tanks this was the type captured by the US forces and sted against Hellcat and Corsair. I think.

Pirschjaeger
08-11-2005, 07:08 AM
Interesting Roland.

What would be more interesting is if those who have test specs, from reality, would post them in this thread. Then we could compare the data and find an average. The test the FM in the game and compare the results with those of the averaged real specs.

Not challenging you, but simply saying one set of test results are not enough. After being in GD for about 4 years I have seen many official test results differing. But, we could possibly make an average.

What do you think?

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
08-11-2005, 07:16 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Roland,

For testing the FM we could first agree on how the tests should be conducted and also the parameters. I, for one, would be willing to take the time to make these tests as I'm sure many others would. Then, depending on the results, we could inform Oleg of the tests, this thread, and the results. That would be useful for him.

But I'm sorry, I don't have any real tests specs to contribute.

Fritz

Christos_swc
08-11-2005, 04:49 PM
Ripping off your wings in the game appears to depend not only on speed reached but how long you keep it going.
You can brake up at 1100 or at 950 if you stay there long enough.
In the real world it worked pretty much the same.
In many cases an a\c made a very high speed dive and came out of it with no probs only to brake up in the next mission in another high speed dive.
It could only handle this much for so long, if you did it again it would break up.
The 109's dive speed was limited to something like 750KM but many pilots exceeded that with no probs.
There's a million factors that influence max diving speed, including a/c age and use, hits taken, alt, manufacturing variations etc.
If I were this games designer, getting the max diving speeds right would be a major headache.

LEXX_Luthor
08-11-2005, 05:40 PM
m::
The reasons for employing these tactics were due to the intense AAA at the Allied beah head in Anzio. It was the only way of having a good chance of emerging unscathed
Sweet, and new for me. Fw-190s used dive bombing with ~very~ high speed dives because of intense AA fire at the beaches? Is it as fun yet scary as it sounds, if you have tried this yet?

Grey_Mouser67
08-11-2005, 06:38 PM
No way for me to test it, but I haven't found that changing speed, altitude or manuevering helps with the big flak guns... I believe this is because the bursts are a proximity thing. I also believe this to be a big flaw in the game that isn't muched talked about.

I do find that manuevering can help against the small AAA like 20mm and of course it really seems to help in terms of time over target more than anything. Go fast and you have less shells fired at you, hence your survival chances increase....but I really dont' think it affects AI gunnery accuracy in the least.

An opportunity for BoB.

LeadSpitter_
08-11-2005, 06:56 PM
speed of sound at sea level = 1225.044 km/h

Pirschjaeger
08-11-2005, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
speed of sound at sea level = 1225.044 km/h

That sound would be a wingless plane hitting sea level. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

mynameisroland
08-12-2005, 07:16 AM
Here is the reference I was refering to

"~For targets in the enemy's rear area the front line was crossed at the height of about 3000m in order to remain beyond the range of light flak. The unit then contiued climbing so that by the time it reached the target its altitude was between 4000 and 6000m. Speed was increased as the formation approached and dived onto the target. If possible, the dive was to be made out of the sun. Dive speeds frequently rose to over 1000kph but a well-trimmed Fw 190 would stay manuverable enough to allow adjustments to be made while aiming. The dive angle was between 45 and 70 degrees and bombs were released between 700 and 1000m. With skilled pilots and a well-led formation, the number of hits was satisfactory. ~ Often the Fw 190's pulled out really low and used the speed built up in the dive to get clear of the flak quickly... The return flight was made at really low level and strafing attacks were carried out against vehicles... Landing was carried out by one aircraft at a time, with one Staffel being ordered to stay over the airfield to provide cover for those landing."

F.Schroeter, Ground-attack Operations in the Mediterranean, Karlsruhe Collection.

Rechlin Approach
The steps of a dive-bombing attack:
(1) Target Approach
(2) Commence dive
(3) 50 to 70 deg dive
(4) Just before bomb release nose was eased up a bit to ensure that bomb would go clear of the propellor
(5) Bomb release
(6) High speed getaway

Excerpts from Focke-wulf The Fw 190 in North Africa , Andrew Arthy and Morten Jessen, Air War Classics.

mynameisroland
08-12-2005, 07:19 AM
I find the reference to how the Fw 190 remained controllable enough for adjustments to aiming at 1000kph pretty interesting. At those kind of speeds in game you are looking at concrete controls and possibly losing surfaces. Let alone being able to recover at 1000 - 700m>

Xiolablu3
08-12-2005, 08:03 AM
If I go much over 750k (on the yellow icon, not sure if its TAS or what) and turn at all I often loose a wing,

In ANY plane.

Slater_51st
08-13-2005, 12:07 AM
I was looking for this earlier, but couldn't find it, found it while cruising some model reviews:

"Joining JG 54 during the Battle of Britain, Lang soon established himself as not only an outstanding pilot but an experte of the first rank and was the senior Staffelkapitaen at the time II Gruppe transferred to the Fw-190.. As a qualified test pilot, Lang decided shortly after taking delivery of his Fw-190A-4 and returning with it to Siverskaya to see what the airplane was really capable of. He took it to its maximum altitude, wallowing at 27,000 feet, then rolled and aimed the nose straight down in a terminal-velocity dive. The dive was so long that the propeller arc became a dive brake as the airplane achieved its absolute maximum speed somewhere in the vicinity of 600 mph. It took all of Lang‚‚ā¨ôs considerable strength (his nickname came from his size) to pull the stick back sufficiently to pull out without hitting the ground. Back at the base, the other pilots gathered around to count the missing rivets in the wing root and recheck the dihedral, only to find all rivets resolutely unpopped! Lang‚‚ā¨ôs dive was the ultimate confidence-builder for the unit."

While I don't have the author's name, this is a fairly well documented event http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

S! Slater

Pirschjaeger
08-15-2005, 11:32 PM
Ok, just did 3 simple tests.

I did this with the A4, A5, and A6

I used qmb and set the starting alt to 5000. The fuel was at 50%. The loadout was default. Radiators on auto.

I first flew level at 5000 and the speed before starting the dive was 400. My angle was about 110 degrees with full throttle and holding the plane as smooth as possible.

At 700 the plane starts to shake. At 860 the ailerons, elevators, and rudders begin to detatch.

This was the same for all three planes.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
08-15-2005, 11:35 PM
BTW, did I conduct the test properly or should I have done something differently?

Fritz

Hristo_
08-15-2005, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Ok, just did 3 simple tests.

I did this with the A4, A5, and A6

I used qmb and set the starting alt to 5000. The fuel was at 50%. The loadout was default. Radiators on auto.

I first flew level at 5000 and the speed before starting the dive was 400. My angle was about 110 degrees with full throttle and holding the plane as smooth as possible.

At 700 the plane starts to shake. At 860 the ailerons, elevators, and rudders begin to detatch.

This was the same for all three planes.

Fritz

Exactly the same for me. Go over 850 kph and the plane is almost certainly lost.

Lang's 600 mph (965 kph) dive cannot be done in this sim.

Fehler
08-16-2005, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by Hristo_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Ok, just did 3 simple tests.

I did this with the A4, A5, and A6

I used qmb and set the starting alt to 5000. The fuel was at 50%. The loadout was default. Radiators on auto.

I first flew level at 5000 and the speed before starting the dive was 400. My angle was about 110 degrees with full throttle and holding the plane as smooth as possible.

At 700 the plane starts to shake. At 860 the ailerons, elevators, and rudders begin to detatch.

This was the same for all three planes.

Fritz

Exactly the same for me. Go over 850 kph and the plane is almost certainly lost.

Lang's 600 mph (965 kph) dive cannot be done in this sim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quitcher whinein boy! LOL

Pirschjaeger
08-16-2005, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by Hristo_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Ok, just did 3 simple tests.

