PDA

View Full Version : Life after 4.09 patch?



rnzoli
10-28-2007, 06:43 AM
Let's assume Oleg sticks to what he just recently answered in the 1C interview, and basically 4.09 will bring only 2 extra maps and another attempt to keep out the hackers. No new aircraft, no FM changes, no new features.

rnzoli
10-28-2007, 06:43 AM
Let's assume Oleg sticks to what he just recently answered in the 1C interview, and basically 4.09 will bring only 2 extra maps and another attempt to keep out the hackers. No new aircraft, no FM changes, no new features.

Feathered_IV
10-28-2007, 06:52 AM
A penguin takes his car to a mechanic.

The mechanic pops the hood and after a minute says, "This may take a while. go have a beer or something and come back in an hour."

The penguin goes away but thinks to himself, "I'm a penguin - I don't drink beer. Never mind. I'll go get an icecream instead."

So the penguin buys himself an icecream. But not having proper hands he can't hold it very well and drops most of the icecream down his front. He tries to wipe it off but this only makes things worse.

After an hour he goes back to the mechanic who is still messing around under the bonnet. He looks up as the penguin approaches and shakes his head. "Looks like you've blown a seal." He says.

"No," says the penguin. "I've just had an icecream."

Stay cool rnzoli http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Low_Flyer_MkIX
10-28-2007, 06:55 AM
You know what will happen. Even with 4.09 being the last patch. Oleg & Co could give us 100 new 'planes and there'd still be whining for a 101st.

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2007, 06:59 AM
The modding community will naturally respect Oleg and all his disciples. being the free-thinking and individually minded people they are, they will, as a cohesive entity, decide that they have gone too far

"What were we THINKING?!" they will lament. "This sacred community is built on mutual agreement of FM baselines and recognised aircraft performance, not on selfish self-aggrandizement and personal wants! To think that any of us have caused problems with the sim outside of any of our specific needs...how may we atone for these sins?!?!"

Of course

rnzoli
10-28-2007, 07:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
Stay cool rnzoli http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>No worries, but what happened with your first response? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rnzoli
10-28-2007, 07:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkIX:
You know what will happen. Even with 4.09 being the last patch. Oleg & Co could give us 100 new 'planes and there'd still be whining for a 101st. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>There is no point to whine to Oleg anymore. Just send a cheque to the sound modders and ask them to do their fav plane in 4.08. In this sense, the less extra content comes with 4.09, the better for those who plan to play online up at least up to March 2008 (and beyond). Do I see this correctly?

SeaFireLIV
10-28-2007, 07:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
Let's assume Oleg sticks to what he just recently answered in the 1C interview, and basically 4.09 will bring only 2 extra maps and another attempt to keep out the hackers. No new aircraft, no FM changes, no new features. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What`s the point of these questions?

They are bitter, angry questions and they solve nothing at all. Wiil they respect 4.09? Will they be ignorant?

What`s the point?

You`re getting obsessed with an issue that will not be solved this way. You have got to start seeing that there`s more to life than this. take a walk in the park or something.

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2007, 07:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkIX:
You know what will happen. Even with 4.09 being the last patch. Oleg & Co could give us 100 new 'planes and there'd still be whining for a 101st. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>There is no point to whine to Oleg anymore. Just send a cheque to the sound modders and ask them to do their fav plane in 4.08. In this sense, the less extra content comes with 4.09, the better for those who plan to play online up at least up to March 2008 (and beyond). Do I see this correctly? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You assume that "the sound modders" are not only a nifty group of guys, but that they'd be interested in doing anything for anybody in anything like the long haul...or even in 6 months or 6 weeks. You also assume that their work is "quality"

You're putting a lot of faith in a group of strangers

Rayen_25
10-28-2007, 07:17 AM
It will be like it want QTim. May be want breake, may be not.
May be he don't may break code.

rnzoli
10-28-2007, 07:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rayen_25:
It will be like it want QTim. May be want breake, may be not.
May be he don't may break code. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>He will do what the users want from him http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2007, 07:19 AM
that's a very re-assuring string of "maybes" to some people, I'm sure, but to me it sounds like a little kid's promise to be good

Feathered_IV
10-28-2007, 07:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
Stay cool rnzoli http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>No worries, but what happened with your first response? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was a bookmark until I could put in the proper post. I just wanted to be first http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

rnzoli
10-28-2007, 07:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You also assume that their work is "quality"

You're putting a lot of faith in a group of strangers </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Negative, I simply assume that they are practical minded. Better to focus on the already broken 4.08 version and expand new content from there, than wasting a lot more time on breaking 4.09 just for getting 2 new maps from Oleg as well.

Rayen_25
10-28-2007, 07:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rayen_25:
It will be like it want QTim. May be want breake, may be not.
May be he don't may break code. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>He will do what the users want from him http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You are realy believe in your words?

rnzoli
10-28-2007, 07:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
What`s the point of these questions?
They are bitter, angry questions and they solve nothing at all. Wiil they respect 4.09? Will they be ignorant?

What`s the point? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The point is that this is a decision all mod-supported can make already NOW. You are pretty much in charge of what will happen after 4.09.

The very interesting thing is that after 4.09, it's not possible to say current excuses like "there's no other way to have my sounds", " no other way to reduce head-up display letter size", "no other way to fly my fav AI plane" etc.

4.09 will show the bare-bone real intentions of the modders and all supporters behind them. I wonder what's the outlook, that's it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You`re getting obsessed with an issue that will not be solved this way. You have got to start seeing that there`s more to life than this. take a walk in the park or something. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Leave my priorities to me, please, will you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I had enough walking in the part yesterday http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif came back tired like a dog, I guess I am getting too old http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rnzoli
10-28-2007, 07:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rayen_25:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rayen_25:
It will be like it want QTim. May be want breake, may be not.
May be he don't may break code. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>He will do what the users want from him http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You are realy believe in your words? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, because I seem to remember that QTIM released his modding tools due to the stiff resistance from Oleg fixing a number of very long standing problems with IL-2. If 4.08 and 4.09 are nearly identical, what would be the motivation to break 4.09 except for cheating online and taking credit for burying the online players alive?

rnzoli
10-28-2007, 07:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
That was a bookmark until I could put in the proper post. I just wanted to be first http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Hmmm... what's the rush? Will 4.09 be release soon? I feel more like the standard 2 weeks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Plenty of time to discuss http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2007, 07:43 AM
...but this person is the only one who's able to do it, right? So now that there's been a hack, all the other people, who want to do 'bad' things, won;t even try, because this shining example of altruism did it first. And his intentions are always good and always will be http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

fly_zo
10-28-2007, 07:53 AM
ok here is my attempt to make peace with angry online community :

sound mod must use russian FB.exe or it won't work so is it possible to one make app for server to check FB.exe version on client side?

~S~

Z

rnzoli
10-28-2007, 07:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And his intentions are always good and always will be </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Not necessarily, but hacking it for modding for the first time was a greater achievement, in comparison with doing it for the second time. Same load of work, and only 2 extra maps, nothing more. So I would expect that he takes more walks in the park after the release of 4.09, instead of firing up his CPU-stepper again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Of course, he may be interested in breaking the code again, just for professional achievement, but he can do this without actuallly releasing new modding tools. Just a screenshot to the community "I did it again" and that's it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Actually, it would be interesting to know what his plan is, but I believe he took a lot of pride from the praise from the mod-lovers, therefore community sentiment towards 4.09 hacking (pro or contra) will have a big inlfuence on how he will proceed. We can't blame him for everything, can we? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rayen_25
10-28-2007, 08:25 AM
If MG make new protection like checkruntime=3, it's will be good solve for mod-lovers and mod-haters.

ojcar1971
10-28-2007, 09:55 AM
I think 4.09 will have new maps, fix some minor bugs, and that's all. No new encription. The code is broken and Oleg doesn't have any time to fix it. That's all, mates.

Enthor1
10-28-2007, 10:12 AM
Life after 4.09 patch....will continue and outside our little IL2 world people with real problems will keep on truckin'.

Think about this: We here are so fortunate in life that the modding of a 6 year old computer program has become the main focus of our attention.

Anyone here or in the other "The sky has fallen!" threads around the net need to thank whatever stars they believe in that things are so good that the IL2 sound mod and its ramifications are their main worry.


Sound mod....yes I have it, on a seperate install from a clean online one and I am trying to find the flyable "non flyables" that are popping up here and there.

Oh horrors, the cockpit will not be perfect, like 99% of us really know the difference.

I am a 90% onliner and have been since IL2 got here but I do not have a stroke at the possibility that someone may find a cheat to shoot my pretend airplane down.

Get over it guys.

Polyperhon
10-28-2007, 10:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If 4.08 and 4.09 are nearly identical, what would be the motivation to break 4.09 except for cheating online and taking credit for burying the online players alive? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What would be the motivation to download 4.09 anyway? Most people still live with the 4.04m if you haven't noticed already.I still have an untouched copy of my 4.04m because still 90% of the online servers support it.So the question for Oleg is or to offer something more and convince more people to move on to 1946 or forget 1946 forever.In the second case the 4.09 will be a very minor fix, so there is no question if they would waste time or not to a new encription, the answer is that case is NO.
But as I wrote here,
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/6071016106
since we continue to hear about 4.09 and it's not coming, there is slight hope for new material and in that case...who knows?

bigbossmalone
10-28-2007, 10:42 AM
As long as the modders are still going to bring new stuff to the table, good, because Oleg and Co aren't.
So, there will probably be mods, some good, some bad - at least we will still have a choice of using the new mods or not.
Otherwise, IL2 will stay as it is without any new things at all. Only modding from here on out, will allow us to have new stuff. I, for one, want new stuff. So, I will use mods, as long as they are of a respectable quality, and IL2's lifespan will thus be increased for me.
We should all at least be able to agree that IL2 has a pretty big following, be it on or offline. Out of the mods that are sure to appear, some are probably going to be good, and some bad. Going back to my original point, at least we will have the CHOICE whether to use said mods or not.
I like the option of being able to make that choice. I like choice.
Simple, then: if you like it, use it.
if you don't like it, don't use it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Better than having nothing to choose from, IMO.
IL2 is dead? Long live IL2!

knightflyte
10-28-2007, 10:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
Stay cool rnzoli http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>No worries, but what happened with your first response? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was a bookmark until I could put in the proper post. I just wanted to be first http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif
[/QUOTE


Well I'm glad you bookmarked, Feathered IV. A good laugh was needed.

rnzoli
10-28-2007, 12:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ojcar1971:
I think 4.09 will have new maps, fix some minor bugs, and that's all. No new encription. The code is broken and Oleg doesn't have any time to fix it. That's all, mates. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not really, because Oleg could at least change the encryption codes very quickly so the current modding tools can't work on 4.09 as of today. Unfortunately, that would be easy to break within a few weeks, using the same methods applied for the past few version. Of course. Of course, only if there is a real need to break 4.09 too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If I understood his latest comments, they would like to look into a completely different and stronger encryption method, but that's what they don't have enough time for probably.

rnzoli
10-28-2007, 12:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Enthor1:
Anyone here or in the other "The sky has fallen!" threads around the net need to thank whatever stars they believe in that things are so good that the IL2 sound mod and its ramifications are their main worry. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have a number of worries, IL-2 is just one of them, and I am thankful as you say. On the other hand, why do you address your comment to "sky is falling" crowd only? How come you don't address the same argument to the hackers and modders? I don't see the logic: if it was SO IMPORTANT for the hackers to crack, the modders to change, and users to apply the mods, why are you preaching others to give the issue no special importance at all?


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Get over it guys. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I got over he hacking of 4.08. But 4.09 is not even released yet, not hacked yet, and I don't see any need to hack it either. So I think it may be worth to try protecting it.

Polyperhon
10-28-2007, 01:09 PM
I wonder why you persist with such fanatism to a non-existext issue.Every great programm that entertained thousends of users was/is editable and could have a lot of independent add-ons. From the various FS to the ...ROME:TOTAL WAR, editing is a neccessary path to a cult following.Why not having more maps, more nationalities involved (Belgium, China, Greece, Norway etc.) with their voice modes, new soundtracks etc. if some people are ready to make them and offer them for free? I wonder with your obsession.

MEGILE
10-28-2007, 01:15 PM
4.09 will be hacked in less than 2 weeks.

rnzoli
10-28-2007, 01:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Polyperhon:
Why not having more maps, more nationalities involved (Belgium, China, Greece, Norway etc.) with their voice modes, new soundtracks etc. if some people are ready to make them and offer them for free? I wonder with your obsession. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe you misunderstand me. Let's say there are indeed a lot of goodies coming from the modders, so then why isn't it enough to mod 4.08 and leave 4.09 unbroken? It will be soon more worthwile for many people than a plain 4.09. But an unhacked 4.09 could at least remain a safe haven for online play with assurance for an even level playing field.

Freelancer-1
10-28-2007, 01:40 PM
I guess it has to be a wait and see, but I doubt there are going to be any code changes in 4.09.

So anyone saying, "leave 4.09 alone" is engaged in wishful thinking.

It's already hacked.

What needs to be discussed are how it's going to be dealt with. And since the initial flame war and personal attacks, things do seem to be moving that way.

Dialog without anger and prejudice is a good thing.

Let's practice it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Bearcat99
10-28-2007, 02:00 PM
I dont know what the modders will do.. I guess they will keep doing what they are doing. I'll continue to fly in 4.09 till BoB comes out.. them I'll fly both for a while as the SoW theaters expand I will fly FB less and less....

LEBillfish
10-28-2007, 02:26 PM
The modders "will" try and hack 4.09 regardless of the content. The excuse will be, "it's my sim, if they didn't want me to hack it they shouldn't of made it available for download".

That said, the big question is whether they will be responsible, and present their hacked content in a fashion that makes it difficult for others to alter default skins, fm's, dm's, weapons and the like...OR...continue with their irresponsible to date method?

My bet is on the latter, as IMLTHO, those hacking this are much like children who take great joy in feeling the insignificant power of destruction, failing to really grasp the true power of creation. A big slap at Maddox Games really the only reason.

Sad, as I see so many here who contribute vast amounts of time, effort and creativity to enhance the sim. Making skins, missions, aircraft & event technical data, 3rd party "Maddox Games" utilized work, on and on...Yet NONE of it causing harm to the sim or community. Look at all on Mission4Today for an example.

So in the end, no matter how much potential good and contribution they could be making for the betterment of the sim........In the end the hackers work just destruction of the very thing they worked on.

Sad to pathetic really...Lets see what happens, i've got $5.00 on my prediction.

Daiichidoku
10-28-2007, 02:34 PM
only 5?

oh yea of little faith http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



ive heard of a mythical place called "real life"
i know it sounds silly.....but maybe there is such a place....the ancient texts state that in this magical place, our universal catastrophies and the crushing pressure of an imploding atmosphere we face here everyday are considered trivial at best, negligible in fact
yea, its stupid...but i can have dreams, just like anyone else, cant i?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

LEBillfish
10-28-2007, 02:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
only 5?...but i can have dreams, just like anyone else, cant i?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

rediculous remarks meant to simply be cute or derail discussions are the only literary or verbal weapon left for those unable to debate reasonably the subject at hand.......We see this a lot in the recent threads of this topic.

Daiichidoku
10-28-2007, 03:06 PM
odd

im not using any weapons...i didnt even know i was in a fight

derail?

thread topic is:
my inference reffered to:

anyhow, mod threads are so 2 weeks ago....its here, deal with it, fighting will not change things one way or another Billfish

choose to use it or not

dont push its use on others, and dont push its non use on others

rnzoli
10-28-2007, 03:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Freelancer-1:
I guess it has to be a wait and see, but I doubt there are going to be any code changes in 4.09.

So anyone saying, "leave 4.09 alone" is engaged in wishful thinking.

It's already hacked. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's not even released, how can you be sure?

For clarity, let's assume when voting that the encryption key will be changed, meaning that the current mods will not work after installing 4.09.

This will be easy to test immediately after 4.09. If your mods continue to work, or at least you can set them up in 5 minutes, you can say nothing changed. But you know, this could be wishful thinking from your side, too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

rnzoli
10-28-2007, 03:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
anyhow, mod threads are so 2 weeks ago....its here, deal with it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
yes, for 4.08, nothing can be done except for CRT=2, but 4.09 is still open issue, it could be totally mod compatible immediately, but it could also require another 1-2 months to crack once more

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">dont push its use on others, and dont push its non use on others </div></BLOCKQUOTE>in this thread the main question is whether the mods will be pushed on 4.09 as well, just to grab 2 extra maps, or not

SeaFireLIV
10-28-2007, 03:44 PM
Funny, I used to think I was a diehard fan of IL2, but I guess i`m not as diehard as some of you... or maybe not as naive as some of you.

Threads like these do very little save to show that grown people can wring their hands constantly over something that could not be held back for all eternity.

I mean, if it was about trying to end all poverty around the globe or 3rd world debt, starvation and wickedness, i`d be all for banging on about ending it, even if it was impossible...

But over a flight sim that lasted 7 years or more? It got hacked, without our say so. just like cashpoint cards got hacked eventually, just like everything gets `hacked`. the authorities that be will keep trying to prevent the hackers and the hackers will keep trying it on.

It`s life.

Some of you guys need to get your priorities right.


I reckon this is really a theraphy thread for those that can`t get it. It`ll help ween some of you off the shock. I suppose this is the `denial` stage.

I`ll leave you happily to it.

rnzoli
10-28-2007, 04:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
just like everything gets `hacked`. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have no problem if you take your blanket approval of all hacking with you. I also don't belive that any of the hackers would be fighting to end powerty or 3rd world debt - they would just say "It's life". Sounds familiar? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

For the sake of factual information, here are a few protocols and related software, where the developers stayed ahead of hackers pretty well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSH
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public-key_cryptography
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerberos_%28protocol%29

Yes, hackers try a lot of things. Very often succesfully. But they don't win everywhere. If you believe that everything is hacked, you don't have a bank card or an account either.

Freelancer-1
10-28-2007, 04:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Freelancer-1:
I guess it has to be a wait and see, but I doubt there are going to be any code changes in 4.09.

So anyone saying, "leave 4.09 alone" is engaged in wishful thinking.

It's already hacked. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's not even released, how can you be sure?

For clarity, let's assume when voting that the encryption key will be changed, meaning that the current mods will not work after installing 4.09.

This will be easy to test immediately after 4.09. If your mods continue to work, or at least you can set them up in 5 minutes, you can say nothing changed. But you know, this could be wishful thinking from your side, too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why did you ignore the important part of the quote?

"What needs to be discussed are how it's going to be dealt with. And since the initial flame war and personal attacks, things do seem to be moving that way.

Dialog without anger and prejudice is a good thing.

Let's practice it"

Perhaps you could comment on the concept of working towards a solution, as opposed to attacking those you feel threatened by.

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2007, 04:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
Actually, it would be interesting to know what his plan is, but I believe he took a lot of pride from the praise from the mod-lovers, therefore community sentiment towards 4.09 hacking (pro or contra) will have a big inlfuence on how he will proceed. We can't blame him for everything, can we? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. We can't blame him for everything

We also can't praise him for everything. I also have brought up the point that "he" is not the only one who will hack

"They" or even "he" will not and cannot do anything but what they think they should do

And were does that leave us, when "they" use any of the thousand common misconceptions out there online to base a mod on? Screwed. Sound is one thing, and we all know it doesn't stop there, or if we donnt know it...then God help the hindmost because Life is bound to be a shocker. This is Human Nature we're discussing, not altruism as an abstract.

The thing I worry about most is offline play.

You can take ALL of the careful planning and mission building for EVERY one of the many fine, detailed, and exhaustively researched campaigns that are out there, and throw them in the garbage

Think for a minute what the ability to mod plane speed or even climb rate does to all of that- it breaks every mission in that campaign, because the mission builder planned on known, set performance- let alone weapon load-out and damage resistance. It ruins the community's hard-won access to a multitude of fine quality output, because it makes every mission builder's job impossible. I can't finely plan a window of opportunity for the player to be in the right place at the right time- because the player's flight, the enemy's flights, and even the ground assets will not be traveling at speeds I took into account- because I don't know what mods the player is using. And if the enemy has to accomplish a goal? Well you can forget about that too because I can't predict how easy- or hard- it will be for the enemy to get there in time to even try

I, and I am sure others- will simply stop even trying to make campaigns

And coops? Much the same story

Daiichidoku
10-28-2007, 04:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
yes, for 4.08, nothing can be done except for CRT=2, but 4.09 is still open issue, it could be totally mod compatible immediately, but it could also require another 1-2 months to crack once more </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes i agree...

AFAIK CRT=2 is proof vs., but i have seen a post here in UBI claiming otherwise

many said 409 would be hacked soon after its delayed due to hack release, only to see Oleg say nada but 2 maps will be the case

from that, id guess 409 would indeed be hack compatible....a terrible shame, as having a 'clean' and 'dirty' option would go towards keeping a semblence of status quo (whatever that is)

rnzoli
10-28-2007, 04:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Freelancer-1:
Why did you ignore the important part of the quote?

"What needs to be discussed are how it's going to be dealt with. And since the initial flame war and personal attacks, things do seem to be moving that way.

Dialog without anger and prejudice is a good thing.

Let's practice it"

Perhaps you could comment on the concept of working towards a solution, as opposed to attacking those you feel threatened by. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because I see it even more important that 4.09 isn't hacked yet.

Anyhow, here is my comment on working a solution: check this post from me earlier: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/368...261087995#5261087995 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/3681066995?r=5261087995#5261087995)
Does that not qualify for some reason?

Also I brought this thread up because another (by now, largely theoretical) solution is to pull public support from hacking 4.09 as well, and keep modding 4.08 happily instead. Would this proposal not qualify either? If not, why not?

Freelancer-1
10-28-2007, 04:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BBB462cid:


I, and I am sure others- will simply stop even trying to make campaigns

And coops? Much the same story </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope you are just blowing smoke here, Cid.

I suspect you don't really want to punish the good people who want to play one of your campaigns because you're offended one or two may change something.

However, and don't take this the wrong way, you may bow out for the above reasons but others will not.

There will always be people who do it (campaigns and coops) for the love of it and not the fear that their work may be toyed with.

rnzoli
10-28-2007, 04:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
only to see Oleg say nada but 2 maps will be the case

from that, id guess 409 would indeed be hack compatible </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This part of Oleg's post on the banana forums gives me some kind of hope http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I can't promise now... <span class="ev_code_YELLOW"> but my guys in research what is possible by minimal human/month busy schedule... </span> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
So the possibilities to tighten online security is (was) still being looked at. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

ElAurens
10-28-2007, 04:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
4.09 will be hacked in less than 2 weeks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately I must agree.

A sad state of affairs.

Daiichidoku
10-28-2007, 05:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I can't promise now... <span class="ev_code_YELLOW"> but my guys in research what is possible by minimal human/month busy schedule... </span> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
So the possibilities to tighten online security is (was) still being looked at. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

nice...although perhaps too hopeful for me that they change thier collective mind and maybe change sounds to better (and public domain) ones...or who knows?...while i feel 1c/ubi have made many mistakes, they have also given us some pleasant surprises

if encryption is a part of 409 in any event, i hope it lasts

LEXX_Luthor
10-28-2007, 08:30 PM
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/thumbs.gif


A) They will be considerate and respectful. 4.09 stays unhacked by modders.
B) They will be greedy and ignorant. They will drive the breaking of 4.09 immediately after the release.

This is fantastic stuff "Pa" rnzoli, if the original (if only one) Macker can't or won't mack 4.09, and if Oleg can or will do it secure 4.09, or Outlaw who has offered to try independently.


If 4.09 with little or no real gaming content gets macked as well, I think I can see rnzoli has a good point -- the intent may have been to somehow invade Online play all along, perhaps as LEBfish describes. Given how long the Mack has been out there, and anonymous public servers have been functioning fine all this time, do you think its possible the original (if only one) Macker does not wish to see Mack based online cheating? That's been what I've been thinking at least. We'll see.


Offline players -- 4.08 or 4.09 or both
Online players in trusted servers/LAN -- 4.08 or 4.09
Anonymous public servers -- 4.08 or 4.09

Many Offline players out of either respect for Oleg, or want of any new 4.09 content, will use 4.09.

Some Online players in trusted private servers or LAN may use macked 4.08. These people know there will be no Mack based cheating. Cheating of any kind simply Does Not Exist by axiom.

Serious Online players using anonymous public servers will play servers running 4.09. Some anonymous public servers may try macked 4.08 -- maybe just for plain fun, and maybe try to watch out for "cheaters" through other methods, or maybe just let things fly.

LEXX_Luthor
10-28-2007, 08:34 PM
BBC462:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The thing I worry about most is offline play.

You can take ALL of the careful planning and mission building for EVERY one of the many fine, detailed, and exhaustively researched campaigns that are out there, and throw them in the garbage

Think for a minute what the ability to mod plane speed or even climb rate does to all of that- it breaks every mission in that campaign, because the mission builder planned on known, set performance- let alone weapon load-out and damage resistance. It ruins the community's hard-won access to a multitude of fine quality output, because it makes every mission builder's job impossible. I can't finely plan a window of opportunity for the player to be in the right place at the right time- because the player's flight, the enemy's flights, and even the ground assets will not be traveling at speeds I took into account- because I don't know what mods the player is using. And if the enemy has to accomplish a goal? Well you can forget about that too because I can't predict how easy- or hard- it will be for the enemy to get there in time to even try

I, and I am sure others- will simply stop even trying to make campaigns

And coops? Much the same story </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Chuck, after every Patch, and Oleg has always tweaked FMs in most every Patch, everybody's missions and coops broke, stopped working, and everybody stopped making them? Is this Correct Thinking? Maybe your mission building is different from mine.

Tab_Flettner
10-28-2007, 09:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I am a 90% onliner and have been since IL2 got here but I do not have a stroke at the possibility that someone may find a cheat to shoot my pretend airplane down.

Get over it guys. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are letting your maturity ruin a great party. Think about it.

M4Sherman4
10-28-2007, 10:41 PM
If they leave out stuff like non-flyable planes Someone will hack to get there

Von_Rat
10-28-2007, 11:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
4.09 will be hacked in less than 2 weeks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately I must agree.

A sad state of affairs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

look at the bright side,,, it might be the oleg verison of 2 weeks.

VMF-214_HaVoK
10-29-2007, 12:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Oleg & Co could give us 100 new 'planes and there'd still be whining for a 101st. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And sadly, thats the cold hard truth folks. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

S!

rnzoli
10-29-2007, 12:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M4Sherman4:
If they leave out stuff like non-flyable planes Someone will hack to get there </div></BLOCKQUOTE>True, as a perfect example of greed and ignorace. I hope you voted on your way out.

Daiichidoku
10-29-2007, 01:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Some anonymous public servers may try macked 4.08 -- maybe just for plain fun, and maybe try to watch out for "cheaters" through other methods, or maybe just let things fly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ive wondered about this; would 'cheaters' even bother with a macked 408 server? id imagine they want to get into the 'forbidden' 409/CRT=2 places, where the extra surprise and irritation at thier presence makes thier sad lives liveable for them?



if indeed 1C will do nada vs. the mack....i wonder if the one who made extractor could or would make his own encryption....and bring back a measure of security to FB for those who run it

i know, i know, fat chance.....but it would be nice

msalama
10-29-2007, 01:39 AM
/rant on

Guys, we're going around in circles w/ this.

The unfortunate fact is that the bugger is hacked, and will not turn back to unhacked unless the encryption is substantially bettered. Also I unfortunately believe that v4.09 will be hacked, too, even if there's nothing to be gained from it, because many people when you get down to it are basically little s**ts and do that c**p just for the hell of it.

So this is where we stand ATM, which then leaves us basically w/ 2 options, namely:

1) Use the mods, or
2) not use them.

YMMV, but option 2 is what I've personally chosen so far (I'm mostly an onliner, mind you). I did try the sound hack out, but the bugger turned my menu texts to Russian, and the sounds weren't IMO _that_ good, either - even if they were original(ish) - so I canned it. I also checked out some other mods out of interest, but those turned out to be total kludges like AI planes w/ incomplete FMs and wrong cockpits, so I naturally never even tried them. And to cap this all up rumours about mods w/ embedded malware now abound, so I think my choice is pretty clear for the time being http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But what if someone comes up w/ a professional-level but unsanctioned AC model at some point, f.ex.? I have to admit that I'd probably try it out myself, if only to see what all the fuss is about - which, again, doesn't alter my basic opinion of hacking the sim _still_ being both illegal and wrong! So as you can see, I'm having a bit of a mixed head about all this http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif

But in conclusion the best thing for MG to do _would_ still of course be to shore up the encryption substantially in v4.09! But as we know they probably won't, so what I'm predicting is continued paranoia and compartementalized thinking within this community http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif

Until a 3rd party comes up w/ an online punk-busting solution, that is... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

/rant off

msalama
10-29-2007, 01:47 AM
So what we need is contra-hackers, now isn't it? Heck, crack IL-2 yourself and shore up the encryption and then distribute your package as a mod... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

rnzoli
10-29-2007, 02:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tab_Flettner:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I am a 90% onliner and have been since IL2 got here but I do not have a stroke at the possibility that someone may find a cheat to shoot my pretend airplane down.

Get over it guys. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are letting your maturity ruin a great party. Think about it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am not sure if I understand your post in the way you intended but have you just labeled all anti-doping efforst in the various sport games "immature" also?

This is sim/game designed for competition at it's core, it you like to fly around in it like in MSFS, sure, not problem, but that's not what it was intended for.

The biggest problem with the prospects of cheating is NOT that I get shot down. I get shot down a lot anyway, so it makes no big different http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif There are 2 other, much bigger problems:

1) Highly visible cheaters disturb an otherwise fair play. Even if the cheater joins my side and shoots the opposition down, it's completely bad, because it's like pooping onto the middle of playground. No one will have the stomach to play on that field any more.

2) Subtle cheaters take away motivations to climb the learning curve. With an even playing field, there is a lot to learn from each lost engagement. With the prospect of cheaters, you might find nothing to learn except not to play again online.

Look beyond the "online play = egoism = immature" equatation and look at why anti-doping efforts try to save the Olympic Games for example. Not because they are immature.

jasonbirder
10-29-2007, 03:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This is sim/game designed for competition at it's core </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well thats news to me!
I thought it was designed as a simulation of World War 2 aerial combat...
I guess this cuts to the core of the Onliner vs Offliner debate!

rnzoli
10-29-2007, 03:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jasonbirder:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This is sim/game designed for competition at it's core </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well thats news to me!
I thought it was designed as a simulation of World War 2 aerial combat...
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I assume combat = competition. When you fly offline, you also compete with the pre-programmed skills of the AI. Why is that a news to you?

Schuck
11-21-2007, 09:27 AM
I think someone said earier something like why should he download 4.09. Has he seen the slovakian map? I have to say it's the most beautiful thing I've every seen. If you check out this Guther Rall print he looks like he could be in it.

http://www.brooksart.com/Packtrub.html

EiZ0N
11-21-2007, 10:02 AM
Guys, hackers exist in nearly every game.

It's a part of gaming.

Kick guys who look like they're hacking, otherwise, just play on.

If their hack is so subtle that you can't notice it, then that's just like them flying a slightly better place than you, which happens all the time anyway (unless you ***** the best places).

It makes no difference if your servers have good moderators. Also, if you only really play with regulars, then there is no problem at all.

rnzoli
11-21-2007, 10:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Schuck:
I think someone said earier something like why should he download 4.09. Has he seen the slovakian map? I have to say it's the most beautiful thing I've every seen. If you check out this Guther Rall print he looks like he could be in it.

http://www.brooksart.com/Packtrub.html </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, the new map looks beautiful (and very much similar to the terrain in the painting, but resurrecting this thread was maybe unnecessary http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As far as I see, right now we are busy defining "Life before/without the 4.09 patch" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rnzoli
11-21-2007, 10:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EiZ0N:
Guys, hackers exist in nearly every game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Except IL-2 - until recently.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It's a part of gaming. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I have no problem if it is part of your gaming.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Kick guys who look like they're hacking, otherwise, just play on. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Look like? You don't get it? I don't want to watch out for them AT ALL. I would like to concentrate on playing, because that's the fun part. I want the anti-cheat encryptions to take care of the rest.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
If their hack is so subtle that you can't notice it, then that's just like them flying a slightly better place than you, which happens all the time anyway (unless you ***** the best places). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah. So why compete anyway.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
It makes no difference if your servers have good moderators. Also, if you only really play with regulars, then there is no problem at all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Sure, and if you play by yourself, than it's heaven. That's what I hear from the modders at least.

th3wraith06
11-22-2007, 02:13 PM
my problem with this post is that you lump all the mods together as hacks, for that matter, i guess skins and nose arts that wern't default are hacks too, oh and lets not forget new missions. the fact is that yes there are hacks out there for this, but the sound mod itself is not a hack, the addon planes, yes i could see some arguments there, but as far as i am concerned, the main thing we need to look at is realism, and the fact is that even though this "hack" is not default, then again, a lot of your online skins arn't default either now are they, i dont want cheats in the game just like every other respectiable pilot, but if i were to change the sound files to be more realisitc, thats not cheating, that's an enhancement over the current sounds. before you go and claim that all mods are hacks, remember that if you say that you are also including skins, nose arts, and missions.

danger13
11-22-2007, 02:39 PM
S! guys
i am back after a long time away from these forums to say this.

1c have done an exellent job with il2, the modders have done an exellent job with the sound mod( not hack). dont see why they dont get together for the infamous 4.09, and make it the best patch ever. btw is it still the usual 2 weeks before launch lol

personally, and i DON'T speak for the rest of the world, i would think if they dont, then 4.09 would not be touched.
here's hoping.

S!

Bearcat99
11-22-2007, 08:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by danger13:
S! guys
i am back after a long time away from these forums to say this.

1c have done an exellent job with il2, the modders have done an exellent job with the sound mod( not hack). dont see why they dont get together for the infamous 4.09, and make it the best patch ever. btw is it still the usual 2 weeks before launch lol

personally, and i DON'T speak for the rest of the world, i would think if they dont, then 4.09 would not be touched.
here's hoping.

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree with that one.. if they hacked the sim they will hack the 4.09... however... below is a quote from a post made to me at the AAA forum, which I signed up for under my name... As of now I still have not used any of the mods and as of this time have no intention of doing so for all the reasons I stated in previous posts on these boards... After 4.09 and Oleg's final contribution to the sim? Who knows.... I don't... but I do know that this issue is not going to go away.. it wont change.. so we either learn to live with it to some extent... or move on. A great griot once said... "Change is inevitable, therefore it is better to attempt to direct that change rather than simply go through it..." I have placed asterisks in the names of some of the others who I quoted because I don't have their permission to attach their names to their quotes, and they aren't the issue anyway.....

<sub>
Bearcat can I ask you a favour m8?

I know alot of folks from UBI come here without registering to look/download or whatever they do, but if you posted at UBI that you've come over here and posted the above or something in the same vein, maybe the mis-trust between both the folks at UBI and here would be clearer, but keep the thread open as I and many other people here who have registered here under the same name here as at UBI would go over there and put this Sites opinon without having a flame-war.

It would at least be the start of something positive for both sides m8 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The two quotes from above are from threads at UBI....

This has to stop.. because it is what it is... and there is no turning back.... as I said.. I have not used any of the mods as of today.. I still don't know if I will or not.. but to me, to keep this rift alive is just silly and a waste of time and energy. The way I see it the issue should no longer be do you use the hacks/mods/macks whatever... or not... but A)Is the integrity of online flying still important to you? and B)What are you willing to do to ante up and make sure that the atmosphere that we fly in is more conducive to flying honorably. I am not naive enough to think that all those who use this thing are going to hop into some Franken plane... say 109K-14 on a 109E skin etc... but I am also not so naive as to think that the contrary is impossible. It is what it is and this aspect of modding is the thing that has me and so many others worried.... but the cat is out... the box is now open... What happens from here on out is largely up to us.... so what kind of sim world will we make? As I said in another post... just because the sim has been hacked doesn't automatically mean that the sim has to go to h@ll in a steamer trunk in no time... because the bottom line is whether it does or it doesn't.. the sim is till hacked... so we all need to move on and redefine some things. </sub>

The quotes that the original poster were referring to are posts that I made here @ UBI in a few other threads... here are those posts, BTW I went over there and got flamed big time, but thats cool I have a prtty thick skin... What is most important to me and what should now be moved to the forefront of everyone's thinking is... keeping the integrity of the use of the sim online:

<sub>This is all I am saying....


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!!

LOOK... the deed is friggin DONE y'hear!! DONE!!!! All the finger pointing, name calling, accusations, legal rhetoric and posturing will not change a dadgummed thing.. not one bit.. Not only that.. at this point I doubt that 4.09 will change very much for long if at all... and even if it did with all that is in 4.08 do you really think that those who have hacked the sim will just .... toss all that to go fly 4.09? H@ll no!! There is enough in 4.08.. to keep everyone busy... the switcher batch file is old news so folks... GET OVER IT!!!! ALL OF YOU!!! ON BOTH SIDES!!!!

Will it ruin the sim? Well at this point that's up to us isn't it? Those guys that say they are on the up and up should also work on something to keep the integrity of the sim within the context of the Frankenstein they created. We all may see this monster sitting around the dinner table with his wife singing opera ala Mel Brooks one day... Who knows...? It is still largely up to us and to those who have hacked the sim to set the tone for the future.. because the milk is on the deck.... either get a mop or go find a cat... anything but keep this stuff going.

If you want to use the darned thing then use it... and STFU about it... if you don't want to use it then don't... and STFU about it... all this back and forth nonsense is just OLD.. it is really OLD. All of you ... It is time to STFU about the thing and fly or don't fly, use it or don't use it.... PERIOD.

THE END </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

and...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">.. it's just that this back and forth thing between the pros and cons is getting old... it is what it is... we need to move on from here and try to keep the goal at maintaining the integrity of the sim as best we can... whether or not that means not tolerating any out of order behavior online by establishing a mindset that is intolerant with cheating or whatever.. but to keep going back and forth about the pros and cons is just a waste of time and energy. If maintaining the integrity of the sim means going hack free to you then so be it.... if it means not using hacked FMs then so be it... but it is time to move on.

Whether or not this takes the usual turn of events where hacks are concerned is largely up to us... if we let it become a free for all then anything will go.. if we no longer have the integrity of the sim we had then we need to maintain the integrity of the use of the sim.. by keeping our focus on the flying ... and not the crying. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



at least you have the courage to come under your own well known name

i suspect several detractors from the ubi forums have sneeked in with a new name

there are bad bananas in every bunch....I know .....we have several trees outside my backdoor here in the Thai jungle....but we don't blame the tree.......or throw away the good ones

Happy Thanksgiving

I have nothing to hide... and nothing to prove... I can only hold an opinion for so long based on limited info... and as the info changes I need to update that info in my head because things like this do not exist in a vacuum. My initial impression of this thing was what I have seen in other sims, which was for the most part not good for competitive online flying. Like I said.... modding is not bad... but the other stuff that comes with it is.... the bad stuff.. and me like everyone else that is concerned about the whole issue is concerned primarily about that. The only way I can find out more without DLdng it, which I am still at this point not ready to do is to find out.. go to the source... Do I think modding=cheating? Of course not... that is silly... Do I think that modding can open the way to cheating? Absolutely.. it is a proven fact... so all I can do is investigate and see just what is going on... and I don't have to DL the mods to see that.. I can get a good idea of the intentions of the modders and some of it's users.. the overall tone just by listening.. and thats what I am doing. The fact that the mod exists means that there will be some folks who will use it to cheat if possible.. there will always be people who will do that if they can... So far I have seen, aside from the rudeness of some, a desire to do exactly what I was saying in the two quotes from posts I made @ UBI... only time will tell where it goes.. but we as the IL2 community, pro & con mod.. will play a large roll in determining how all this falls out. This could be the best thing that ever happened to the sim when it is all said and done... or it could go the way of so many other sims that became moddable.... it is all up to us and the standards for implementation that we set... and thats all I am trying to get a feel for... that and what they are, what they do etc.... I may even offer some suggestions.... but for now I am just looking.</sub>

So to answer zoli's original post... I think they will wind up hacking 4.09 also... Whether or not that will be a sign of their greed or ignorance.. I can't judge that..

I will continue to fly the sim regardless... and I will fly online... and I will kick anyone who I think is flying modded AC from 99th servers... or istruct our hosts to do so.. I dont klnow where all this is going.. was I disappointed when it happened? You bet... but it is here now... and all the griping and name calling and such will not change a thing... all that will do is fulfill the prediction of this fracturing the community. Right now IMO it has cracked the community... (No pun intended..) whether or not that crack turns into an out right break and if that happens how wide that rift would get I cant say... But I will say if you have any fondness for the sim or the community than some of you have been part of since the IL2 Demo came out... you will do what you can to insure that this sim and this community remains as unique in it's twilight years as it was in it's infancy, adolecence, adulthood and middle age... and that can only be achieved by attemting as best as possible to adhere to the spirit of the sim's legacy if adhereing to the letter of it is no longer possible.

Does that make sense? I ramble sometimes... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

ElAurens
11-22-2007, 09:35 PM
Bearcat, I must admit I am struggling with your stance on this issue, but I do respect your wishes about all the back and forth going on.

I have gone over there and looked around and I am frankly shocked that they are naive enough to think that no one is cheating online. They seem to think that no one uses the sound hack except on their server, and that no bogus planes have appeared online, which is patent nonsense. They have created a monster which in now turning on them, and it's very distressing to see them squirming trying to justify their actions.

Next month will be my sixth year of involvement with this series, and like a lot of folks here it has become more than just a mere game. It's such a shame to see it brought down to the level of a common first person shooter. I hope Oleg can thwart this thing with 4.09 at least long enough to get SOW:BoB launched, because the reality of online cheating is making it difficult to consider clicking that Hyperlobby icon on my desktop anymore. Time will tell.

I will stand down from these threads for awhile and see how it goes, but in all honesty I fear we have lost something quite special.

LEBillfish
11-23-2007, 12:03 AM
Sorry.....Yet I find it impossible to take the stance of...."Wrong/bad things are happening, and will continue to do so...So give into it and get used to it."

As I've said often.....There are many things, more then most care to list I'd love to see changed in the sim.

F6 made switchable
Default skins correct for season, map, maybe even unit
Dirt runways and base objects
more planes then we have in the sim
All of the AI to be flyable
correct damage models
correct roll rates
a Wewak area New Guinea map
etc. etc. etc.

I'd pay a fortune for these.....Yet.....I'll not give up the integrity of the product for them.

I really have no issue with the fact folks want certain things and fight to make them happen...That's what you should do if you want something..........Yet I have major issues with sacrificing everything, to all it will affect (all players of IL2) to have that one thing.

It's irresponsible, wreckless, selfish and uncaring of others. Pat answers like "tough, get used to it"...."learn to live with it"..."gee I hope someone finds a way of protecting from "our" irresponsibility but we're going to continue" and so on even more irresponsible as it states clearly...."I care so little, so focussed on my singular petty want I'll sacrifice all of you to get it, what's more, I'll make it even worse to prove a point and secure its existence for all the bad it might do".

No one here is so absolutly naive to believe there are not those who cheat....Or that every cheater is so absolutly stupid they'll make it obvious to all.......Yet most who will cheat given half the chance have not the sense to figure out how...It's their nature, too lazy to learn to master something so most likely too lazy to learn how to cheat it.......UNLESS.....It's handed to them on a silver platter and laid out as to how.

That is the real situation now.....All the tools, advice, ability and information has been laid out in such a way it makes it easy....Think not?....What if I replace all axis default skins before loading them with a flourecent pink square, and all allied flourecent chartruse?

So my issue not with folks trying, making an effort, working to improve what we all love and want and then offering it up for the betterment of all...............It's the "My want, my way, F*** doing it wisely, F*** all of you, Here's my dig at Ubi/MaddoxGames, and though knowing it's wrong I'll be so small as to make it worse to prove my point vs. try and correct it" attitude.

A typical "better to rule in h*ll then serve in heaven" mindset........and just what I'd expect from a rebellious child......Yet these aren't children, so how does that rank them?

Sad part is 6 years of respect for many simply proved unfounded. It's a shame.

fly_zo
11-23-2007, 01:46 AM
...and after all your effort Bearcat ....here she goes again ... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

sure certain age brings funny personality change to some women .... well lets blame hormones http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

rnzoli
11-23-2007, 01:49 AM
Bearcat, I am also tired of this back-and-forth posts, which develop around everything that even slightly touches upon the issue of unofficial mods.

Therefore I re-iterated my very first proposal several weeks ago: we need a sticky Q&A (locked) about the most frequently asked questions for the mods. I can try to write up something like this from a balanced point of view.

I don't think the debate can change anything, but do you really expect us the watch the lies and misunderstandings around the mods go around uncommented from our (pro-IL2) side?

fly_zo
11-23-2007, 01:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
Bearcat, I am also tired of this back-and-forth posts, which develop around everything that even slightly touches upon the issue of unofficial mods.

Therefore I re-iterated my very first proposal several weeks ago: we need a sticky Q&A (locked) about the most frequently asked questions for the mods. I can try to write up something like this from a balanced point of view.

I don't think the debate can change anything, but do you really expect us the watch the lies and misunderstandings around the mods go around uncommented from our (pro-IL2) side? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

how can you have balanced point of view when you declare yourself pro-IL2 and leave us to be contra IL2 ( we are not contraIL2!) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

rnzoli
11-23-2007, 02:00 AM
Simple. I look at the big picture instead of looking at my own little interests. Maybe it sounds impossible to some, but actually I have enough experience to do it.

On the other hand, don't expect any promotion of the mods, only fair treatment/clarifications. This is the site of the official game, without support for the mods.

You promote your mods elsewhere. If they are so good as you claim, there is no need to promote it on these forums.

fly_zo
11-23-2007, 02:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
Simple. I look at the big picture instead of looking at my own little interests. Maybe it sounds impossible to some, but actually I have enough experience to do it.

On the other hand, don't expect any promotion of the mods, only fair treatment/clarifications. This is the site of the official game, without support for the mods.

You promote your mods elsewhere. If they are so good as you claim, there is no need to promote it on these forums. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

and that is your big picture? ...looks pretty nearsighted to me (like egoistic onliner) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

rnzoli
11-23-2007, 02:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fly_zo:
( we are not contraIL2!) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
One thing needs to be clear: a modded IL-2 is not the official product any longer. I was referring to the IL-2 that was released by Oleg Maddox.

fly_zo
11-23-2007, 02:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fly_zo:
( we are not contraIL2!) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
One thing needs to be clear: a modded IL-2 is not the official product any longer. I was referring to the IL-2 that was released by Oleg Maddox. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

so you don't have custom skins sound and backgrounds installed i take it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

rnzoli
11-23-2007, 02:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fly_zo:
and that is your big picture? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, the big picture would be in the Q&A.
Example: A sound mod is not a cheat by itself. It's the tools, which create the mods, increase the risks of other type of mods that could be used to gain unfair advantage in online play.

