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luftluuver
02-21-2008, 09:07 AM
translated by Leland Fetzer, published by Doubleday in 1973.

From Pages 382 & 383:

What Really Caused the German Defeat? Bourgeois falsifiers of World War II history attempt by any means at their disposal to minimize the role of the Soviet Air Force in the defeat of the Luftwaffe. They affirm that the power of the Luftwaffe was undermined by the Anglo-American bombing raids on German aircraft factories. However, historical documents and facts overthrow these unfounded assertions. Before 1943, when the fascist Luftwaffe was still strong and the battle for the control of the air was still in question, the American and English air forces had flown almost no raids against air targets in Germany. In 1943, they dropped only 2 percent of their bombs on aircraft factories, and the effect of their raids was not great.

The opening of the second front in Europe in the summer of 1944 had no real influence on the struggle of our air force with Fascist air power. The increased efforts of the Anglo-American air force against industrial targets (including aircraft plants) did not give the desired results. In 1944, Germany increased its aircraft production in comparison with 1943, from 24,365 aircraft to 40,482.* The most effective Anglo-American raids were against synthetic fuel plants in 1945, but they occurred when Germany was already on the verge of an unavoidable catastrophe.

In spite of great losses , the Germans were still able to maintain their original air armies on the Soviet-German front, where most of their experienced air units and groups were located even after the opening of the second front. About 30 percent of the German aircraft located on the Western Front and other theatres of war were in fact reserves of the German command.

Thus, the loss of the control of the air, which the Germans suffered in 1943 can be explained not by the English and American air raids on German aircraft plants, but by the defeat of its best squadrons on the Soviet-German front.
In the first half of 1944 the Soviet Air Force was strengthened by more than 3000 aircraft and had nearly a fourfold advantage over the enemy. This additional growth made it possible for the Soviet Air Force to complete its assignment of defeating the Fascist air forces without Anglo-American help.

Klemm.co
02-21-2008, 09:30 AM
Propaganda Should be forbidden on this forum.
Oh, wait! We wouldn't have much to talk about anymore. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

JG52Karaya-X
02-21-2008, 09:35 AM
Thats the first time I read that the German Luftwaffe sent its best units to the Eastern front. Normally the opposite picture is presented, i.e. that the elite squadrons were reserved for fighting the western allies whereas the eastern front was a rest cure where quantity mattered more than quality.

But thats not to say that JG52/53/54, etc. were bad units... quite the contrary!

This all seems to be a question which winner side you ask, everyone wants to shine in the best light having fought "the best the Germans had".

BWaltteri
02-21-2008, 09:49 AM
It is from 1973.

It calls Luftwaffe 'Fascist' and the previous historu 'Bourgeois' (=Capitalist).

It uses the word 'really'.


It better to believe it then!

(My first post on this forum)

csThor
02-21-2008, 09:50 AM
Soviet official history is nothing but a distortion of facts and figures to fit their communist propaganda. Sadly not even modern Russia has been able to shirk the stalinist BS and draw an accurate picture of WW2 on the Eastern Front. But this time reality was sacrificed for an "national emotional well-being". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

BWaltteri
02-21-2008, 09:59 AM
There has not been much modern Russian scholarship works on WW2 yet, but something fairly good has been done. Kilin is one very appreciated historian, but Baryshnikov tells much the same old 'facts'.

JtD
02-21-2008, 10:00 AM
It's pretty much a fact that Western publications belittled and belittle the role of the VVS.

It's also a fact that Soviet publications belittled the role of the Western Allies.

If you check the Luftwaffe losses in BoB you can figure what additional trouble the VVS would have been in in Barbarossa. If you check the Luftwaffe losses on the Eastern Front 1941-1942 you can figure what trouble the Western Allies would have been in in 1943.

BWaltteri
02-21-2008, 10:10 AM
Comparative studies are the best - belittling one side is just as bad as making it too big.

WN_Barbarossa
02-21-2008, 10:22 AM
I always have to laugh, when Soviet authors call WW2 Germany "fascist", otherwise it would be hard to explain to the people why the socialists are the good guys while the national socialists are the baddies.

Bewolf
02-21-2008, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by WN_Barbarossa:
I always have to laugh, when Soviet authors call WW2 Germany "fascist", otherwise it would be hard to explain to the people why the socialists are the good guys while the national socialists are the baddies.

Very simple. The same way "liberal" in the US nowadays appears to be something like a curse.

Always interesting to see how terms are twisted to fit an agenda.

That said, I do not wonder about that piece of propaganda. The same is true for the west, really. This board in many aspects is living truth of that.

Enforcer572005
02-21-2008, 10:38 AM
Maybe the only way to get a balanced view of it is to let the Germans write it?
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Chris0382
02-21-2008, 10:40 AM
The Russians performed a very brave task on thier front. They threw numbers and some good aircraft against the Germans not to mention Spitfires and P-39's given to them.

The Russians also employed female pilots against the Germans. Just as they did with giving up land and humans to eat away at the German forces and buy time, they did this also with aircraft and tanks rolling out off the assembly line to the battle.

Japan was also kept at bay in the Pacific.

For the years Russians were our allies they performed heroic and there should not be an issue giving their sacrafices on who did the better job.

It very fortunate for us, the Germans were outnumbered in humans, land, and eventually in militay machinery.

Bewolf
02-21-2008, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by Enforcer572005:
Maybe the only way to get a balanced view of it is to let the Germans write it?
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

hahahaha.



no.

Bewolf
02-21-2008, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by Chris0382:
The Russians performed a very brave task on thier front. They threw numbers and some good aircraft against the Germans not to mention Spitfires and P-39's given to them.

The Russians also employed female pilots against the Germans. Just as they did with giving up land and humans to eat away at the German forces and buy time, they did this also with aircraft and tanks rolling out off the assembly line to the battle.

Japan was also kept at bay in the Pacific.

For the years Russians were our allies they performed heroic and there should not be an issue giving their sacrafices on who did the better job.

It very fortunate for us, the Germans were outnumbered in humans, land, and eventually in militay machinery.

Considering Stalin directly and indirectly killed of more ppl then Hitler ever did, I'd be cautious about what you write in regards to sacrifice and heroics. It's a thin line to walk.

leitmotiv
02-21-2008, 12:21 PM
I used to own the massive one volume history of the Great Patriotic War published by Progress Publishers in Moscow. In 1976, when we knew next to nothing about the Sov side of the war, I considered it to be useful for its maps, and that was it. It had enormous amounts of statistics, and endless descriptions of how the Party intervened to prevent errors (herf herf). Former Waffen SS man "Paul Carrell's" HITLER MOVES EAST and SCORCHED EARTH were far better, and generally only fell down where he had to rely on Soviet post-war sources. For eyewitness accounts his volumes still have value.

larschance
02-21-2008, 01:01 PM
Christer Berstroms books on the air war over Stalingrad and Kursk plus his 3 volumes called Black Cross Red Star give the most detailed and balanced account of the air war over the eastern front. Highly recommended.

bhunter2112
02-21-2008, 01:06 PM
I agree abot the Berstroms book I am getting the air battle series as well...good stuff. Also they anounced the final book in the 4 part series "Bagrattion to Berlin"

bhunter2112
02-21-2008, 01:08 PM
http://www.ianallanpublishing.com/product.php?productid=59384&cat=0&page=1

link to book

FPSOLKOR
02-21-2008, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Bewolf:
Considering Stalin directly and indirectly killed of more ppl then Hitler ever did, I'd be cautious about what you write in regards to sacrifice and heroics. It's a thin line to walk.
I'd be damn! another fool speaks of something abot what he has no idea... Empire of Good did a lot of brainwashing, and did it well... Didn't want to intervene. Sorry.

Bergstroms books are nice for primary studying of the subject, but they are definitely "for starters" only.

