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View Full Version : Mr. Maddox, how much money do you need?



idonno
05-26-2005, 10:01 AM
I'll pay $100 for the next version of Pacific Fighters (I mean after 4.0), or even $200 if that's what it takes. Just don't stop development.

Hire the extra people necessary to continue work on PF, without pulling any one off of BOB, and I'll pay whatever it takes. I'm not really looking forward to BOB because, like PF, it will be ALMOST everything it could be. I would much prefer a complete PF to an incomplete anything else.


P.S. But in any case, PF or BOB, we need a sleep setting for the land based ack!

goshikisen
05-26-2005, 10:10 AM
I would certainly be willing to pay more for the products that Maddox Games releases but I don't know if the market could bear a higher price. I'd have paid much more for a PF that was closer to complete.

I hope these whisperings and rumours about pay add ons for PF are true. I'd pre-order if they were taking orders.

Regards, Goshikisen.

idonno
05-26-2005, 10:19 AM
One more thing I should add; I don't have $200, http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif but you can believe I'd come up with it somehow if it meant having a more complete PF.

badaboom.1
05-26-2005, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by idonno:
One more thing I should add; I don't have $200, http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif but you can believe I'd come up with it somehow if it meant having a more complete PF. Hello idonno!I'll tell you what I will be glad to lend you $200Errr....at 25% intrest that is! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WereSnowleopard
05-26-2005, 01:32 PM
Well, I think Mr.Maddox prefer manpower over money to get his project done better. Money won't make different as genuis brain will make different.

RamsteinUSA
05-26-2005, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by idonno:
Snipped....

Hire the extra people necessary to continue work on PF, without pulling any one off of BOB, and I'll pay whatever it takes. I'm not really looking forward to BOB because, like PF, it will be ALMOST everything it could be. I would much prefer a complete PF to an incomplete anything else.
...........
snip............ ack!

I had had it with some of the nastiness here, but your post brought me back because you put 'My Words' in for me.. It is only half done, and am not happy with half-done sims..

I had already put my feeling (or rant if you wanna call it that) up on my website..

To sum up what i said, waiting for many years for at least one WWII flight sim developer to realease, and finish a WWII Pacific Flight Sim, and this one too has fallen short, but am hoping it it not left in pieces and scraps before development has stopped.... I have no interest in BOB, unless PF has been finished, and am not going to buy anothe r1/2 finished sim..
see the long list of Pacific Sims that 'could have been'... they are all over the place in Internet and PC Gaming/Simulation History...


http://www.virtualairforce.com/postnuke/index.php

Copperhead310th
05-26-2005, 06:11 PM
not really up to Oleg guys. UBI has him by the ******. READ-----> <span class="ev_code_RED">CONTRACTUAL OBLIGATION</span>

sucks don't it? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

idonno
05-27-2005, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
not really up to Oleg guys. UBI has him by the ******. READ-----> <span class="ev_code_RED">CONTRACTUAL OBLIGATION</span>

sucks don't it? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

So you're saying UBI doesn't want to make money? Because I'm telling you, they would get a lot more of mine if they would finish what they start and charge me a lot more for it.

goshikisen
05-27-2005, 08:37 AM
Eagle Dynamics seemed to be able to regain control of LOMAC from Ubisoft. Flaming Cliffs has nothing to do with Ubi and can be ordered worldwide from their Russian site. Too bad Oleg can't come to a similar agreement with Ubi. The current arrangement isn't good for the long term health of the IL2 series.

TacticalYak3
05-27-2005, 08:54 AM
Then perhaps there's another group here that while they appreciate the effort, and are glad for its release (especially with the improvements and added content), but find themselves back enjoying the Eastern and Western Fronts.

SaQSoN
05-27-2005, 10:02 AM
Eagle Dynamics seemed to be able to regain control of LOMAC from Ubisoft. Flaming Cliffs has nothing to do with Ubi and can be ordered worldwide from their Russian site. Too bad Oleg can't come to a similar agreement with Ubi. The current arrangement isn't good for the long term health of the IL2 series.

The LOMAC was acually DROPPED by Ubi. It is a long story, but believe me, it is not in favour of ED. And the fact, that happened is actually not any good for ED, since Ubi was thier source for financing the work on their new projects. If they will not find another publisher - they're doomed as a game developer.

goshikisen
05-27-2005, 10:25 AM
So Maddox Games can't operate without a publisher and the publisher (Ubi) isn't interested in either financing or distributing any additional add ons for the IL2 series. Sounds like a classic catch 22 situation.

There is obvious interest in the continuation of the IL2 series... the Russian PE2 add on wouldn't be in development if this wasn't the case.

An unfortunate situation.

TheEngine88
05-27-2005, 11:19 AM
Don't need more people, just healthier ones who aren't "sick" quite so frequently.

SaQSoN
05-27-2005, 11:35 AM
Well, there are huge differences between Russian and EU/US gaming software markets.
Publishing in Russia is much simplier and thus cheaper task. While number of copies sold at the ex-USSR terriotry may be even larger, then the number at EU+US.

That's why the 1C still may see an interest in such addons.

And one more thing. If Oleg will spend too much time on even more add-ons, it could move the BoB release even further, which in turn may cause Ubi loosing interest in Oleg at all, dropping him, as they did to ED.

In either case, I believe, the "Russian" add-ons will be eventually published outside ex-USSR as well. Some of them, probably, will contain the Pacific stuff as well, however not to the extent, that could make you completely happy about the PTO in this game.

bolillo_loco
05-27-2005, 12:50 PM
ww II and wwI flight sims do not generate a lot of interest nor money. I am rather surpised that game companies even release them. think about it........if you made games would you rather use your resources at hand to make popular games which stand to make millions of dollars or would you make wwII combat flight sims which just barely cover the cost of developement.

Art-J
05-27-2005, 01:28 PM
A Hollywood-style WW2 aircombat movie would solve the problem of small interest http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Look: whenever next action-packed $hitty movie hits the theatres, there's always computer game of THE SAME title released immediately to make more profit... No matter how good/bad the game is (usually latter), thousands of popcorn-eaters charge the shops to buy it and play it - just like in "da freakin' movie, man".

So I say: let's find producer and director, who will make a "Il-2FBAEPPF" movie, starring Ben Affleck and some smokin' chick http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif. I'll bet 100 bucks the sales of our sim would increase after it's premiere http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

nearmiss
05-27-2005, 02:15 PM
The devs go gold, then release the product. Then they release a patch or two and it's a done deal.

There is another way, but would it be accepted?
Oleg would need an agreement to allow distribution through normal channels and then a way he can distribute other non-required kinda stuff like additional maps, planes, objects, etc. This way his releases and patches could satisfy the distributor and then he could improve the sim with further tweaks, fixes and stuff.

As it is I think the distributor pays Oleg for the initial release and a couple patches only. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

So Oleg, releases a paid add-on and the il2 series keeps on rolling. There you have it a continually upgraded IL2 series.

In fact, we're getting everything we'd probably be able to get anyway.

So be happy, Oleg is staying with the sim.

It's worked so far

zzzzzz someone mention Lomac above.

The biggest thing that killed Lomac is STARFORCE. They probably lost greater than 80%+ of their original Lomac purchasers. I for one, along with a bunch of others really noised it out on their boards. ED is doing their own thing, so that's a wrap. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Either they'll figure it out, or not http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

Microsoft has the limited number of activations embedded into the XP OS. It's 25 activations with XP pro. It's just a darned nuisance, because it really doesn't stop piracy. It's not as big an issues with MSFT, because it's activation limits is 5 times higher than Lomac.

That's not all that's wrong with Starforce, but it's still a problem. I'm not sure the Lomac is resellable with 5 activations... I love to ebay my old stuff.

idonno
05-27-2005, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by bolillo_loco:
ww II and wwI flight sims do not generate a lot of interest nor money...

Of course they don't generate a lot of money, because they don't charge enough for them. I would have paid more than the $40 that the original IL2 cost me, and I would have paid more than the $20 that PF cost, and I'm sure that I'm not at all alone in this.

Look at Warbirds and Aces High. People pay money month after month to play these sims, and I can tell you in the case of Warbirds at least, compared to IL2, there has been virtually no progress in the further development of that sim. I personally have paid well in excess of $1,000 over the last 6 years to play WB. Imagine what I'd be willing to pay for the further development of IL2.

Oleg, Ubi, keep making it better and I'll keep giving you my money, and more money than I've been asked to give so far.

It's this simple. Give us more of what we want, and we'll give you more of what you want.

tascaso
05-27-2005, 03:50 PM
Good thread...! I am in the same boat. PF is worthless as there is no basis for a realistic ongoing campaign..especially online in HL. DCG does a good job...but you really need the large fleets facing of in the huge blue pool called the Pacific. Without the large fleets of surface combatants the spell is broken!

Does anyone remember Aces in the Pacific! As for the price, yes I would pay big bucks for a completed PF addon.

T. Ascaso

nearmiss
05-27-2005, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by tascaso:
Good thread...! I am in the same boat. PF is worthless as there is no basis for a realistic ongoing campaign..especially online in HL. DCG does a good job...but you really need the large fleets facing of in the huge blue pool called the Pacific. Without the large fleets of surface combatants the spell is broken!

Does anyone remember Aces in the Pacific! As for the price, yes I would pay big bucks for a completed PF addon.

T. Ascaso

There were thousands of sorties flown each day all over the Pacific during the war. They were being flown from all kinds of bases and places. Being in the Battle of Midway, Mariannas Turkey Shoot, etc. big numbers are required. Remember, there was so much going on all over that you could actually be replaying an air combat scene that for real did actually play out during the war. The engagement may have only been 4 planes vs 2 planes, etc.

The IL2 series will not support large numbers of aircraft and ships, it's always been that way. The BOB will be different.

bolillo_loco
05-27-2005, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by idonno:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bolillo_loco:
ww II and wwI flight sims do not generate a lot of interest nor money...

Of course they don't generate a lot of money, because they don't charge enough for them. I would have paid more than the $40 that the original IL2 cost me, and I would have paid more than the $20 that PF cost, and I'm sure that I'm not at all alone in this.

Look at Warbirds and Aces High. People pay money month after month to play these sims, and I can tell you in the case of Warbirds at least, compared to IL2, there has been virtually no progress in the further development of that sim. I personally have paid well in excess of $1,000 over the last 6 years to play WB. Imagine what I'd be willing to pay for the further development of IL2.

Oleg, Ubi, keep making it better and I'll keep giving you my money, and more money than I've been asked to give so far.

It's this simple. Give us more of what we want, and we'll give you more of what you want. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure if your sheltered or what?? next time you go to a store that sells video games look around the shelves to see how many WWII combat flight sim games you can find, then look at all the other games. pc games make up 15-20% of the stores inventory at the local EB games. when ace expansion was released I called and reserved one before it hit the shelves, the manager told me that there was no reason to reserve it because he does not sell many and he only orders 4. he said that one person bought FB, I said yes that was me. he said he got 4 copies of fb and they did not sell. he told me he got 4 copies of ace expansion pack. I bought one, the other three still sit on the shelves. He got 4 copies of pacific fighters I bought one and the other three still sit on the shelf. charging more would not be the answer because I myself would not pay 80 dollars for a video game I would let it sit on the shelf till the price came down. the bottom line is WWII is not popular and WWII flight sims are even less popular. games made for play station and x box platforms are vastly more popular and kids could care less about wwII and flight sims in general. if they are interested in them they want the latest and greatest aircraft. I bet the money made from IL-2, forgotten battles, ace expansion pack, and pacific fighters was only a drop in the bucket compaired to DOOM III.

idonno
05-27-2005, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by bolillo_loco:...games made for play station and x box platforms are vastly more popular and kids could care less about wwII and flight sims in general. if they are interested in them they want the latest and greatest aircraft. I bet the money made from IL-2, forgotten battles, ace expansion pack, and pacific fighters was only a drop in the bucket compaired to DOOM III.

You may not be willing to pay $80, but I would, and I believe that many of us would. Enough to make up for the ones who won't

We are not kids waiting for the next version of Doom. World War Two IS popular with us, and WWII flight sims ARE popular with us as well. Our higher average age means we have the money to pay for what we want, and our joy sticks, throttles, rudder peddles, TrackIR's, and the system upgrades that we pay for show that we'll pay what we have to pay to get what we want.

Yes this is a small market, but it's made up of very dedicated customers.

nearmiss
05-27-2005, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by idonno:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bolillo_loco:...games made for play station and x box platforms are vastly more popular and kids could care less about wwII and flight sims in general. if they are interested in them they want the latest and greatest aircraft. I bet the money made from IL-2, forgotten battles, ace expansion pack, and pacific fighters was only a drop in the bucket compaired to DOOM III.


You may not be willing to pay $80, but I would, and I believe that many of us would. Enough to make up for the ones who won't

We are not kids waiting for the next version of Doom. World War Two IS popular with us, and WWII flight sims ARE popular with us as well. Our higher average age means we have the money to pay for what we want, and our joy sticks, throttles, rudder peddles, TrackIR's, and the system upgrades that we pay for show that we'll pay what we have to pay to get what we want.