What's so egoistic about the above?

rnzoli
11-23-2007, 02:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fly_zo:
so you don't have custom skins sound and backgrounds installed i take it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're starting to mix up add-ons with intrusive hacks.

1) To have custom skins, I don't need to rely on hacker tools. The keyword is: non-intrusive.

2) To have the sound mod, you have to rely on a hacked IL-2. The keyword is: intrusive.

fly_zo
11-23-2007, 02:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fly_zo:
and that is your big picture? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, the big picture would be in the Q&A.
Example: A sound mod is not a cheat by itself. It's the tools, which create the mods, increase the risks of other type of mods that could be used to gain unfair advantage in online play.

What's so egoistic about the above? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

apsolutely nothing ... with that i agree 100% and if you manage not to include "name calling" wrapped in philosophical questions ... You have my full support !

fly_zo
11-23-2007, 02:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fly_zo:
so you don't have custom skins sound and backgrounds installed i take it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're starting to mix up add-ons with intrusive hacks.

1) To have custom skins, I don't need to rely on hacker tools. The keyword is: non-intrusive.

2) To have the sound mod, you have to rely on a hacked IL-2. The keyword is: intrusive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

which brings us to the no-cd.... nah never mind i give up

rnzoli
11-23-2007, 02:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">which brings us to the no-cd.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Interesting comparison, IMHO the community has been fairly tight and disciplined on the subject you mentioned, probably because everyone understood that spreading that would hurt our developer. Obviously we are more split on the mod issue, deeply split (too deeply to reconcile, but at least we should find ways to live besides each other, if together isn't possible right now).

fly_zo
11-23-2007, 03:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">which brings us to the no-cd.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Interesting comparison, IMHO the community has been fairly tight and disciplined on the subject you mentioned, probably because everyone understood that spreading that would hurt our developer. Obviously we are more split on the mod issue, deeply split (too deeply to reconcile, but at least we should find ways to live besides each other, if together isn't possible right now). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

... so there is no use for creation one point of view QA thread... than ... and living besides each other i as Croatian know very well ...

rnzoli
11-23-2007, 03:48 AM
The Q&A would help to prevent both sides going to extremes.

There are already a few things both sides know and even agree on, but these things sink as the threads go locked.

So at least we shouldn't start fighting over those agreed things over and over again, when someone clueless comes along and posts something ridiculuous, lighting a match in an ammo dump.

*edit* : LOL, we literally live besides each other, at least geographically http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

fly_zo
11-23-2007, 03:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
The Q&A would help to prevent both sides going to extremes.

There are already a few things both sides know and even agree on, but these things sink as the threads go locked.

So at least we shouldn't start fighting over those agreed things over and over again, when someone clueless comes along and posts something ridiculuous, lighting a match in an ammo dump.

*edit* : LOL, we literally live besides each other, at least geographically http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

agree http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

was nice arguing with you, neighbor http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

no hard feelings and
all the best
Z

bigbossmalone
11-23-2007, 04:11 AM
Whichever way this whole thing ends up going, I hope that we can still maintain the community that has built up here over the years, as well as welcome newcomers to the fold - wishful thinking?
I've been a member here for awhile now, and it has been my best online experience with regards assistance, information, or just a good laugh. We are now divided over the mod issue...how we deal with it is up to us. Those that have been to the other site will have seen that I'm one of 'them', as well. Although I have and use the mod - at the moment, it's entirely offline (I use my stock IL2 install for the rare occasion that I go online) - I really hope that in the months to come we can somehow reconcile with the 'here's' and 'there's' - it's sad to have built up so much respect for people over the years, only to see the divide that has arisen over the mod.
At the end of the day, we are all here because we love IL2. That should be the bottom line.
As a (I think) majority adult community, there must be some reasonable way to deal with these issues in the future. There is always, as with any community, going to be that minority of cheating troublemakers. It will be up to the rest (majority) of us to identify these few and get rid of them. Obviously, I can't speak for all the pro-modders, but MOST of us are long-time supporters of IL2, and as there is not going to be any support for IL2 after 4.09, it will be up to the community to keep it alive.
I don't know how, but it would be great if we could wrack our collective brain, and come up with some solution that might help to ease the well-founded fears in the online community.
BC often mentions the integrity of IL2, and at the risk of sounding hypocritical - that is one of the most important aspects of this sim, for me, too. The modding issue does put this integrity at risk at hte moment, but for all the energy many here spend on the flaming and rhetoric, let's try to work towards some feasible solution that might restore the integrity/community - imagine IL2 being cheatfree, all planes flyable, etc. Utopia.
Come on, guys (and girls) let's put some of this energy into trying to go the positive route on this one. Imagine what a first that would be for a great online community such as this.
G'day all... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

carguy_
11-23-2007, 05:35 AM
Hey Bearcat,as a mod you can lock all these threads and ban people but you can`t deny what is happening.

qui tacet, consentire videtur,

da mihi factum, dabo tibi ius,

fraus est fraudem celāre,

quod ab initio est vitiosum, non potest tractu temporis convalescere,

absens carens and most of all

pacta sunt servanda !


So if you say STFU to me then I say BITE ME to you! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Bearcat99
11-23-2007, 07:06 AM
Carguy... if you have nothing positive to say in this then please go away. If you are going to speak to me please do so in English. I have not gotten personal with you or anyone here in a negative way in any part of this thread so why are you doing that with me? Sure.. I could lock the threads and that will do nothing... Do not take this thread down the wrong road.. this issue is not going away. If we dont try to deal with it it will certainly deal with us.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
Bearcat, I must admit I am struggling with your stance on this issue, but I do respect your wishes about all the back and forth going on.

I have gone over there and looked around and I am frankly shocked that they are naive enough to think that no one is cheating online. They seem to think that no one uses the sound hack except on their server, and that no bogus planes have appeared online, which is patent nonsense. They have created a monster which in now turning on them, and it's very distressing to see them squirming trying to justify their actions.

Next month will be my sixth year of involvement with this series, and like a lot of folks here it has become more than just a mere game. It's such a shame to see it brought down to the level of a common first person shooter. I hope Oleg can thwart this thing with 4.09 at least long enough to get SOW:BoB launched, because the reality of online cheating is making it difficult to consider clicking that Hyperlobby icon on my desktop anymore. Time will tell.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with much that LB, zoli & El have said.... but beofre I go any farther.. Zo you gotta knock off the personal cracks man.. I am not having it... The next unhderhanded dig crack like that will get you a ban.

That is why I have not DLd any of the hacks yet. But as I said.. this thing isn't going away.. and I am not willing to give up on the sim... and zoli is right.. this is not the place to promote the mods... unless/until Oleg gives them his blessing.. and that is not the stance I am taking. I am not saying that we should give up our views on this and yes without a doubt:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">No, the big picture would be in the Q&A.
Example: A sound mod is not a cheat by itself. It's the tools, which create the mods, increase the risks of other type of mods that could be used to gain unfair advantage in online play. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is the whole crux of the matter...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">so you don't have custom skins sound and backgrounds installed i take it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Zo you cant compare custom skins, backgrounds or sounds to anything in the mods... so stop going there... and the no/cd is the same thing... it doesn't alter the code,, having the no cd file does nothing more than let you play the sim without the CD.. granted it would also allow for multiple installs.. but that was not hacking the sim... so stop comparing the mods to that.... bananas and grapes.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You're starting to mix up add-ons with intrusive hacks.

1) To have custom skins, I don't need to rely on hacker tools. The keyword is: non-intrusive.

2) To have the sound mod, you have to rely on a hacked IL-2. The keyword is: intrusive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



and don't think that just because I went over to the AAA forum that my views have changed... but I like to be informed so that my choices can be made in a better context. That is all I am trying to do... not only that.. as I said... as a community we must.. WE MUST deal with this... if we don't then all the worse things will come true. They may anyway... since after all the bad side of modding seems to be more a nature than nurture issue.. but we can still try to direct the change...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">At the end of the day, we are all here because we love IL2. That should be the bottom line.
As a (I think) majority adult community, there must be some reasonable way to deal with these issues in the future. There is always, as with any community, going to be that minority of cheating troublemakers. It will be up to the rest (majority) of us to identify these few and get rid of them. Obviously, I can't speak for all the pro-modders, but MOST of us are long-time supporters of IL2, and as there is not going to be any support for IL2 after 4.09, it will be up to the community to keep it alive.
I don't know how, but it would be great if we could wrack our collective brain, and come up with some solution that might help to ease the well-founded fears in the online community.
BC often mentions the integrity of IL2, and at the risk of sounding hypocritical - that is one of the most important aspects of this sim, for me, too. The modding issue does put this integrity at risk at hte moment, but for all the energy many here spend on the flaming and rhetoric, let's try to work towards some feasible solution that might restore the integrity/community - imagine IL2 being cheatfree, all planes flyable, etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is all I am saying....

flyingloon
11-23-2007, 07:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
Hey Bearcat,as a mod you can lock all these threads and ban people but you can`t deny what is happening.

qui tacet, consentire videtur,

da mihi factum, dabo tibi ius,

fraus est fraudem celāre,

quod ab initio est vitiosum, non potest tractu temporis convalescere,

absens carens and most of all

pacta sunt servanda !


So if you say STFU to me then I say BITE ME to you! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

thursday called, it wants it's reply back

fly_zo
11-23-2007, 07:28 AM
@bearcat:

suit yourself but i don't think that simple browsing through AAA may give you much info unless only purpose of visit was searching for evidence of changin FM .

Funny, in your attempt to reconcile community you did find time to point out negative responds to your visit and somehow fail to mention all the good ones.

But the fact remains you online people started calling names for anyone who uses sound mod and until that stops there will be no peace ...

Outlaw---
11-23-2007, 08:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fly_zo:
But the fact remains you online people started calling names for anyone who uses sound mod and until that stops there will be no peace ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of the main reasons for the above is the attitude that it is a "mod". It isn't and there is no way to justify the hack as a mod. If you would like to see how a mod works, google "how to mod unreal tournament" or any of the many other moddable games.

IL-2 does NOT have an exposed API, therefore it can't be modded, it can only be hacked. Arguing that it's a mod is like arguing that the English word "human" really refers to a cube of calcined mixture of clay and limestone mixed with sand and other aggregates. No matter how often you call it a "human", it's still just a concrete block.

Also, for those that are asking for Oleg to merge the hack sounds into the game keep in mind that those sounds are stolen from another game. They are not original. He can't legally distribute them b/c they are not his.

--Outlaw.

LEBillfish
11-23-2007, 08:24 AM
fly_zo!.......Read the words EXACTLY as I type them.....


NO ONE is stating the folks at your site are making cheats for the sim.

NO ONE is stating that we do NOT want improvements and additions to the sim.

However....

Many of us ARE saying the way your alterations are presented ALLOW cheats from the average person MUCH MUCH more easily.

Many of us are also saying the way/method your group went about it was wrong.......and by supporting that wrong, it encourages even greater wrongs.


You cannot deny it.......By your little core group stating "we will determine what is right and wrong sim wise now....to keep it from being cheats"...........Is simply you taking the authority for something that is not yours to do so with....and frankly, from how and why you have done so, plus the irresponsible manner in which your group has........I do NOT trust any of you to make responsible decisions that affect an aspect of my life (flying the sim).


What's more, in the rush to see how much of "Oleg Maddox designed Flight Simulation" you can tear at and hack apart to change....You have already altered things and are discussing more that give anyone who uses them an advantage over others.....So cheats in some cases point blank no matter how minor.

To continue to do so, in fact to take an even harder line to do so, already shows that many in your community are all for changing FMs/DMs, extended views out of the norm (6dof & altering obstructions within planes).....and therefor proving that some already intend to cheat the game past what you state.


Now you can take as hard a line as you want to defend the actions of your group......Yet know defending wrong actions and justifying them to protect yourself is just as wrong as the indiscretion commited.


In either case......You will find little support or respect from those who love the sim and wish to protect it.....Yet ALL of them wanting the same things you do, simply realizing that what one would give up to have them if done wrong would cost us all everything.



In the end you forget.......Oleg stated once BoB was out he would release the tools to generate anything we wanted to certain "trusted" 3rd party developers......My guess is due to the activities of your group, any hope for that is gone, worse still, why would anyone do so now as their work will be instantly corrupted by your group upon release.

This has hurt us all and the sim more then you realize.

flyingloon
11-23-2007, 08:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Outlaw---:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fly_zo:
But the fact remains you online people started calling names for anyone who uses sound mod and until that stops there will be no peace ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of the main reasons for the above is the attitude that it is a "mod". It isn't and there is no way to justify the hack as a mod. If you would like to see how a mod works, google "how to mod unreal tournament" or any of the many other moddable games.

IL-2 does NOT have an exposed API, therefore it can't be modded, it can only be hacked. Arguing that it's a mod is like arguing that the English word "human" really refers to a cube of calcined mixture of clay and limestone mixed with sand and other aggregates. No matter how often you call it a "human", it's still just a concrete block.

Also, for those that are asking for Oleg to merge the hack sounds into the game keep in mind that those sounds are stolen from another game. They are not original. He can't legally distribute them b/c they are not his.

--Outlaw. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

not sure where i read it but the guy credited with the sounds came out and posted that they weren't taken from any other game, and were therefore copyright free. for the record.

rnzoli
11-23-2007, 08:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">not sure where i read it but [...] for the record. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

carguy_
11-23-2007, 08:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Carguy... if you have nothing positive to say in this then please go away. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see you want to make a consensus with people who completely ignore the other side of the issue, mainly: the onliners.Certain individuals support the hack because it benefits them and that`s it.They refuse to acknowlege the bigger picture of consequences, especially the obvious ones.They require you to get along and accept what is done AGAINST the developper and AGAINST the law.Also promoting the hacks almost daily here which means you messed up.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
If you are going to speak to me please do so in English. I have not gotten personal with you or anyone here in a negative way in any part of this thread so why are you doing that with me? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I`m directing this at you because you bare some of the responsibility for keeping this issue OUT OF THESE BOARDS ALTOGHETHER.You`re not only letting this happen but you oppose those who do not accept such events.2nd case is that other mods are silent about this whole thing, doing nothing.

The Roman sentences I wrote were intended to present the basic rules of interaction which are being stepped on from the start of this farse.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Sure.. I could lock the threads and that will do nothing... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can do better than that.A simple answer to this.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Do not take this thread down the wrong road.. this issue is not going away. If we dont try to deal with it it will certainly deal with us. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah,maybe but do you have to allow topics such as "should I use the mod or not?" ?I think that the message should be clear - no hack in this forum for the obvious reasons.

================================================


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">thursday called, it wants it's reply back </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If yo can direct me I`ll see what I can do.


================================================

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But the fact remains you online people started calling names for anyone who uses sound mod and until that stops there will be no peace ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That`s rich.Making victims of yourself only reveals your position on the whole issue.You would sure like some of us to accept the issue as it is because you don`t care about anything else than your personal entertainment.The case is slightly different I`m afraid.


================================================

That said I get the feeling that people standing behind Oleg Maddox`s creation and respecting his personal rights are getting crucified here.I get the feeling that none of such people are welcome here anymore.We`re getting blamed for all the riot here, for opposing something UNACCEPTABLE.


I think Bearcat that you`re the most hard working mod round here interacting with the crowd and I appreciate it.I get the impression though that you are completely misoriented in the issue.

JG52Uther
11-23-2007, 08:58 AM
And around it goes again.There will never be a common ground here,no matter how many want it.

flyingloon
11-23-2007, 09:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">not sure where i read it but [...] for the record. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well i can't, and i can't find it just now, but i did see it. hey, maybe look for yourself? it's out there

jasonbirder
11-23-2007, 09:03 AM
I find it laughable that people who are so opposed to the "Mod" are keen to point out the difference between this "mod" and other ammendments to the game - particularly the No CD hack, the EULA makes no distinction between these nor indeed if you interpreted it literally to any other ammendments to the game - new medals, speech packs, splash screens etc.
Now I think everyone - onliners and offliners are quite happy for us to breach the EULA in that way - so why the venom directed at the sound mod? Its not a moral reaction to altering the game or breach of the EULA its a simple user preference - onliners want a stock game unmodded, offliners want to see what community modding can bring to the table, particularly as post 4.09 development for IL2 will stop.
UBI run this forum, not 1C and UBI don't have a particularly strong anti-modding policy - go visit the LOMAC or Silent Hunter Forums and see whats being posted there. Thats why there has been no user ban/thread delete policy enforced on this forum - UBI don't care they are quite happy for User Mods to exist for the games they publish...Its only Onliners and possibly Oleg that are opposed to it!

flyingloon
11-23-2007, 09:12 AM
good points jason.

ElAurens
11-23-2007, 09:12 AM
There can never be "common ground" as long as the actuality of rampant and easy to achieve online cheating is on the table.

And before things get even more over heated because of that comment let me say that I do understand why the offliners have glommed on to the hack so fervently. The offline game leaves much to be desired, be sure. However "better" sounds and poorly realized aircraft models are not the panacea. Improving the AI and the structure of campaigns/careers is, and neither of these things are addressed by the hack.

One of the great quotes I saw over there was "Every day is Christmas here". However, I'm afraid that like so many new Christmas toys, in six months they will lay in a heap, broken and forgotten, with the rest of the ashes of this sim.

A sad state of affairs.

flyingloon
11-23-2007, 09:24 AM
and there are also the alterations to (destroyed object) smoke visibility distance, can see it from a few thousand feet now, navlights reduced so they aren't ridiculously bright at 10k distance, AI no longer using navlights at all so wildsau missions are plausible, no more sound radar on certain settings, higher resolution cockpit skins...

DuxCorvan
11-23-2007, 09:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:

qui tacet, consentire videtur,

da mihi factum, dabo tibi ius,

fraus est fraudem celāre,

quod ab initio est vitiosum, non potest tractu temporis convalescere,

absens carens and most of all

pacta sunt servanda !
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quam iusta sunt verba tua! Dura lex sed lex. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

JG52Uther
11-23-2007, 09:24 AM
Thats a good point actually.So anyone with a 'no cd / no dvd crack is already running a hacked game?
Oh dear.

Outlaw---
11-23-2007, 09:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by flyingloon:
not sure where i read it but the guy credited with the sounds came out and posted that they weren't taken from any other game, and were therefore copyright free. for the record. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IF they truly are copyright free, then of course there would be no legal problems with Oleg using them, however, just because they, "...weren't taken from any other game..." does NOT mean they are copyright free. For the record.

--Outlaw.

flyingloon
11-23-2007, 09:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Outlaw---:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by flyingloon:
not sure where i read it but the guy credited with the sounds came out and posted that they weren't taken from any other game, and were therefore copyright free. for the record. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IF they truly are copyright free, then of course there would be no legal problems with Oleg using them, however, just because they, "...weren't taken from any other game..." does NOT mean they are copyright free. For the record.

--Outlaw. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

fair point, wouldn't recording them at an airshow or from (somehow) getting access to these various engines be the way round it though?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG52Uther:
Thats a good point actually.So anyone with a 'no cd / no dvd crack is already running a hacked game?
Oh dear. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
and yeah, this has been raised before, and ignored completely.

LEBillfish
11-23-2007, 10:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
In the end you forget.......Oleg stated once BoB was out he would release the tools to generate anything we wanted to certain "trusted" 3rd party developers......My guess is due to the activities of your group, any hope for that is gone, worse still, why would anyone do so now as their work will be instantly corrupted by your group upon release.

This has hurt us all and the sim more then you realize. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

rnzoli
11-23-2007, 10:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by flyingloon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">not sure where i read it but [...] for the record. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well i can't, and i can't find it just now, but i did see it. hey, maybe look for yourself? it's out there </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let's put it this way - You bring your evidence, I bring mine (like I did for quoting Oleg). So either you do your homework and it will be "for the record", or state that your information is not traceable, with a humble IIRC or "I think" or something like that.

With vague references like "search for yourself", this is anything but "for the record". Maybe for the record of your poor argumentation? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

JG52Uther
11-23-2007, 10:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG52Uther:
Thats a good point actually.So anyone with a 'no cd / no dvd crack is already running a hacked game?
Oh dear. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

rnzoli
11-23-2007, 10:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by flyingloon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG52Uther:
Thats a good point actually.So anyone with a 'no cd / no dvd crack is already running a hacked game?
Oh dear. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
and yeah, this has been raised before, and ignored completely. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, from a purely technical perspective, your are totally wrong.

The n0-ceedee solution appears to be a modified variant of the un-encrypted il2fb.exe file, which actually holds no information about FM, sounds etc. I also think that the il2fb.exe file is the product of UBI, because Oleg once commented (wrt Boonty) that this area is the publisher's responsibility, not his.

Your hack/mod manipulates the .SFS files, which are strongly encripted to prevent unathorized manipulation of FM, sounds etc. This area is certainly the product of Oleg, which he personally tried to protect as much as he could.

Did you get the significant differences from the above comparison?

Bearcat99
11-23-2007, 10:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fly_zo:
@bearcat:

suit yourself but i don't think that simple browsing through AAA may give you much info unless only purpose of visit was searching for evidence of changin FM .

Funny, in your attempt to reconcile community you did find time to point out negative responds to your visit and somehow fail to mention all the good ones.

But the fact remains you online people started calling names for anyone who uses sound mod and until that stops there will be no peace ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was part of my point... but for the record yes after the initial head smacks I was received well.. and the forum admins never gave me grief.. just a few members... I received the same kind of response that some of the pro mod people get over here from some of our members... Sorry if that wasn't clear... and yes you are right.. I wanted to see evidence of any mods that change FMs.. or modders.. NOT.. <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">and this is important so please read carefully before you respond zo</span> .. that to say that any of the originators of the mod have that intention... I believe many of their intentions are good because I know some of them from around here.. but by opening the code with the sfs extractor and making the extractor available to anyone with a PC it leaves the door wide open.. it removes the door infact.. and I want to see if anyone else has done that.. and if so what. I have to find out for myself where these mods are going.. and I recommend that all of us who are ambivalent to them do the same. I never EVER and most of the anti mod people for the most part accused the modders of being cheaters.. but we are concerned about the potential for cheating.

Does that make sense? I hope I was clear...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
fly_zo!.......Read the words EXACTLY as I type them.....

NO ONE is stating the folks at your site are making cheats for the sim.

NO ONE is stating that we do NOT want improvements and additions to the sim.

However....

Many of us ARE saying the way your alterations are presented ALLOW cheats from the average person MUCH MUCH more easily.


What's more, in the rush to see how much of "Oleg Maddox designed Flight Simulation" you can tear at and hack apart to change....You have already altered things and are discussing more that give anyone who uses them an advantage over others.....So cheats in some cases point blank no matter how minor.

To continue to do so, in fact to take an even harder line to do so, already shows that many in your community are all for changing FMs/DMs, extended views out of the norm (6dof & altering obstructions within planes).....and therefor proving that some already intend to cheat the game past what you state.

Now you can take as hard a line as you want to defend the actions of your group......Yet know defending wrong actions and justifying them to protect yourself is just as wrong as the indiscretion commited.


In either case......You will find little support or respect from those who love the sim and wish to protect it.....Yet ALL of them wanting the same things you do, simply realizing that what one would give up to have them if done wrong would cost us all everything.



In the end you forget.......Oleg stated once BoB was out he would release the tools to generate anything we wanted to certain "trusted" 3rd party developers......My guess is due to the activities of your group, any hope for that is gone, worse still, why would anyone do so now as their work will be instantly corrupted by your group upon release.

This has hurt us all and the sim more then you realize. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly.... but my point in this whole thing is.... [i]the deed is done. It cannot be undone.... So we need to approach this from a different angle since the core issues have changed because of that fact. Just because the pro modders do not see our point of view and we don't see theirs...means that nothing will be accomplished by the acrimonious back and forth slah and burn. We all need to tone down the finger pointing, accusatory rhetoric because those basic views will not change on either side.. and neither will the facts...If we just stay in the who is right and who is wrong mode we all will wind up loosing. I don't care if the initial modders admit (as opposed to some of the ones who are now making mods but had no hand in the extractor's initial release) that perhaps they went about it wrong or not.. That point is moot... the issue is... it is here now how will we handle it. The truth is .... if we don't get past the personal attacks and name calling etc.. we won't. We will just continue to splinter...


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
I see you want to make a consensus with people who completely ignore the other side of the issue, mainly: the onliners.Certain individuals support the hack because it benefits them and that`s it.They refuse to acknowlege the bigger picture of consequences, especially the obvious ones.They require you to get along and accept what is done AGAINST the developper and AGAINST the law.Also promoting the hacks almost daily here which means you messed up.
I`m directing this at you because you bare some of the responsibility for keeping this issue OUT OF THESE BOARDS ALTOGHETHER.You`re not only letting this happen but you oppose those who do not accept such events.2nd case is that other mods are silent about this whole thing, doing nothing.
The Roman sentences I wrote were intended to present the basic rules of interaction which are being stepped on from the start of this farse.
You can do better than that.A simple answer to this.
That`s rich.Making victims of yourself only reveals your position on the whole issue.You would sure like some of us to accept the issue as it is because you don`t care about anything else than your personal entertainment.The case is slightly different I`m afraid.
That said I get the feeling that people standing behind Oleg Maddox`s creation and respecting his personal rights are getting crucified here.I get the feeling that none of such people are welcome here anymore.We`re getting blamed for all the riot here, for opposing something UNACCEPTABLE.

I think Bearcat that you`re the most hard working mod round here interacting with the crowd and I appreciate it.I get the impression though that you are completely misoriented in the issue. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No I am not misoriented.. I see the issue QUITE CLEARLY.. but I also see the bigger picture... whether we like it or not this will not go away.. so we either deal with it or don't.. but I am sick of this back and forth debate going on.. because it changes nothing. Nowhere have I advocated using the hacks... but to not even talk about it except to point fingers and trade insults is [icrazy man.... dont you see that??!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG52Uther:
And around it goes again.There will never be a common ground here,no matter how many want it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am beginning to think you are right...


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jasonbirder:
I find it laughable that people who are so opposed to the "Mod" are keen to point out the difference between this "mod" and other ammendments to the game - particularly the No CD hack, the EULA makes no distinction between these nor indeed if you interpreted it literally to any other ammendments to the game - new medals, speech packs, splash screens etc.
Now I think everyone - onliners and offliners are quite happy for us to breach the EULA in that way - so why the venom directed at the sound mod? Its not a moral reaction to altering the game or breach of the EULA its a simple user preference - onliners want a stock game unmodded, offliners want to see what community modding can bring to the table, particularly as post 4.09 development for IL2 will stop.
UBI run this forum, not 1C and UBI don't have a particularly strong anti-modding policy - go visit the LOMAC or Silent Hunter Forums and see whats being posted there. Thats why there has been no user ban/thread delete policy enforced on this forum - UBI don't care they are quite happy for User Mods to exist for the games they publish...Its only Onliners and possibly Oleg that are opposed to it! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oleg is not possibly opposed to it... he is opposed to it.

You have raised some good points about UBI as well.. points that I had not considered... but you know.. we have gone through this so many times in this thread alone as to why the online flyers are opposed to the mods... Are we going to keep going round and round on this.. comparing the no cd crack to the hack... etc etc etc.... Can we just get off that treadmill...?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif Can we.....? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
In the end you forget.......Oleg stated once BoB was out he would release the tools to generate anything we wanted to certain "trusted" 3rd party developers......My guess is due to the activities of your group, any hope for that is gone, worse still, why would anyone do so now as their work will be instantly corrupted by your group upon release.
This has hurt us all and the sim more then you realize. </div></BLOCKQUOTE></span>

We shall see thats for sure.. and sooner rather than later... but still... it wont change today....

rnzoli
11-23-2007, 10:21 AM
As we are heading towards a lock faster than the speed of sound, here is an intermediate poll count, as of right now:

1 (2%) 4.09 stays unhacked by modders.

58 (98%) They will drive the breaking of 4.09 immediately after the release.


Well, there go my personal illusions for sure... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

JG52Uther
11-23-2007, 10:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Did you get the significant differences from the above comparison? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, sorry.the nocd hack has been a major no no on this forum for as long as I have been here.To me,if its used,then the game is modified/hacked.

rnzoli
11-23-2007, 10:40 AM
Sure, but the level/impact of the modification is totally different. With one you hack UBI, with the other, you hack Oleg.

On the other hand, if you want to be loyal to the publisher AND the developer at the same time, both are big no-noes, as you say. Neither is legal anyway.

ElAurens
11-23-2007, 10:50 AM
The noCD is irrelevant to this discussion.

The noCD allows you to play without the game disk in the drive.

The hack tools allow you to fly with hacked FMs/DMs, thus destroying the online experience.

There is a huge qualitative difference here.

DrHerb
11-23-2007, 11:01 AM
One question, has anyone here ACTUALLY SEEN any iffy flying going on? I havent. The only evidence ive seen is a couple of videos from utube.

So many people are crying foul (I understand the morality behind breaking the .sfs code and that it is a bad thing to have done)

So my point is, before this becomes a flaming torch witch hunt and everybody accuses everybody of cheating by modifying the fm/dm's of the aircraft in this game I must ask one question.

Got Track?

Bearcat99
11-23-2007, 11:05 AM
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
In the end you forget.......Oleg stated once BoB was out he would release the tools to generate anything we wanted to certain "trusted" 3rd party developers......My guess is due to the activities of your group, any hope for that is gone, worse still, why would anyone do so now as their work will be instantly corrupted by your group upon release.
This has hurt us all and the sim more then you realize. </div></BLOCKQUOTE></span>

After giving this statement more thought it just occurred to me that ... if Oleg was going to sell licensing rights to 3rd parties.. then the hacke4rs have in effect taken money directly out of his pocket as surely as if they had downloaded a torrent of the sim.

fly_zo
11-23-2007, 11:07 AM
Bearcat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">that to say that any of the originators of the mod have that intention... I believe many of their intentions are good because I know some of them from around here.. but by opening the code with the sfs extractor and making the extractor available to anyone with a PC it leaves the door wide open.. it removes the door infact. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


... That door went down in version pre4.07 , there is no door anymore ok? I didn't brake them i just passed through ...using mod doesn't reopen anything ... those who want to cheat doesn't need mods . Tools are out there for a long time now ... way back before sound mod came out. Calling people thieves... disloyal...script kiddies wont prevent anybody from passing nonexistent door . It is like : Don't push that button! sign ...syndrome.

@rnzoli : eh majstore smijeno je da sam link za ekstraktor naao na 102nd forumu ....

rnzoli
11-23-2007, 11:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DrHerb:
One question, has anyone here ACTUALLY SEEN any iffy flying going on? I havent. The only evidence ive seen is a couple of videos from utube.

So many people are crying foul (I understand the morality behind breaking the .sfs code and that it is a bad thing to have done)

So my point is, before this becomes a flaming torch witch hunt and everybody accuses everybody of cheating by modifying the fm/dm's of the aircraft in this game I must ask one question.

Got Track? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is one reason I think a sticky Q&A would be useful.

In my experience, I haven't seen apparent cheating on the CRT=2 server I fly on - to date.

The reason for my "SKY IS FALLING" feeling is based on Oleg's risk assessment purely. If he thinks this is bad for online play, I have no reason to doubt the developer.

Maybe a simple cheat demo with the modding tools would put this issue at rest. Dunno. It's hard to demo the cheat capabilities of the hack, when I don't want to sign up for a download in the first place http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

rnzoli
11-23-2007, 11:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
After giving this statement more thought it just occurred to me that ... if Oleg was going to sell licensing rights to 3rd parties.. then the hacke4rs have in effect taken money directly out of his pocket as surely as if they had downloaded a torrent of the sim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You may be right http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
And that is practically money taken from the development budget of SoW:BoB.
Well done guys http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif

rnzoli
11-23-2007, 11:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fly_zo:
@rnzoli : eh majstore smijeno je da sam link za ekstraktor naao na 102nd forumu .... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You can be 100% sure it wasn't me, I am not admin for that, just the server.

DrHerb
11-23-2007, 11:24 AM
To be honest, I have the soundmod which Ive openly admitted to using online and offline. I never had any intention of using any utility to mess around any further. I also wholeheartedly believe that whoever has the soundmod doesnt have the intention of messing around with fm/dm's either and whoever does is not only cheating others, theyre cheating themselves out of a excellent game

flyingloon
11-23-2007, 11:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
The noCD is irrelevant to this discussion.

The noCD allows you to play without the game disk in the drive.

The hack tools allow you to fly with hacked FMs/DMs, thus destroying the online experience.

There is a huge qualitative difference here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the no-cd hack allows you to play the game without buying it. that's the point. a difference maybe, but the no-cd hack is more economically damaging. and as far as i recall Ubi and most others offer a cd replacement if your discs are damaged.
the mod/hack doesn't have any altered FM's or DM's publicly available. people may have tmapered with their personal installs using the tools, but this was possible with 4.05 anyway. indeed far more is possible in 4.05 and there appears to be some debate between modders as to whether they should revert to 4.05 in order to have more scope for alterations, up to and including new planes.
as it is, the online experience appears to be safe (for the time being) as the ckruntime=2 has been tested and found to be proof against the mods. they get instakicked. unless of course you are on a mod friendly server, in whihc case there is the all important element of trust and honour amongst fellow players.

edit oh and DrHerb, ditto.

edit2 bearcat, sadly you may be right there. although i'm not sure he was definite in this - after all why create competition for your own sim, which is surely what an extended life il-2 would represent if it had a similar team behind it as, say, BOB2:WOV

rnzoli
11-23-2007, 11:41 AM
So can we all agree to ban all discussions about n0-ceedee AND the mods/modding tools on these forums?

They both do damage to Oleg one way or another.

fly_zo
11-23-2007, 11:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
So can we all agree to ban all discussions about n0-ceedee AND the mods/modding tools on these forums?

They both do damage to Oleg one way or another. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

nope ... its fun and great for killing time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

DrHerb
11-23-2007, 11:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fly_zo:

nope ... its fun and great for killing time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And also a good way to kill productivity @ work, which is precisely what im doing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

flyingloon
11-23-2007, 11:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DrHerb:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fly_zo:

nope ... its fun and great for killing time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And also a good way to kill productivity @ work, which is precisely what im doing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
+1 up until an hour or so ago anyway
but yeah it has to cut both ways if you can't talk about it - as far as i recall the no-cd ban thing was just no links, as it is with the mod - but no " some hacking scum got me last night" when you get shot down fairly and can't accept it. has to be both ways - no promotion, no b1tching.

rnzoli
11-23-2007, 12:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">no promotion, no b1tching. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Absolutely a fine deal by me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
No promotion of the mods, no b!tching about the modders.
Threads/posts created by unsuspecting vistors locked and deleted.

I need to return to my peace-time productivity http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

flyingloon
11-23-2007, 12:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">no promotion, no b1tching. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Absolutely a fine deal by me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
No promotion of the mods, no b!tching about the modders.
Threads/posts created by unsuspecting vistors locked and deleted.

I need to return to my peace-time productivity http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
gets my vote, for what ever that's worth

Targ
11-23-2007, 12:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG52Uther:
Thats a good point actually.So anyone with a 'no cd / no dvd crack is already running a hacked game?
Oh dear. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How so ? UBI provides this no cd on the ubi web site for download.
Some of you people are really truly mis-informed.
Here is the link for you.
rts.dll link (http://ubisoft.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/ubisoft.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1109&p_created=1046901133&p_sid=ftguItRi&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX 3Jvd19jbnQ9MiwyJnBfcHJvZHM9MCZwX2NhdHM9JnBfcHY9JnB fY3Y9JnBfc2VhcmNoX3R5cGU9YW5zd2Vycy5zZWFyY2hfbmwmc F9wYWdlPTEmcF9zZWFyY2hfdGV4dD1ydHMuZGxs&p_li=&p_topview=1)

carguy_
11-23-2007, 12:38 PM
LOL!Down the drain http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Targ
11-23-2007, 12:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jasonbirder:
I find it laughable that people who are so opposed to the "Mod" are keen to point out the difference between this "mod" and other ammendments to the game - particularly the No CD hack, the EULA makes no distinction between these nor indeed if you interpreted it literally to any other ammendments to the game - new medals, speech packs, splash screens etc.
Now I think everyone - onliners and offliners are quite happy for us to breach the EULA in that way - so why the venom directed at the sound mod? Its not a moral reaction to altering the game or breach of the EULA its a simple user preference - onliners want a stock game unmodded, offliners want to see what community modding can bring to the table, particularly as post 4.09 development for IL2 will stop.
UBI run this forum, not 1C and UBI don't have a particularly strong anti-modding policy - go visit the LOMAC or Silent Hunter Forums and see whats being posted there. Thats why there has been no user ban/thread delete policy enforced on this forum - UBI don't care they are quite happy for User Mods to exist for the games they publish...Its only Onliners and possibly Oleg that are opposed to it! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

See my post above.
rts.dll has been available to download of the Ubi site for a very long time.

ElAurens
11-23-2007, 12:40 PM
Thanks Targ.

Targ
11-23-2007, 12:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
So can we all agree to ban all discussions about n0-ceedee AND the mods/modding tools on these forums?

They both do damage to Oleg one way or another. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The no CD thing is a steve_v obsession. UBI distributes the no CD rts.dll file in the support section and has since around 2003.

jasonbirder
11-23-2007, 12:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Well, from a purely technical perspective, your are totally wrong.

The n0-ceedee solution appears to be a modified variant of the un-encrypted il2fb.exe file, which actually holds no information about FM, sounds etc. I also think that the il2fb.exe file is the product of UBI, because Oleg once commented (wrt Boonty) that this area is the publisher's responsibility, not his.

Your hack/mod manipulates the .SFS files, which are strongly encripted to prevent unathorized manipulation of FM, sounds etc. This area is certainly the product of Oleg, which he personally tried to protect as much as he could.

Did you get the significant differences from the above comparison? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No difference at all..the EULA makes absolutely no distinction between modification of an exe file and modification of an sfs file...in fact from the publishers point of view modification of the exe file to allow no CD use is far more commercially significant.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The noCD is irrelevant to this discussion.

The noCD allows you to play without the game disk in the drive.

The hack tools allow you to fly with hacked FMs/DMs, thus destroying the online experience.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is exactly what i refered to earlier...onliners want a closed code sim and are opposed to the sound mod for their own reasons...but there is absolutely no legal or commercial difference between altering the sfs files and the exe files - neither are allowed. In fact a rigid legalistic interpretation of the EULA would prevent alterations to the Speech Packs, Splash Screens, default skins etc etc...
Now the publisher Ubi don't care about modificaton - witness the discussion in other game forums...their is absolutely no legal or moral difference between "good" breaches of the EULA (which has been going on since the game was first released) and so called "bad" breaches of the EULA (the sound mod).
The only difference is that a tiny (c5% was Olegs own estimate) but extremely vocal minority of Online players don't want the spread of community generated mods because it clashes with their agenda for the game...
Thats it...period.

Targ
11-23-2007, 12:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
Thanks Targ. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No problem,
I would love to squash this no cd phobia once and for all.
If UBI is ok with it and Oleg and Co are ok with it than so am I.

DrHerb
11-23-2007, 12:49 PM
omg i totally forgot about the rts.dll fix lol

flyingloon
11-23-2007, 01:07 PM
ditto, if that's the case ignore my previous statements. just always seemed to get an insta-ban if it was linked to.

FA_IKKYO
11-23-2007, 01:14 PM
Someone told me that Oleg was approached that the code was hacked and asked what he will do to fix it and he ignore it and the hacker then put it public. Is this true?

Did Oleg know the hack was out there before it was public and has chosen not to do a thing about it?

If any of this is true then he at that time had the opportunity to block the hack but did nothing...

Think about that.

Retrofish
11-23-2007, 01:26 PM
Just to nitpick... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

My Euro/Uk version of the 46 DVD does not use a rts.dll file. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

BSS_Sniper
11-23-2007, 01:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DrHerb:
One question, has anyone here ACTUALLY SEEN any iffy flying going on? I havent. The only evidence ive seen is a couple of videos from utube.

So many people are crying foul (I understand the morality behind breaking the .sfs code and that it is a bad thing to have done)

So my point is, before this becomes a flaming torch witch hunt and everybody accuses everybody of cheating by modifying the fm/dm's of the aircraft in this game I must ask one question.

Got Track? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

EXACTLY! All I ever hear in this place is 'WE NEED PROOF" yet not one single person in here can provide track outside of youtube. Does cheating exist? Yeah. Is it widespread and out of control. No. Get a grip people.

And for the record....nvm cd crack is on ubi lol but thats a good thing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

flyingloon
11-23-2007, 01:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FA_IKKYO:
Someone told me that Oleg was approached that the code was hacked and asked what he will do to fix it and he ignore it and the hacker then put it public. Is this true?

Did Oleg know the hack was out there before it was public and has chosen not to do a thing about it?

If any of this is true then he at that time had the opportunity to block the hack but did nothing...

Think about that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hearsay so far unproven i think...

rnzoli
11-23-2007, 03:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jasonbirder:
...their is absolutely no legal or moral difference between "good" breaches of the EULA (which has been going on since the game was first released) and so called "bad" breaches of the EULA (the sound mod). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There is a big difference. One destroys the copyright protection around the product, without intruding into the product. The other intrudes the product itself.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The only difference is that a tiny (c5% was Olegs own estimate) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
... in 2001? in 2002? before broadband existed? carry on with your agenda please.. very interesting http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">but extremely vocal minority of Online players don't want the spread of community generated mods because it clashes with their agenda for the game...
Thats it...period. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh, I feel so sorry for the totally silent and meek huge majority of offliners, who never ever open their mouth to say any bad thing about others, oh, how victimized those pure people are... hey, wait a minute, arent' you vocal right now? What happened? Haven't you just said this about onliners? Oh, and you seem to be pushing your agenda! Horrors! How dare you! And you even bring in piracy issues as a cover up for your own legal shortcomings... now THAT'S what we can call an interesting agenda.

rnzoli
11-23-2007, 03:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_Sniper:
Does cheating exist? Yeah. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
How do you know? Got track? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And for the record....nvm cd crack is on ubi lol but thats a good thing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>How about the DVD? IIRC it doesn't work for '46.

JG52Uther
11-23-2007, 03:34 PM
Talk about no cd / no dvd hacks are forbidden here.

msalama
11-23-2007, 03:39 PM
Guys, chill.

The bugger's been hacked, but as Bearcat said that's the situation we have to live with. Thus the next thing for us to do IMO is to draw up a code of conduct - and vehemently police it, too. And that means YOU, YOU, YOU and ME, be us modders or traditionalists.

Any takers?

rnzoli
11-23-2007, 04:09 PM
Well, the whole point of opening this poll was that 4.09 is NOT hacked yet. It's not even out yet. So 4.09 will be a new platform and a clean start. Maybe. For how long? At least for the "standard" 2 weeks hopefully http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Code of conduct... nice, but I guess the modders already deserve a certificate from Oleg regarding their code of conduct. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JG52Uther
11-23-2007, 04:18 PM
It would be nice if Oleg would lock down 4.09 tighter that a very tight thing,then the modders could stick with 4.08,and the non-modders could stick with 4.09.
Yes I know I am dreaming. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

jasonbirder
11-23-2007, 04:18 PM
So can you explain exactly how the No CD crack isn't a breach of the EULA while the sound mod is?


Yes This says more than I could (http://ubisoft.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/ubisoft.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1109&p_created=1046901133&p_sid=ftguItRi&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX 3Jvd19jbnQ9MiwyJnBfcHJvZHM9MCZwX2NhdHM9JnBfcHY9JnB fY3Y9JnBfc2VhcmNoX3R5cGU9YW5zd2Vycy5zZWFyY2hfbmwmc F9wYWdlPTEmcF9zZWFyY2hfdGV4dD1ydHMuZGxs&p_li=&p_topview=1).

Bearcat99
11-23-2007, 05:00 PM
Ooops sorry about that Jason.. I mean t to hit quote and I hit edit by mistake... I erased a lot of your post. Sorry about that. But there is your answer. The no cd is actually found on UBI....

hotspace
11-23-2007, 06:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by danger13:
S! guys
i am back after a long time away from these forums to say this.

1c have done an exellent job with il2, the modders have done an exellent job with the sound mod( not hack). dont see why they dont get together for the infamous 4.09, and make it the best patch ever. btw is it still the usual 2 weeks before launch lol

personally, and i DON'T speak for the rest of the world, i would think if they dont, then 4.09 would not be touched.
here's hoping.

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree with that one.. if they hacked the sim they will hack the 4.09... however... below is a quote from a post made to me at the AAA forum, which I signed up for under my name... As of now I still have not used any of the mods and as of this time have no intention of doing so for all the reasons I stated in previous posts on these boards... After 4.09 and Oleg's final contribution to the sim? Who knows.... I don't... but I do know that this issue is not going to go away.. it wont change.. so we either learn to live with it to some extent... or move on. A great griot once said... "Change is inevitable, therefore it is better to attempt to direct that change rather than simply go through it..." I have placed asterisks in the names of some of the others who I quoted because I don't have their permission to attach their names to their quotes, and they aren't the issue anyway.....

<sub>
Bearcat can I ask you a favour m8?

I know alot of folks from UBI come here without registering to look/download or whatever they do, but if you posted at UBI that you've come over here and posted the above or something in the same vein, maybe the mis-trust between both the folks at UBI and here would be clearer, but keep the thread open as I and many other people here who have registered here under the same name here as at UBI would go over there and put this Sites opinon without having a flame-war.

It would at least be the start of something positive for both sides m8 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The two quotes from above are from threads at UBI....

This has to stop.. because it is what it is... and there is no turning back.... as I said.. I have not used any of the mods as of today.. I still don't know if I will or not.. but to me, to keep this rift alive is just silly and a waste of time and energy. The way I see it the issue should no longer be do you use the hacks/mods/macks whatever... or not... but A)Is the integrity of online flying still important to you? and B)What are you willing to do to ante up and make sure that the atmosphere that we fly in is more conducive to flying honorably. I am not naive enough to think that all those who use this thing are going to hop into some Franken plane... say 109K-14 on a 109E skin etc... but I am also not so naive as to think that the contrary is impossible. It is what it is and this aspect of modding is the thing that has me and so many others worried.... but the cat is out... the box is now open... What happens from here on out is largely up to us.... so what kind of sim world will we make? As I said in another post... just because the sim has been hacked doesn't automatically mean that the sim has to go to h@ll in a steamer trunk in no time... because the bottom line is whether it does or it doesn't.. the sim is till hacked... so we all need to move on and redefine some things. </sub>

The quotes that the original poster were referring to are posts that I made here @ UBI in a few other threads... here are those posts, BTW I went over there and got flamed big time, but thats cool I have a prtty thick skin... What is most important to me and what should now be moved to the forefront of everyone's thinking is... keeping the integrity of the use of the sim online:

<sub>This is all I am saying....


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!!

LOOK... the deed is friggin DONE y'hear!! DONE!!!! All the finger pointing, name calling, accusations, legal rhetoric and posturing will not change a dadgummed thing.. not one bit.. Not only that.. at this point I doubt that 4.09 will change very much for long if at all... and even if it did with all that is in 4.08 do you really think that those who have hacked the sim will just .... toss all that to go fly 4.09? H@ll no!! There is enough in 4.08.. to keep everyone busy... the switcher batch file is old news so folks... GET OVER IT!!!! ALL OF YOU!!! ON BOTH SIDES!!!!

Will it ruin the sim? Well at this point that's up to us isn't it? Those guys that say they are on the up and up should also work on something to keep the integrity of the sim within the context of the Frankenstein they created. We all may see this monster sitting around the dinner table with his wife singing opera ala Mel Brooks one day... Who knows...? It is still largely up to us and to those who have hacked the sim to set the tone for the future.. because the milk is on the deck.... either get a mop or go find a cat... anything but keep this stuff going.

If you want to use the darned thing then use it... and STFU about it... if you don't want to use it then don't... and STFU about it... all this back and forth nonsense is just OLD.. it is really OLD. All of you ... It is time to STFU about the thing and fly or don't fly, use it or don't use it.... PERIOD.

THE END </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

and...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">.. it's just that this back and forth thing between the pros and cons is getting old... it is what it is... we need to move on from here and try to keep the goal at maintaining the integrity of the sim as best we can... whether or not that means not tolerating any out of order behavior online by establishing a mindset that is intolerant with cheating or whatever.. but to keep going back and forth about the pros and cons is just a waste of time and energy. If maintaining the integrity of the sim means going hack free to you then so be it.... if it means not using hacked FMs then so be it... but it is time to move on.

Whether or not this takes the usual turn of events where hacks are concerned is largely up to us... if we let it become a free for all then anything will go.. if we no longer have the integrity of the sim we had then we need to maintain the integrity of the use of the sim.. by keeping our focus on the flying ... and not the crying. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



at least you have the courage to come under your own well known name

i suspect several detractors from the ubi forums have sneeked in with a new name

there are bad bananas in every bunch....I know .....we have several trees outside my backdoor here in the Thai jungle....but we don't blame the tree.......or throw away the good ones

Happy Thanksgiving

I have nothing to hide... and nothing to prove... I can only hold an opinion for so long based on limited info... and as the info changes I need to update that info in my head because things like this do not exist in a vacuum. My initial impression of this thing was what I have seen in other sims, which was for the most part not good for competitive online flying. Like I said.... modding is not bad... but the other stuff that comes with it is.... the bad stuff.. and me like everyone else that is concerned about the whole issue is concerned primarily about that. The only way I can find out more without DLdng it, which I am still at this point not ready to do is to find out.. go to the source... Do I think modding=cheating? Of course not... that is silly... Do I think that modding can open the way to cheating? Absolutely.. it is a proven fact... so all I can do is investigate and see just what is going on... and I don't have to DL the mods to see that.. I can get a good idea of the intentions of the modders and some of it's users.. the overall tone just by listening.. and thats what I am doing. The fact that the mod exists means that there will be some folks who will use it to cheat if possible.. there will always be people who will do that if they can... So far I have seen, aside from the rudeness of some, a desire to do exactly what I was saying in the two quotes from posts I made @ UBI... only time will tell where it goes.. but we as the IL2 community, pro & con mod.. will play a large roll in determining how all this falls out. This could be the best thing that ever happened to the sim when it is all said and done... or it could go the way of so many other sims that became moddable.... it is all up to us and the standards for implementation that we set... and thats all I am trying to get a feel for... that and what they are, what they do etc.... I may even offer some suggestions.... but for now I am just looking.</sub>

So to answer zoli's original post... I think they will wind up hacking 4.09 also... Whether or not that will be a sign of their greed or ignorance.. I can't judge that..

I will continue to fly the sim regardless... and I will fly online... and I will kick anyone who I think is flying modded AC from 99th servers... or istruct our hosts to do so.. I dont klnow where all this is going.. was I disappointed when it happened? You bet... but it is here now... and all the griping and name calling and such will not change a thing... all that will do is fulfill the prediction of this fracturing the community. Right now IMO it has cracked the community... (No pun intended..) whether or not that crack turns into an out right break and if that happens how wide that rift would get I cant say... But I will say if you have any fondness for the sim or the community than some of you have been part of since the IL2 Demo came out... you will do what you can to insure that this sim and this community remains as unique in it's twilight years as it was in it's infancy, adolecence, adulthood and middle age... and that can only be achieved by attemting as best as possible to adhere to the spirit of the sim's legacy if adhereing to the letter of it is no longer possible.

Does that make sense? I ramble sometimes... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Ok, time to stand up time.

If anyone has been over to 'You know where' you we know that the quote that Bearcat has quoted above starting with:

Bearcat, can I ask you a favour m8?

Is from me.

Now my point of view.

1st.

I'm disugusted on how Bearcat was and still seems to be treated over and I've said so in the said Forums over there - some people are touchy over there from someone from here which I'm sure you know who this is here.

Anyway, to the point folks.

I was just like you, in fact if you look at my last post here I was asking about Check Runtime=2 as I knew some of my squad had it. But i was asked to try it inwhich I did......and as you can see from the Forum over there, I use it.

I haven't voted in the Poll here because I see it more from the folks point here then an equal point of view.

To ask some of the questions here:

Do I see this as a hack?

Yes, this is a hack.

Do I see this as wrong?

Yes and no.

If you've gone over there and I'm sure many have, you will see many inprovements - the thing that hit me 1st was upon hearing 'Real' Engine Sound.

Now to see this from you're point of you folks.

The B5N2 and the Tempest have been turned into or will the following:

Fairy Battle (You can have now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif)

or the Hawker Typhoon.

Now at 1st I was into this as I thought these were 'new' add-on's, not replacing the old - I'm not into these and never will.

Fake Cockpits:

Yes, some aircraft have strange looking pits which look a bit daft - some I have, some I did, but no more.

To the point:

Do I cheat Online?

No. Before I knew about this I hosted games on HL with A.I Planes included and as far I as I can see the FM is the same - Try looping a B-17 or playing with other 'Modded' Planes in a DF Game Online and you will see what I mean if you have both versions on you're HD.

Is there a Cheat?

Yes. I know who uses it and where you can get it from, but I and my Squad will never use it and if I found out that someone did - I'll ban them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

I've also found that the 'known' Site does also promote the fact that FM, DM, GM or any other 'M' will never be changed.

Is this wrong?

Yes & no.

Yes:

Because I can see it from all the posts from the many posters in many threads I've seen here at UBI.

No:

In the original you get to fly such planes as the P-36 and Me-210. Now this isn't and never will be me promoting the site (it's up to you if you try it), but it was the fact that you could hear a 'Merlin' on a Spit, Hurri, P-51: 'DB's' on the 109's,110's, 210's etc that got me and alway's will as I alway's thought the sound you get in the Un-Modded Version was awful.

Oleg?

I'm one of the orginals who brought the game back in 2001 and some of you might know me from IL-2: Skins and such and I see both sides of the fence.

I'm I disrepecting him as others are?

Again, and I will be honest here: Yes & No.

Yes:

Because its illigal.

No:

Because it brought me back from the edge as I was getting to the point I was getting bored hosting Online, let alone Offline playing.

Oleg is the man for me as it seems to be to folks here and on the 'Dark Side'. This has made the game what it should of been - and I'm only talking about the Sound Mods here folks - Merlin etc......

Anyway, I know I will get flamed for this, but what you must see and this is most important here folks:

They're's two side to every story.

If it wasn't for Oleg, I wouldn't:

1. Known such a great community as the Il-2 Series has become and made some great friends here which I wouldn't in 'Real Life'.

2. Brought the best Combat Flight Sim there ever was up to this date http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I know this is going on a bit and I'm sure ya bored lol......but I gave and alway's will gave Bearcat or even Oleg if he goes over there my upmost respect http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

All I would ask, if you would give 'us' and I will included myself in that, the respect that I give to Bearcat over there.

Yes this is wrong as I've stated before, but you can't place it under the carpet hoping it will go away either as this has alway's happened http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Skycat_2
11-23-2007, 06:52 PM
NoSeedy = bad? Maybe...

rts.dll = bad? Only if sought as a NoCD, apparently. If downloaded from UbiSoft Customer Solutions as a 'fix' for CD drive compatibility, the NoSeedy hack becomes legitimate.

However, notice that UbiSoft Customer Solutions makes no mention of why the rts.dll works as a fix. That must have been a quandry for the Customer Solutions experts: The best way to fix problems caused by the anti-piracy technology is to bypass the anti-piracy technology...but the 'answer' was to give away the very file that created the need for the anti-piracy measures. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

So then the European version of the 1946 DVD required the DVD in the drive as an anti-piracy measure. However, the technology changed and the rts.dll wasn't used. An unofficial workaround was created. I'd be afraid to even mention that, except...

The US version of the 1946 DVD does not require the DVD in the drive. Install once and throw your DVD in a drawer; the il2fb.exe that ships with the game is a NoDeeVeeDee by default! Why? Because UbiSoft probably already had decided to offer the whole 1946 game as a commercial download by that point. The download version can't come with a DVD (obviously) so the the EuroDVDil2fb.exe needed to be removed.

Bottom line: Either UbiSoft trusts the US market and all e-commerce purchasers more than it trusts European DVD owners, -or- the NoDeeVeeDee hack thing has become a non-issue to UbiSoft.

Now I'll comment on the patently ridiculous argument that repainted skins and medals and custom speech packs violate the EULA. The inclusion of voids in each aircraft skin folder implies consent from the developer to alter, repaint and distribute new aircraft textures. The subsequent official release of voids for aircraft that were included in upgrade patches also implies consent by the developer to alter, repaint and distribute new aircraft textures. The release of a layered pilot template with guides by the developer implies consent from the develper to alter, repaint and distribute new pilot skins. The official 1.2ov patch for IL-2 Sturmovik that 'opened' the speech files implies consent from the developer to alter, record and distribute new speech packs. The guides included in every version afterwards designed to aid the community in creating new voice packs implies consent by the developer to alter, record and distribute new speech packs.

See a pattern here?

Why is the SFS hack different?

The developers did not give consent--either explicit or implied--to alter any content contained within the SFS files. In fact, these files were encrypted so as not to be tampered with. In fact, the developers have publically stated their displeasure for the 'hacking' into the SFS files.

The differences aren't subtle at all.

LEXX_Luthor
11-23-2007, 06:57 PM
Bear I was thinking about that too when you locked our thread. A 3rd Party company can still do things that the mackers cannot, such as make full size maps, add new aircraft, add new aircraft features (radar for example) and program AI to use those features.

rnzoli (page 6) <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In my experience, I haven't seen apparent cheating on the CRT=2 server I fly on - to date.

The reason for my "SKY IS FALLING" feeling is based on Oleg's risk assessment purely. If he thinks this is bad for online play, I have no reason to doubt the developer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oleg's assesment leaves out private servers or LAN, but then as far as I know (not much) Oleg has always favoured open public dogfight server gameplay. Oleg's assesment of online play also includes the desired goal of Pay to Play for his next sim, which I think may be the best way to provide anti-piracy and anti-cheat protection.

That last item is the real Sky Falling Event for rnzoli (and ElAurens http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) and something they do not want to talk about here!


Integrity Of Online Play(tm) is compromised with...

Kill Stealing
Team Killing
Renegade wingpersons abandoning teamwork
Snotty gamer chat attacks

Online play integrity can only come from online players, and no mod or hack protection can prevent this, which is why the working, functional online play communities fled the poor gamer behavior in the anonymous public servers years ago. Lets hope you are right that 4.09 can be used with full confidence in the anonymous public servers without the additional integrity worry of FM or DM cheats, and other players can use the 4.08 if desired or agreed to.

ElAurens
11-23-2007, 08:27 PM
Lexx you are as clueless now as you have ever been. You don't play online, in fact you don't even play this sim at all anymore.

Your opinions are totally baseless.

You are a modder, and your personal agenda is to get into this, and every other sim. Well, frankly I don't want you, or any other "modder" in this sandbox.

Now run along back to TK's playground like a good little fellow would you? Because frankly I'm sick of your nonsensical drivel. You have not made one "poast" that has made any sense in four years. You pull conclusions out of thin air with nothing but conjecture to back them up with.

I sure hope you are better at modding than you are at defending your positions, cause franky you suck at debate.

Krt_Bong
11-23-2007, 10:28 PM
A lot of people here are dead set against any mods to their beloved game. They threaten and huff and puff and use all kinds of reasoning to uphold their rightousness in the argument that number one it's illegal, hmm, let me take you back a bit. When Pacific Fighters came out it had copy protection. This copy protection looked into the registries and checked for CD copying software if it found it it wouldn't run. Many people had this problem IIRC. in my case I had a brand new DVD/CDRW drive and as soon as I installed the drive would no longer burn anything after a re-format it worked, after re-installing Pacific Fighters it didn't. My buddy's computer it wouldnt run at all. Being the guy he was he fired off an angry letter to UBI that they had no right looking in his PC and deciding if it was worthy of allowing a program that he paid good money for and they responded by telling him to copy the exe off the disc and all would be fine, still it wouldn't work. Then they sent him a new Exe that just happened to be a lot smaller than the original and turned out to be a no cd crack (provided by UBI)anyone remember these things? What exactly is legal about that. I know that this game is something important to everyone of you but it's not exactly like having your best friend dating your sister and telling him to keep his hands off her is it. What people do with a program once they install it is really their business and even if they totally tear it down and rebuild it no-one can really do anything about it unless they repackage it and sell it as their own, because then it's intellectual property and you can sue over that. Years ago the Gov't tried to pass a law that wouldn't allow car owners to work on their own cars, under this bill shadetree mechanics and hotrod builders would be in violation of the law if they took a screwdriver and changed the settings on their carbureators, think of all the craftsmen tool sets that would never be sold, all the auto parts stores that would be put out of business. Maybe this is a stretch of an analogy but you guys are really beating the proverbial dead horse here. This forum has become a joke and you guys have become clowns in a circus. Get over it I love the sim but it's pretend NOT real. When I shoot down someone in a dogfight nobody gets hurt, some poor schmuck in New Jersey doesn't fall out of his chair bleeding from a head wound - Get Over It.
So far there is nothing to suggest that anyone has lost a fight to a cheater, that doesn't mean it's not possible but would a cheater give the same hack he uses to the entire community? That would kinda spoil it for him don't ya think? If everyone using it is cheating then what? Egads! It's a level playing field again. Now they got to come out with an invisible airplane mod, oh wait they call that wonder woman view don't they. The only thing cheating in this game is the AI. Do we complain about that too? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Tab_Flettner
11-23-2007, 11:01 PM
"Oleg's assesment of online play also includes the desired goal of Pay to Play for his next sim, which I think may be the best way to provide anti-piracy and anti-cheat protection."

Whoa, wait a second! Where was I? Is this for real? SOW is to be pay to play? What is that little gem based on?

LEXX_Luthor
11-23-2007, 11:30 PM
Oleg poasting at sukhoi.ru

read ~~&gt; "desired"

What Oleg wants to do, not what he will do.

ElAurens
11-23-2007, 11:31 PM
Some time ago, and he won't do it.

Be sure.

LEBillfish
11-23-2007, 11:32 PM
Hmmm....I may be beginning to be convinced...So lets recap reviewing the logic presented by those not part of/against the community now.

Something I have devoted thousands of hours of my life into considering the play, research as to the era and combat, interacting with others and so on.....Doesn't matter in any way shape or form.

Because the thief has stolen the chickens.....We should now hand over the rooster to them as well, it worthless to us so just give into it.

No one in the past has ever cheated in IL2 BECAUSE, no hacked events have been presented for these few to review and TELL us what we should think........Even though numerous types of hacks have been long known and documented before the sim was hacked fully open.........So naturally now that it's splayed out like some corpse on a table to view fully.....No one will use that to cheat with.

Some posting for the hacks claim to have not even flown the sim for some time, some before PF.....Naturally so interested in it their opinions should weigh heavily since they are clearly of an above average intelligence even though they really care so little they do not even ustilize it.....In kind working to the opposite end of the spectrum, after claiming they "only fly offline and therefor don't see the problem....Find most of these folks online as they always have been....Though naturally stating they just fly offline wasn't a lie, we just misunderstood........Lastly as to this point the concept of the sim now being vulnerable exposed as it is to those who would cheat, even helped by the "modders" to find out how via extraction programs and pointers on how to look about...Is totally lost on these folks as naturally because they claim they won't cheat...Clearly no one else will....It's not naive thinking, nor pure goodness and faith in mankind...Yet simply they know, and knowing even though they know how exposed the sim is having "tried to do it themselves though would never do it past testing".....Know that online play is safer because of their efforts.

Finally, even though many feel this group has done and is foaming at the mouth to do 100x more damage to the credibility of the sim as to online play.......Most on the opposite side simply don't understand as we have no interest in seeing the sim improve, and obviously just don't understand the back and forth doubletalk of most as to why's and such.....and naturally when it gets down to it cornered and having no excuse....misdirection of the issue then petty childish slurs their only recourse BECAUSE....That's all we of inferior unmodded minds could understand...Besides, what do they care....We're not them, and they are all that is important nothing else mattering.



Who do you think you're fooling......You're right, it won't go away......Yet a number of you have traded for a few things you want all credibility and respect....At this point anything you have to say does fall on deaf ears....As you have excluded yourselves from those who want to see the sim protected, excluded yourselves from the community to make your own off others efforts.

Done with these threads........Done with you.

LEXX_Luthor
11-23-2007, 11:44 PM
More recently...but I'm not sure what this means...


Oleg, 18 October 2007:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"><span class="ev_code_yellow">At the moment I can't say will we support dedicaded server ourselves or it will again distibuted fro free. And we will have new modes for multiplay</span>

Yellow Wallpaper forum ~ http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/viewtopic.php?t=191&postda...torder=asc&start=120 (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/viewtopic.php?t=191&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=120)
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ElAurens
11-23-2007, 11:51 PM
Well it probably means that online will be available from a 1C or UBI lobby, only.

I speculate that this will allow Oleg to implement a file checking program like punkbuster to make sure the hackers stay in their own back yard, much as the FPS games do.

Of course this spells the end of using Hyperlobby for SOW, but so what if it keeps the hackers fenced in.

ElAurens
11-23-2007, 11:55 PM
Oh, BTW, one of our members saw someone flying an Me 210 in Spits vs. 109s Friday.

So much for the "honourable modders" theory, and checkruntime = 2.

I'm with you Billfish.

These folks are not worth the effort.

LEBillfish
11-23-2007, 11:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
Of course this spells the end of using Hyperlobby for SOW, but so what if it keeps the hackers fenced in. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Being one of them that said never............funny how "pay to play" suddenly has appeal as the lesser evil.

ElAurens
11-24-2007, 12:06 AM
I said nothing of pay to play.

I suspect it will be like the proprietary game lobby provided by any FPS game.

If it happens at all.

rnzoli
11-24-2007, 01:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Oleg's assesment of online play also includes the desired goal of Pay to Play for his next sim, which I think may be the best way to provide anti-piracy and anti-cheat protection.

That last item is the real Sky Falling Event for rnzoli (and ElAurens http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) and something they do not want to talk about here! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not afraid to talk about this at all.
One problem is that the current product (IL-2) is bundled. When an offliner buys the game, he must buy the online part. When an onliner buys the game, he buys the single-player missions.

So if you want me, for example, to pay extra fees for playing online, I don't want to pay at all for the parts offliners use - e.g., single-player carreers, modding abilities etc.

This setup would be fair only if you, offliners, pay MORE for the base product than an onliner does. In case of PTP, I expect the product to be free to download, as I am paying for the service, not the product.

So in short: introducting PTP shall go together with a higher price (3x?) for the offline-only product. And the same thing with every patch. How is that from an offliner's point of view?

*edit* From a community point of view, this sucks, because the currently traversable borders between the online/offline fun will be totally blocked. Right now, you can enjoy 10%-90% of both worlds. With PTP, you will have to buy BOTH the product and the service, effectively paying double than others. This alone will split this small community into too small parts, possibly under the criticall mass, neither big and motivated enough to pay for the development of different parts.

-HH-Quazi
11-24-2007, 02:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jasonbirder:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Well, from a purely technical perspective, your are totally wrong.

The n0-ceedee solution appears to be a modified variant of the un-encrypted il2fb.exe file, which actually holds no information about FM, sounds etc. I also think that the il2fb.exe file is the product of UBI, because Oleg once commented (wrt Boonty) that this area is the publisher's responsibility, not his.

Your hack/mod manipulates the .SFS files, which are strongly encripted to prevent unathorized manipulation of FM, sounds etc. This area is certainly the product of Oleg, which he personally tried to protect as much as he could.

Did you get the significant differences from the above comparison? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No difference at all..the EULA makes absolutely no distinction between modification of an exe file and modification of an sfs file...in fact from the publishers point of view modification of the exe file to allow no CD use is far more commercially significant.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The noCD is irrelevant to this discussion.

The noCD allows you to play without the game disk in the drive.

The hack tools allow you to fly with hacked FMs/DMs, thus destroying the online experience.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is exactly what i refered to earlier...onliners want a closed code sim and are opposed to the sound mod for their own reasons...but there is absolutely no legal or commercial difference between altering the sfs files and the exe files - neither are allowed. In fact a rigid legalistic interpretation of the EULA would prevent alterations to the Speech Packs, Splash Screens, default skins etc etc...
Now the publisher Ubi don't care about modificaton - witness the discussion in other game forums...their is absolutely no legal or moral difference between "good" breaches of the EULA (which has been going on since the game was first released) and so called "bad" breaches of the EULA (the sound mod).
The only difference is that a tiny (c5% was Olegs own estimate) but extremely vocal minority of Online players don't want the spread of community generated mods because it clashes with their agenda for the game...
Thats it...period. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Look, Ubi Soft is the EULA. They are providing the no-cd exe approving the use of it. Since they are providing a link to the no-cd, and in essence they are the EULA your argument is baseless. They are not providing a link to the hack. Even though the hack is illegal against the EULA, the hack is actually raping Oleg, not Ubi Soft. That's it...period.

So stop trying to justify the hack by mentioing the no-cd exe. It was developed\created by Ubi Soft, and released by Ubi Soft, not the hacker next door.

JG52Uther
11-24-2007, 02:15 AM
So just to clear this up for me please:
After all these years of being threatened with instant banning on the forum for even whispering about the no cd hack,its suddenly perfectly ok to talk about it,provide links for new guys etc?
I assuume this also includes the no dvd hack readily available for '46? Or is that one not allowed to be talked about yet?
Is this a major policy change from the mods?
I am not trying to be 'smart' here,as I would genuinely like to know.Not that many months ago,I was threatened with a ban by Steve V for telling someone to pm me for the link to the no cd (the ubi one by the way)
I would just like this clarified by the mods.

na85
11-24-2007, 02:26 AM
ubi provides a nocd crack?

SeaFireLIV
11-24-2007, 03:01 AM
I`m kinda amazed to hear about this no-cd crack here being mentioned too. Also if Oleg goes Pay to Play, well that`s the end of online play for me forever. I pay for the net, I pay for the game and that`s where it stops.

Once again, offline appeals.

Bearcat99
11-24-2007, 05:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:

Being one of them that said never............funny how "pay to play" suddenly has appeal as the lesser evil. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was thinking the same thing...

Bearcat99
11-24-2007, 05:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG52Uther:
So just to clear this up for me please:
After all these years of being threatened with instant banning on the forum for even whispering about the no cd hack,its suddenly perfectly ok to talk about it,provide links for new guys etc?
I assuume this also includes the no dvd hack readily available for '46? Or is that one not allowed to be talked about yet?
Is this a major policy change from the mods?
I am not trying to be 'smart' here,as I would genuinely like to know.Not that many months ago,I was threatened with a ban by Steve V for telling someone to pm me for the link to the no cd (the ubi one by the way)
I would just like this clarified by the mods. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well in light of this whole thing and a huge oversight on the entire moderating staff here... I have to apologize myself for anyone I may have banned for posting the no-cd post PF.. I don't think I did.. only warned.. but I could have done it and most likely have forgotten... at least one.. and for the sake of that one I do apologize because until Targ posted the rts file here I had completely forgotten that it was posted on UBI.. as for the no DVD file... well that file is NOT posted on UBI so IMO it is still an unofficial piece of kit.. even if it does the same thing as far as allowing no disk play. I won't ban anyone for it though from here on out just remove a link to it. There are other places and other means where it can be had than posting direct links here. As for the dozens of others who have been banned for posting links to it in the past between PF and now.. I can't speak for the other mods... but it makes me feel bad for the inconvenience and unfair bannings. Uther is right.

In our defense however I have to say that the policy was not clear anyway because for a long time there was NO no-cd period allowed on these boards... I forgot which version made them come up with the no-cd as a fix I think it was in 3.0... but I do know that before that there was no link to it and it was not allowed on these boards. Looking back with hindsight at the time of the change the policy should have been amended.. and it wasn't... sort of like some of those old laws still on the books about killing a hog on Sunday or something like that.... but yes Uther you are right IMO, but only for the rts file posted by UBI. This is just my take on the situation.. I have not discussed it with the other mods but it seems pretty clear to me. The main reason if you recall for the whole slapdown was the amount of theft in the first place.

EDCF_Rama
11-24-2007, 07:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
Oh, BTW, one of our members saw someone flying an Me 210 in Spits vs. 109s Friday.

So much for the "honourable modders" theory, and checkruntime = 2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think "Spits vs. 109s" server runs with CRT=2.
My teamates can enter it with the soundhack (The one which is NOT compatable with CRT=2), and they can't enter when I host (I allways do with CRT=2) with the same soundhack.

ElAurens
11-24-2007, 07:53 AM
Spits and Zekes are both checkruntime = 2 now.

One of our guys finally had to update from Win2K to XP last week because of it.

Go to their forum it is plainly said that they are on "2".

EDCF_Rama
11-24-2007, 09:03 AM
A few weeks ago, I experimented what I told (squadmate rejected from my hosting at CRT=2, and not in Spit vs. 109 server)
... I don't know for today, but I know it was like I said. I never trust what I read in forums... I only trust what I can experiment myself.

Enthor1
11-24-2007, 09:41 AM
ElAurens, I just tried several times to join both Spits and Zekes servers with my modded version of FB and was not able to do so.

It would seem that checkruntime=2 is still able to block modded installs and that is extremely good news for both sides of the discussion, would you not agree?

EDCF_Rama
11-24-2007, 10:45 AM
No, some "mods" are CRT=2 compatable. (I know many peoples using them)

I just don't know to which extent you can modify things while staying CRT=2 compatable.

SeaFireLIV
11-24-2007, 10:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EDCF_Rama:
No, some "mods" are CRT=2 compatable. (I know many peoples using them)

I just don't know to which extent you can modify things while staying CRT=2 compatable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Had a feeling someone was going to say that. but I can believe it. Once the code is broken, nothing is guaranteed.

Krt_Bong
11-24-2007, 02:01 PM
I would like the Mods and anyone else interested to see this post as to the policy in effect at Warbirds of Prey: http://www.warbirdsofprey.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1762\ (http://www.warbirdsofprey.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1762%5C)
the body of text reprinted here:
The owner of the WoP server has decided to implement checkruntime=2 on the unanimous advice of the admin staff

This will ensure as far as possible that the WoP servers are a level playing field for all our players. It will also reduce the workload of the admins who would otherwise have to review tracks and log data for suspected hackers

The decision was taken after the admins agreed that certain evidence (a track) left us with no choice. More information may or may not be added to this announcement at a later date, at the sole discretion of the owner.

The WoP server owner and admins will not tolerate any discussion in chat, TS, or forum postings on the subject of mods or hacks. Period. Now go and PLAY.

I would like to suggest that this might be a way to end the constant bickering hereon in these forums. My previous posts may seem to indicate to some of you that I support hacking. I do not. Yes I have the Mod and like others before I like it, but I like Jack Daniels too that doesn't mean I support alcoholism. Maybe it's wrong to use I don't know, but one day this sim will be as unsupported as many others are now and the Mod will still be out there and people will still be using it good or bad. Only time will tell. But watching these posts is like a train wreck and it seems futile to me to argue the point and I'm just as guilty of adding to it as many of you are. So I think the only way to deal with it is to delete any discussion of it before it gets out of hand, just nip it in the bud. I personally feel the Moderators of this forum have an ugly job and I would'nt want it but that is the best suggestion for peace I can think of.

ElAurens
11-24-2007, 02:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Enthor1:
that is extremely good news for both sides of the discussion, would you not agree? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh I agree, as long as it works.

I don't think it works all that well, however.

h009291
11-25-2007, 06:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
A penguin takes his car to a mechanic.

The mechanic pops the hood and after a minute says, "This may take a while. go have a beer or something and come back in an hour."

The penguin goes away but thinks to himself, "I'm a penguin - I don't drink beer. Never mind. I'll go get an icecream instead."

So the penguin buys himself an icecream. But not having proper hands he can't hold it very well and drops most of the icecream down his front. He tries to wipe it off but this only makes things worse.

After an hour he goes back to the mechanic who is still messing around under the bonnet. He looks up as the penguin approaches and shakes his head. "Looks like you've blown a seal." He says.

"No," says the penguin. "I've just had an icecream."

Stay cool rnzoli http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Must have lost something in the translation http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

LEXX_Luthor
11-25-2007, 08:17 PM
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/thumbs.gif

rnzoli:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">One problem is that the current product (IL-2) is bundled. When an offliner buys the game, he must buy the online part. When an onliner buys the game, he buys the single-player missions.

So if you want me, for example, to pay extra fees for playing online, I don't want to pay at all for the parts offliners use - e.g., single-player carreers, modding abilities etc.

This setup would be fair only if you, offliners, pay MORE for the base product than an onliner does. In case of PTP, I expect the product to be free to download, as I am paying for the service, not the product.

So in short: introducting PTP shall go together with a higher price (3x?) for the offline-only product. And the same thing with every patch. How is that from an offliner's point of view?

*edit* From a community point of view, this sucks, because the currently traversable borders between the online/offline fun will be totally blocked. Right now, you can enjoy 10%-90% of both worlds. With PTP, you will have to buy BOTH the product and the service, effectively paying double than others. This alone will split this small community into too small parts, possibly under the criticall mass, neither big and motivated enough to pay for the development of different parts. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't want you to pay a fee for Online play. Oleg does ... at least for a full featured Online server provided by publisher.

A far more expensive game for Offline players would hopefully come with some real advances in AI programming and a focus on the air warfare environment(*). It would be worth it. Such advanced AI would be useful in Online Wars as well, taking the seats of absent players.

If you want "free" Online gameplay -- as do I since it ensures freedom of private servers and LAN play, you have to let the Offline community totally split from anonymous public "team kill" server gameplay and get the features Offline players ask for. Free Online gameplay depends on Offline players paying for the Online gameplay. This is what I'd hope Oleg does for BoB And Beyond ... Offline focus to satisfy Oleg's business needs but still free Online gameplay to satisfy Oleg's personal hobby desires.


----

(*) Footnote:: Oleg is an underwater photography hobbiest. Be Sure his next SubSim will fully model the undersea warfare environment. That's why I wish Oleg, and all The Sims developers, was a weather photography hobbiest.

LEXX_Luthor
11-25-2007, 08:36 PM
hehe I "forgot" ... a far more expensive Offline game might come with a THICK detailed paper manual. Yes! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif