PDA

View Full Version : How to out-turn an emil with a P-39 using CEM



XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 06:01 PM
S!

I found this at 2GvSAP Forum. Thought it was a nice post about P-39 Tactics and has a track for you to download and get your views comments on /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Okay, to show a little thing I figured out using CEM and Air Combat Manuevering (ACM), I picked one of the best Hun turners, the 109/E4 (1940 Emil) vs. the P-39N (with 100% fuel).
The Emil is a Veteran AI in QMB.

First, picture if you will an oval or egg shape formed by a ribbon, viewed from above at it sits parallel to the ground. The long arc on the bottom is 80-90% prop pitch (rpms), the long sides 90-100%, and the short arc being 35-65% prop pitch. Make it slightly boat shaped with the arcs slightly raised up.

That egg shape is what we're going to be flying - not a nice, clean turning circle that the AI (and most online guys) likes to fly. I don't know if this is the "horizontal yo-yo" that Andy Bush wrote about, but it's what I envisioned when I read it, and it seems to work out.

We're going to enter into the broad arc in your standard turn, wingtip down, stick back, 100% throttle, 100% prop pitch. But when we feel the other guy out-turning us, we're going to reduce that prop pitch right on down to about 70% (but keep that throttle high to have power in reserve), and have that arc tighten up. Once we establish we're solid to keep the stall or spin away, we're going to chop that prop pitch right on down to 40%, easing that stick just a little bit more back.

We can do this because we've slowed down just a tad, and the sim restricts stick limits by speed (that's why trim lets you turn quicker - it pulls your stick back for you, changing the center position).

If we start to black out, we're not going to change stick position too much, we're going to increase prop pitch to 80 or 90 percent, and let the engine pull us out of our turn and lower the g's, as we're gently riding the edge of blackout, and all we need to do is limit it a touch to keep us in the envelope of vision.

Now, the thing is to not let your speed drop below 230 KPH, but to increase prop pitch and widen the arc out a bit and then tighten it back up again when we regain airspeed.

It's a bit like the kid game of crack-the-whip - the idea is to sort of slingshot yourself around a center point as if on a rubber band in an elliptical manner. A horizontal yo-yo, if you will, trading speed for turn and building up energy to release it, or releasing it so we can build it up again.

We're also going to raise the ends of that egg shaped ribbon, taking a very slight nose up aspect - the higher the prop pitch, the more nose up - but really not to exceed 20 degrees above the horizon.

AT NO TIME DOES THE RUDDER FIGURE IN TO THIS - IT STEALS FAR TOO MUCH ENERGY AND WILL ONLY PUT YOU IN HARM'S WAY.

The rudder is only going to be used when the real threat of a stall is present - an emergency tool.

Okay, the track file.

1) Starts out with your standard AI avoidance at the beginning of every QMB mission.

2) Opening moves are primarily to get him on my six, to demonstrate you can shake a TnB aircraft by manuever.

One of the things to remember is that even though we're taking an energy fighter against a turn fighter into his sort of battle, we still have some advantages we shouldn't forget - namely, that our engine is more powerful than his in most cases, and so we can out-power them.

I posted in an earlier thread that RPM changes are much more responsive than throttle changes - which means that if he's working the gas pedal and we're working the prop pitch we can out-accelerate him!

3) With him on my low five at around 500 meters, and accelerating away from him in a gentle (big) arc, I can slowly start to tighten it by dipping my wing just a little more, keeping back pressure, and reducing RPM's. The AI is brainless, but so are most Germans - they look for overt cues as to what you're doing, such as a radical turn, dropping flaps, or chopping the engine throttle all the way when on your tail.

As Soviets, we're more clever than they are, so it's going to be subtle to him - almost invisible. Level the nose to the horizon some, and keep reducing prop pitch to around 40% or so, and you'll see him rise in your cockpit - you're out-turning him without sacrificing a great deal of speed! If he chops throttle, you simply raise RPM's, extend, and maintain your energy state while he gives up his!

4) Once we get him off our six and pretty much on the other side of our "circle," we're going to do some sling-shot action, rotating about half a circle and then increasing our prop pitch - easing the turn a bit - elongating the arc and increasing speed - for another half circle.

It's important that you not change altitude too much during this, as we want him to stay in a horizontal fight

5) We drop the prop pitch back down, and the circle tightens again.

Think about it - a wide turn followed by a tighter turn without changing our airspeed or altitude too much - an egg in the sky!

6) When the enemy senses that he's losing the turn fight, he'll change tactics (true for both AI and humans). Always use these transisition phases to gain altitude, even if it's by a shallow climb. You just get more options that way!

7) I used the roll to turn rather than the elevators to perform a reverse, a high yo-yo that was almost a split-S.

It's not easy, especially since we're all used to using the throttle to control airspeed and power; indeed, you do need to use the throttle somewhat.

In the track you'll see where I made a few mistakes in this area - and the immediate disadvantage I put myself in because of it.

A) I chopped the throttle because I was too aggressive at one point, and wanted a direct line to the enemy, rather than sticking to the plan of out manuevering him.

B) I played the scissors game with a turn fighter at low altitude, and got hits on me because of it. I should have rolled out, extended, and set up for a new attack. I had a much higher energy state than he did and pretty much gave it away.

C) Hammerheads are dumb, as they make you a stationary target in the sky - I was lucky he couldn't take advantage of it.

Anyhoo, here's the track:

http://2gvsap.org/dart/outturn_emil_with_P39.ntrk

It ain't perfect, and I did a minimum of messing with views, so there's both good and bad in there.

Never said I was good at this flight sim stuff, just struggling harder than most to reach average

Here is the link to the forum on this Post.
http://www.2gvsap.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=734

Check it out..It is a ntrk file..play it on IL-2 Track.

Falcon



<center>http://777AVG.com/sigs/sig07.gif </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 06:01 PM
S!

I found this at 2GvSAP Forum. Thought it was a nice post about P-39 Tactics and has a track for you to download and get your views comments on /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Okay, to show a little thing I figured out using CEM and Air Combat Manuevering (ACM), I picked one of the best Hun turners, the 109/E4 (1940 Emil) vs. the P-39N (with 100% fuel).
The Emil is a Veteran AI in QMB.

First, picture if you will an oval or egg shape formed by a ribbon, viewed from above at it sits parallel to the ground. The long arc on the bottom is 80-90% prop pitch (rpms), the long sides 90-100%, and the short arc being 35-65% prop pitch. Make it slightly boat shaped with the arcs slightly raised up.

That egg shape is what we're going to be flying - not a nice, clean turning circle that the AI (and most online guys) likes to fly. I don't know if this is the "horizontal yo-yo" that Andy Bush wrote about, but it's what I envisioned when I read it, and it seems to work out.

We're going to enter into the broad arc in your standard turn, wingtip down, stick back, 100% throttle, 100% prop pitch. But when we feel the other guy out-turning us, we're going to reduce that prop pitch right on down to about 70% (but keep that throttle high to have power in reserve), and have that arc tighten up. Once we establish we're solid to keep the stall or spin away, we're going to chop that prop pitch right on down to 40%, easing that stick just a little bit more back.

We can do this because we've slowed down just a tad, and the sim restricts stick limits by speed (that's why trim lets you turn quicker - it pulls your stick back for you, changing the center position).

If we start to black out, we're not going to change stick position too much, we're going to increase prop pitch to 80 or 90 percent, and let the engine pull us out of our turn and lower the g's, as we're gently riding the edge of blackout, and all we need to do is limit it a touch to keep us in the envelope of vision.

Now, the thing is to not let your speed drop below 230 KPH, but to increase prop pitch and widen the arc out a bit and then tighten it back up again when we regain airspeed.

It's a bit like the kid game of crack-the-whip - the idea is to sort of slingshot yourself around a center point as if on a rubber band in an elliptical manner. A horizontal yo-yo, if you will, trading speed for turn and building up energy to release it, or releasing it so we can build it up again.

We're also going to raise the ends of that egg shaped ribbon, taking a very slight nose up aspect - the higher the prop pitch, the more nose up - but really not to exceed 20 degrees above the horizon.

AT NO TIME DOES THE RUDDER FIGURE IN TO THIS - IT STEALS FAR TOO MUCH ENERGY AND WILL ONLY PUT YOU IN HARM'S WAY.

The rudder is only going to be used when the real threat of a stall is present - an emergency tool.

Okay, the track file.

1) Starts out with your standard AI avoidance at the beginning of every QMB mission.

2) Opening moves are primarily to get him on my six, to demonstrate you can shake a TnB aircraft by manuever.

One of the things to remember is that even though we're taking an energy fighter against a turn fighter into his sort of battle, we still have some advantages we shouldn't forget - namely, that our engine is more powerful than his in most cases, and so we can out-power them.

I posted in an earlier thread that RPM changes are much more responsive than throttle changes - which means that if he's working the gas pedal and we're working the prop pitch we can out-accelerate him!

3) With him on my low five at around 500 meters, and accelerating away from him in a gentle (big) arc, I can slowly start to tighten it by dipping my wing just a little more, keeping back pressure, and reducing RPM's. The AI is brainless, but so are most Germans - they look for overt cues as to what you're doing, such as a radical turn, dropping flaps, or chopping the engine throttle all the way when on your tail.

As Soviets, we're more clever than they are, so it's going to be subtle to him - almost invisible. Level the nose to the horizon some, and keep reducing prop pitch to around 40% or so, and you'll see him rise in your cockpit - you're out-turning him without sacrificing a great deal of speed! If he chops throttle, you simply raise RPM's, extend, and maintain your energy state while he gives up his!

4) Once we get him off our six and pretty much on the other side of our "circle," we're going to do some sling-shot action, rotating about half a circle and then increasing our prop pitch - easing the turn a bit - elongating the arc and increasing speed - for another half circle.

It's important that you not change altitude too much during this, as we want him to stay in a horizontal fight

5) We drop the prop pitch back down, and the circle tightens again.

Think about it - a wide turn followed by a tighter turn without changing our airspeed or altitude too much - an egg in the sky!

6) When the enemy senses that he's losing the turn fight, he'll change tactics (true for both AI and humans). Always use these transisition phases to gain altitude, even if it's by a shallow climb. You just get more options that way!

7) I used the roll to turn rather than the elevators to perform a reverse, a high yo-yo that was almost a split-S.

It's not easy, especially since we're all used to using the throttle to control airspeed and power; indeed, you do need to use the throttle somewhat.

In the track you'll see where I made a few mistakes in this area - and the immediate disadvantage I put myself in because of it.

A) I chopped the throttle because I was too aggressive at one point, and wanted a direct line to the enemy, rather than sticking to the plan of out manuevering him.

B) I played the scissors game with a turn fighter at low altitude, and got hits on me because of it. I should have rolled out, extended, and set up for a new attack. I had a much higher energy state than he did and pretty much gave it away.

C) Hammerheads are dumb, as they make you a stationary target in the sky - I was lucky he couldn't take advantage of it.

Anyhoo, here's the track:

http://2gvsap.org/dart/outturn_emil_with_P39.ntrk

It ain't perfect, and I did a minimum of messing with views, so there's both good and bad in there.

Never said I was good at this flight sim stuff, just struggling harder than most to reach average

Here is the link to the forum on this Post.
http://www.2gvsap.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=734

Check it out..It is a ntrk file..play it on IL-2 Track.

Falcon



<center>http://777AVG.com/sigs/sig07.gif </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 07:13 PM
Easiest way is to firewall the throttle, the emil will never catch you.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I/JG1 Oesau (http://jg1-oesau.org) is recruiting. Join us!

Stab.I/JG1Death at HL, Maj_Death at Ubi.com

At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 07:20 PM
Hey, cool, I wrote that!

Well, you are correct in that the BEST way to deal with a slower aircraft with a faster one is to BnZ - but in order to demonstrate how CEM can really make you shine, I took it to the extreme.

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 07:35 PM
S! BA_Bart

I know you did...sorry forgot to put your name on it. Thought it was a good post about the P-39.

Falcon

<center>http://777AVG.com/sigs/sig07.gif </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 09:23 PM
LOL, I didn't mean that in the "hey, dipwad, you didn't give me credit" way, but in the "hey, cool, somebody found that useful!" sort of way!

No apology required - heck, you linked to the original thread.

It's a real thrill to see a 777 member finding something I wrote useful - the P-39 missions your squadron put up for the original IL-2 were a gold mine for me!

Any time I can assist a 777 is a good time.

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 09:28 PM
BA_Dart wrote:

-
- It's a real thrill to see a 777 member finding
- something I wrote useful - the P-39 missions your
- squadron put up for the original IL-2 were a gold
- mine for me!


Hey, I made many of those missions! But, then I turned evil.

I have a lot more since then Dart. We will get a collection going on the 7Jg77 site eventually. I'll post it when we do.

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 09:46 PM
S! Bart

No problem my friend. I found it useful using Prop Pitch as another way to get Jerrie alot faster...hehehe

Take care

Falcon

<center>http://777AVG.com/sigs/sig07.gif </center>