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darkhorizon11
04-27-2005, 08:28 AM
I haven't had oodles of time to play in the past few weeks with Spring semester coming to a close. (Plus I've been doing a lot of real flying lately http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif) But last night I had some time so I saddled up in my classic P-51D-20NA. Its been a good while since I've flown it, when I do fly its been the Zero, Corsair, or Me 262. To be honest I don't think I've flown it since the last patch.

With that said I get up and go against some FW-190s and bf-109s at about 1500 meters. Well lets just say I was pretty stunned.

The P-51 is officially a dog! It can't turn. Literally. I swear I can jerk my P-28R in real life faster than I can that thing. More that what seems 10 degrees angle of attack and the plane goes into a violent spin. Okay mind you stall and spin modeling is wayyyy off anyways and I hope they're fixed in 4.0, but I won't go there in this thread. To make things worse, accelerates like Lucio Pavaratti after Christmas dinner. Whats the deal? I swear I can turn tighter in P-47 or the Me-262s I've been flying!

Mind you this is only in the P-51D. Later I played around with the B version and I now actually prefer the B over the D model.

For the record, I still shot down a couple Germans before I bought it and I'm not ranting because I lost, but simply because the Mustang is useless. I went to higher altitudes and had pretty much the same problems. The Mustang does get better as you climb but its still ridiculous.

When we first had her in AEP I'll admit it was quite uber and a little too good. Even though it my opinion its the best aircraft from WWII. Now though, its gone 180 degrees, its almost like its deliberately been made to suck. If the Mustang was really that bad theres no way the USAAF could have had the successes they did over Europe. Looks like the LW guys won after all. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

whitetornado_1
04-27-2005, 08:36 AM
The P-51 flys like it should that is an
overpowered unstable piece of ****.

Good diving properties not too bad climb
but,as for the rest its pretty accurate.

When the Mustang came the airwar was pretty
well over.

plumps_
04-27-2005, 08:40 AM
Next time at least jettison the bombs before you enter a dogfight in a plane loaded with enough fuel for five hours. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

VW-IceFire
04-27-2005, 08:42 AM
Nope...one of if not the best fighter in the game hands down.

Usual mistakes made by P-51 pilots in the sim:
1) Too low (1500m is low)
2) Too slow (350kph and higher is where you should be at all times in the Mustang during a fight)
3) Too much fuel (take 25% or 50% unless you're planning to fly for 8 hours to Berlin and back)

The fuel thing is huge...at 100% fuel the 51 is a DOG. But its not as bad in real life actually so be thankful. At 25% its very agile and light. I'm hoping the Tempest V takes after the Mustangs FM modeling (they were sometimes similar) as the Mustang is a pure joy to fly.

tigertalon
04-27-2005, 08:47 AM
Hi darkhorizon11

P-51D is one of the best fighters in this game. Did you ever fly Fw190? If you did, you know how to fly P51. If you didn't there is just one word for it: SPEED. Try turning at 500 or 600 kph. You will outturn everything else in this sim, even Spitfire, except maybe Fw190D9.

Always fly FAST and always try to be above your opponent. P51 has EXCELLENT high speed maneouvrability, this makes it fearsome high speed opponent, so it can use it's alt advantage much more efficiently than other planes, because you have more freedom at high speed deflection snapshots.

Personally, I fear P51 more than I do Spitfire when flying against them.



Even though it my opinion its the best aircraft from WWII. Now though, its gone 180 degrees, its almost like its deliberately been made to suck. If the Mustang was really that bad theres no way the USAAF could have had the successes they did over Europe. Looks like the LW guys won after all. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Maybe you need to reread history again. When P51s mixed it up for the first time with luftwaffe, they sucked terribly, suffering heavy looses, Fw190As and Bf109Gs outclassed them by far down low. That's why it was converted to dive bomber (A-36).

But when they changed engine, and started using it as an escort fighter, where it almost always had alt advantage (and in most cases also numerical one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) over enemy, they excelled. Just like in this sim. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

skabbe
04-27-2005, 08:53 AM
feel the flow

JG53Frankyboy
04-27-2005, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by tigertalon:
Hi darkhorizon11

P-51D is one of the best fighters in this game. Did you ever fly Fw190? If you did, you know how to fly P51. If you didn't there is just one word for it: SPEED. Try turning at 500 or 600 kph. You will outturn everything else in this sim, even Spitfire, except maybe Fw190D9.

Always fly FAST and always try to be above your opponent. P51 has EXCELLENT high speed maneouvrability, this makes it fearsome high speed opponent, so it can use it's alt advantage much more efficiently than other planes, because you have more freedom at high speed deflection snapshots.

Personally, I fear P51 more than I do Spitfire when flying against them.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Even though it my opinion its the best aircraft from WWII. Now though, its gone 180 degrees, its almost like its deliberately been made to suck. If the Mustang was really that bad theres no way the USAAF could have had the successes they did over Europe. Looks like the LW guys won after all. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Maybe you need to reread history again. When P51s mixed it up for the first time with luftwaffe, they sucked terribly, suffering heavy looses, Fw190As and Bf109Gs outclassed them by far down low. That's why it was converted to dive bomber (A-36).

But when they changed engine, and started using it as an escort fighter, where it almost always had alt advantage (and in most cases also numerical one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) over enemy, they excelled. Just like in this sim. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i would recommend you to read this
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_4.html
about the Allison engined Mustangs in RAF service ,than come again and claim this bird outclassed down low http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

darkhorizon11
04-27-2005, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Nope...one of if not the best fighter in the game hands down.

Usual mistakes made by P-51 pilots in the sim:
1) Too low (1500m is low)
2) Too slow (350kph and higher is where you should be at all times in the Mustang during a fight)
3) Too much fuel (take 25% or 50% unless you're planning to fly for 8 hours to Berlin and back)

The fuel thing is huge...at 100% fuel the 51 is a DOG. But its not as bad in real life actually so be thankful. At 25% its very agile and light. I'm hoping the Tempest V takes after the Mustangs FM modeling (they were sometimes similar) as the Mustang is a pure joy to fly.

Your right actually I forgot to decrease the amount of fuel. If it had enough fuel to fly to Berlin I guess that would have made a BIG difference.

And yes I did take it up to about 6000 meters. And I was talking about the D model sucking which had a Rolls Royce not the B model.

Either way I appreciate the tips guys! I'll try again tonight if I have time. Happy Hunting!

darkhorizon11
04-27-2005, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by whitetornado_1:
The P-51 flys like it should that is an
overpowered unstable piece of ****.

Good diving properties not too bad climb
but,as for the rest its pretty accurate.

When the Mustang came the airwar was pretty
well over.

February 1942? Yeah the war was pretty move over by then. Japan was only a few week from total destruction and the A-bomb after Pearl Harbor and the Russians were already at the gates of Berlin.

robban75
04-27-2005, 09:24 AM
For everyones information, in-game a fully fueled Mustang outclimbs a Fw 190A-9. If the A-9 is flown at auto prop pitch, the Mustang is 40 seconds faster to 5000m. At 25% fuel it outclimbs the D-9, and equals the La-7. So, IMO the Mustang in-game is an excellent climber.

Sir_Zerg
04-27-2005, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by darkhorizon11:
Mind you this is only in the P-51D. Later I played around with the B version and I now actually prefer the B over the D model.

I read some where (can't rember where) that some Mustabg plilots considdered the B model the batter plane. Because the D model has more armoment and there for more wate, or sumting like that.

Is this true and is it your oppiuons from flying them ingame?

Chuck_Older
04-27-2005, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by darkhorizon11:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Nope...one of if not the best fighter in the game hands down.

Usual mistakes made by P-51 pilots in the sim:
1) Too low (1500m is low)
2) Too slow (350kph and higher is where you should be at all times in the Mustang during a fight)
3) Too much fuel (take 25% or 50% unless you're planning to fly for 8 hours to Berlin and back)

The fuel thing is huge...at 100% fuel the 51 is a DOG. But its not as bad in real life actually so be thankful. At 25% its very agile and light. I'm hoping the Tempest V takes after the Mustangs FM modeling (they were sometimes similar) as the Mustang is a pure joy to fly.

Your right actually I forgot to decrease the amount of fuel. If it had enough fuel to fly to Berlin I guess that would have made a BIG difference.

And yes I did take it up to about 6000 meters. And I was talking about the D model sucking which had a Pratt and Whitney not the B model.

Either way I appreciate the tips guys! I'll try again tonight if I have time. Happy Hunting! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are very confused if you think that the North American P-51D had a Pratt and Whitney engine. The P-51D without question was powered by an liquid cooled Packard built Rolls Royce engine


Are you sure you're talking about the Mustang here?

horseback
04-27-2005, 10:04 AM
Mustang is still a pretty potent ride, but the fuel thing is a key consideration.

whitetornado managed to get almost everything wrong in just three sentences, which is notable, even on this forum, so I too will attempt to correct his slanders.

1. The P-51 with a Merlin engine is underpowered if anything, especially when fully loaded. In combat, most of the excess weight had been burned off or jettisoned by the time the Mustang made contact with the enemy. Since American aircraft were generally much larger than their opponents, they simply lacked the 'right now' accelleration that smaller and lighter planes with comparable horsepower had, so USAAF doctrine called for maintaining higher speeds, where the cleaner airframes conferred the edge to them.

2. The FB/AEP/PF FM has some holes IMO, most egregious being the fragility at high speeds. the Mustang was much sturdier than most other fighters of the time, the 'lightweight' reputation coming solely due to comparison to its primary US competitor, the P-47. P-51s were significantly stronger than almost everything else out there.

3. The air war was still in the balance when the first few (and I mean few) Mustangs trickled into the UK in late 1943. By the end of March 1944, there were only 3 groups operating the Merlin Mustang almost all alone over central Europe against everything the Luftwaffe could muster (check for yourself-there were several geschwader of fighters and zerstorers operating over Germany at the time, the majority of them veteran gruppe with proven aircraft and weapons). The Mustangs, eventually joined by P-38s and Jugs with wing tank plumbing a month or so later, pretty much wiped the floor with these LW veterans on somewhat less than even terms. The difference was that the 8th AF could more than make up for its losses, while the Germans couldn't replace the experienced men they lost. The 'aluminum overcast' period came about around the fall of 1944, when the factories and the convoys finally caught up with the USAAF's demands.

4. Finally, tigertalon, you need to get rid of those comic books. The early Allison engined Mustangs were extremely fast and sweet handling below 15000 ft, where they were the preferred tactical recon aircraft for both the RAF and the USAAF. It was also quite handy as a dive bomber, although the dive bomber version was really just another way to get around pre-war congressional interference, like the 'pursuit' designation instead of the more warlike 'fighter.'

cheers

horseback

HayateAce
04-27-2005, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by tigertalon:
Hi darkhorizon11

P-51D is one of the best fighters in this game. Did you ever fly Fw190? If you did, you know how to fly P51. If you didn't there is just one word for it: SPEED. Try turning at 500 or 600 kph. You will outturn everything else in this sim, even Spitfire, except maybe Fw190D9.

Always fly FAST and always try to be above your opponent. P51 has EXCELLENT high speed maneouvrability, this makes it fearsome high speed opponent, so it can use it's alt advantage much more efficiently than other planes, because you have more freedom at high speed deflection snapshots.

Personally, I fear P51 more than I do Spitfire when flying against them.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Even though it my opinion its the best aircraft from WWII. Now though, its gone 180 degrees, its almost like its deliberately been made to suck. If the Mustang was really that bad theres no way the USAAF could have had the successes they did over Europe. Looks like the LW guys won after all. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Maybe you need to reread history again. When P51s mixed it up for the first time with luftwaffe, they sucked terribly, suffering heavy looses, Fw190As and Bf109Gs outclassed them by far down low. That's why it was converted to dive bomber (A-36).

But when they changed engine, and started using it as an escort fighter, where it almost always had alt advantage (and in most cases also numerical one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) over enemy, they excelled. Just like in this sim. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What a complete load of ****.

Keep believing FanBois that Oleg has the P51 correct.

He does not.

Ask a real Mustang pilot, I have.

robban75
04-27-2005, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
What a complete load of ****.

Keep believing FanBois that Oleg has the P51 correct.

He does not.

Ask a real Mustang pilot, I have.

Bruce Lockwood doesn't count.

faustnik
04-27-2005, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:

Keep believing FanBois that Oleg has the P51 correct.

He does not.


Please explain to this FanBoy exactly how it is not correct.

Chuck_Older
04-27-2005, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by tigertalon:

But when they changed engine, and started using it as an escort fighter, where it almost always had alt advantage (and in most cases also numerical one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) over enemy, they excelled. Just like in this sim. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Gotta disagree

Fighter escort doctrine was changed during the war. Escort pilots intitially were tied to the bombers. Later, escorts could pursue a fleeing enemy out of the immediate area. It's my opinion that you are terribly over-simplifying the matter

lrrp22
04-27-2005, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:

Keep believing FanBois that Oleg has the P51 correct.

He does not.


Please explain to this FanBoy exactly how it is not correct. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me, too. I think the P-51's current FM is excellent. I guess that makes me a Fanboy...

lrrp22
04-27-2005, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
Gotta disagree

Fighter escort doctrine was changed during the war. Escort pilots intitially were tied to the bombers. Later, escorts could pursue a fleeing enemy out of the immediate area. It's my opinion that you are terribly over-simplifying the matter

Exactly. After the early Spring of '44, the escorts were as likely to encounter air opposition at 8,000 ft as they were at 25,000- due to Doolittle's mandate to seek the enemy wherever they could find him. Not to mention the fact that many of the engagements that started high, ended low.

RedNeckerson
04-27-2005, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by robban75:
For everyones information, in-game a fully fueled Mustang outclimbs a Fw 190A-9. If the A-9 is flown at auto prop pitch, the Mustang is 40 seconds faster to 5000m. At 25% fuel it outclimbs the D-9, and equals the La-7. So, IMO the Mustang in-game is an excellent climber.


