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FatBoyHK
12-14-2004, 01:08 AM
As some of you here may know, i started flying online since last week, and I ride on a Mustang almost exclusively. I have some questions and I hope some experts can offer some help for me.

Basically, I have no problem preserving my life, I can fly for hours without a single hit from enemy fighters. However, in the majority of my flying time, I am actually running for my life... and the majority of my kills are those who didn't know about my presence until I fired my first shot. My kill-death ratio is about 10:1, and my kill rate is about 1 per sorties (25% fuel). Not too bad but by no mean brillant. I know I must be doing something wrong, especially when I watch (in shock and awe http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif) some fellow Mustang pilots killing 5 per sorties.... Here is some detail about my problems.

1. co-alt, I am slight faster and coming from behind, at 200 - 300 MPH speed range. My shot didn't kill him, and he started evasing. Because I am slightly faster I will overshoot, and after that he will be on my six....although he is not in range, in most case he will not give up chasing me and I need to disengage by diving away, or fly 10+ minutes in a full throttle, level flight. So is there any better alternative? Should I slow down and have a longer shooting time, or possibly turn / barrel roll with him for a short period? Or should I zoom up even I don't have significantly E adv?

2. co-alt, I am slightly faster, but he is on my six, out of shoot range but not so far away. What can I do instead of just running away? I may not know what kind of plane he is flying, so starting a turnfight may not be a good gamble. I don't have a significant E adv, and zooming up may be a fatal move.

3. co-alt, co-E, head on with some seperation. what are my options? Turn into him after merge may be the worst move. I tried BnZ / loop approaches, and seem my enemies are always be able to force head-to-head shot... basically like rolling a dice, but I would be in disadv due to his cannon.

I read Shaw's book some months ago, and IIRC he suggest disengaging for all three of the cases above (shoot and then disengage in case one). But his suggestions are based on a pure-BnZ vs pure-TnB planes match-up, and I think there are still plenty of turning ability to be expoiled in a Mustang, especially in high speed. I hope fellow Mustang pilots can give me some enlightment.

VFA-195 Snacky
12-14-2004, 01:29 AM
I primarily fly the P38, but my wingies to fly the Stang from time to time.
Your biggest advantage as you know already is speed, but be carefull on the pullout. Best to use trim to pull out or pull slowly so you keep your wings in tact.
Sometimes it may look like the target you are diving on has gotten in position and following you, but truth is if you pass him at 650kph to 700kph while he is only flying at 450kph to 500kph you have a lot more Energy than he does and although he may be able to pull nose up and follow for a short distance he will not follow for long.
Sometimes if they follow I will zoom climb and force them to commit then hammerhead over and chase them down. Be carefull though. This tactic is good if you have E and just 1v1, but in a furball with other bad guys around you want to maintain high speed and shallow climb outs. There is no shame in extending to gain a better position. FW190 pilots live or die by this tactic and when going against more agile aircraft Speed is your only advantage, use it. They will try to type chat messages to goat you into turning around and fighting on thier terms but dicipline yourself to fight your fight on your terms.
2nd thing you can do is stop worrying about points. The ones worried about Points are the LA7 and KI84 weenies. Just fly your plane the best you can and the points will come. Because of the weak .50 cal ammunition in this game I recommend setting a convergence of 200-220 and go for the engine or canopy. I see Mustangs getting high points sometimes and there are some very good Pony drivers out there, but keep in mind I can fly around in a KI and rack up 2000 points then hop in a Stang and still have 2000 points.lol
There is a lot of kill stealing online and as I already mentioned its almost impossible to get a clean kill on one pass with 50 cals. Planes with Cannons like the 109s and Spits can destroy a plane and move on to another while a Mustang must shoot and shoot and shoot to just get an engine on fire. Then while you think you have a kill some yahoo in a KI decides to blast your wounded target with a couple of cannon shells and take that well earned kill away from you. That's life online when you fly US aircraft.

Abbuzze
12-14-2004, 01:58 AM
All the conclusions you made are correct, you sit in a fast and good plane, so use your advantages and fly away from him or let another guy pick him up... If you start to turn- hmm I like it in my old outdated G10- you will be dead meat very soon. These guys usualy apears in my kill list very soon.
The 0.50 are even in this patch strong enough to cripple a plane, especialy the 109 (I know cause even a few hits cost a lot of lift at a wing) so even if the planes seems not to be destoyed the 109 driver may bail or crah or leave his plane cause his engine will stop cause of overheat.

FatBoyHK
12-14-2004, 02:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VFA-195 Snacky:
Sometimes it may look like the target you are diving on has gotten in position and following you, but truth is if you pass him at 650kph to 700kph while he is only flying at 450kph to 500kph you have a lot more Energy than he does and although he may be able to pull nose up and follow for a short distance he will not follow for long. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup I have no problem if I am in a highly favorable situtation like this one. But what if I am just 50 - 100 kph faster?

SithSpeeder
12-14-2004, 07:51 AM
It all depends....

From what I've seen online, the best 51 drivers have superior gunnery skills and won't engage at co-E situations. Furthermore, they have wingmen who look out for them and vice-versa.


To try to address your questions, if you are going it alone:
Case 1. Barrell roll, stay above, preserve the E. Never overshoot in front...overshoot above but still in the rear quadrant. If he drops away low, let him go. If he's still trying to get back at you, use your superior zoom climb and stay above, descending when YOU choose for a snapshot while keeping an eye out for bandits positioning themselves co-E or above (that's when you have to disengage again).

Case 2: I would do what you do.

Case 3: I learned a move from a guy named Ojisan Alpha (a german pilot--great dude) that usually works for me. It's somewhat counterable, but the point is to maintain high E, know your stall and turn speeds, know your flap management, etc., and always stay above. I almost never go toe-to-toe in a Stang against fighters...engine can't take it and the 50s aren't well suited for it.

But even better than all that maverick stuff, find ONE OR MORE wingmen. Stay close enough that you can offer mutual support. Dragging is ridiculously effective in this scenario, especially online when there are so many mavericks. And it's FUN, too (coordinating an attack). Voice comms here are a must.

Oh, if you're at 450 kph or above, I find turning to be advantageous as long as you don't bleed too much E (pull too hard). YOu can then mix in TnB moves from Shaw's book.

Personally, I don't worry about the points or number of personal kills. Team kills are VERY important to me, however. You'll rarely rip a wing off in a Stang, but you have more ammo so you can get more hits. Learn to be efficient with your bullets (re: gunnery).

I'm not an expert, but the Stang is the only ride I fly with regularity so I feel like I can at least offer some advice. Hope that helps.

* _54th_Speeder *

VW-IceFire
12-14-2004, 07:58 AM
I would be disengaging from all of those situations.

If I had altitude and my pursuit was a 109 however, I would probably mix the disengage with a reversal. Dive down, achieve 650 kph, and pull out slowly...so you don't loose a wing. But faster than the 109...because at 650 they have a cement brick for a plane. Then reverse up above them and attack.

FatBoyHK
12-14-2004, 09:22 AM
Speeder your ideas are helpful, I would like to followup:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SithSpeeder:
Case 1. Barrell roll, stay above, preserve the E. Never overshoot in front...overshoot above but still in the rear quadrant.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

by doing this I may need to fire eariler at a greater distance (or for a shorter time), otherwise it may be difficult to aviod a hoitzonal overshoot, as I need some time to pull up. Is it what I am susposed to do?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SithSpeeder:
Case 3: I learned a move from a guy named Ojisan Alpha (a german pilot--great dude) that usually works for me. It's somewhat counterable, but the point is to maintain high E, know your stall and turn speeds, know your flap management, etc., and always stay above.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am interested in this move, any pointer to that?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SithSpeeder:
But even better than all that maverick stuff, find ONE OR MORE wingmen. Stay close enough that you can offer mutual support. Dragging is ridiculously effective in this scenario, especially online when there are so many mavericks. And it's FUN, too (coordinating an attack). Voice comms here are a must.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to agree this. I rarely let a mavericks go in a 2v1 scenario, unless he is diciplined enough and dive for his life. However I am in a different timezone with most of you guy (I am from Hong Kong) and it will be too much disturbence for my family if I hook on TS.... The future is bright, however, as I will move to a new house soon, no more radio silence required http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SithSpeeder:
Oh, if you're at 450 kph or above, I find turning to be advantageous as long as you don't bleed too much E (pull too hard). YOu can then mix in TnB moves from Shaw's book.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know mustang is excellect in high-speed turns, but it is really hard to perform.... I think it is an "art" to turn quick enough to outturn your enemy, but slow enough to aviod blackout, snap roll, and energy bleed. Then on top of that you need to throw in defection shooting, situation awareness, etc...wow....... But it is my problem, practice make perfect. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

FatBoyHK
12-14-2004, 09:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
If I had altitude and my pursuit was a 109 however, I would probably mix the disengage with a reversal. Dive down, achieve 650 kph, and pull out slowly...so you don't loose a wing. But faster than the 109...because at 650 they have a cement brick for a plane. Then reverse up above them and attack. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will definitely give this move a try next time I fly on WC. I must say this is the single most frequent scenario I encountered... In most cases it means a long escape flight, and a even longer flight back to combat alt, and, afterall, less fun for me. With this move, however, I may have some extra surprise up in my slevee.

So this move is not good vs FW? In my limited experience with FW, I think their elevators retain most of their effectiveness in high speed.

knightflyte
12-14-2004, 09:41 AM
Where's Robin Hood? He's the Mustang expert. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

FatBoyHK
12-14-2004, 09:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by knightflyte:
Where's Robin Hood? He's the Mustang expert. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol, that UberAce, I hope he won't come.

Sir.Robin-1337
12-14-2004, 10:47 AM
How to live and own in the P-51D20NA Mustang by Sir.Robin

Chapter 2 - Why your plane is better than his

The Mustang is fast, has excellent elevator authority at high speeds and has enough fire power to bring down any enemy plane. You have one of the highest dive speeds in the game, and your zoom climb is brilliant.
But like the Russian ace Kozedhub once said, If you fly with your gear out, you won't get anywhere.
This stands true o the Mustang. Failiure to raise gear after take off could result in you loosing the fight.

chapter 18 - Radiator

ALWAYS keep your radiator OPEN. If you have to close it, you did something wrong. Leave it open and forget about it.

Chapter 345. - Climbing.

Before even thinking about entering a fight, always KNOW you have the altitude advantage. You can do this by spiral climbing above your airbase.
Reach a minimum of 6,000M or around 20,000FT. There is a very good reason for this.
At 20,000FT the second stage of the super charger kicks up to stage 2. For a few thousand feet below this height, the Mustang is actually loosing manifold pressure.. and thuse loosing power, and the speed advantage.
Be sure when your Manifold pressure jumps back up, the supercharger has kicked up, and you now have the upper hand again.
If you find yourself in combat at 5,600 M you MUST climb until the supercharger kicks up a stage.
Very few planes can catch you above 6,000M. Fact.

Chapter 486 - Dogfighting

You do not dogfight in the Mustang. It wasn't built to dogfight.. it was built as a long range high altitude escort fighter.
The Mustang can dominate a fight low and high but it requires altitude advntage to do this.

Aim to have atleast 5,000FT advantage over your bandit. Initiate the dive when you are high off his 6, and open fire at around 250 m.
Assuming your aim is good, you will cripple his plane. If the bandit is a BF-109 and you see smoke... leave him. He is out of the fight, and his engine will either seize up or run out of fuel.

Once you have fired upon the bandit, you must zoom climb.
If the area is fairly clear, and you wish to reinitiate the attack, you may zoom climb verticaly and hammerhead, dive and repeat.
However, if the area is compromised, keep the zoom climb to around 30 degrees.
Remember a zoom climb is just a climb which a plane could not support under is own power. Thus it doesn't have to be at 90 degrees.
A 30 degree zoom climb will ensure vertical and horizontal seperation.
And when your bandit eventually lands with his smoking engine.. you get 100 points.

Chapter 583 - Running from a bandit

Raise your gear.
Check your altitude and manifold pressure. If possible start a VERY shallow climb to above 6,000M. When at 6,000M, level out and say buh-bye to the enemy.

FatBoyHK
12-14-2004, 11:39 AM
ha, the inevitible things would happened sooner or later, but they ALWAYS happen.

But Sir-Robin, you make some valueable contribution finally, THANKS! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

suggestion for you, you will be more welcomed if you forget about the gear thingy... not everyone can cope with your *really* special sense of humour http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

and about the radiator, can you explain? But indeed I rarely play with radiator on a mustang, i seem to me that it give me nothing but extra workload.

Owlsphone
12-14-2004, 03:13 PM
Wow, Robin are you a changed man?

What was said so far I agree with. I cannot stress gunnery enough though. The .50 cals are a tough weapon to get kills with. Sometimes you can unload on an enemy fighter and nothing happens, while other times a wing will snap off with the slightest burst. The best advice I can give is to not be too picky with your shots. The Mustang has tons of ammo and it is better to miss on that snapshot than to go down in flames wishing you didn't have a full ammo load. You'd be surprised at some of the shots you can make with .50s. There have been countless times where I fired as quickly as I could while a 109 zoomed past my windscreen only to find out I had killed his engine.

The best Mustang pilots that I have seen are not picky shooters. The Mustang is not a LW bird with limited cannon rounds. I am not saying to take the shot at 1 km away either. These are just my experiences, but overall I'd say that gunnery (accuracy and shot choice) are extremely important for 51 drivers.

Edit: About the radiator settings...He means to leave them full open because there is hardly a speed difference between leaving them open and closing them. Surely the cooler engine is worth the couple km/h loss if there is even that many.

SithSpeeder
12-14-2004, 03:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>However I am in a different timezone with most of you guy (I am from Hong Kong) and it will be too much disturbence for my family if I hook on TS.... The future is bright, however, as I will move to a new house soon, no more radio silence required <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What times do you fly? We could hook up depending on which days and times you are usually on (I love WC, too). I realize that you are 8 to 11 hours earlier than the American flyers. Also, buy headphones. If you go USB, you can even choose to send just the voice comms through the headset, hence no problems where you are currently living.

As far as that maneuver goes...it doesn't explain well in text. I have sequence pictures of it, but haven't had time to put it up on my website yet. Keep buggin' me about it, though.

Edit: Owls...what...they have big hands? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I betcha I got ya beat http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

* _54th_Speeder *
Flying the P-51 Darby "D" (using LeadSpitter's excellent polished aluminum as the base)

Jettexas
12-14-2004, 04:58 PM
The above posters are absolutely correct,
(#1) in any overshoot situation just go high, (assuming superior E) if you are above and can turn faster , you own them.If co e or less you are taking a chance but you can usually pull it off simply becuase the enemy will waste time trying to spot you and find an angle to get at you, all of which takes more time than the low plane has-
In any event if you have superior altitude and relatively equal E, you will still hold the upper hand with greater altitude since any manuever they choose to make, they will pay a heavy penalty by pointing thier nose skyward.

Contrary to myth,the Pony is not uber in any respect- especially since the patch, but it is a good "generalist" aircraft, not really super (except at very high altitudes not often encountered online)but just good enough in all areas to be deadly in the right hands.
Another thing to remember about the pony,that has saved me more than once- is that for that First turn (youll only get one of these per engagement)at very high speed it'll beat anything in the game,(they blackout, you dont) but just once...lol So use that 'one trick pony" wisely, you wont get another one...

#2- Just what was said- if space allows shallow climb and leave him in the dust, if space doesnt allow, and hes well inside the comfort zone your obligated to take him on and hope for the best, if you hadnt made an error he wouldnt be on your six in the first place(harsh but true)

#3 Do anything but the predictable "game of chicken" approach I like the Vertical S,
Your in a head on -place your plane in a very shallow dive, close rads,do all that you can to increase speed as you close the distance-you want to be slightly below and moving much much faster at the pass-Imagine an S, you start at the bottom, co alt, head on,as you come into gun range first pull up and to your right in a right shallow climbing turn(chandelle)as he approaches, he will initiate a bank to his left to keep his nose on you , this gets your vulnerable nose pointed away from his machine, and if done just right, his deflection angle is almost impossible if you have enough speed,then at or just before the the pass pull sharply up and bank left, now he has to switch shoulders to maintain a view of you, and you have now climbed above him, assuming he missed at the pass, you are golden, at the top of the S you execute a roll and you have now reversed direction 180 and should be above the enemy flying in the same direction he came from, if he flat banks left or right you are above him and can dive and counter, if he executed a "county fair" loop after the pass you will be off to one side and at a speed advantange as he reaches the top(ususally) if he split s's after the pass he has an even bigger altitude disadvantge to dig himself out of or you can just fly away as he struggles to gain alt..IF he immelmans it fatal , he will have no speed at the top. The only thing you have to do is time it just right so they dont get a critical shot at the pass and they're yours.After that there is no effective counter.(note:actually there is a counter; the smart ones wont turn at the pass..they'll pull #2 above and try to extend...lol but most will take the bait)
The reason this works is that you change both your vertical and horizontal relationship to his plane in a very short time, the enemy will need time to reaquire you in his SA(even with track ir) and those few seconds with the increase in altitude sould be all you need.
Just my 2 cents from a couple of years online, no right or worng way I guess, hope this helps.


S!
96th_Redfish

Owlsphone
12-14-2004, 07:46 PM
SithSpeeder, size 18s...

Nuff said.

LeadSpitter_
12-14-2004, 07:56 PM
abuzzee they made the p51 30kmph slower which is just flatout wrong, also the difference is taking 3 passes to get a kill on late 109k4 or 190 vs german which kill 1 pass every single time.

Huge difference, the p51b d and p38j was faster then the 190a8 and 1096 all altitudes. They are not in this game.

Also the 109s are ridiculous in sustained combat turn high and low speed now. they are easily outturning spit 5 and 9s with ease. The only aircraft that can stay on a 109s tail is the p-39.

Im not saying the 109 shouldnt have a better sustained turn rate over the mustang low speed but not past 560kmph.

monoplanes that outturned the 109g varient series

p11
b239
i16 *low speed only
la *low speed only
yak *low speed only
spit5
spit9
hurricane
p40 b c e m
*?p51 mustang III seen many british tests vs 109g2 varient by the british and swiss
p39
p36
h75
ki43 * low speed only
zeke *low speed only
wildcat


in game the 109s are running circles around spitfires low and highspeed bnz in version 2.04 the 109s could stay with a spit almost equally with 108 cannon in the g6 g10 g14 models, but the 109g2 ran circles around them low speeds but not high speed they froze up how wildcats p40bs hellcats and corsairs are now theres clearly so much wrong and i just hope it gets corrected.

Also most US aircraft increased controls became more responsive highspeed.

There is no doubt flying online with 109s it seems zero challenge you dont have to worry about speed nor e bleed at all infact you find yourself throttling back half the time and still having so much energy to get a simple kill against a much slower aircraft that cannot outdive the insane 900kmph breakup speeds of the 109s now.

I love the 109 and 190s I always have but it seems like no challenge whatso ever flying german at all for me anymore. Im sure you notice it even tho you wont admit it. Your a great stick and wingman and a funny guy so dont take anything i said the wrong way.

Its just what i see online since 3.0, the only plane when flying luft that seems like a close match is the p39 it can kill in 1 pass however its alot slower and sustained turn rate is almost similiar but flaps seem to help the p39 slightly more then the 109s past combat flap.

SithSpeeder
12-14-2004, 11:33 PM
Pretty good description for #3, Jettexas. That's close to what I was taught for avoiding the header.

Owls...dang! Alright, I'll put my puny ol' 17s back in their mid-size life rafts, LOL.

* _54th_Speeder *

...whose wife likes to add when talking with her co-workers or friends who don't know me, "...and he's got size 17 feet!" while raising an eyebrow.

FatBoyHK
12-15-2004, 12:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Owlsphone:
The best advice I can give is to not be too picky with your shots. The Mustang has tons of ammo and it is better to miss on that snapshot than to go down in flames wishing you didn't have a full ammo load. You'd be surprised at some of the shots you can make with .50s. There have been countless times where I fired as quickly as I could while a 109 zoomed past my windscreen only to find out I had killed his engine.

The best Mustang pilots that I have seen are not picky shooters. The Mustang is not a LW bird with limited cannon rounds. I am not saying to take the shot at 1 km away either. These are just my experiences, but overall I'd say that gunnery (accuracy and shot choice) are extremely important for 51 drivers.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I may be a picky shooter you are talking about... If I am at his six I won't start shooting until I am sure I will get really good hit and it is close enough.... it is because I want to keep the element of surprise..... seem the conseqeuence is, I will overshoot very easily... I will try to shoot eariler, see if it can solve my problem

FatBoyHK
12-15-2004, 01:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SithSpeeder:
What times do you fly? We could hook up depending on which days and times you are usually on (I love WC, too). I realize that you are 8 to 11 hours earlier than the American flyers. Also, buy headphones. If you go USB, you can even choose to send just the voice comms through the headset, hence no problems where you are currently living.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have all the HW and SW needed to use TS, all I need is to do is to find the right timeslot to use it so that I won't disturb anyone (especially at night) ... I will try this on this satursday's morning (your friday night) and sunday morning (your satursday night), hope I can wake up early enough http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FatBoyHK
12-15-2004, 01:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jettexas:
Another thing to remember about the pony,that has saved me more than once- is that for that First turn (youll only get one of these per engagement)at very high speed it'll beat anything in the game,(they blackout, you dont) but just once...lol So use that 'one trick pony" wisely, you wont get another one...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, i use it to great effect, a considerable amount of my kill are done in this way.... The enmey is turning into me and the angle off tail is 90 degree (I am facing the top of his plane )I turn slowly, just enough to keep him in view, but not pushing any lead. I would use my uber turn when I am about in range, where I will saddle up for the last time, then pull as much lead as it can, and push the trigger at the same time. Continue to fire until he cut through my flying path and go up in my point of way, with a smoking engine or a dead pilot if I do it right http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

However, I have yet to perfect it as a defense move... seem I spent too much energy, and my enemy know the trick, he withdraw and get me later, when I am slower and lower.... need more practice http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jettexas:
#3 Do anything but the predictable "game of chicken" approach I like the Vertical S,
Your in a head on -place your plane in a very shallow dive, close rads,do all that you can to increase speed as you close the distance-you want to be slightly below and moving much much faster at the pass-Imagine an S, you start at the bottom, co alt, head on,as you come into gun range first pull up and to your right in a right shallow climbing turn(chandelle)as he approaches, he will initiate a bank to his left to keep his nose on you , this gets your vulnerable nose pointed away from his machine, and if done just right, his deflection angle is almost impossible if you have enough speed,then at or just before the the pass pull sharply up and bank left, now he has to switch shoulders to maintain a view of you, and you have now climbed above him, assuming he missed at the pass, you are golden, at the top of the S you execute a roll and you have now reversed direction 180 and should be above the enemy flying in the same direction he came from, if he flat banks left or right you are above him and can dive and counter, if he executed a "county fair" loop after the pass you will be off to one side and at a speed advantange as he reaches the top(ususally) if he split s's after the pass he has an even bigger altitude disadvantge to dig himself out of or you can just fly away as he struggles to gain alt..IF he immelmans it fatal , he will have no speed at the top. The only thing you have to do is time it just right so they dont get a critical shot at the pass and they're yours.After that there is no effective counter.(note:actually there is a counter; the smart ones wont turn at the pass..they'll pull #2 above and try to extend...lol but most will take the bait)
The reason this works is that you change both your vertical and horizontal relationship to his plane in a very short time, the enemy will need time to reaquire you in his SA(even with track ir) and those few seconds with the increase in altitude sould be all you need.
Just my 2 cents from a couple of years online, no right or worng way I guess, hope this helps.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you talking about the same move that SithSpeeder mentioned? Anyway it is very interesting.... will try it definitely. Do you have a track demostrating this move?

Jettexas
12-15-2004, 11:05 AM
HK-

Not sure its the same move exactly but probably similar, If he studied with the Ojisan than chances are hes a former Zone denizen , which is where a bunch of us cut our simming teeth in another, much less entertaining sim..lots of tips and tricks were passed around there back in the day and were pretty widely known.

Understand that -In general , I dont really beleive that flying a fighter can be broken down into a series of scripted moves, its just too complicated and in crowded online airspace theres always someone you wont see, who will get on you and Kaibosh ya as you execute your "perfect move" but you can script certain, common well defined situations and at least give yourself more options...
The vertical S has been working for me for years. It accomplishes three things, 1> Gets your vulnerable inline pointed AWAY from the enemy,2. CHanges your vertical relationship to the enemy VERY quickly, 3. Changes your horizontal orientation to his aircraft very quickly, 2 and 3 force the enemy to reaquire you in his "mental map" this takes a couple of seconds and buys you some options, Ill make a track and post the link when I get out of work.

S!


96th Redfish

PS-The best advice I ve seen yet in this thread is the "Get a wingman" reply, nothing beats 6 more guns and 2 more eyes. lol

VW-IceFire
12-15-2004, 11:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
If I had altitude and my pursuit was a 109 however, I would probably mix the disengage with a reversal. Dive down, achieve 650 kph, and pull out slowly...so you don't loose a wing. But faster than the 109...because at 650 they have a cement brick for a plane. Then reverse up above them and attack. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will definitely give this move a try next time I fly on WC. I must say this is the single most frequent scenario I encountered... In most cases it means a long escape flight, and a even longer flight back to combat alt, and, afterall, less fun for me. With this move, however, I may have some extra surprise up in my slevee.

So this move is not good vs FW? In my limited experience with FW, I think their elevators retain most of their effectiveness in high speed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah against the FW190 its a mixed bag. You may be able to out manuver the FW190 because he'll be fighting the pull up. The FW190, despite excellent high speed elevator response is going to mush into that reversal like a lead weight trying to float at sea. Or, if its a FW190D-9 he may over compensate trying to follow you and black out. So you may be able to use this trick against FW190's as well but your mileage may varry a little more. The thing with Mustang VS FW190 is that the Mustang holds energy better than the FW190 does. Part of this probably has to do with aerodynamics and part of this I think has to do with some wonky modeling on the FW190 side. If you were to do the same thing with a FW190 on your tail...my suggestion is to, on your way back up, do a 90 degree roll and switch your direction on the way up sooner than with the 109. This will force him to, if he wants to follow, use even more of that precious energy that's already being saped like a vampire having desert.

Try it and see what happens. One way or another, the Mustang is probably the best plane at this sort of evasive manuver because its so agile at high speed and so aerodynamic that it can hold onto an advantage.

What not to do is get into a close in evasive manuver like the FW190. Once they get close, on your tail, you have a very poor chance of escaping because your roll rate decreases with speed lost and the Mustang becomes sluggish once you get slow. So try and keep it fast...no matter what.

FatBoyHK
12-15-2004, 11:11 PM
Last night I tried you guys' ideas on WC, I must say they are all very useful.

The high speed reverse move vs 109 is especailly dramatic.... but to use it to its max effect, I need to bait the 109 close enough, otherwise he will be able to follow my upward turn with less G.....but this is quite risky. Nonetheless it is a very useful move.

And I tried to keep myself flying above 20000ft. I didn't aware that, there are actually a lot of planes fighting up there. And at this alt I feel mustang is indeed enjoying some advantage over BF109 and FW109.... even TA152 I feel I don't have much problem with it.

And VS FW190 / TA152, I have much better confidence now. With some E adv I can choose how to fight with it, whether it is Turn fight or E fight. In two occasiona, I intentionally let a lone FW/TA chasing on my tail. I lead him to the corner of the map, while keep my engine cool. When I am quite sure there is no other enemy nearby, I turn back and fight with him.

I choose to fight a downward turning battle, because in this way I can keep my speed high. In the first time I ran this tactics, I almost screwed up, as I blacked out. The second time was much better, I kept myself just under the blackout limit, and slowly, but certainly, I would gain on him, soon I will be on his six. He must be very regret at this moment http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

FatBoyHK
12-15-2004, 11:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Understand that -In general , I dont really beleive that flying a fighter can be broken down into a series of scripted moves, its just too complicated and in crowded online airspace theres always someone you wont see, who will get on you and Kaibosh ya as you execute your "perfect move" but you can script certain, common well defined situations and at least give yourself more options... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't worry, I am fully aware of that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VFA-195 Snacky
12-16-2004, 08:14 AM
Then don't miss! lol if only a few knots faster than your opponant then transfer that to altitude and stay above him.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VFA-195 Snacky:
Sometimes it may look like the target you are diving on has gotten in position and following you, but truth is if you pass him at 650kph to 700kph while he is only flying at 450kph to 500kph you have a lot more Energy than he does and although he may be able to pull nose up and follow for a short distance he will not follow for long. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup I have no problem if I am in a highly favorable situtation like this one. But what if I am just 50 - 100 kph faster? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

VFA-195 Moses
12-16-2004, 05:06 PM
I Fly the Mustang almost exclusively and i also recommend what Snacky and Robin have said the one most important to rememeber is when you do dive i always have some uptrim when i fly so when i do dive it will pull itself out without me having to pull back which increases your E because you are not introducing any pressure on the stabs and they do not break off i have had the stang in a 958kmhr dive and pull out with no problems you just have to remember not to pull back on the stick or it will fall apart.

FatBoyHK
12-16-2004, 10:16 PM
you mentioned trim. I never use trim, unless I am damaged... I have got used to keep my plane flying striaght by pulling or pushing the stick constantly. I would like to ask, in both case I am flying striaght, but if I use the stick instead of the trim, am I inducting some extra drag, that mean I am actually slowing my plane down?

about dive pullout, in one scenario last night I almost lost all of my control surfaces with a dive speed of just 530 MPH, and I haven't even start the pullout yet.... so what I did wrongly? Is it again related to trim?

LStarosta
12-17-2004, 01:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
you mentioned trim. I never use trim, unless I am damaged... I have got used to keep my plane flying striaght by pulling or pushing the stick constantly. I would like to ask, in both case I am flying striaght, but if I use the stick instead of the trim, am I inducting some extra drag, that mean I am actually slowing my plane down?

about dive pullout, in one scenario last night I almost lost all of my control surfaces with a dive speed of just 530 MPH, and I haven't even start the pullout yet.... so what I did wrongly? Is it again related to trim? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why the heck would you be inducing extra drag? Do you know what trim is? It's basically a place holder for the default control surfaces. Therefore you're still using the same control surfaces, it's just that you dont have to strain your hand. Start using trim. Trim is your friend. Instead of pushing hard down on the stick in a high speed BnZ pass you can trim your plane to fly straight at these speeds and concentrate more on your marksmanship instead of jamming the stick forward to stay on target.

FatBoyHK
12-17-2004, 04:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
Why the heck would you be inducing extra drag? Do you know what trim is? It's basically a place holder for the default control surfaces. Therefore you're still using the same control surfaces, it's just that you dont have to strain your hand. Start using trim. Trim is your friend. Instead of pushing hard down on the stick in a high speed BnZ pass you can trim your plane to fly straight at these speeds and concentrate more on your marksmanship instead of jamming the stick forward to stay on target. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

haha, I just want to make sure there is no special modelling being done on trim in this game, of course I know what a trim is. If trim won't make me fly faster, then I would choose not to use it.... Indeed I have very much get used to keep my plane flying striaght all by myself...using trim will actually throw off my aim... and by feeling how hard I need to pull/push to fly striaght, I can immediately tell how fast I am fasting, without looking at the gauge, which is very handy in the heat of combat.... seem it is some bad habit built up after 10 years of simming (you know, at that time, there were no trim control in most games)

LStarosta
12-17-2004, 05:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
Why the heck would you be inducing extra drag? Do you know what trim is? It's basically a place holder for the default control surfaces. Therefore you're still using the same control surfaces, it's just that you dont have to strain your hand. Start using trim. Trim is your friend. Instead of pushing hard down on the stick in a high speed BnZ pass you can trim your plane to fly straight at these speeds and concentrate more on your marksmanship instead of jamming the stick forward to stay on target. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

haha, I just want to make sure there is no special modelling being done on trim in this game, of course I know what a trim is. If trim won't make me fly faster, then I would choose not to use it.... Indeed I have very much get used to keep my plane flying striaght all by myself...using trim will actually throw off my aim... and by feeling how hard I need to pull/push to fly striaght, I can immediately tell how fast I am fasting, without looking at the gauge, which is very handy in the heat of combat.... seem it is some bad habit built up after 10 years of simming (you know, at that time, there were no trim control in most games) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If trim is throwing off your aim, you are using it wrong.

FatBoyHK
12-17-2004, 10:55 PM
No, but thanks for your advice anyway. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif may be one day I will kill my bad habit, but now I don't have any problem landing my shot, and I won't try to fix something that is not broken (unless I am perfect in all other department of skill http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif)

FatBoyHK
12-18-2004, 01:05 PM
Not doing well on WC today, may be experts like to fly on weekend? Don't know, but all of the death I had it was me who screwed up in the first hand.

I must say VonRat taught me a good lesson. I got his tail (in a D9) when he was catching a Mustang in a turnfight @ 8000ft. He seem to be unaware of my presence, until he zoomed up to recover, but at that moment I was already in range. He start to evase like he11 but I think I should have hit one or two times, anyway not a critical hit. Then he started to dive, which I followed. I was closing in fast, but suddenly he broke right. I resisted to tempation to turn with it, because JV44 already fly together. Zoom up may be a better choice, but anyway I checked my six before I do so. Ha, worst case scenario, his wingman (in an A9)is already there, but not yet in range.

OK. Time to diengage. I chose to dive striagh ahead. with my speed, I should be able to escape even with the limited alt i had. But I was wrong, VonRat turned back, and in seconds he caught me. I tried a break turn when he came close enough, but my wing given up...

So what should be the better way to disengage in this scenario? I think if I replay that scenario I will turn left, so there will be a bigger seperation. or may be I should try to follow his turn, and provoke him to play scriror with me, and once he started, I disengage immediately, may be by that way I can have a even better directional difference? Or finally, may be I should try a 30 degree zoom climb?

don't forget his wingmen is following me, But I should have some speed adv. You may say I shouldn't engage in this scenario, but I started it just because I want to save my buddy. And it is too negative to disengage once I see a wingman no matter what.

Von_Rat
12-18-2004, 01:14 PM
i would of ran to that nearby cloud.

if it was the dogfight i think it was.

anyway goodfight, i was there with sikira and rall, both great fw drivers. in a situation like that i think you are correct with the answer,,, don't engage in the first place.

FatBoyHK
12-18-2004, 01:34 PM
Oh, I got the best person to answer my question http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Yes the cloud may be the best way to go... If I realized the danger earlier I will did so, but indeed, when I started disengaging I thought no one could possibly catch me... hehe, I was stupid http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif.

But indeed, I don't think I will let you go unstratched that time, if it is 1v1 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif hehe, pls forgive me, I am just a starter, give me some time to learn.

have a good fight next time, hope I will give you a more enteraining fight (instead of breaking my wing by myself, lol http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif)

FatBoyHK
12-18-2004, 09:15 PM
also. I wanna ask another fundamental question... in a scenario like this, does a D9 really have the ability to catch a mustang? So mustang has a higher max dive speed but D9 has a higher acceleration?

steiner562
12-18-2004, 09:29 PM
Best answer fatboy is to get a wingyhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif 2v1 sucks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif or like robin says let the mustang do the flyinghttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://anthonyjhicks.com/pictures/starwars/xwing1.jpg

FatBoyHK
12-19-2004, 01:05 AM
lol. but I am a realistic person http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

and don't hijack my thread! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

karost
12-19-2004, 03:07 AM
well good post , good post FatBoyHK

when meet 2vs1 runaway is good choice for p-51 , just need more time not breaking your wing LOL

but if you have a big energy, 2vs1 not a problem just need only some cunning tactic

too bad for me not play WC for a long time coz , when icon is on I will become noob for sure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

first year you will happy for longwolf hutting but in a next year you will love wingman tactic

S!

FatBoyHK
12-19-2004, 03:25 AM
ar, energy is good, but how about too much energy? Sometimes I found that I am over 400 MPH before I come in range. even I can have a shot I am shaking like he11 and can't aim precisely. I can zoom up and try again, but at this time my enemy may be aware of my presence. Any hint about how to line up a good firing position from above?

and karost you are right, I still prefer to be a lonewolf, but I do use TS and enjoyed teamplay... I am in a different timezone with you europe and US guys, so that is a problem for me

karost
12-19-2004, 05:24 AM
LW plane with mk108 can success to manage hi-speed attack one pass one kill like Ta 152, 109G, K and 190 by hit and run, so lonewolf is fun

1)
before drive I set manual pitch to 0 or 10 % for air break and turn back to auto pitch so when I drive and gona reach to over speed over 800 I turn manual ptich and open rad for manage air break so I not "shaking like he11" just little bit shaking like stay on muisc hall http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

2)
trim setup I have 2 stage of trim setup in my joy strick program one for climb ( 14 click tirm up ) and other one for trim drive ( 14 click trim down ) so when I pull up from hi-speed drive I use trim up not joy stick coz I will lose wing or black out fast


I'm not expert in p-51, but by nature of p-51 climb batter then 190 , ta 152 and speed is hot , also .50 is hot too

ok see this, first stage if I see one moving white dot below me 3k so I manage drive to shoot him but when I get close he saw me comming he turn back to me and my seed too fast ( about 800 km/h ) I can not pull stapshot shoot him so we pass I still fly direct line ("NOT" turn) to make more separation but let him make a scond turn so his energy is leak from his turn , then I look back and see other dot cominig together , I climb with 15-20 degree up my speed drop 600,500,400 the I pull up 80 degree and manage vertical turn 180 degree back to them now let's he how he smart
1) did he/them pull his nose up to me or not ? if he did that then I smile coz seem he not care for his energy
2) but if "they" maintain speed and stay below then he/they is good coz they setup a trap for me and this situation not make me danger if I not drive down to eat that trap

ok let say they did a choice 1) pull up to me then I drop my head down I get more speed and act like I gonna head on with them but before get close suddenly I pull up gain to make more vertical separation and make vertical turn again at my eadge of stall but this time I need flap to keep me not lose altitude too fast from revers back , then you will see my positon stay on to top of his head , if I lucky and found the closer one stay on a nice position then close flap and manage deflection shoot at top side at cockpit so you can kill or damage him , if I miss then pull up look back to other one where he is ( do not follow the trap coz they will set wingman trap to you ) , if you check his movment and your current speed by keep stay on the top of them with drive -> pullup -> make vertical turn ( it is not BnZ let stay "Climb and Kill" is look closer , the trick is they thing they out of number so they play offensive role and leak a lot of energy ) , but soon they all will reach at the same altitude that I say ( my enegry was used and I have no more) , so no more game for cat and dogs this is a time for dirve away make vertical 90 degree drive down check map where to RTB and run like he11 LOL

as WC host turn on icon then RTB can not success if you not found your friends then depend on you luck http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S!

OldMan____
12-19-2004, 07:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
ar, energy is good, but how about too much energy? Sometimes I found that I am over 400 MPH before I come in range. even I can have a shot I am shaking like he11 and can't aim precisely. I can zoom up and try again, but at this time my enemy may be aware of my presence. Any hint about how to line up a good firing position from above?

and karost you are right, I still prefer to be a lonewolf, but I do use TS and enjoyed teamplay... I am in a different timezone with you europe and US guys, so that is a problem for me <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

just dive later on him... or choose another target. Dives that make you reach that speed usually will deplete a lot of your energy buffer. So, choosing another target or waiting a little bit would be better.

FatBoyHK
12-19-2004, 07:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> LW plane with mk108 can success to manage hi-speed attack one pass one kill like Ta 152, 109G, K and 190 by hit and run, so longwolf is fun
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

cannon are good but I think 0.50 suit me better, a large share of my kill are from deflection snapshot that shot them up from head to tail... This work best on 109, they can outturn me in a long run, by Mustang's instantous turn rate is uber... In a turnfight with 109, I turn slowly at the begining, just enough to keep him in my sight. Once I am in range I pull as hard as I can for a short period of time, to gain some lead on him, then I unleash my guns, until I see him again (when I overshoot) .... that require high muzzle V and high ROF, so 0.50s are perfect for this purpose. It may not be an instant kill, but I understand that it is the life of an US flyer. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> trim setup I have 2 stage of trim setup in my joy strick program one for climb ( 14 click tirm up ) and other one for trim drive ( 14 click trim down ) so when I pull up from hi-speed drive I use trim up not joy stick coz I will lose wing or black out fast
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I said I don't use trim because I don't think it is handy... but your suggestion seem to be very useful, not don't need too much micro-management. Will give it a try!!

And your move suggestion enlighted me too. Seem I come to some similar situations very often and I don't have a good way to do my second bounce. I think I will have chances to combat-test your idea very soon.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>as WC host turn on icon then RTB can not success if you not found your friends then depend on you luck <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Icon on WC has a really short range, so it doesn't matter much... I don't know what is the setting before (which seem you like it more than the current setting), as I just started playing online 2 weeks ago.

FatBoyHK
12-20-2004, 08:10 AM
Ha, I keep pumping out questions http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

My next question is, can I escape by climbing in a Mustang? IL2Compare suggessted I can, but seem I can't, I can do so by diving only. Any advice?

LStarosta
12-20-2004, 09:06 AM
After you climb to 6,000 meters and your Stage 2 kicks in, yeah, it's a viable option, but not in the midst of combat. It's something you do when you notice bandits that you do not want to engage (i.e. You and your wingman vs a schwarm and a half of enemies). The Mustang will outclimb most planes especially above 6000 meters, but I'd watch out for 109's particularly the G10 as it has a fantastic climb rate as well. Climbing is a thing you do to evade an enemy several kilometers from you, not 300 meters from your rear.

To go back to your earlier question, when you are too high to perform a boom and zoom attack, this is one example where you do not want to engage. What you want to do here is to lure the enemy into coming up to meet you instead of you diving to him. There are two distinct characteristics to this situation:

1) If you dive down from an altitude 3000-4000 meters above your enemy, you are allowing your enemy to dictate the fight. He has more options at this point than you do. He can do one of two things should he notice you:

a) Climb. He will do this if he notices you a little late. Very good technique as his vertical loop radius will be much tighter than yours, given his speed is much slower than yours. He will probably perform a chandelle to force you to bleed energy by turning in the horizontal plane.

b) Dive. A little riskier for him, but if he notices you while you are still at altitude, he may try to nicely ask you to disengage by enlarging the altitude gap, and thus further reducing your offensive, and soon, defensive capabilities. If you do decide to pursue, he will probably end his dive in either a chandelle or a zoom climb into an immelmann.

Once you have dived this far you will have not only alerted the enemy but you would have bled as much as 50-70% of your energy depending on maneuvers performed. Bad Idea.


2) However, if you lure your (dumb) enemy into climbing towards you, you only give yourself more possibilities. Make yourself a juicy target by enticing him with your vapor trails. Begin a slow spiral climb to challenge your opponents stamina, but don't make it too obvious. And now the fun kicks in:

a) After climbing this much, your opponent's engine will be not only exhausted, but he will be at a very low energy state relative to you. This is why you do a slow spiral climb. You STILL want some degree of vertical separation, but you want to keep it to a point where you can control your energy.

b) This leaves you with all the options of dictating the fight. Given the fact that since you were too high to dive on someone, you will be around 6000 or more meters, the Mustang's lucky altitude barrier. If you do not wish to engage, simply keep climbing past 6000 meters where your supercharger and high rate of climb really kick in. Then level off and speed away.

It cannot be stated enough that for proper combat flying you NEED a wingman. The P51 is a great plane to practice drag and bag techniques, and contrary to popular belief, drag and bag is just as effective up high as it is down low!

FatBoyHK
12-20-2004, 09:50 AM
LStarosta thx for you lecture once again, S!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

and I agree with you that Mustang is indeed an excellent drag&bag fighter, sometimes I find myself more than willing to be the bait, it is fun watching someone take the bait and blow up right behind you... and then in most cases a nice chat will follow http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FatBoyHK
12-21-2004, 02:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Climbing is a thing you do to evade an enemy several kilometers from you, not 300 meters from your rear. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So that, when the plane behind me come close enough to let me ID it as a bandit (which is the case in most circumstance), it is already too late to disengage by climbing? Even I am over 20000ft?

FatBoyHK
12-24-2004, 02:02 PM
Hi all experts, I come back again with questions!!!

This time the question is, how to get rid of a 190 behind me, just in range, or slightly out of range? I tried climb, spiral climb, dive, yes I can keep it out of range, but if he insist we will fly for all day, and it become a match between fuel tanks. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

If I am flying up high I have a good confidence that he won't catch me. But at 10000ft or under, I have no confidence at all. Clouds will then become my best friend, but sometimes it won't work that well.

If there is just he and I, I would try to turn back and fight. But if I can't turn quickly enough to force a head2head merge (with some seperation of course), I am doomed, especially if I have no more alt to keep my speed high.

I know Mustang certainly have the tricks to win a matchup like this, or as least it can shake him off a litle bit more far away, which would encourge him to disengage. So I know I must have done something wrong. Should I try vertical turn? At least I can converse my E.

But, in the other side of the story, if I am the attacker on a Mustang following a 190 in the same scenario, he will be in a ever bigger trouble, because usually I can catch him in a short time. However, he can risk everything and force an overshoot by slowing down, which work quite well because of the thick skin it has....of course I shouldn't even give this tactics a try on a mustang http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LStarosta
12-24-2004, 07:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Climbing is a thing you do to evade an enemy several kilometers from you, not 300 meters from your rear. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So that, when the plane behind me come close enough to let me ID it as a bandit (which is the case in most circumstance), it is already too late to disengage by climbing? Even I am over 20000ft? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what Situational awareness and teamwork is for. Ask your teammates if anyone is closing on a plane at a certain altitude at a certain grid coordinate (your location). You ALWAYS assume a dot is a bandit. Word of thumb to save your hide: When in doubt, chicken out. Stick to it and you'll be okay, as long as you aren't TOO doubtful http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.