Yes this is a small market, but it's made up of very dedicated customers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Now let me see - http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I bought Il2 39.95 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

the CD blew up in my drive couple months later

Oops bought another Il2 39.95 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

Oops then came Forgotten Battles 39.95 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

Oops then AEP for 29.95 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

Opps then along came PF 39.95 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

So my merged install has cost appx $150 US. I'd say that's pretty good price I've paid for what I've got. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

----------------

I realize Il2 isn't part of the merged install, but it was the bait to hook me as a big fish http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

bolillo_loco
05-27-2005, 09:10 PM
I do not care if they charge 500 dollars for a WW II flight sim it still will not make money like doom type games and it will be a drop in the bucket when compairing it to play station type platforms. I do not see how you could even consider these games popular. 1,000 people playing online is a very small community. I remember seeing 25,000 people online back in 1999 at the zone where I played eaw. only 50-100 people were in the eaw lobby. about another 200 were in the CFS lobby. thats .01% which means WWII flight sims are not popular. charging an arm and a leg for a new game will lose money because many people will not buy it. the fact that they are not popular is probably the reason why they are so cheap. its great that you would pay too much for this game and how you have already spent much more money that I am willing to pay, but dont expect everybody to think your way. I for one think that the games should be dumbed down for the sake of people who have 2 year old computers. I believe that more people would play if their system could run it. I have seen a couple of my online friends move on to other games because aep, fb, and a couple patches have made the game too demanding for their older computers. think about people who cannot afford to purchase a new computer every year and spend 40 dollars every three months on some expansion cd. you forget one thing, the fact that many ww II flight simmers are over the age of 30 means that they are more financially strapped because they have a wife, children (who play doom and other such games), morgage, and car payments. the kids you speak of that do not have the money to spend is very short sighted on your part because its their parents that are buying it for them. why do you think your local EB games store's inventory is 80% play station, xbox, and the like. wake up and realize that the game we play is very unpopular.

idonno
05-27-2005, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by bolillo_loco:
wake up and realize that the game we play is very unpopular.

What part of "yes this is a small market, but it's made up of very dedicated customers" don't you understand? It's dang sure NOT unpopular with us. Most of the people who wouldn't be willing to pay more for it, are people who aren't going to buy it anyway.

Let's say they charged $60 for a more complete PF instead of the $20 they charged for what we got, even if they lost 1/2 of their customers (and I don't believe they would) they would still make 50% more money. Now of course, it would have cost more money to produce a more complete add-on, but would it have cost 50% more? And many of the people who wouldn't be willing to pay three times as much for the incomplete PF we have now, would be willing to pay it if it were the sim that it could be.

SaQSoN
05-27-2005, 11:38 PM
Now of course, it would have cost more money to produce a more complete add-on, but would it have cost 50% more?
Sure not. It would cost 300% more.
Bolillo_loco is absolutely right in his conclusions.
The FS comunity is small, and the more expencieve you would make the game, the smaller it will become for this title.

269GA-Veltro
05-28-2005, 06:49 AM
Originally posted by SaQSoN:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Eagle Dynamics seemed to be able to regain control of LOMAC from Ubisoft. Flaming Cliffs has nothing to do with Ubi and can be ordered worldwide from their Russian site. Too bad Oleg can't come to a similar agreement with Ubi. The current arrangement isn't good for the long term health of the IL2 series.

The LOMAC was acually DROPPED by Ubi. It is a long story, but believe me, it is not in favour of ED. And the fact, that happened is actually not any good for ED, since Ubi was thier source for financing the work on their new projects. <span class="ev_code_yellow">If they will not find another publisher - they're doomed as a game developer.</span> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This would be very sad, and it's a shame that Ubi has dropped ED.....flaming Cliffs is a fantastic addon, their SU 25T is simple INCREDIBLE!!! I can't wait for the same work over the other aircrafts (Mig 29, SU 27, A 10 ecc. ecc.).

Ubi is a strong publisher, but not good for the sim....

I understand we are a little market

Aaron_GT
05-28-2005, 07:16 AM
A Hollywood-style WW2 aircombat movie would solve the problem of small interest

Maybe Ubi/1C should consider a tie in with the Tom Cruise film?

Aaron_GT
05-28-2005, 07:21 AM
I think ultimately (perhaps a few years from now) the empahsis might be on creating content packages for a single simulator infrastructure (perhaps open source). This would free people to develop content (planes, 3D objects, campaigns, servers to run games on, etc) rather than reinventing the wheel in terms of flight dynamics. To a certain extent is happens with the MSFS series, I can just see it happening more in the future. Already fighterops.com is buying the X-Plane engine for flight dynamics.

Adlerangriff
05-28-2005, 08:12 AM
How would someone who does not have 200 bucks know what a ton of money is?

There is no money in flight simming. We are lucky money is not the motivation for Maddox Games because we would not even have an original IL-2 if that was the case.

SaQSoN
05-28-2005, 11:52 AM
money is not the motivation for Maddox Games
Well, I'd rather say, it's not the only motivation. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Because, I've seen on my own eyes that they become ve-e-ery happy at the pay day. Including Oleg. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


it's a shame that Ubi has dropped ED.....flaming Cliffs is a fantastic addon
Well, it's rather a shame, that ED can only produce anddon with only one(!) plane in a course of a year.
In a publisher's eyes it's simply rediculous. Because, who, except us, hardcore aviation fans would by an addon with a single plane?

I, probably, should wrote the phrase, you highligted in the other way:

If ED will do games with so little content, with so many bugs and do it for so long time - they're doomed, because they never will find a publisher.

And that's, actually, applies to Oleg, or any other game developer in this world, as well.

Yog_Shoggoth
05-28-2005, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by idonno:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
not really up to Oleg guys. UBI has him by the ******. READ-----> <span class="ev_code_RED">CONTRACTUAL OBLIGATION</span>

sucks don't it? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

So you're saying UBI doesn't want to make money? Because I'm telling you, they would get a lot more of mine if they would finish what they start and charge me a lot more for it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't try to tell ubi how to make money. They are a highly succesful buisness in one of the most competitive markets around now and you... are not. Sims are WAY out of the public eye right now, and though you might be willing to pay that much, you are part of a milionth of a percentage point of the gamers around now. 20 people paying 100$ =/= 20,000 some dollars needed to publish such a patch.

nearmiss
05-28-2005, 03:27 PM
What do you think about this?

What if Oleg built his sim so that real neophytes could get into it?

In other words build it so that very very beginners could get started with it. Maybe have it like an arcade game with the ability to move to more difficult settings. I realize there are more difficult settings now, but the way you have to apply them is difficult in itself.

One of my friends just blew it off because he said it would take too long to learn. I don't agree, but hey after watching those interviews by Jay Leno on the streets of LA...I honestly believe there are a zillion dummies out there. The sad part is, they're mostly just apathetic.

What I'm thinking of might be described as feed the baby with a spoon version, until he learns to feed himself.

I think Oleg has done as much for combat flight simming as anyone. The online interest is very good, because he's given much attention to online play.

I'm an offline player and I realize we probably wouldn't even have the improved versions of the IL2 series, if the Online users were not treated well and provided a good sim experience.

I just don't think there is enough interest in Offline play alone to generate the interest that is enjoyed by so many.

Platypus_1.JaVA
05-28-2005, 04:22 PM
I don't like the idea that this game will only be for the rich ones. Like if you wanna be someone in the MSFS community, there are heaps of add-ons to buy. And all the extra hardware like complete flight decks of commercial airliners wich you can plug into your PC and fly away. Beautifull stuff but, be sure to have a big pack of gold with you when you go to the stores.

To let more people play this game, it shouldn't be too expensive and there should be LESS aircraft in it. I know, that this statement can anger people who's favorite WWII aircraft isn't in the game (yet) but, seriously, if you don't know anything about WWII aviation, you buy FB gold pack, PF and download the latest patch. Then you fire it up, to try your brand new joystick. THEN you go to the QMB. It says "quick" so, that's a perfect oppertunity to try something without too much consequence yes? And then... There are DOZENS of aircraft to choose from! Hell, you only wanted some quick fun. Now you gotta choose from, what, 60 aircraft?

This wide variety of aircaft will scare new players who don't know much about WWII aviation.

Maddox said that BoB will have fewer diffrent aircraft with more detail. I think that is a good decision. There'll probably an arcade funtion in it just like Il-2-FB-PF but, BoB would come really to its right when played at full hard settings. In both modes, DM will be great as well as effects and sounds (both area's where PF is currently behind anything remotely resembling competition)