Robban, can you post your test conditions for this?

Crimea map I suppose?

Chuck_Older
04-27-2005, 02:00 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
darkhorizon:

some confusion still exists

The P-51B was also powered by an engine that was a license-built version of the Rolls Royce Merlin, manufactured by Packard for NAA

The P-51A was Allison equipped

Here's a breakdown for you:
http://www.icon.co.za/~pauljnr/specs1.htm

robban75
04-27-2005, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by RedNeckerson:
Robban, can you post your test conditions for this?

Crimea map I suppose?

Yepp, always Crimea. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Default loadout, 110% power and boost, 100% prop pitch. Climb speed ~260-270km/h TAS.

RedNeckerson
04-27-2005, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by robban75:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RedNeckerson:
Robban, can you post your test conditions for this?

Crimea map I suppose?

Yepp, always Crimea. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Default loadout, 110% power and boost, 100% prop pitch. Climb speed ~260-270km/h TAS. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Can you compare your in-game results with actual(RL) test reports?

I know I'm pushing it a little http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Lucius_Esox
04-27-2005, 03:36 PM
I dont get this at all. I have been flying the Spit online a lot recently and it's good but imo it's no way uber. When you come against a Blue pilot who knows how to use his aeroplanes speed it's like trying to swat flies with too short arms in the Spit.

The Mustang is way different. It's high speed manouverability is great. Just keep it high and fast and think a little bit and you will come to love this plane.... in the game!

HellToupee
04-27-2005, 03:42 PM
maybe when mustang turns like a gladiator people will be happy.

robban75
04-27-2005, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by RedNeckerson:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by robban75:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RedNeckerson:
Robban, can you post your test conditions for this?

Crimea map I suppose?

Yepp, always Crimea. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Default loadout, 110% power and boost, 100% prop pitch. Climb speed ~260-270km/h TAS. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Can you compare your in-game results with actual(RL) test reports?

I know I'm pushing it a little http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can post my in-game test results, but I'll leave the RL test report comparison to the experts. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Here are the times, plus m/sec for the P-51D-20NA.

100% fuel.

1000 - :54 - 18.5
2000 - 1:46 - 19.2
3000 - 2:36 - 20.0
4000 - 3:29 - 18.5
5000 - 4:37 - 14.7

25% fuel.

1000 - :45 - 22.2
2000 - 1:30 - 22.2
3000 - 2:13 - 23.3
4000 - 3:00 - 21.3
5000 - 3:56 - 17.9

whitetornado_1
04-27-2005, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by darkhorizon11:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by whitetornado_1:
The P-51 flys like it should that is an
overpowered unstable piece of ****.

Good diving properties not too bad climb
but,as for the rest its pretty accurate.

When the Mustang came the airwar was pretty
well over.

February 1942? Yeah the war was pretty move over by then. Japan was only a few week from total destruction and the A-bomb after Pearl Harbor and the Russians were already at the gates of Berlin. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The P-51B entered service in England
in December 43 and yep the LW was flying
out of Germany almost extinct,oh
and horseback I was trying to encourage
the P-51 boys hey it was the best the
U.S. could come up with at the end of
43 to just assist the mighty SPITFIRE
the true fighter plane.

So at the end the P-51's were used for what
they were capable of doing that is fighter
bomber duties like most of the U.S. A/C.
Of course the SPITFIRES would provide fighter
cover for them.

darkhorizon11
04-27-2005, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by whitetornado_1:

The P-51B entered service in England
in December 43 and yep the LW was flying
out of Germany almost extinct,oh
and horseback I was trying to encourage
the P-51 boys hey it was the best the
U.S. could come up with at the end of
43 to just assist the mighty SPITFIRE
the true fighter plane.

So at the end the P-51's were used for what
they were capable of doing that is fighter
bomber duties like most of the U.S. A/C.
Of course the SPITFIRES would provide fighter
cover for them.

Nope although it didn't gain its prestige as a long range escort until later it actually first flew before America even entered the war, as a lend lease fighter to be sent to Britain. Turns out she was so good that the USAAC ordered some too. Here:

http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/NAP-51D.htm

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_4.html

I could've sworn it was the A and B version that contained Allison, oh well I stand corrected! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

92SqnGCJimbo
04-27-2005, 06:03 PM
the b also had the merlin..

alot of mustang pilots preferred the b as it was more stable.. due to the fact that it didnt have a extra fuel tank behind the cockpit like the d... which did all kinds of wierd and wonderful things to the cofg and stability

LStarosta
04-27-2005, 06:38 PM
The Mustang is a superior aircraft.

JG53Frankyboy
04-27-2005, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by 92SqnGCJimbo:
the b also had the merlin..

alot of mustang pilots preferred the b as it was more stable.. due to the fact that it didnt have a extra fuel tank behind the cockpit like the d... which did all kinds of wierd and wonderful things to the cofg and stability

but it seems in game all Mustangs has this fuselage tank.
btw, i read on baughers side also the B/C goth this tank later on.

"In the pursuit of still more range, a P-51B was experimentally fitted with an extra 85 US gallon self-sealing fuel tank behind the pilot's seat, bringing the total fuel to 419 US gallons (including 2 drop tanks). Although the Mustang already offered outstanding range performance, this additional fuel made it even better. This extra range was being demanded by expanding operations in both the European and Pacific theatres. However, this extra fuel tank moved the center of gravity aft, which made the directional stability of the Mustang quite poor, so that the pilot would have to spend the first hour or so concentrating on keeping his airplane pointed in the right direction until this new tank was finally empty. The last 550 P-51B-5-NAs were fitted with this extra tank, becoming P-51B-7-NAs, and into P-51C-1-NTs, becoming P-51C-3-NT. In addition, some earlier P-51Bs and Cs were modified in the field to accommodate this tank. In service, however, the directional instability caused by the presence of a full fuel tank behind the pilot's seat was a hazard for new or inexperienced pilots, and the tank was usually restricted to 65 US gallons. This extra tank, nevertheless, still made a crucial difference in combat radius, and it was standard equipment in all future production versions. With this extra fuel, Mustangs were able to escort bombers all the way to Berlin from bases in Britain. "

Bearcat99
04-27-2005, 08:32 PM
The P-51..... all variants of it are pretty decent. The worse thing IMO that can happen in this sim in a P-51 is the wings breaking off in a power dive. If you come out of the dive shallow and/or dont yank the stick in an direction when going above 300mph you wont have that problem. If you use flaps and trim in your turns.. use your engine properly.... carry less fuel and drop tanks to your destination .... fire at convergence or close to it in either direction.... and try not to let your speed drop below 275 you will do very well.

horseback
04-27-2005, 08:39 PM
The P-51B entered service in England
in December 43 and yep the LW was flying
out of Germany almost extinct,oh
and horseback I was trying to encourage
the P-51 boys hey it was the best the
U.S. could come up with at the end of
43 to just assist the mighty SPITFIRE
the true fighter plane.

So at the end the P-51's were used for what
they were capable of doing that is fighter
bomber duties like most of the U.S. A/C.
Of course the SPITFIRES would provide fighter
cover for them.

I guess ignorance is bliss...

cheers

horseback

Badsight.
04-27-2005, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by darkhorizon11:
I haven't had oodles of time to play in the past few weeks with Spring semester coming to a close. (Plus I've been doing a lot of real flying lately http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif) But last night I had some time so I saddled up in my classic P-51D-20NA. Its been a good while since I've flown it, when I do fly its been the Zero, Corsair, or Me 262. To be honest I don't think I've flown it since the last patch.

With that said I get up and go against some FW-190s and bf-109s at about 1500 meters. Well lets just say I was pretty stunned.

The P-51 is officially a dog! It can't turn. Literally. I swear I can jerk my P-28R in real life faster than I can that thing. More that what seems 10 degrees angle of attack and the plane goes into a violent spin. Okay mind you stall and spin modeling is wayyyy off anyways and I hope they're fixed in 4.0, but I won't go there in this thread. To make things worse, accelerates like Lucio Pavaratti after Christmas dinner. Whats the deal? I swear I can turn tighter in P-47 or the Me-262s I've been flying!

Mind you this is only in the P-51D. Later I played around with the B version and I now actually prefer the B over the D model.

For the record, I still shot down a couple Germans before I bought it and I'm not ranting because I lost, but simply because the Mustang is useless. I went to higher altitudes and had pretty much the same problems. The Mustang does get better as you climb but its still ridiculous.

When we first had her in AEP I'll admit it was quite uber and a little too good. Even though it my opinion its the best aircraft from WWII. Now though, its gone 180 degrees, its almost like its deliberately been made to suck. If the Mustang was really that bad theres no way the USAAF could have had the successes they did over Europe. Looks like the LW guys won after all. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif HA HA HA

& again

HA HA HA

you is teh funneh !

oh wait , you trying to be serious here ?

Badsight.
04-27-2005, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:

Keep believing FanBois that Oleg has the P51 correct.

He does not.


Please explain to this FanBoy exactly how it is not correct. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
oh come on , as if HayateHater is here for anything but griping & trolling

Chuck_Older
04-28-2005, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by whitetornado_1:

The P-51B entered service in England
in December 43 and yep the LW was flying
out of Germany almost extinct,oh
and horseback I was trying to encourage
the P-51 boys hey it was the best the
U.S. could come up with at the end of
43 to just assist the mighty SPITFIRE
the true fighter plane.

