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joseph92371
08-27-2005, 01:32 PM
Hello all,
I just tried to outdive a Zero in a Corsair and hit nearly 400 miles an hour in the dive pulled hard and the Zero turned inside of me and shot me? The Zero's are really fast in other areas as well. Is this right?
How can one boom and zoom when you can't zoom.

Thanks,
Todd

Darkwolff57
08-27-2005, 05:42 PM
Navy & Marine pilots were all advised early on to never try to outmanuver Zekes (Zeros), you could outdive or outclimb them but you could never best them in a turn. The reason is this, the Japanese sacraficed self-sealing fuel tanks & virtually any armour in favor of speed handling & increased ammo. The two best ways that I've personally found to down them (and this is in the F4-F Wildcats) is either to catch them head-on or to catch them from behind in a climb, the very fact that they're so light makes them bleed off speed rapidly in a climb.


The Pilot's Tenth Commandment:
"Thou shalt maintain thy airspeed lest the ground reach up & smite thee."

3.JG51_BigBear
08-27-2005, 06:31 PM
The AI for all planes accelerates in climbs and dives quicker than human controlled planes. Its a known bug and should probably be fixed in the next patch. Also, unless you have a significant speed advantage I would recommend flying in a straight line after an attack to gain speed an accelerate away from the zero. When its time to climb, do so gradually unless you have signicantly more energy than it does.

EPP_Gibbs
08-27-2005, 07:05 PM
AI Zero has pants climb so just use energy tactics. After the first pass use your speed to climb steeply and make a series of spiral climbs to drag the Zero up into a near stall as he tries to follow. While he's wallowing around, turn on him and let him have it. I've beaten multiple Ace Zeros like that in planes like the F4F, Buffalo, etc. In anything more capable, like a Spit, Zero's are dead meat.

I can't speak for good human pilots though. They shouldn't let you sucker them up into the fatal stall in the first place.

Tater-SW-
08-27-2005, 09:13 PM
Just about any US warplane should be able to outturn a zero, or at least not be outturned at over 300 mph. Certainly at 400mph.

There is a world of difference between getting in a turn fight, and the ability to outturn a given plane at a given altitude and speed. It's not remotely as black and white as "a zero will always outturn you" it depends on a number of conditions. At low speeds virtually all those conditions are always met, at very high speed none of the conditions are met, the the zeke gets outturned.

tater

joseph92371
08-27-2005, 10:06 PM
Thanks but something isn't jiving here. I just dove around 5000 feet at 400 mph plus and this AI zero was right there with me.
I am confused about the earlier thread about outclimbing the Zero. I thought the Zero was the better climber?

Thanks,
Todd

Darkwolff57
08-28-2005, 01:15 AM
Then it's something in the FM of the Zeke, at 500mph the Zeke should have begun to come apart, literally, especially when attempting to pull out of a dive at that speed. It should have torn the wings right off of it. They were never built to be a high speed dive bomber, they were built to be nimble. They simply didn't have the structural integrity to do it.

The Pilot's Tenth Commandment
"Thou shalt maintain thy airspeed lest the ground reach up & smite thee."

Bluedog72
08-28-2005, 03:29 AM
Which Zero?
There is a fair differance performance wise between an A6m2 and say an A6m5-b, particularly in dive ability.

joseph92371
08-28-2005, 07:31 AM
It was an A6M2.
Does anyone have any advice against the AI Zero's in qmb?

Todd

joseph92371
08-28-2005, 07:44 AM
Masatake Okumiya's "Zero", Chapter 1, "The Guadalcanal Campaign: Evaluation of American Warplanes" which reads:

"Our first reports on the new Grumman fighter stated that its design had been affected by a careful examination of a Zero fighter captured in the Aleutians in the spring of 1942. To some extent this appeared to be so, since the philosophy of weight-saving was carried throughout the Hellcat's structure to an extent without parallel in other American aircraft of the time.

"There is no doubt the new Hellcat was superior in every respect to the Zero except in the factors of maneuver-ability and range. It carried heavier armament, could outclimb and outdive the Zero, could fly at higher altitudes, and was well protected by self-sealing fuel tanks and armor plate. Like the Wildcat and Corsair, the new Grumman was armed with six 12.7-mm machine guns, but it carried a much greater load of ammunition than the other fighters."

He mentiones better climbs. I did some testing last night and the Zero's outclimbed me all the time in various situations. I believe the Zero is a ufo. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Not complaining- just wondering.

joseph92371
08-28-2005, 07:47 AM
"Therein lies one of the big problems in PF, the Zero doesn't seem to suffer maneuverability problems at high speeds. One of McGuire's axioms was to "keep your speed above 300 mph" when battling a Zeke because of its well known tendency for aileron forces to heavy-up at high speeds limiting its agility. The Zero seems equally agile at high and low speeds. It seems more of a problem with the Zero modeling than with the Hellcat.""

Quote from spectre?
this sums it up for me. On to the European theatre.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifTodd

JFC_Rautaristi
08-28-2005, 09:17 AM
just did some testing and i found out that when i dived in A6M2 over 300mph my plane was shaking and had very poor elevator responce... And when i pulled up i lost my wings. In A6M5b i survived but it was sluggish. I also tried diving away from a A6M2 in F4U and noticed the A6M didn't really follow me in the dive... It waited until i pulled up and got on my tail that way.

Dtools4fools
08-28-2005, 10:27 AM
joseph92371,

to see the other side of the picture why don't take up a Zero for once. And do a dive...
My A6M2 started falling apart at around 630km/h. And that was a steady dive, not while pulling out of it.
Later models might last a bit longer, haven't tried yet, but the Hellcat was around 800km/h (or a bit more?) when it started falling apart.

Cpt_Jack
08-28-2005, 12:08 PM
I think the point here is that the zero you are flying and the AI zeros will behave differently. This last patch was supposed to equalize things by making the AI and player's flight models the same. Obviously, it didn't. I play almost exclusively offline, and fly against Zeros all the time in QMB. The AI zeros do have an advantage, and can follow you down pretty far in a fast dive. Both A6M2 Zeros and Oscars have stayed right on my tail in a split-S dive thousands of feet down. This is true for the Wildcat, Hellcat, and Corsair. Naturally, though, if you try to follow a Navy plane down in a Zero like this, you can't. In real life, doing a steep dive in a US Navy plane while turning or augering to the right was even better, because the torque of the Zero's engine added to the sluggishness of the ailerons. I don't think this is modelled well for the AI planes in the game either. If they can't come closer to equalizing the AI and player's aircraft, I will be greatly disappointed, because otherwise this is a great PTO sim. Also, if they can't do it by now in this game, what makes anyone sure they can do it for BoB, or any subsequent sim?

joseph92371
08-28-2005, 12:38 PM
I agree Cap Jack.

It seems to me in qmb the only time one should attack a zero in a hellcat is if they are higher and can run on them and leave. Otherwise it turns into a run in which they are very close the whole time. It seems that the only way one could boom and zoom them is if they come in with a higher energy state. Otherwise the Zero will eat your lunch. Oh well. I will just practice my carrier landings. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Sorry about all the posts but am trying to figure out what is up with the Zero.
Happy flying- I mean er running.

Hoarmurath
08-28-2005, 12:39 PM
I have absolutely no problem shooting down zeros in QMB...

If you listen at the guys who posted advices here, there will be two results :

- you will get shot down just as often.

- You will believe zero is overmodelled.

It is not. Diving with a zero close to your tail isn't a magical solution to leave him far behind you, if you let the zero come that close, you did a big mistake. Having a dive advantage isn't what you believe it is.

Turning at any point when trying to extend from a zero is a big mistake, it will turn inside you and catch you every time. Fly straight. If you think that flying at a high speed and maneuvering will guarantee you safety from a zero, you make another mistake. It will bleed its speed, then outmaneuver you. Don't try to turn with them, whatever the speed.

Hit and run is what you should be using.

TeaWagon
08-28-2005, 01:45 PM
€œAn indicated airspeed never less than 250 mph in combat is good life insurance.€ - Top U.S. Ace - Major Richard Bong (40 Kills) 49th Fighter Group, flying the P-38 Lightning

I have spent a lot of time both flying the Zero against American planes and flying various American planes against the Zero, so I think I can comment with some knowledge here (as it applies to this simulator).

Your problem is this. The A6M2's high speed controls may be sluggish and its terminal dive speed unimpressive, but there is more to this than meets the eye.

I think the AI is still operating with a different flight model irregardless of what Oleg and company say, and from what I've seen others believe that as well.

Anyway... While the Zero may not be able to dive at high speeds or respond quickly at high speeds, it doesn't accelerate very fast in a dive either. What any experienced Zero pilot learns is that when you have a serious altitude advantage and will dive at least 2,000 feet to bounce the American plane, that you should reduce throttle or cut it completely before you dive.

That way, you will not accelerate too quickly in the dive, meaning you'll still be at high speed by the bottom of the dive but not at your terminal dive speed and not at such a speed that you cannot control the plane quickly enough to engage the enemy.

Where often enough pilots talk about not bleeding off too much energy in a fight, they forget to mention that with types that have very real weaknesses at high speeds, getting too much speed may be just as bad.

To add a personal twist to the point I am trying to make, my great uncle was a Corsair pilot in the War. He said there was a Zero on his tail once, and he just couldn't shake him. He said over the intercom his squadron leader said "Dive for the deck and pull out at 600!" (He meant 600 feet) ... So he did this, and when he pulled out and leveled off, he looked behind him... The Zero was still there, but it went straight into the sea, never pulling up.

More likely than not the Zero had compressed so badly in the dive that the pilot could no longer controlled it, and thus this was his "final dive" ... There were other accounts of the same thing happening to kamikaze pilots, and Saburo Sakai himself said he taught them not to dive at too steep an angle for fear of compressing and losing control of the plane.

What you need to do when flying the Hellcat is, if there is a Zero on your tail and you need to escape, is to dive steep down for the deck and gently pull up... Level off, and then start a high-speed, low-angle climb. If you climb too steeply (and thus at too low an airspeed) the Zero will catch you because their powerloading and low speed climb rate is excellent.

So, by using a low-angle, high-speed climb.. You may not necessarily be "outclimbing him" in the sense that you'll reach altitude the fastest (do research on the ideal climb speed of your AC for that) but you will in effect be escaping him by running away while climbing, maximizing lateral distance traveled (thus escape) rather than altitude achieved by time.

The FW-190 is another good type to practice this with against planes like the Spitfire.

Hellcat / Zero match-up is much the same.

Do you understand? Give it a shot and tell me what you think.

Dtools4fools
08-28-2005, 06:29 PM
I just flew the FW 190 for the first time this afternoon (offline). Against some LAgg 3. At first I was in big trouble, even had the impression that those Laggs were faster, climb better etc. Well found out what TeaWagon just described: Full speed (nad it takes some time to reach fast speed) shallow fast climbs and I got back in advantage situation. Then come in fast, try to hit and fast shallow climb away. No turning. Suddenly I had the initative and Lagg had no chance.

Same works for me when using P-39 against Zero.

Regarding dive speed I did a few dives this afternoon as well to check speeds. Started off at 10'000m. Early Zero starts falling apart at around 630 later ones around 760. Hellcats, Wildcats and Corsairs around 830-850. But to reach those speeds you will have to dive for quite a while, maybe 5000m or so. Certainly not in 1000-3000m dives.
If you and Zero behind you have about same speed and you try to dive away it will take some time until you can put distance inbetween.
Saburo describes the Wildcat attacks over Guadalcanal as them diving in at already fast speed, trying to get a shot and then - no matter if they are hitting or not - continue high speed dive until enough distance. Then climb again and repreat.
No manouvering.
****

Grey_Mouser67
08-28-2005, 08:31 PM
AI is messed up in this sim...especially in dive and climb. In real life, the A6M5 was given a thicker skin and more powerful engine so it could dive slightly better than the A6M2 but only a bit....they Japanese planes should be the worst diving aircraft in the sim except for a Soviet model or two maybe...and that is a big maybe.

I've had a similar experience...the AI can still do bat manuevers.

Case in point...other night, I was flying P-40E vs Ki-43's set at ace...I've never seen bat manuevers like that before...rate of roll approached jet like proportions...I'd hit them and they spin wildly recover, spin and recover etc...it was like they were stalling or spinning out of control like the average AI's but then recover...made them UFO like....I figured I better check out the Ki...it have a very slow rate of roll for me... I sure hope Oleg addresses this one.

In terms of climb...keep in mind speed is a big, important variable. I suspect a Zero will outclimb you in a slow stall climb, but a hellcat should win in a high speed climb...same principle with a Fw 190A4 and a Spitfire Mk V.

Dtools4fools
08-29-2005, 01:11 PM
Early war japanese airplanes are the worst divers in this game.
A6M5 is better than M2, but still slower than ANY American plane.
I do not know what the difference between M2 and M5 should be in speed exactly. Do you have data?

Ki-43 is one of the most manouverable planes and ace AI will go to the edge of turn radius.
Even me, a very average pilot I think, can outmanouver American planes in a Ki-43. Myabe that's why I like this plane... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
How fast are you closing in? Coming in with way more speed at a much slower Ki-43 will result in a very sharp turn seen from the P-40.
Saved a track?

Maybe Ai is porked, but I did not pragram it so I don't know.
****