I did this with the A4, A5, and A6

I used qmb and set the starting alt to 5000. The fuel was at 50%. The loadout was default. Radiators on auto.

I first flew level at 5000 and the speed before starting the dive was 400. My angle was about 110 degrees with full throttle and holding the plane as smooth as possible.

At 700 the plane starts to shake. At 860 the ailerons, elevators, and rudders begin to detatch.

This was the same for all three planes.

Fritz

Exactly the same for me. Go over 850 kph and the plane is almost certainly lost.

Lang's 600 mph (965 kph) dive cannot be done in this sim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If this is inaccurate with the 190's( a plane famous for dive speed)then I have to wonder iif it's the same case with all other planes in the sim.

I did the same test with the 109 K4 and had no problems. I reached more than 900kph without any damage. Some how I think the 190 should be able to handle a higher speed than the 109. Is this right or wrong?

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
08-16-2005, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by Fehler:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristo_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Ok, just did 3 simple tests.

I did this with the A4, A5, and A6

I used qmb and set the starting alt to 5000. The fuel was at 50%. The loadout was default. Radiators on auto.

I first flew level at 5000 and the speed before starting the dive was 400. My angle was about 110 degrees with full throttle and holding the plane as smooth as possible.

At 700 the plane starts to shake. At 860 the ailerons, elevators, and rudders begin to detatch.

This was the same for all three planes.

Fritz

Exactly the same for me. Go over 850 kph and the plane is almost certainly lost.

Lang's 600 mph (965 kph) dive cannot be done in this sim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quitcher whinein boy! LOL </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif I'm tellin'

Fritz

mynameisroland
08-16-2005, 08:51 AM
I am going to test some dive speeds now, I'll arm the AC with 1x 500kg bomb then dive from 5000m attemting to reach 900kmh before recovery. I will use the Fw A4/5/6/8/9 and see what I get.

I read also in a test report that the stick forces requred to control the Fw 190 at speeds of 400mph were in the region of 6lbs for the Me 109 it was 60lbs. The 109 pilots claimed that the AC could be manuvered at speed only that it required a great deal of strength!

The Fw should be hitting speeds faster than the 109 in a dive as it was heavier , cleaner and had similarly small aerodynamic profile.

mynameisroland
08-16-2005, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by Slater_51st:
I was looking for this earlier, but couldn't find it, found it while cruising some model reviews:

"Joining JG 54 during the Battle of Britain, Lang soon established himself as not only an outstanding pilot but an experte of the first rank and was the senior Staffelkapitaen at the time II Gruppe transferred to the Fw-190.. As a qualified test pilot, Lang decided shortly after taking delivery of his Fw-190A-4 and returning with it to Siverskaya to see what the airplane was really capable of. He took it to its maximum altitude, wallowing at 27,000 feet, then rolled and aimed the nose straight down in a terminal-velocity dive. The dive was so long that the propeller arc became a dive brake as the airplane achieved its absolute maximum speed somewhere in the vicinity of 600 mph. It took all of Lang‚‚ā¨ôs considerable strength (his nickname came from his size) to pull the stick back sufficiently to pull out without hitting the ground. Back at the base, the other pilots gathered around to count the missing rivets in the wing root and recheck the dihedral, only to find all rivets resolutely unpopped! Lang‚‚ā¨ôs dive was the ultimate confidence-builder for the unit."

While I don't have the author's name, this is a fairly well documented event http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

S! Slater

Ive read this excerpt too, if you read further on it states that the pilots checked out the Fw 190 after it had landed looking for rippled skin or any popped rivets and they found nothing!