So at the end the P-51's were used for what
they were capable of doing that is fighter
bomber duties like most of the U.S. A/C.
Of course the SPITFIRES would provide fighter
cover for them.

The Mustang could do things the Spitfire couldn't. The Spitfire could do things the Mustang couldn't

If you beleive the drivel you're spouting, then I suggest you take your history and reference books back comic book store you got them from

HeinzBar
04-28-2005, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:

Keep believing FanBois that Oleg has the P51 correct.

He does not.


Please explain to this FanBoy exactly how it is not correct. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
oh come on , as if HayateHater is here for anything but griping & trolling </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

S!,
I couldn't agree more. I honestly can't recall when Hayate has added anything constructive to the conversation. In all honesty, I'd be surprised if you could find a post of his that wasn't meant to be a flame, troll, or gripe.

HB

geetarman
04-28-2005, 10:07 AM
DarkH - I'm not up to the RL tech stuff on the P-51, but I fly it exclusively on WC.

Excellent points vs. late war German planes:

1. Visibility out of the cockpit.
2. High speed at medium to high alts
3. High speed man. and horiz. turning
4. High dive speed


Decent points:

1. Armament
2. High speed climb
3. Acceleration
4. Durability

Weak points

1. Low speed man.
2. Low speed climb

Not a dogfighter - don't bother. But, you can get away from almost anything and set up for another try.

JG52Karaya-X
04-28-2005, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by darkhorizon11:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by whitetornado_1:
The P-51 flys like it should that is an
overpowered unstable piece of ****.

Good diving properties not too bad climb
but,as for the rest its pretty accurate.

When the Mustang came the airwar was pretty
well over.

February 1942? Yeah the war was pretty move over by then. Japan was only a few week from total destruction and the A-bomb after Pearl Harbor and the Russians were already at the gates of Berlin. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought we're talking about P51B and Ds...

The P51B had its first combat missions in late 1943 and the P51D in mid-44... that's pretty late for the war in Europe started in early 1939.

BTW, yes, the P51A was some POS... as well as the A36 (when it comes to A2A fighting)

whitetornado_1
04-28-2005, 05:36 PM
The Mustang could do things the Spitfire couldn't.

Lolllll

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

darkhorizon11
04-28-2005, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by darkhorizon11:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by whitetornado_1:
The P-51 flys like it should that is an
overpowered unstable piece of ****.

Good diving properties not too bad climb
but,as for the rest its pretty accurate.

When the Mustang came the airwar was pretty
well over.

February 1942? Yeah the war was pretty move over by then. Japan was only a few week from total destruction and the A-bomb after Pearl Harbor and the Russians were already at the gates of Berlin. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought we're talking about P51B and Ds...

The P51B had its first combat missions in late 1943 and the P51D in mid-44... that's pretty late for the war in Europe started in early 1939.

BTW, yes, the P51A was some POS... as well as the A36 (when it comes to A2A fighting) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well true it depends upon which type your flying. I wouldn't say the war in Europe was over even by late 43. There was actaully a debate of weather or not the USAAC could continue bombing Germany because of the tremendous losses. The introduction of the Mustang as an escort caused massive reduction in bomber losses. If it wasn't for the Mustang in my opinion the daylight bomber campaign probably would have been restricted if not halted all together. Giving Germany breathing room, allowing the Luftwaffe to get back on its feet and forstalling the Normandy invasion etc. etc. Its a ripple effect. The war did end only 18 months or so later but that doesn't necessarily mean the war was over when the Mustang entered combat.

Chuck_Older
04-28-2005, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by whitetornado_1:
The Mustang could do things the Spitfire couldn't.

Lolllll

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Are you just happily drooling lolllll, or do you have a point you'd like to make?

Let me ask you a question. Do you judge actual WWII aircraft on the performance of aircraft in this sim?

Let me ask another question: why do you think that the Allies didn't just make one fighter and that fighter was the Spitfire? Dogfighting is not the only measure of a fighter aircraft. if Fighter Command had your grasp of strategic airpower, the RAF lads would have been walking home after their missions

The Tempest and Typhoon could do things the Spit couldn't either. You're online, go find out some info, and then we can lolllll together

Atomic_Marten
04-28-2005, 06:33 PM
Chuck, your words are true.

About some SpitvP51 things.. well, for one obvious thing; (in game dogfight http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) try to roll with Spit on 600kph. Now try that same thing in Mustang. Ahh..http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Swivet
04-28-2005, 10:34 PM
"accelerates like Lucio Pavaratti after Christmas dinner"
ROTFLMFAO http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

VW-IceFire
04-28-2005, 10:51 PM
Mustang has all sorts of good things going for it in this game.

Visibility, speed, gunsight (on the D-20), high speed manueverability. Whats not to like. The plane is awesome...it carries energy in a very believable and useful manner and its capable of fighting against any other type of fighter without too much trouble.

Thing is we get some new pilot, takes 100% fuel, flies by himself, stays very low, and gets bounced by a 190 and wonders what happened to the amazing Mustang. Happens to all planes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

lbhskier37
04-29-2005, 12:29 AM
As a guy who flys LW almost exclusively it makes me laugh when I come in here and hear about how the mustang is porked and flys like ****. Flying online the Mustang is the plane I fear the most. Unless a Spit is jumping me from a high E advantage I don't even worry about them, but whenever I see a P51 I know I could have my hands full real soon.

tigertalon
04-29-2005, 02:34 AM
Originally posted by lbhskier37:
As a guy who flys LW almost exclusively it makes me laugh when I come in here and hear about how the mustang is porked and flys like ****. Flying online the Mustang is the plane I fear the most. Unless a Spit is jumping me from a high E advantage I don't even worry about them, but whenever I see a P51 I know I could have my hands full real soon.

My words EXACTLY.

Even when going 1v1, P51 is a fearsome opponent, but when deployed in a group, where they cover each other, drag enemies for each other, picking enemies from each other tail, because of superior speed and high speed maneouvrability, they are very very good. I find Fw190A v P51 a very good match.

Spitfire is not that fast, most german fighters (in same timeframe) can outrun or outdive, many can even outclimb them (MW50 equipped Bfs).

OldMan____
04-29-2005, 05:41 AM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by whitetornado_1:
The Mustang could do things the Spitfire couldn't.

Lolllll

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Are you just happily drooling lolllll, or do you have a point you'd like to make?

Let me ask you a question. Do you judge actual WWII aircraft on the performance of aircraft in this sim?

Let me ask another question: why do you think that the Allies didn't just make one fighter and that fighter was the Spitfire? Dogfighting is not the only measure of a fighter aircraft. if Fighter Command had your grasp of strategic airpower, the RAF lads would have been walking home after their missions

The Tempest and Typhoon could do things the Spit couldn't either. You're online, go find out some info, and then we can lolllll together </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

making a single model of fighters would be idiot decision. Even LW noticed that and requested the FW190. If you have asingle fighter.. your enemy may concentrate on developing an counter measure specifically for it!! They can adjust their tatics. Imagine allied had only P47! LW would just try move to offensive against england again.. flying dam low where any P47 incursion would be suicide. Same thing if allies had only the yak 9...

FW190 was superior to bf109... but it was not adequate for very high altitude combat.. so.. if germany had droped bf109 for its new superior fighter.... P51 would not have a single kill.. since no LW plane would ever go high enough to be a valid target for a P51.

Slickun
04-29-2005, 10:38 AM
Johnny Johnson's book "Wing Leader", I think is the title, goes into the whole P-51/Spitfire thing a bit.

The Brits loved their Spitfire, make no mistake, but also acknowledged that there was a huge advantage in a plane flying to Berlin and taking the fight to the Germans.

Chuck_Older
04-29-2005, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by whitetornado_1:
The Mustang could do things the Spitfire couldn't.

Lolllll

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Are you just happily drooling lolllll, or do you have a point you'd like to make?

Let me ask you a question. Do you judge actual WWII aircraft on the performance of aircraft in this sim?

Let me ask another question: why do you think that the Allies didn't just make one fighter and that fighter was the Spitfire? Dogfighting is not the only measure of a fighter aircraft. if Fighter Command had your grasp of strategic airpower, the RAF lads would have been walking home after their missions

The Tempest and Typhoon could do things the Spit couldn't either. You're online, go find out some info, and then we can lolllll together </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

making a single model of fighters would be idiot decision. Even LW noticed that and requested the FW190. If you have asingle fighter.. your enemy may concentrate on developing an counter measure specifically for it!! They can adjust their tatics. Imagine allied had only P47! LW would just try move to offensive against england again.. flying dam low where any P47 incursion would be suicide. Same thing if allies had only the yak 9...

FW190 was superior to bf109... but it was not adequate for very high altitude combat.. so.. if germany had droped bf109 for its new superior fighter.... P51 would not have a single kill.. since no LW plane would ever go high enough to be a valid target for a P51. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, that's my point exactly about having more than one fighter. It's patently absurd to expect one aircraft to perform all roles well. The Fairey battle comes to mind

But I have to disagree about the P-51 getting no kills if the 190 hadn't come along. The Germans would have had to mount interceptions on the bombers as a matter of course, and the Bf 109 or any other aircraft for that matter would simply have been made in a modified version to fullfill that role, or else, another aircraft would have been developed and that plane would have done it. In any case, the P-51 would still have been used to catch Me 262s over their own airbases and to escort lower altitude bombers, in which case, the later marks of P-51 would have been optimised to fulfill that role. The adaptation of the airframes, axis and allied, would not have remained static just because the 190 or the 109 was dropped, so in this case I must disagree with your standpoint

OldMan____
04-29-2005, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by whitetornado_1:
The Mustang could do things the Spitfire couldn't.

Lolllll

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Are you just happily drooling lolllll, or do you have a point you'd like to make?

Let me ask you a question. Do you judge actual WWII aircraft on the performance of aircraft in this sim?

Let me ask another question: why do you think that the Allies didn't just make one fighter and that fighter was the Spitfire? Dogfighting is not the only measure of a fighter aircraft. if Fighter Command had your grasp of strategic airpower, the RAF lads would have been walking home after their missions

The Tempest and Typhoon could do things the Spit couldn't either. You're online, go find out some info, and then we can lolllll together </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

making a single model of fighters would be idiot decision. Even LW noticed that and requested the FW190. If you have asingle fighter.. your enemy may concentrate on developing an counter measure specifically for it!! They can adjust their tatics. Imagine allied had only P47! LW would just try move to offensive against england again.. flying dam low where any P47 incursion would be suicide. Same thing if allies had only the yak 9...

FW190 was superior to bf109... but it was not adequate for very high altitude combat.. so.. if germany had droped bf109 for its new superior fighter.... P51 would not have a single kill.. since no LW plane would ever go high enough to be a valid target for a P51. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, that's my point exactly about having more than one fighter. It's patently absurd to expect one aircraft to perform all roles well. The Fairey battle comes to mind

But I have to disagree about the P-51 getting no kills if the 190 hadn't come along. The Germans would have had to mount interceptions on the bombers as a matter of course, and the Bf 109 or any other aircraft for that matter would simply have been made in a modified version to fullfill that role, or else, another aircraft would have been developed and that plane would have done it. In any case, the P-51 would still have been used to catch Me 262s over their own airbases and to escort lower altitude bombers, in which case, the later marks of P-51 would have been optimised to fulfill that role. The adaptation of the airframes, axis and allied, would not have remained static just because the 190 or the 109 was dropped, so in this case I must disagree with your standpoint </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you din't got it. I said.. if LW had droped the 109.. in favor of a PURE 190 LW. There would me no need for P51... It would be a matter of just making B17 fly as high as possible.. where 190 do not fly.

LStarosta
04-29-2005, 03:23 PM
So quickly we forget about the Ta152 and 190D9...

Chuck_Older
04-29-2005, 03:31 PM
Oldman-
Yes, I did get it. if the B-17s flew so high that current German aircraft could not have intercepted, then existing aircraft would have been modified, or new ones developed. The Luftwaffe had no choice but defensive actions for much of the late war. I understand your point perfectly. But you do not see my side of things: the Luftwaffe would need to fill that void. If the 109 was dropped, the 190 would have assumed it's roles. You disagree, and that's fine, but I know what you're saying. I just cannot conceive that the Germans would concede defeat in the air without making an attempt to counter the ultra-high altitude bombers

Then I also say that I disagree with the concept of the P51 having no Luftwaffe aircraft to shoot down, because fighter-bomer, low and mediium bombers still would exist and have roles to fulfill. The strategic bomber cannot conduct a tactical bomber's role at 40,000 feet. The Mustang would still have had a role. I also mentioned that the P51 would also still have been used to counter the Me 262

I grasp your statements fully, I just happen to disagree with them- the P-51 would have had targets, they just wouldn't have been at ultra high altitude is all.

Unless the USAAF had nothing but high altitude missions for the B-17 or other bombers, the P-51 would have had a job, and that job would have been destruction of enemy aircraft.

Even if it were to intercept and destroy German bombers en route to Allied held Europe, they would have had a job. Your arguments assume that the P-51 must be an aircraft that must work in tandem with a bomber to protect. I say that the P-51 would have been used in escort missions at lower altitude. Ultra High altitude didn't translate into bombing accuracy anyway, so the ultra high, interception-free B17s that no german aircraft could intercept would be a useless weapon, and the bombers would be brought down in altitude to where they could be effective, in which case the Luftwaffe would again be able to intercept with existing aircraft.

So I disagree with your statements about the Luftwaffe, if it had phased out ANY aircraft in favor of any other aircraft, owuld have been unable to intercept any Allied or USAAF bomber, putting the P-51 out of a job. The job would still exist, at different altitudes or for protecting different bombers with different mission profiles from the B-17s, and in any case, the very high altitude B17s would be brought back down to reasonable altitudes conducive to war-winning results from their missions. But I get what you are saying quite clearly