There are books available in Russian that are by far better in terms of reliability. No idea when or if they will ever be translated to other languages. But I would highly recomend Rastrenin and Perov.
http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9781846032967
Here is a book in Russian, which does not need any translation
ISBN: 978-5-699-20526-4
Sample (scroll down):
http://www.my-shop.ru/_files/product/pdf/274552.pdf

P/S/ I'm not happy with official GPW history books (neither published in the East or West) published during 1953-2000. Only lately we started recieving interesting books.

Bewolf
02-21-2008, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by FPSOLKOR:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bewolf:
Considering Stalin directly and indirectly killed of more ppl then Hitler ever did, I'd be cautious about what you write in regards to sacrifice and heroics. It's a thin line to walk.
I'd be damn! another fool speaks of something abot what he has no idea... Empire of Good did a lot of brainwashing, and did it well... Didn't want to intervene. Sorry.

Bergstroms books are nice for primary studying of the subject, but they are definitely "for starters" only. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

personal attack...check.
lack of anything substantial...check.


nothing to add.

FPSOLKOR
02-21-2008, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by Bewolf:
personal attack...check.
lack of anything substantial...check.
nothing to add.
Thats not an attack... It's a confirmed fact. Check.
Nothing to add.

luftluuver
02-21-2008, 01:45 PM
Bergtrom ain't balanced by a long shot. He might be for the EF but when it comes to the West, he definitely has an agenda, pro East.

http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/bc-rs/text.html

........................

Bewolf, stop being such a baby. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

FPSOLKOR
02-21-2008, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
Bergtrom ain't balanced by a long shot. He might be for the EF but when it comes to the West, he definitely has an agenda, pro East.

There are some serious problems with EF also, but this was unavoidable - an awful lot of very interesting information was uncovered since the moment when work with first three volumes was finished. As a result, half of the conclusions he came to with information he had at hand are false by now, or at least not so "undisputed" any more.

P.S. Another "Must have" - http://www.aviaeology.com/DoBW.html

leitmotiv
02-21-2008, 03:14 PM
David M. Glantz is the number one expert on the Soviet WWII military in the West. Do a search on Amazon---he has produced an enormous number of books recently. He was the former top U.S. Army "Sovietologist" when he was in the military, and has done a great deal of documentary research in Russia. He has chapters on the Soviet air arm, and on air operations.

BWaltteri
02-22-2008, 03:03 AM
I do believe that Kozhedub and Pokryshin were just as good as their fame indicates. Russians had some really good pilots but they were not given a proper chance to shine until late in the war.

Probably in the first years of war, it was the communism that didn't want to create similar ace mythology as had happened in the West.

Russians have been underrated in the West during the Cold War, but also during the Soviet Union they were wastly overrated by themselves. The accounts seemed to be quite from different planets.

Pirschjaeger
02-22-2008, 03:39 AM
Originally posted by FPSOLKOR:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bewolf:
Considering Stalin directly and indirectly killed of more ppl then Hitler ever did, I'd be cautious about what you write in regards to sacrifice and heroics. It's a thin line to walk.
I'd be damn! another fool speaks of something abot what he has no idea... Empire of Good did a lot of brainwashing, and did it well... Didn't want to intervene. Sorry.

Bergstroms books are nice for primary studying of the subject, but they are definitely "for starters" only.

There are books available in Russian that are by far better in terms of reliability. No idea when or if they will ever be translated to other languages. But I would highly recomend Rastrenin and Perov.
http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9781846032967
Here is a book in Russian, which does not need any translation
ISBN: 978-5-699-20526-4
Sample (scroll down):
http://www.my-shop.ru/_files/product/pdf/274552.pdf

P/S/ I'm not happy with official GPW history books (neither published in the East or West) published during 1953-2000. Only lately we started recieving interesting books. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It helps to back up claims:

Joseph Stalin, leader of the Soviet Union, set in motion events designed to cause a famine in the Ukraine to destroy the people there seeking independence from his rule. As a result, an estimated 7,000,000 persons perished in this farming area, known as the breadbasket of Europe, with the people deprived of the food they had grown with their own hands.

The Ukrainian independence movement actually predated the Stalin era. Ukraine, which measures about the size of France, had been under the domination of the Imperial Czars of Russia for 200 years. With the collapse of the Czarist rule in March 1917, it seemed the long-awaited opportunity for independence had finally arrived. Optimistic Ukrainians declared their country to be an independent People's Republic and re-established the ancient capital city of Kiev as the seat of government.

However, their new-found freedom was short-lived. By the end of 1917, Vladimir Lenin, the first leader of the Soviet Union, sought to reclaim all of the areas formerly controlled by the Czars, especially the fertile Ukraine. As a result, four years of chaos and conflict followed in which Ukrainian national troops fought against Lenin's Red Army, and also against Russia's White Army (troops still loyal to the Czar) as well as other invading forces including the Germans and Poles.

By 1921, the battles ended with a Soviet victory while the western part of the Ukraine was divided-up among Poland, Romania, and Czechoslovakia. The Soviets immediately began shipping out huge amounts of grain to feed the hungry people of Moscow and other big Russian cities. Coincidentally, a drought occurred in the Ukraine, resulting in widespread starvation and a surge of popular resentment against Lenin and the Soviets.

To lessen the deepening resentment, Lenin relaxed his grip on the country, stopped taking out so much grain, and even encouraged a free-market exchange of goods. This breath of fresh air renewed the people's interest in independence and resulted in a national revival movement celebrating their unique folk customs, language, poetry, music, arts, and Ukrainian orthodox religion.

But when Lenin died in 1924, he was succeeded by Joseph Stalin, one of the most ruthless humans ever to hold power. To Stalin, the burgeoning national revival movement and continuing loss of Soviet influence in the Ukraine was completely unacceptable. To crush the people's free spirit, he began to employ the same methods he had successfully used within the Soviet Union. Thus, beginning in 1929, over 5,000 Ukrainian scholars, scientists, cultural and religious leaders were arrested after being falsely accused of plotting an armed revolt. Those arrested were either shot without a trial or deported to prison camps in remote areas of Russia.

Stalin also imposed the Soviet system of land management known as collectivization. This resulted in the seizure of all privately owned farmlands and livestock, in a country where 80 percent of the people were traditional village farmers. Among those farmers, were a class of people called Kulaks by the Communists. They were formerly wealthy farmers that had owned 24 or more acres, or had employed farm workers. Stalin believed any future insurrection would be led by the Kulaks, thus he proclaimed a policy aimed at "liquidating the Kulaks as a class."

Declared "enemies of the people," the Kulaks were left homeless and without a single possession as everything was taken from them, even their pots and pans. It was also forbidden by law for anyone to aid dispossessed Kulak families. Some researchers estimate that ten million persons were thrown out of their homes, put on railroad box cars and deported to "special settlements" in the wilderness of Siberia during this era, with up to a third of them perishing amid the frigid living conditions. Men and older boys, along with childless women and unmarried girls, also became slave-workers in Soviet-run mines and big industrial projects.

Back in the Ukraine, once-proud village farmers were by now reduced to the level of rural factory workers on large collective farms. Anyone refusing to participate in the compulsory collectivization system was simply denounced as a Kulak and deported.

A propaganda campaign was started utilizing eager young Communist activists who spread out among the country folk attempting to shore up the people's support for the Soviet regime. However, their attempts failed. Despite the propaganda, ongoing coercion and threats, the people continued to resist through acts of rebellion and outright sabotage. They burned their own homes rather than surrender them. They took back their property, tools and farm animals from the collectives, harassed and even assassinated local Soviet authorities. This ultimately put them in direct conflict with the power and authority of Joseph Stalin.

Soviet troops and secret police were rushed in to put down the rebellion. They confronted rowdy farmers by firing warning shots above their heads. In some cases, however, they fired directly at the people. Stalin's secret police (GPU, predecessor of the KGB) also went to work waging a campaign of terror designed to break the people's will. GPU squads systematically attacked and killed uncooperative farmers.
Maps and Photo
Present day map of Russia showing the location of the Ukraine (highlighted in green).
Present day map of Ukraine.

A World War II era photo of Soviet leader Joseph Stalin (on right) with top aide Viachislav Molotov who helped implement the 1932-33 famine policy in the Ukraine.

But the resistance continued. The people simply refused to become cogs in the Soviet farm machine and remained stubbornly determined to return to their pre-Soviet farming lifestyle. Some refused to work at all, leaving the wheat and oats to rot in unharvested fields. Once again, they were placing themselves in conflict with Stalin.

In Moscow, Stalin responded to their unyielding defiance by dictating a policy that would deliberately cause mass starvation and result in the deaths of millions.

By mid 1932, nearly 75 percent of the farms in the Ukraine had been forcibly collectivized. On Stalin's orders, mandatory quotas of foodstuffs to be shipped out to the Soviet Union were drastically increased in August, October and again in January 1933, until there was simply no food remaining to feed the people of the Ukraine.

Much of the hugely abundant wheat crop harvested by the Ukrainians that year was dumped on the foreign market to generate cash to aid Stalin's Five Year Plan for the modernization of the Soviet Union and also to help finance his massive military buildup. If the wheat had remained in the Ukraine, it was estimated to have been enough to feed all of the people there for up to two years.

Ukrainian Communists urgently appealed to Moscow for a reduction in the grain quotas and also asked for emergency food aid. Stalin responded by denouncing them and rushed in over 100,000 fiercely loyal Russian soldiers to purge the Ukrainian Communist Party. The Soviets then sealed off the borders of the Ukraine, preventing any food from entering, in effect turning the country into a gigantic concentration camp. Soviet police troops inside the Ukraine also went house to house seizing any stored up food, leaving farm families without a morsel. All food was considered to be the "sacred" property of the State. Anyone caught stealing State property, even an ear of corn or stubble of wheat, could be shot or imprisoned for not less than ten years.

Mothers in the countryside sometimes tossed their emaciated children onto passing railroad cars traveling toward cities such as Kiev in the hope someone there would take pity. But in the cities, children and adults who had already flocked there from the countryside were dropping dead in the streets, with their bodies carted away in horse-drawn wagons to be dumped in mass graves. Occasionally, people lying on the sidewalk who were thought to be dead, but were actually still alive, were also carted away and buried.

While police and Communist Party officials remained quite well fed, desperate Ukrainians ate leaves off bushes and trees, killed dogs, cats, frogs, mice and birds then cooked them. Others, gone mad with hunger, resorted to cannibalism, with parents sometimes even eating their own children.

Meanwhile, nearby Soviet-controlled granaries were said to be bursting at the seams from huge stocks of 'reserve' grain, which had not yet been shipped out of the Ukraine. In some locations, grain and potatoes were piled in the open, protected by barbed wire and armed GPU guards who shot down anyone attempting to take the food. Farm animals, considered necessary for production, were allowed to be fed, while the people living among them had absolutely nothing to eat.

By the spring of 1933, the height of the famine, an estimated 25,000 persons died every day in the Ukraine. Entire villages were perishing. In Europe, America and Canada, persons of Ukrainian descent and others responded to news reports of the famine by sending in food supplies. But Soviet authorities halted all food shipments at the border. It was the official policy of the Soviet Union to deny the existence of a famine and thus to refuse any outside assistance. Anyone claiming that there was in fact a famine was accused of spreading anti-Soviet propaganda. Inside the Soviet Union, a person could be arrested for even using the word 'famine' or 'hunger' or 'starvation' in a sentence.

The Soviets bolstered their famine denial by duping members of the foreign press and international celebrities through carefully staged photo opportunities in the Soviet Union and the Ukraine. The writer George Bernard Shaw, along with a group of British socialites, visited the Soviet Union and came away with a favorable impression which he disseminated to the world. Former French Premier Edouard Herriot was given a five-day stage-managed tour of the Ukraine, viewing spruced-up streets in Kiev and inspecting a 'model' collective farm. He also came away with a favorable impression and even declared there was indeed no famine.

Back in Moscow, six British engineers working in the Soviet Union were arrested and charged with sabotage, espionage and bribery, and threatened with the death penalty. The sensational show trial that followed was actually a cynical ruse to deflect the attention of foreign journalists from the famine. Journalists were warned they would be shut out of the trial completely if they wrote news stories about the famine. Most of the foreign press corp yielded to the Soviet demand and either didn't cover the famine or wrote stories sympathetic to the official Soviet propaganda line that it didn't exist. Among those was Pulitzer Prize winning reporter Walter Duranty of the New York Times who sent one dispatch stating "...all talk of famine now is ridiculous."

Outside the Soviet Union, governments of the West adopted a passive attitude toward the famine, although most of them had become aware of the true suffering in the Ukraine through confidential diplomatic channels. In November 1933, the United States, under its new president, Franklin D. Roosevelt, even chose to formally recognized Stalin's Communist government and also negotiated a sweeping new trade agreement. The following year, the pattern of denial in the West culminated with the admission of the Soviet Union into the League of Nations.

Stalin's Five Year Plan for the modernization of the Soviet Union depended largely on the purchase of massive amounts of manufactured goods and technology from Western nations. Those nations were unwilling to disrupt lucrative trade agreements with the Soviet Union in order to pursue the matter of the famine.

By the end of 1933, nearly 25 percent of the population of the Ukraine, including three million children, had perished. The Kulaks as a class were destroyed and an entire nation of village farmers had been laid low. With his immediate objectives now achieved, Stalin allowed food distribution to resume inside the Ukraine and the famine subsided. However, political persecutions and further round-ups of 'enemies' continued unchecked in the years following the famine, interrupted only in June 1941 when Nazi troops stormed into the country. Hitler's troops, like all previous invaders, arrived in the Ukraine to rob the breadbasket of Europe and simply replaced one reign of terror with another.

End

Many would call this the tip of the iceberg. Need I post more or is the Ukraine point enough?

Fritz

csThor
02-22-2008, 03:47 AM
The problem I have with russian works is ... well ... the russian language (how surprising http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif). It's a pity that a lot of modern works by russian historians do not find their way into the west via english translations. For example a russian poster posted excerpts of Oleg Rastrenin's book "*асколотое небо. Май-июнь 1943 года" which deals with soviet operations prior to "Citadel". This is a topic and timeframe which is hardly present in literature but which I find very interesting. As it is there's only Bergstrm who does the subject of Air War on the Eastern Front justice in my eyes (in languages I understand, that is).

Maybe it really takes a russian native to write decent books about the VVS of WW2. I do own both the "Yakovlev Aces" and "LaGG and Lavotchkin Aces" of the Osprey line and quite frankly I find them not only shallow but partially unreliable and unbelievable. For example the LaGG/La book contains the story of a pilot - directly taken from official archives according to the publisher - which is so ridiculous and easy to refute that it isn't funny anymore. It certainly sheds a bad light on the Osprey line as a whole ... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Pirschjaeger
02-22-2008, 03:58 AM
Russians no doubt have had the same problem the Chinese have had. Their history is distorted in order to inspire national pride. When you haven't food nor heat to give your people, feed them pride.

IMHO this is a real shame and such a great loss. The Russians had some ingenious people but not so many survived Stalin and his goonies. The same can be said of China. Mao and his goonies killed so many, even more than Stalin, placing Stalin as #2 in the list of mass murderers.

The problem with getting the details about Stalin's work is that he was one of the Allies MVPs. His deeds were often covered up. (Katyn Forest).

The truth and the whole truth eventually surfaces.

Fritz

BWaltteri
02-22-2008, 04:06 AM
Just a though about Stalin and Hitler things...

I don't know should we bring either's crimes explicitely into discussion if we are going to discuss about the armies only. The elite troops of the both sides anyway had better use than to threaten civilians.

It happens way too often that when we start talking about the German army we hear "Oh, the Nazis and Hitler were so evil", and likewise talking about the Russian army "Oh, the Communism killed many more people than Nazism".

- There were plenty of Germans who only did the military business, and also a lot of Russians who didn't mess up with Stalin's policies.

Bewolf
02-22-2008, 04:22 AM
Originally posted by BWaltteri:
Just a though about Stalin and Hitler things...

I don't know should we bring either's crimes explicitely into discussion if we are going to discuss about the armies only. The elite troops of the both sides anyway had better use than to threaten civilians.

It happens way too often that when we start talking about the German army we hear "Oh, the Nazis and Hitler were so evil", and likewise talking about the Russian army "Oh, the Communism killed many more people than Nazism".

- There were plenty of Germans who only did the military business, and also a lot of Russians who didn't mess up with Stalin's policies.

touch. good point.
It is a pretty much common knowldge that it hardly ever were the frontline units, both in Germany and Russia, doing the bad stuff. It were the follow up units most of the times.

Pirschjaeger
02-22-2008, 04:26 AM
Originally posted by BWaltteri:
Just a though about Stalin and Hitler things...

I don't know should we bring either's crimes explicitely into discussion if we are going to discuss about the armies only. The elite troops of the both sides anyway had better use than to threaten civilians.

It happens way too often that when we start talking about the German army we hear "Oh, the Nazis and Hitler were so evil", and likewise talking about the Russian army "Oh, the Communism killed many more people than Nazism".

- There were plenty of Germans who only did the military business, and also a lot of Russians who didn't mess up with Stalin's policies.

I agree. My post wasn't about who did the worst. It was about the reply/personal attack on another member.

Each AF had great pilots and great victories. This cannot be argued (excluding Italy).

joeap
02-22-2008, 04:53 AM
Darn this will go off topic, I really wanted to discuss the relative role of the VVS in WWII.

First of all let's get one thing clear.

When we compare Hitler and Stalin and the deaths they caused, we have to distinguish the war and the period before the war.

It is clear that during the war, the Nazis were responsible for more deaths, especially civilian, than the Communists.

There has been some research since the archives opened that throw some doubt as to the deliberate nature of the famine in Ukraine.

There was a famine, in fact several early in Soviet history. I am also very aware of the fact the 1930s famine was denied by the Soviet authorities, which is reprehensible, but then they covered up other accidents and disasters as have other governments including our own.

Some recent work seems to indicate that the famine was not limited to Ukraine, and that it was more a systemic matter of poor organisation and the fact the USSR was still a developing country. Two names I can throw (one with writings you can peruse at your leisure) are Mark Tauger and J. Arch Getty. Both are American historians and neither are Communist apologists nor either nationalists of some stripe or extreme anti-Communists as some who have written on the subject. A lot of the suffering was similar to the suffering that occurred with industrialization in Western Europe (the initial capital came from the slave trade) and things like the enclosures etc.

I won't write much more on this post since it probably will be pointless to lay out the case, just read the links and decide for yourself.

Tauger's writing on Soviet agriculture and famines and other famines (http://www.as.wvu.edu/history/Faculty/Tauger/soviet.htm)

Getty's Wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Arch_Getty)

Uni Page (http://www.history.ucla.edu/people/faculty?lid=651)

joeap
02-22-2008, 04:57 AM
Back to the OP. It is sad that "official histories" are the best known in the West, actually many of the specialised Soviet studies done by the Soviet military had a lot of useful analysis and information, and far less ideological content.

A good site with works in translation:

RedArmystudies (http://www.redarmystudies.net/)

Chris0382
02-22-2008, 05:55 AM
I agree Satlin was quite evil in his own right Bewolf ; but his existance or deeds do not erase the heroics of the Russian people as they had to band together under a common cause and throw back Hitler's armies.