Kocur_
08-16-2005, 09:11 AM
Dont have idea on numbers but I can tell you Fw-190 wing was extremely stiff. The plane couldnt reach speed high enough to build enough twisting force around wing's long axis to make it dangerous for the structure. AFAIK no ailerons reverse observed, unlike, say Bf-109. That combined with far better elevator authority leads to conclusion that Fw-190 was in RL, and should be in game, much safer in dive than Bf-109 of any version.

mynameisroland
08-16-2005, 09:45 AM
Just did a few tests,

Wonder woman view, QMB Okinawa map targets armour. Starting altitude 3000m with advantage ( I reach target at about 3800m circa. Nose over in to a 70 deg dive and hit 800km/h or so at 1900/1800 m by the timeI have released bomb it is 860km/h recovery speed maxes out around 960km/h

I tested with all AC and the only one I didnt lose any control surfaces on was the A4 ! I released the bomb slightly earlier in the A4 so I could be more gentle in the recovery and it topped out at 920 or so km/h.

It is impossible to take the Fw 190 over 1000kmh while in the bomb aiming stage and recover you will disintergrate. You need to release, id say, around 850km/h to stand a decent chance of recovery and go no faster than 920km/h if you want to keep controls.

Which ever way you look at it it seems impossible to recreate the accounts of pilots reaching 1000km/h plus while suffering no damage.

mynameisroland
08-16-2005, 09:51 AM
Just quickly tested 109 K4 same conditions . This AC can hit 900km/h before bomb release and recover with no trim of flaps deploye from a 70deg dive at 950km/h under 1000m alt http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Am I missing something? did they switch FM ?

edit

Just tried P38 L Late same conditions this time 2 x 500lb's Reached 920km/h before bomb release at 1000m recoverd at 960km/h no control loss by deploying airbrake and combat flaps.

Kocur_
08-16-2005, 09:59 AM
Would you be surprised? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

BlackStar2000
08-16-2005, 11:05 AM
Sry but have u guys tested in what speed La and Yaks break wings?

NorrisMcWhirter
08-16-2005, 12:12 PM
This is an interesting find.

I don't normally dive bomb at 900kmh+ but I certainly do dive away from/follow/attack bandits in high speed dives and have noticed that the 190 is a little more fragile than it used to be in the dive. I've not noticed shedding wings in 4.01 as I did in 3.04 (even with gentle pullouts), though.

If you need any assistance with testing, give me a shout.

Ta,
Norris

Aaron_GT
08-16-2005, 02:42 PM
AFAIK no ailerons reverse observed, unlike, say Bf-109.

I thought that reversal WAS possible, but only if the ailerons were badly adjusted with lots of slack. (Or maybe then it just gave the impression of reversal due to the slack in the system?)

mynameisroland
08-20-2005, 02:39 PM
Hi Norris,

Only thing that concerns me is that if a P38 can dive as fast if not faster than the Fw 190 we have a slight discrepency in what happenes in game and what happens in reality. The Spitfire dives well but IMO breaks up to soon also. In a terminal dive the Spitfire was the fastest prop AC of the era.

Have you tried the QMB set up yet?

BBB_Hyperion
08-20-2005, 10:44 PM
Gauge errors have been the reason for many incompareable dive limits. Of course Handbooks and Pilots refer to ias cause that is what the gauge reads(Later gauges got tas conversion too) and that is what the pilot sees.

So when comparing data you need to remember gauges were inaccurate at high decent or climb rates the error margin got bigger the closer to mach. Without correction factor and correct instrument id it is not possible to get a reliable conversion. So when a gauge reads 1000 km/h it doesnt mean the plane speed is 1000 km/h nor does it mean it is tas. Further to the error effect of the gauge itself other factors appear like airflow over measure device which can drasticaly change at high speed dives and maybe gives wrong data as a pressure front has been build around it. So speaking of historical data can be misleading cause they are not compareable to correct tas or ias values.

Badsight.
08-21-2005, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by Slater_51st:
yada yada yada this is the exact experience i was combing thru my mags for again

the FW-190 basically didnt have a Vne , the prop acted as a brake before airframe failure

ive seen a 1200 Km/h speed in the speedbar in a screenshot posted by another forum member before , diving a P-47

dont know what the breakup speed on the P-47 is now - but the Thunderbolt has always held the dive speed record in this sim