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F19_Olli72
04-03-2005, 01:10 PM
In real life that is... i just watched "Wings of the Luftwaffe" about Marseille. A squadmate writes in a letter: "He can shoot like a young god. Above all, he can do what very few can do; shoot confidently in a curve."

Another squadmate of his (cant remember the name its kinda blurry sound too but last name sounded like Kerner or something) said that to be successful in shooting in a curve you must master it completely 100%. Also most, almost 100% of Marseilles kills were shot in a curve (my guess is he means turnfight?) Also notice i didnt quote Kerner(?) since i didnt really catch all he said but it was something similar (he used the term 100% a lot).

So next time luftwaffle pilots say its n00bish to turnfight at least i can say Marseilles squadmates firmly disagrees! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Hristos
04-03-2005, 01:14 PM
Turnfight is n00bish. There :P

jugent
04-03-2005, 01:58 PM
Yes turnfighting is more difficult than B&Z if you sit in a F4F.
But
Dont draw any deep comparisons between this game and the real airwar between axis allies. The German Defense was destroyed by the overwhelming number superiority of the allies. Many of their maschines was at least as good as the allies, some of them where better.
They where leading the development of aircrafts, tanks and submarines. They got highly skilled engineers.
If the faults that occur in Me Fw had occured in real life, they would been corrected fast.
Like the oilsmeared windshield in the Me-109, like the bad guns in Fw etc etc.

Dont get me wrong, I think that it was a blessing that Nazi-germany was defeated, but the Nazi-society would have crashed by itself because of the twisted grounds it was based on, like the "communist-society" did. No furter comparisons.

Hristos
04-03-2005, 02:11 PM
OK, seriously now.

Turnfighting is noobish as performed by many here. Endless take off-turnfight-die-respawn routine. You may disagree, but I see no skill in taking a good turner up, jumping into a furball, kill one, maybe two, only to die seconds later.

I see no skill in calling worse turning planes cowardly while you hold the turning advantage yourself. I see no skill never thinking about RTBing, but endless turning as long as your plane has wind under wings, no matter if even on fire. I really fail to see where is the skill in following planes to their bases and turnfighting inside enemy AAA and dying a miserable virtual death.

However !

Constant successful turnfighting and landing your sorties is a true skill. If you turnfight and live to tell about it, you are a true master. That IS harder than BnZ. I cannot do it. I have seen only one pilot in 6 years I fly these sims who flew like that.

F19_Olli72
04-03-2005, 02:17 PM
Jugent,yeah i know FB is different from real life.

I just posted some info on turnfighting from real luftwaffe pilots, which i found interesting. Wasnt meant as a discussion about technical/strategic points of Axis/Allies.

Of the 'realism' in FB/PF you forget that there was also some faults that isnt modelled. Spontaneous combustion of 109 engines were fairly common for example, at least i get that impression from Heinz Knokes book. Also Marseille (on the topic) died because engine failiure.

Hristos, tbh what your describing isnt turnfighting. Your describing stupidity. All the things you described i see blue pilots doing too regularly on GG. So really, what your saying is: "stupidity is n00bish"?

FatBoyHK
04-03-2005, 02:27 PM
with the 4.0 FM, I think TnB will be much harder.... let wait and see http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hristos
04-03-2005, 03:00 PM
So, we may finally agree.

If two players consistently land their sorties, one of them pure BnZ, the other one pure TnB, I'd say that the TnB guy has a more difficult time. You can outturn one guy or two, but you can't outturn ten. Ten you can outrun though, just as you can outrun one.

In TnB, you usually lock yourself and the enemy into a fight where only one can get out. You lose a large part of your SA and are wasting E. A recipee for disaster, if you ask me.

Stiglr
04-03-2005, 03:04 PM
Well, to say that Marseille "shot in a curve" is not really to understand what he was doing.

He most certainly was a B&Zer, but was master of deflection, tracking shooting. That is, he could dive in on a plane, turn for a short time to get lead for a shot (often when the target was obscured by the nose of his plane) and kill it with the shortest of bursts.

There is a legend of how Marseille would encounter enemy who would form a Lufberry circle in defense... he could dive down on the circle, get a kill, recover below the ring and climb back up on a plane on the other side of the circle and get a kill there, too. If that's true, it was definitely deflection shooting.... but more in the vertical than in the horizontal.

Blackdog5555
04-03-2005, 03:25 PM
I agree that "shooting in a curve is ambiguious. Most fighters would endeavour to sneak up behind an e/a for a shooting solution while in a stable plane. Better pilots would /could gun on the move as Stiglr described. not T&B..but, run and gun

Tsoman
04-03-2005, 03:31 PM
il2 elitism circle jerk! hooray!

I've been playing this game for 3 years, and flight sims in general for many more, and I'm not ashamed to admit that I fly in the manner that many of you refer to as "noobish." I get into turn fights and don't really care all that much about surviving. I mainly want to have fun. Bases 5 km apart and 20 planes dogfighting and vulching w/ non-historical planeset. I do, however enjoy flying with the difficult settings.

For those of you who have illusions of grandeur and the sound of 1,000 men marching in the back of your heads, have fun bashing the "noobs"

hehe just kidding. see you all online! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif nothing against you guys. just get rid of the tall white horse you ride on.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

stathem
04-03-2005, 03:34 PM
But if you are talking about Marsaille, you are wrong. He was a true TnBer. I've seen him variously described as popping flaps, even dropping gear, stuff no other 109 pilot would even dream of, burning E for fun. Of course he had his wingmen sat topside in case he got in trouble.

Yes he broke the Luftberry circles in the manner Stiglr descibes, but that shows his mastery of def. shooting, not that he was (solely) a BnZer. I'm sure he used that tactic as well, when appropriate.

IMO he fought the 109 as it sometimes flown in this sim, as an edge of the stall knife fighter. Not a healthy option if you haven't got a refly button. Respect to his skill and dedication.

EURO_Snoopy
04-03-2005, 03:39 PM
yank and bank, most of us been doing that since our teens

BuzzU
04-03-2005, 03:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hristos:
OK, seriously now.

Turnfighting is noobish as performed by many here. Endless take off-turnfight-die-respawn routine. You may disagree, but I see no skill in taking a good turner up, jumping into a furball, kill one, maybe two, only to die seconds later.

I see no skill in calling worse turning planes cowardly while you hold the turning advantage yourself. I see no skill never thinking about RTBing, but endless turning as long as your plane has wind under wings, no matter if even on fire. I really fail to see where is the skill in following planes to their bases and turnfighting inside enemy AAA and dying a miserable virtual death.

However !

Constant successful turnfighting and landing your sorties is a true skill. If you turnfight and live to tell about it, you are a true master. That IS harder than BnZ. I cannot do it. I have seen only one pilot in 6 years I fly these sims who flew like that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm curious about you stats on the WC server. You have 32 sorties. No crashes, no killed in action, no bail outs, and only 10 landings. How do you do that? Do you just quit while flying?

pourshot
04-03-2005, 05:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hristos:
OK, seriously now.

Turnfighting is noobish as performed by many here. Endless take off-turnfight-die-respawn routine. You may disagree, but I see no skill in taking a good turner up, jumping into a furball, kill one, maybe two, only to die seconds later.

I see no skill in calling worse turning planes cowardly while you hold the turning advantage yourself. I see no skill never thinking about RTBing, but endless turning as long as your plane has wind under wings, no matter if even on fire. I really fail to see where is the skill in following planes to their bases and turnfighting inside enemy AAA and dying a miserable virtual death.

However !

Constant successful turnfighting and landing your sorties is a true skill. If you turnfight and live to tell about it, you are a true master. That IS harder than BnZ. I cannot do it. I have seen only one pilot in 6 years I fly these sims who flew like that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm curious about you stats on the WC server. You have 32 sorties. No crashes, no killed in action, no bail outs, and only 10 landings. How do you do that? Do you just quit while flying? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HAHA noob

Bearcat99
04-03-2005, 05:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Well, to say that Marseille "shot in a curve" is not really to understand what he was doing.

He most certainly was a B&Zer, but was master of deflection, tracking shooting. That is, he could dive in on a plane, turn for a short time to get lead for a shot (often when the target was obscured by the nose of his plane) and kill it with the shortest of bursts.

There is a legend of how Marseille would encounter enemy who would form a Lufberry circle in defense... he could dive down on the circle, get a kill, recover below the ring and climb back up on a plane on the other side of the circle and get a kill there, too. If that's true, it was definitely deflection shooting.... but more in the vertical than in the horizontal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stig you hiut the nail squarely on the head.... The gist of the original posters quote has less to do with the skill of T B vs B&Z as it does with the one skill that is essential to survival in any combat situation virtual or otherwise where shooting is required and that is the defelction shot. The two tactics vary depending on the plane.. but if you can master the deflection shot within any 0-90 arc then you will more than likely outlive any opponent using either tactic. B&Z is a waste if you cant make the shot.... the same with the T&B... if you cant take advantage of that split second window in the scissor.... it's all over.

RedDeth
04-03-2005, 05:39 PM
a portion of not landing and not crashing but flying more planes in WC is that when the map changes you get teleported to the new map.

but i see your point buzzu. thats a high portion of quiting game and not landing or dying.

some people in warclouds if getting chased either just quit the game or dive into a cloud and quit. it happened to me ALL the time over last couple months. ive only played a short couple jaunts since stats are reset a week ago .

blakduk
04-03-2005, 06:51 PM
The thing to be wary of is 'Target Fixation'!
Most people when they imagine aerial warfare is picturing dogfighting as romanticised by writers of ww1- Manfred Von Richthofen challenged this notion himself when he was famously quoted when asked about the art of dogfighting as having replied 'You line up your target and shoot him down, all the rest is rubbish' (I cant find the exact quote but that was the basis of it).
Prior to ww2 many in the RAF believed maneuvorability was the most important factor, hence the tactics employed early on and the reliance on machinary like the Gladiator. Very quickly they learned through brutal experience that situational awareness and tactics were vital, and the key ingredient is SPEED!
If you dont have it, you are a butterfly waiting for a crow.

BuzzU
04-03-2005, 08:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
a portion of not landing and not crashing but flying more planes in WC is that when the map changes you get teleported to the new map.

but i see your point buzzu. thats a high portion of quiting game and not landing or dying.

some people in warclouds if getting chased either just quit the game or dive into a cloud and quit. it happened to me ALL the time over last couple months. ive only played a short couple jaunts since stats are reset a week ago . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Exactly.

Stiglr
04-03-2005, 08:40 PM
Well, to possibly expand the range of this discussion:

I will pretty much say there is something to the notion that turnfighting is "more difficult" physically, than boom and zooming. You have to do more maneuvers, do them harder, and physically tax yourself more than if you're a classic "Hartman" flier, who minimizes risk to himself, attacks with the advantage, hangs back or leaves with a disadvantage, and gets more than his share of "easy" kills.

Now; that doesn't make the T&Ber a "better pilot" in my eyes. Any more than it's preferable to do anything "the hard way" just so you can say you did it that way. Witness Hartmann: 352 kills flying mostly B&Z. I rest my case.

I prefer to fly the "smart way"; using alt, situational awareness and less maneuvering effort to get a kill. Now, stuff will happen that will likely see you in a T&B fight every now and then...that's when it's good to have some skills in that department to get you out of trouble when you have to knifefight your way out of a phone booth.

ImpStarDuece
04-03-2005, 09:02 PM
I don't think that either style is 'easier' & than the other. What each of them require is different abilities and thinking.

To me it requires much more discipline and intelligence to fly effective B'n'Z. You hane to have the patience to take your ship up above the normal flight altitudes. Once you have invested the time climbing to 4,5 or 6 thousand meters then you start to care a little more about the sortie as well. Then you have to peer out of your cockpit and actually find your enemy, position yourself correctly, set up the right altitude and angle for the run, scream in at high velocity and not miss the shot.

Turners see the boomers as getting wasy kills because they had to do little or no knife fighting to get the shot. What they don't normally see is the 5 minutes of climb, set up and manouevering that go into a single run with a tiny little firing window, not to mention the effort of an entire sortie.

Flying in a boomer I become more aware of relative altitudes, attitudes and speed of my opponents. Flying in 'full switch' servers you start to take notice of things like the position of the sun and likely enemy points of ingre/egress. Stuff that a lot of low level pilots rarely think about.

Hristos
04-03-2005, 09:25 PM
FDB Warclouds stats are not all too accurate. Sometimes they lose track of things - lost kills, lost crashes, lost bailouts, lost landings.

You can read about it in www.war-clouds.net (http://www.war-clouds.net) forums.

One can see there are sorties with credited kills, but when you click that same sortie, no kill is listed. Similar for landings. Sometimes it says disconnected from the game, while it was first land, then disconnect.

Right now disconnect count as kills/deaths though. At least from my experience. On two occassions, I've damaged a plane. It didn't leave the fight, but was staying there, usually trying to turn or catch me. Once without chance to survive, the player disconnected (both times by same squad, go figure). Well, I was credited with kill both times (Enemy aircraft destroyed).

No, I don't cheat. Not that I didn't want to sometimes, but in the heat of the action I never had enough time to think about it. When bullets start flying, it is usually all over. Heart pounding until crash, I think of "disconnect" all too late. Besides, I think the kills is still awarded and you get "shot down" in your stats when you disconnect after being pinged (as in Aces high, for example).

The one time "missing in action" was after I lost my engine in a collision against some Spit. He died, I bailed out over enemy territory. Yet, in the end he was awared the kill.

Pilot kills are not recorded. If you kill the enemy pilot, he gets deathkicked immediately and your kill won't show in stats for some reason.

Also...

With limited number of Warclouds players, I'm sure somebody would record a track or similar of me disconnecting. Warclouds admins ban people after such actions. I know because I've sent a track once. So, before insinuating, here's a proposition - record your sorties. If anyone has recorded me disconnecting, he may contact Warclouds admins, as said before.

So, let me make it clear. If you ever record me disconnecting, you can present that to Warclouds admins and on this board. Especially goes for AFJ types on one of Mastiff's Hristo hunts :-P

Besides, in a Dora you don't have to worry much, as the plane is superior to all opposition. It can't kill much , but it keeps you alive http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

All I can promise that I look forward to new MG151/20. No more assists in Dora http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

P.S.:
Total kills in all planes I've flown this tour is 32 (17+13+1+1). Yet, only 26 kills are listed. If you then analyze kills from listed sorties, total is 19 ! And then, if you go read through each sortie, I'm sure it would be even less. But don't worry, my maximum is somewhere about 50 (personal best from Aces High). Then somebody will nail me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BaldieJr
04-03-2005, 09:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tsoman:
il2 elitism circle jerk! hooray!

I've been playing this game for 3 years, and flight sims in general for many more, and I'm not ashamed to admit that I fly in the manner that many of you refer to as "noobish." I get into turn fights and don't really care all that much about surviving. I mainly want to have fun. Bases 5 km apart and 20 planes dogfighting and vulching w/ non-historical planeset. I do, however enjoy flying with the difficult settings.

For those of you who have illusions of grandeur and the sound of 1,000 men marching in the back of your heads, have fun bashing the "noobs"

hehe just kidding. see you all online! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif nothing against you guys. just get rid of the tall white horse you ride on.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Best post evar.

I swear, Oleg is part of some experiment to attract only those geeks that selective breeding can create. What the russians plan to do with this breed of uberfreaks is beyond me. Its ****ed scary though.

faustnik
04-03-2005, 09:32 PM
I will certainly agree that it is harder to stay alive turnfighting than by using good B&Z tactics. I guess that's where the "burn" part of "turn & burn" comes from.

EiZ0N
04-03-2005, 09:50 PM
Eh! I find it pretty disgraceful that people just...disconnect...when they are about to die. What complete losers

Hristos
04-03-2005, 11:07 PM
In Aces High there was a policy of awarding kills when players disconnect.

More about it here:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=3591074592

Some smart mod moved it from ORR to GD http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.

If only I had a dime every time a Spit type came to Blue base and disconnected when mortally hit. I'd buy myself a Jug scale model http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Badsight.
04-03-2005, 11:20 PM
E-Fighting is the most technical form of Air Combat of them all

sure you need accuracy for BnZ

sure you need to be well praticed to Turn Fight effectivly

but experience shows the E-Fighting is more dominant & more requireing of skill that either of the other 2 forms

my kung fu is stonger than yours basically

ImpStarDuece
04-03-2005, 11:25 PM
*Insert badly dubbed, portly, Chinese, maniacal kung fu master here*

Bah!

I laugh at your E style!

Hahahaha ha ha h a ha ha a a ah aha ha
ah


ha

My 'crash on takeoff' style means that I never get beaten or shot down. Ever! I am invincible!


HA ha ha ha ha ha aa a ah hah aha ahs cough, cough wheeze.

*End of bad dubbing*

Hristos
04-03-2005, 11:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
E-Fighting is the most technical form of Air Combat of them all

sure you need accuracy for BnZ

sure you need to be well praticed to Turn Fight effectivly

but experience shows the E-Fighting is more dominant & more requireing of skill that either of the other 2 forms

my kung fu is stonger than yours basically <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Definitely.

Also the most dangerous tactic to the one who uses it. It is all to easy to surprise a turnfighter, much easier than to surprise a TnBer.

It works miracles in 1 on 1 though and is most preferred by people winning duels.

I started my virtual flying in Warbirds H2H ladder in 1999. All E fighting. After I transitioned to arena, I tried to replicate it. Well, I was dying a miserable death on top of my loops when anyone could dive and pick me off. Over the years, I dumped any possible 1 on 1 skills I had and went to pure hit'n'run.

When E fighting in the arena, you better have wingmen on the lookout above you.

TnB or E fighting, or even BnZ skill is nice, but in server like Warclouds, I'd rate SA, patience and simply cunning as more important.

To illustrate, just yesterday I damaged a P-39. With proper MG151/20 he'd be a gonner. He followed me waaaay off where the action was, missing half elevator and leaking oil. I was in a Dora and could do as I liked - turnfight, E fight or BnZ him. I chose to extend until he loses his engine. Too many times I've done the opposite http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. And you bet I was right, because he had called for help. Soon after, a P51 dove on me while I was slowly dragging the P39 in circles. In a place away from any action. After series of jinks, I still had speed and alt to run away from the P51. The P39 disconnected. I was awarded the kill. If anyone is interested, I have the track.

Hristos
04-03-2005, 11:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
a portion of not landing and not crashing but flying more planes in WC is that when the map changes you get teleported to the new map.

but i see your point buzzu. thats a high portion of quiting game and not landing or dying.

some people in warclouds if getting chased either just quit the game or dive into a cloud and quit. it happened to me ALL the time over last couple months. ive only played a short couple jaunts since stats are reset a week ago . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, maybe you want to check =AFJ= stats as well, while making similar assumptions ?
http://free-kc.t-com.hr/nino/cin01.jpg

Sniper62_267
04-04-2005, 05:15 AM
yeah I'm interted in that track you have with that p39 Hristos

FatBoyHK
04-04-2005, 05:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hristos:
Hmm, maybe you want to check =AFJ= stats as well, while making similar assumptions ?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hristos, RedDeth wasn't making any assumption, certainly not on you. He is just describing his experience on warclouds, which is quite accurate.

and pls don't try to start a verbal fight every day in this forum, this mentially won't help you... build your ego elsewhere.

Hristos
04-04-2005, 06:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sniper62_267:
yeah I'm interted in that track you have with that p39 Hristos <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rgr, I'll be home in 3 hrs and will upload and post a link.

Hristos
04-04-2005, 06:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hristos:
Hmm, maybe you want to check =AFJ= stats as well, while making similar assumptions ?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hristos, RedDeth wasn't making any assumption, certainly not on you. He is just describing his experience on warclouds, which is quite accurate.

and pls don't try to start a verbal fight every day in this forum, this mentially won't help you... build your ego elsewhere. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah, my ego is alredy so bloated it needs no building http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Can't we just be enemies ?

BBB_Hyperion
04-04-2005, 06:57 AM
http://www.butcherbirds.de/hypesstorage/g-kraft.jpg

Here a repost that shows wwii plane limits for turns and g load/bank angle etc.

Where "Grenze der Schießgenauigkeit für erfahrene Piloten" is the limit for experienced Pilots for effective aiming.

"Pilot wird schwarz vor den Augen" is Blackout

"Durchschnittliche Bruch- und Belastungsgrenze der Jagdflugzeuge im Zweiten Weltkrieg" average structural g-load limits for WWII fighterplanes.

I still think its easier to Turn&Burn cause you have more time to track the target than pure B&Z where you have only seconds that decide if succesfull or not. ( In this Sim of course lag or lost packets have to be seen irl to apply same conditions http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

So T&B is easier cause you have more room for errors . Speaking of planes that are about equal in performance. When this is not the case B&Z or T&B is a one time option only when other plane has better performance or repeat until boring when it has much weaker appearence .) (1vs1 not team)

Shooting under high deflection can be applied in both methods so nothing which is bound to any of the methods itself.

Deflection shooting is quite complex task when on high speed but you would reduce gload to lower levels for this case that it can be compared to higher g deflection shoots at lower speeds.

So doesnt matter if T&B or B&Z deflection shooting is difficult special in this sim cause pilot head cant move and revi mounting and deflection angles are not what they should be on some planes.

In general aiming is too accurate but that will change .)

Jumoschwanz
04-04-2005, 07:01 AM
Change the title of this post to "Which is more difficult, T&B or Z&B?"

This is more nuetral and will make for less argumentive replies, unless you are just trolling......

That said, Any art is equal to any other. It is really hard to make a great shot zooming through a furball at 500 to 800 km/hr, especially when you are flying with the cockpit on. And it is really tough to fly around in a furball and stay alive for long.

So there is really no point to be made by this post at all.

You can do better in Z&B, and T&B if you learn good gunnery. When you can see, set-up and make shots from zero to a full ninety degrees deflection then you will at least double your effectiveness over someone who just shoots while following a target in a straight line or curve.

Making shots at foes you are not following at all is the art to practice. Even in a furball, instead of trying to get on someone's tail, now you don't have to turn as hard or as much because now you can set up a 90 degree shot and save yourself from turning that 90 or more degrees this works for T&B and z&b, do you see the light?

stubby
04-04-2005, 07:03 AM
"So next time luftwaffle pilots say its n00bish to turnfight at least i can say Marseilles squadmates firmly disagrees!"

I've been flying online for years and I've never heard any LW flyer say such a thing. If I did hear it, I would just assume the guy has some sour grapes cuz he got smoked.

The bigger question is what do you value in online play? Points, survival, rtb? I know one simple fact of furballin' on any df server. If you turn fight, you will die routinely - it's that simple. Sure you might take out a few planes but you'll die routinely. For me, a guy that has a one to one ratio between planes destroy vs bieng killed tells it all. what's more impressive is a guy that has a oddles of kills but RTBs routinely. A BnZer might not score kills in every sortie but he's more likely to RTB. I respect a flyer that RTBs routinely vs a guy that dies routinely even if the RTBer isn't racking up epic numbers. Which takes more skill? I think the debate is more philosphical than skill. Both require skill in their own regards but it's the context that's more relevant.

JG54_Arnie
04-04-2005, 07:04 AM
Maybe in RL BnZ was also considered easier because often the target would not notice the attacker untill lead started hitting his plane? Thus flying in an easier to hit flightpath, or allowing the attacker to position himself on the target's six properly before opening fire.

In game I find BnZ pretty nasty sometimes as dots dissappear completely sometimes. But I'm not complaining, adds to the challange. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

FatBoyHK
04-04-2005, 08:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hristos:
Nah, my ego is alredy so bloated it needs no building http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Can't we just be enemies ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You behave just like you idol, skilled but arrogant, didn't win too much respect from the opposite side of the pitch.

remember this is a game and we play it for fun, there are some blue players that I really respect.

don't let your ego consumes you.

Hristos
04-04-2005, 09:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sniper62_267:
yeah I'm interted in that track you have with that p39 Hristos <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's the track (http://free-kc.t-com.hr/nino/p39long&disco.ntrk).

Boring, if you ask me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

LilHorse
04-04-2005, 10:01 AM
As I understand it, Marseille was well aware of the tactical doctrine laid down by Molders et al. But he felt that it didn't do him any good in the ultra clear desert skies of N. Africa. He felt there was no way to achieve surprise since you could see planes in the dry, clear desert air much, much farther away than elsewhere. And there was very rarely any clouds and when there was there was very few.

For him he felt that he had to make himself invisible by manuevering out of the field of vision of his opponants. So he pushed the 109 to the limits of it's manueverability.