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View Full Version : So will Ai actually be fixed, Oleg? SOMEONE said you would do this.



SeaFireLIV
03-25-2006, 07:19 PM
Someone on the forum said that you, Oleg, knew about the AI problem in 4.04 and would be correcting this in the next Patch...

After a couple of weeks of reflection, it occurs to me that this someone supplied no evidence at all.

So I ask you, Oleg, will AI be returned to realistic performances? (at least like they were in 4.02 and 4.03?) Please put my (and some others) mind at rest.

Yes, I`m still waiting patiently and haven`t touched offline planes in campaign with 4.04...

And the guy who posted that oleg was going to fix the 4.04, can he actually produce a LINK to Oleg`s statement to this , please?

SeafireLIV out.

J_Weaver
03-25-2006, 07:52 PM
I don't find the 4.04 AI to be too bad. However, their ability to see 360 degrees and the negative G maneuvers especially in planes like the Hurri Mk.I and I-16 are annoying to say the least.

AKA_TAGERT
03-25-2006, 08:32 PM
wow

I never thougt I would live to see the day that the AI gets the same treatment as the FM. One group calls it the best AI to date, another group says it is the worst ever.

Sad thing is AI abilities is truly a personal judgment call, where as an FM is not in that we have real data to compare to.

VW-IceFire
03-25-2006, 08:34 PM
I still don't understand what the difference is. They behave just as unrealistically as before...

horseback
03-25-2006, 09:41 PM
Disagree. AI's primary function is to help 'immerse' the player, that is, to make 'realistic' a target or wingman as possible, within the limits of the aircraft the AI is flying.

That calls for appropriate awareness, tactics, speeds, marksmanship and maneuvers according to the skill level assigned for the aircraft. The enemy AI should exhibit some of the limitations of the aircraft they flew with the human failings of the men who flew them, and your 'wingmen' AI should be at least a bit supportive.

Instead, they're ALL out to screw the player.

At this time, the AI Aces and Veterans are making shots that would tax the talents of the offspring of Hans-Joachim Marseille & Annie Oakley, pulling zooms, dives and negative G maneuvers impossible for most experienced players (theoretically, someone has to have a rig so sweet that everything works to the proverbial gnat's @ss, and the skills to pull off most of these moves), and certainly rarely seen in combat, all without regard for such banalities as overheat, carburetion(flooding or starving the engine of fuel), blackout or redout, or the top speeds or terminal velocities of the 'aircraft' they're supposedly flying, and with a situational awareness previously known only to God Almighty.

All enemy aircraft seem to start moving around like a hummingbird on meth the moment you get within 100m of your convergence range (if you have any rounds left).

'Friendly' AI are more concerned with pursuing their enemy counterparts than tactics or their 'wingman's' safety to the point that they are at least as much a hazard to the player as the Average enemy AI. At best, they're stealing kills from him. At worst, they're colliding with him.

All AI seem to be expert at hiding behind your canopy framing until the last second.

Personally, I find it a real fun killer, and have gone back to 3.03m, so that I can complete my 2LittleDUCs campaign with a less porked P-51.

Frankly, I love the FMs of the 4.04m patch, but the AI are so execrable, I fly 4.04m solely for aerobatics and sight-seeing. If I want to be able to shoot something, I go to the 3.03m version.

cheers

horseback

DuxCorvan
03-26-2006, 06:15 AM
Many people find 4.04 AI excellent in that they are a harder rival and better skill-trainers for online gaming.

The problem is HOW they achieved being tougher rivals: they simply have passed all boundaries of cheating, and give offline pleyers, which look for historical recreation and immersion, the most annoying and frustrating of gameplay experiences.

If a human online player did only a few of the many incredible things you see the AI do in any offline mission, he would be immediatly kicked as a cheater.

Cheaters destroy fun for the others. That's valid also for AI cheaters. I know that AI needs a bit of cheating just to be a challenge-it's always been this way- but it shouldn't be as evident and cheeky: it wasn't necessary to convert them in TIE Fighters.

I don't find amusement in being the only guy with an apparently crippled plane in all WW2.

Somebody please fix this.

GregSM
03-26-2006, 06:55 AM
Dear Oleg,


Please do not degrade the AI without reason.


Cheers,


Greg

Trotzky
03-26-2006, 07:45 AM
I suggest, it's not about deterioring the AI abilities, she has learned a lot so far - remember AI (artificial imbecile) in original Il2? -, it's about senseless and stupid behavior like endless sequences of barrelrolls without any reason and nearly whitout bleedinging energy, snaprolls against ground or unrealistic negative G-maneuvres. Currently AI behaves simply sort of hectic - this appearance should be altered - but not it's abilities itself.

Sincerely, Trotzky

Tater-SW-
03-26-2006, 07:49 AM
Or other great AI features like attacking ground targets until your entire flight is destroyed by AAA, instead of 1 pass then RTB?

Or strafer bombers that attack in a line-astern formation instead of line abreast like they should (really great with parafrags since the lower, trailing planes then have to climb to avoid collision with the frags floating down).

That's the worst thing about the AI, IMO. The a-historical tactics they use for stuff liek ground attack.

tater

lowfighter
03-26-2006, 08:07 AM
I went back to 4.03. Having fun there till next patch http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

edit: I feel 4.04 introduced more AI vertical fighting, which is in principle very good and immersing, it's a big programming challenge though
and no surprise that it went rather bad altogether. I feel AI get better, with ups and downs but a clear tendency upwards.

AVG_WarHawk
03-26-2006, 08:55 AM
AI were fixed in 4.04m, no need to make anymore changes.

J_Weaver
03-26-2006, 09:49 AM
IMO the biggest problem with the ai is their FM. It seems reasonable to me that the ai flight model can't be as detailed as the players'. Perhaps due to the fact that it would be too much for the system to have to process? However, some basic thing should be modeled that apparently aren't. i.e. Hurri Mk.I and I-16's doing -G maneuvers.

However, one thing that I'll never understand is the ai's ability to make sniper shots in a head on pass, but their inability to make a simple eflection shot.

AKA_TAGERT
03-26-2006, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by J_Weaver:
IMO the biggest problem with the ai is their FM. It seems reasonable to me that the ai flight model can't be as detailed as the players'. Perhaps due to the fact that it would be too much for the system to have to process? However, some basic thing should be modeled that apparently aren't. i.e. Hurri Mk.I and I-16's doing -G maneuvers. Actully Oleg has said that the AI fly the same FM as the user when flying user planes. As for AI only planes, he has also said that those FM's are not that polished. Thus the only way you might see the AI do something think is strange is when they are flying the AI only planes due to the simplfied FMs, as for user planes, they have to abide by the same rules that we do.


Originally posted by J_Weaver:
However, one thing that I'll never understand is the ai's ability to make sniper shots in a head on pass, but their inability to make a simple eflection shot. Agreed, the AI's HO shots are amazing.. never HO an AI! On the other hand, they can not seem to be able to hit S from a direct six shot. Also note, that the AI's accuracy in shooting has nothing to do with thier flying aka FM.

lowfighter
03-26-2006, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:

Actully Oleg has said that the AI fly the same FM as the user when flying user planes. As for AI only planes, he has also said that those FM's are not that polished. Thus the only way you might see the AI do something think is strange is when they are flying the AI only planes due to the simplfied FMs, as for user planes, they have to abide by the same rules that we do.

[/QUOTE]

I think diferent AI AC have diferent degrees of madness after 4.04. But I guess we're all talking about standard "old" AC like Bf109 etc. For example I found P40 less mad than Bf109G2. The G2 does incredible flying, if you want to see the madness plainly chase one on the deck, he'll not be shy to do dives+rolls+turns at 50 meter altitude. You know, I can do that too, but then the whole reason I'm playing this game is gone...

one more thing: during years some WWII aviation movies were made. I failed to see in any of them such flying like the present AI does. Think of it, a move will try to get as much fight atmosphere as possible, however whatI saw was downright boring combat flying there. Why is that?

Ominae-
03-26-2006, 01:29 PM
I did not notice too much of a change, but its been awhile since I have last played.

The only thing that REALLY bothers me are the AI friendlies. They DONT cover you, no matter how many times you ask them too, not even good decoys http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

But I think that has been a problem for a while now, not so much a 'new thing'.

AKA_TAGERT
03-26-2006, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by lowfighter:
I think diferent AI AC have diferent degrees of madness after 4.04. But I guess we're all talking about standard "old" AC like Bf109 etc. For example I found P40 less mad than Bf109G2. The G2 does incredible flying, if you want to see the madness plainly chase one on the deck, he'll not be shy to do dives+rolls+turns at 50 meter altitude. You know, I can do that too, but then the whole reason I'm playing this game is gone...

one more thing: during years some WWII aviation movies were made. I failed to see in any of them such flying like the present AI does. Think of it, a move will try to get as much fight atmosphere as possible, however whatI saw was downright boring combat flying there. Why is that? Well nobody is saying the AI is perfect, No more than anyone is saying the FM is perfect. Hence the name simulation! All I was saying in that last post is that the AI flys the same FM we do. Now if you think simulating a plane is hard.. stop and think about how hard it is to simulate a pilot. FM stuff is EASY relitive to AI! EASY!

AVG_WarHawk
03-26-2006, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Ominae-:
I did not notice too much of a change, but its been awhile since I have last played.

The only thing that REALLY bothers me are the AI friendlies. They DONT cover you, no matter how many times you ask them too, not even good decoys http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

But I think that has been a problem for a while now, not so much a 'new thing'.

Your absolutely right! Not exactly sure when this began, possibly when Pathetic Fighter was released or shortly there after. Certainly needs to be addressed.

Bearcat99
03-26-2006, 10:02 PM
This AI is good no doubt.. and in many ways it is better than any of the previous AI. It is certainly more challenging. The AI takes evasive action and sometimes they a;lmost seem like live pilots. However it would appear that black outs are not modeled for AI.. it would also appear that AI can still see through clouds... although I have lost them on occasion... It would also almost seem as if CEM is not modeled for AI... unless they are damaged... no AI plane in flames should be trying to shoot anyone down.. the pilot should bail. Friendly AI still very very often either warn you too late.. or dont come to yopur aid when you call for them. They still dont drop all thier ordinance... they still follow you in for a landing.. even to the point of crashing into the ground.... they still seem to almost defy the laws of physics.. and I can still get them to overshoot pretty easily....

lowfighter
03-27-2006, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Now if you think simulating a plane is hard.. stop and think about how hard it is to simulate a pilot. FM stuff is EASY relitive to AI! EASY!

Fully agree with this Tagert, after all AI means artificial inteligence, which is clearly the most difficult to program in any game/sim...

We're discussing though relative AI behaviour as it changes from patch to patch. Starting 4.01 a series of changes occured and the thing is still evolving. It goes probably towards BoB AI, so it's experimenting. It's time+cos(time) type of evolution from patch to patch http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I'm really looking forward to next patches, I think we'll see some other new AI features. The big problem is tuning the new features, that's where the cos(time) part comes.
Cheers!

knightflyte
03-27-2006, 02:16 AM
I remember reading that post where it was said Oleg replied and acknowleged the problem AI.

I don't know about you, but if Oleg emailed ME I'd have posted the pertinant part of said email.

I'm beginning to think the poster was pulling our leg. I hope I'm wrong.

joeap
03-27-2006, 05:15 AM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Actully Oleg has said that the AI fly the same FM as the user when flying user planes. As for AI only planes, he has also said that those FM's are not that polished. Thus the only way you might see the AI do something think is strange is when they are flying the AI only planes due to the simplfied FMs, as for user planes, they have to abide by the same rules that we do.


Well fair enough, but how come when my engine overheats never overheats on autopilot? Or if my engine is already overheating and I press "a" the message vanishes and my plane flies fine til I disengange the autopilot and the overheating message appears again? I am just curious that's all. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

DuxCorvan
03-27-2006, 06:34 AM
And how is it that my Zero breaks in pieces if I try to pursue a Wildcat in a steep dive, but AI Zeros are not only able to do that but even outdive F4F and F6Fs? (Discrediting all historical tactics in the process).

Kuna_
03-27-2006, 08:02 AM
Ai:
-have extra energy (thru cheats like no overheat)
-never jammed their flaps
-never break their structure on high speeds
-almost always see you first (90% of cases)
-see thru clouds (at least gunners)
-you can't sneak up on them; sometimes on very rare occasions I was able to sneak up on the formation on enemy fighters (I remember this exactly on New Guinea map me in Ki-43 vs. P-39s - CObras weren't in landing routine); notorious example is when they get into landing routine but that one is kinda exploit
-Ai gunners were always uber snipers
-Ai doesn't always obey your commands
-Ai always lose pure horizontal turnfight vs. player and they are generally bad on deck fighting
-Ai never give up the chase on lone player untill damaged/low fuel or 'till engaged with other fighters.
-When Ai crashes on runway (not disintegrates) no other Ai is able to land; they just circle (I presume untill fuel lasts I didn't wait to see). They are unable to avoid obstacles during taxiing/while landing.
-UFO moves; non-locking Bf-109 elevator on high speed being one example

Trotzky
03-27-2006, 08:45 AM
About AI-FM i recall a certain patch-release - the famous 4.0 - with the following anouncement as stated in the Readme_v40.rtf:
"It doesn’t matter if it is human or AI, because our AI pilots use the same FM!" This means the AI no longer uses the "simplified" FM it had before.
Nevertheless the AI abilities, without black- or redout for instance, remained sort of supernatural, because additional "pilot physics" were never coded; therefore AI appearance seems to be a problem of FM-modelling.

Sincerely, Trotzky

KG26_Alpha
03-27-2006, 06:48 PM
As a bomber group we have noticed the AI bombers He111 Ju88 Ju87 do nothing to attack ground targets even after radioing that they are, totally useless in 4.04m.
Its funny to see all pilots calling in the AI commands even some unrelated to attack to get them to do something .....
The flight commands are ok rejoin, rtb etc just attack is not doing anything even though they line up a target, eventually.
But there good at trying to kill you when landing and eventually roll into the ground in an obscure fashion?? wht the hells that about lol been there for a few patches now. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

AKA_TAGERT
03-27-2006, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by joeap:
Well fair enough, As allways


Originally posted by joeap:
but how come when my engine overheats never overheats on autopilot? Or if my engine is already overheating and I press "a" the message vanishes and my plane flies fine til I disengange the autopilot and the overheating message appears again? I am just curious that's all. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif My guess would be that the AI does not make use of your joystick, throttle, rudder pedeles, etc. Along with all the cockpit guages and messages that appear on the screen, therefore when the AI changes something, your more than likly not going to notice it visually via the user interface (aka cockpit).

WWMaxGunz
03-28-2006, 12:55 AM
CEM is not FM. Don't say about overheat and call it FM problem.

How much AI is needed to run full CEM? Maybe enough for air battle slideshow we could get if
only enough people whine loud enough. Hasn't there been enough demands met that did not turn
out so great once delivered?

Perhaps the AI do use CEM OTOH but don't push the engine to overheat. How many players still
have the idea that 100% rpm is the best way to go? Quickest route to overheat, for sure, but
not the best way to fly nor the fastest esp at 100% power or less.

AI keeps trimmed. AI keeps coordinated flight. If you do not then no way you keep up in the
same plane past when your heat runs out that you were running excess power and engine speed.

Bottom line is unless you are really good then you will see AI having more energy. Maybe it
would be good if lesser rank AI's made mistakes in settings, trimmed rarely and did not keep
the ball centered esp in battle which is what a rookie might do as well as many players.

How many years have we had sims that did all that 'little stuff' for us? Almost every sim
has, even IL2 original took care of prop and radiator. So many of us have gotten to become
'experts' at those sims and some still regard themselves as expert flyers and judge the sim
based on how well they do or do not against AI and others online. The fact is that in real
so many of us would wash out of fighter pilot school or become the next dead rookies if the
selection was relaxed due to lack of candidates. The fact is that so many of us don't take
the time to learn properly as the real pilots learned and in this sim it makes a difference.

I had a friend online who did more at under 90% power than most at 110% power. Really, I
have a few such friends I am priveleged to know. They rarely if ever post here because it
is something of a waste.

AI problems most needing fixed are the follow you into the ground type, the ignore you and
try to shoot through you type, and the not taking orders type. The actual intelligence
which has never been great in any sim I've ever seen. IMO until AI can be run on other
computers than the player (unless PC's take a big jump that is not 'eaten' by having better
graphics and more detail) through a LAN or even online some PC's are AI-only (a server with
LAN AI's would give most and fastest resources, again IMO) then maybe the AI writers will
have the memory and cycles to do terrific AI's even down to the pilot flaws.

Trotzky
03-28-2006, 07:12 AM
S! to all

Recently I tried to record a file showing some really futile AI maneuvres during dogfight; it's the average AI because this way it becomes really evident: see the poor P40 spiraling in barrel rolls against ground after initiating with a negative G-maneuvre at 1.45, it's snapping just above ground at ca. 3.00 and it's straight flight for no reason but being shot at. Normally I am avoidung parking at 6 (tooks to much time) but here I did, just for following AI's pathway. I cannot believe that pilots in WWII displayed such a hectic behavior.
File is here:
http://rapidshare.de/files/16631666/Mc202_test.trk.html

Sincerely, Trotzky

AKA_TAGERT
03-28-2006, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by Trotzky:
S! to all

Recently I tried to record a file showing some really futile AI maneuvres during dogfight; it's the average AI because this way it becomes really evident: see the poor P40 spiraling in barrel rolls against ground after initiating with a negative G-maneuvre at 1.45, it's snapping just above ground at ca. 3.00 and it's straight flight for no reason but being shot at. Normally I am avoidung parking at 6 (tooks to much time) but here I did, just for following AI's pathway. I cannot believe that pilots in WWIII displayed such a hectic behavior.
File is here:
http://rapidshare.de/files/16631666/Mc202_test.trk.html

Sincerely, Trotzky Hence the name.. Flight SIMULATION heavy on the SIM part.. Same goes for AI.. it aint perfect.. if it was you would be dead years ago.

Trotzky
03-28-2006, 08:39 AM
Yep, I know it's a sim - but a simulation - not airquake. For those FPS-thingies I'm becoming to old.

Sincerely, Trotzky

Young heroes: lots of them - old ones: few and far between, called "survivors".

joeap
03-28-2006, 12:20 PM
Thanks to Tagert and WWMaxGunz, your replies make sense.

Kuna_
03-28-2006, 01:00 PM
I'm interested to see reasonable explanation for Ai aircraft not breaking their wings on high speeds. That, in some cases renders energy tactic used by player useless. A6M2 doing +900km/h in dive. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
What is their secret?

BTW observe rich mixture smoke trails on 1000m.
My Ai Zero has strong kung-fu, that's for sure. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif
404__structuretest (http://free-vk.t-com.hr/domagoj/tracks/offline/404__structuretest.zip)

lowfighter
03-28-2006, 01:15 PM
I want an AI which is more AFRAID of doing risky
flying, just like a human in real life.

Actually there is a thing which has been toned down since 4.01: AI turn less, if I'm in almost any airplane and almost any AI plane is behind me, I can shake him by just turning tighter.

SeaFireLIV
03-28-2006, 02:08 PM
Still no response from Oleg? Oh well, back to Oblivion then...

Flying_Nutzo
03-28-2006, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by AVG_WarHawk:
Not exactly sure when this began, possibly when Pathetic Fighter was released or shortly there after. Certainly needs to be addressed.

Much like your attitude some may suggest.

Juego
03-29-2006, 08:07 AM
The AI, is good, but lets just say there is room for improvement. Like anything else outhere in this world http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

JuHa-
03-29-2006, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Kuna_:
I'm interested to see reasonable explanation for Ai aircraft not breaking their wings on high speeds.


Easy - ever heard of "Active noise cancellation"?
It relies on sending an additional sound as the noise, but with opposite phase. So when these two
sounds are combined at your ear, they will effectively cancel each other out.

So, as the vibrations on the wings grow with the speed, the AI just vibrates the stick in a
right frequency and opposite phase. Just micromovements and really fast. Hey, this is an AI
from '90s, things have moved on from '40s!!!

RegRag1977
03-29-2006, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Juego:
The AI, is good, but lets just say there is room for improvement. Like anything else outhere in this world http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

You're right man! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

But in another hand remember that without critics there would be no improvement http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif