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FPSOLKOR
02-24-2008, 09:13 AM
A "must read" for those who "know everything" about SU and Stalins rule.
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pilots/antipina/antipina.htm

ytareh
02-24-2008, 09:38 AM
Excellent as always...

DmdSeeker
02-24-2008, 11:00 AM
Fascinating. Not a view point we're used to seeing.

HuninMunin
02-24-2008, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by FPSOLKOR:
A "must read" for those who "know everything" about SU and Stalins rule.
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pilots/antipina/antipina.htm

What would you say if I put a Swastika in my Avatar and wrote a similar thing about the Third Reich?

Seriously, I get your point but your way of presenting it lacks respect and smells like agenda; ultimatly harming your cause in my eyes.

FPSOLKOR
02-24-2008, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by HuninMunin:
What would you say if I put a Swastika in my Avatar and wrote a similar thing about the Third Reich?

I wouldn't care less... It's your right and will.

Originally posted by HuninMunin:Seriously, I get your point but your way of presenting it lacks respect and smells like agenda; ultimatly harming your cause in my eyes.
I'm fed up by people discussing things they know nothing about, except from CNN, BBC and the Discovery channel. Especially when they deny me my right to have my own opinion based on documents and eyewitness accounts. Fullstop.

HuninMunin
02-24-2008, 01:01 PM
As I said, I understand your point and I agree with it.
But again - presenting those precious facts under the light of bitter sarcasm does no good.

FPSOLKOR
02-24-2008, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by HuninMunin:
presenting those precious facts under the light of bitter sarcasm does no good.
You may be right, and later I may be ashamed of my self, but currently I'm way too p==sed off by ignorance and "I know everything syndrome" to think reasonably.

Von_Rat
02-24-2008, 01:51 PM
great read, thanks.

it good to have these 1st person accounts, especially for the war on the easten front. so that in the future everybody can get at least a tiny glimpse of what it was really like.

M_Gunz
02-24-2008, 06:30 PM
Years ago I read a book either authored by or translated by a British man;
The Siege of Leningrad.

After reading that, even before finishing it is easy to understand extreme things that happened.
I do not regard anything there as typical except for Russian Spirit against hardness.
900 days or more, starvation and winters of that place -- those people still held on!

This article contains some small views into that and she was a survivor.

Rammjaeger
02-25-2008, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by FPSOLKOR:
I'm fed up by people discussing things they know nothing about, except from CNN, BBC and the Discovery channel. Especially when they deny me my right to have my own opinion based on documents and eyewitness accounts. Fullstop.

Alright, so what 'myths' about Stalin and the USSR, supposedly spread by BBC and the like, did this interview supposedly debunk?

FPSOLKOR
02-25-2008, 04:49 AM
I'll mention four:
1. All people in prison in SU (befour GPW) were held there for political reasons
2. All traitors were executed on site
3. Judges were free to do anything without any punishment
4. Stalin personally ordered prices on someones head

Rammjaeger
02-25-2008, 05:26 AM
Originally posted by FPSOLKOR:
I'll mention four:
1. All people in prison in SU (befour GPW) were held there for political reasons
2. All traitors were executed on site
3. Judges were free to do anything without any punishment
4. Stalin personally ordered prices on someones head

With respect to 1., 2. and 3., I have never heard such claims on any TV channel, or anywhere for that matter, although I have seen many second-rate documentaries myself. Claims that go like 'ALL X were Y' are pretty easily debunked though.

With respect to 4., what the woman probably refers to in the interview is that she never heard of price put on someone's head in the Soviet armed forces. I find it unlikely that Stalin PERSONALLY would do something like that anyway. On the other hand, it seems universally accepted that Hartmann and Rudel both had price on their heads.

rnzoli
02-25-2008, 06:12 AM
Sure generalization is easy to detect and debunk, still, it is so common to see this in political speeches and in the popular media. I mean, just as the communist/socialist propaganda idolized their own system, the western media often demonized it the same way.

Nowhere is the conflict more pronounced than in the former Eastern Block countries, where past deeds and vices a subject of constant political battle. Case in point: some years ago, a very nice official from a party publicly advertised zero tolerance against former communists, especially the former spy networks. Some days later it came out in the press that his father was actually part of this network, IIRC albeit forcibly enrolled, never doing any actual harm. So much for the generalization.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

FPSOLKOR
02-25-2008, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
With respect to 1., 2. and 3., I have never heard such claims on any TV channel, or anywhere for that matter, although I have seen many second-rate documentaries myself. Claims that go like 'ALL X were Y' are pretty easily debunked though.

With respect to 4., what the woman probably refers to in the interview is that she never heard of price put on someone's head in the Soviet armed forces. I find it unlikely that Stalin PERSONALLY would do something like that anyway. On the other hand, it seems universally accepted that Hartmann and Rudel both had price on their heads.
What I pointed out are commonly said things at THIS forum. I've been around really long time, actually I was one of the first members under another name.
About 4. Who UNIVERSALLY accepts it? Who mentioned it FIRST? Hartmann (via tolliver and Constable)? Rudel? Neither I, nor my fellow researchers saw a document with a price for their heads. You do not understand how the system should have worked, if such order was issued:
1. Who could have issued it? A person with enough knowlege about enemy armed forces to know all the names of staffeln commanders, with a power to order a ministry (NK) of finance to hand over the money (What was the actual sum? Any idea about money value at the time?), with a power to issue an order to ALL armed forces (since if noone knows about the prize, no one will hunt for it), like an order No 227. There were only three men in Soviet Government with such powers - Stalin, Kalinin and Chief of Staff.
2. There should be at least three documents - a doucument from one of these three
to NK of finance
to Armed forces (which sould be read to all personnel of the armed forces, and signed by all those who heard it)
to Stalin, if document did not originate from him
Plus there should be documents in respose - something like "an order No xxxx\xxx from (date) was recieved and carried away".
3. No documents were so far found. Out of found documents all have a more or less direct numbering system - from No 1 to final number of the year. They all have an index which allows to understand to which department it corresponds. Not a single pilot from about a hundred I questioned had ever mentioned about such an order read.

Thus, untill I see the document with my own eyes - I do not believe it.

M_Gunz
02-25-2008, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by FPSOLKOR:
I'll mention four:
1. All people in prison in SU (befour GPW) were held there for political reasons
2. All traitors were executed on site
3. Judges were free to do anything without any punishment
4. Stalin personally ordered prices on someones head

Solkor, from all I have heard none of those is anything but news to me.
1 & 2 where you say 'all' I have heard 'many' which is much different.
3 is complete surprise to me, but I am no expert at anti-Soviet opinion.
4 -- I have read and heard that Stalin personally did order many people shot, was the whole
understanding of many 1000's killed in purges also a myth?

I have a nephew who was exchange student in Moscow. He got a chance to work as stage crew for
Billy Joel at the concert, tells you when. The best illustration of tension between people
and the government he gave was how during the concert when the lights were on the audience
everyone stood still and no smiles. When the lights and cameras were on the stage, everyone
danced. When the network people saw that, they wanted to show that Russian people like the
same things, do the same things, so they turned lights and cameras on the crowd. The crowd
stopped dancing immediately. If seen and recognized the results would not be happy -- not
to be shot or jailed maybe but not happy and marked for life. So the world did not see and
hopefully no one was asked questions or lost a job.

We have people here who would have anyone not acting "right" to be sorry. The process has
been active in smaller ways since before I was born but the strictures get narrower and the
means are constantly pushed towards control. It affects jobs and careers to say the least.
Should it be irony or what that those who hated the USSR most are the ones who would restrict
freedoms here the most as well?

WN_Barbarossa
02-27-2008, 03:11 AM
Originally posted by FPSOLKOR:
You do not understand how the system should have worked, if such order was issued:
1. Who could have issued it? A person with enough knowlege about enemy armed forces to know all the names of staffeln commanders, with a power to order a ministry (NK) of finance to hand over the money (What was the actual sum? Any idea about money value at the time?), with a power to issue an order to ALL armed forces (since if noone knows about the prize, no one will hunt for it), like an order No 227. There were only three men in Soviet Government with such powers - Stalin, Kalinin and Chief of Staff.
2. There should be at least three documents - a doucument from one of these three
to NK of finance
to Armed forces (which sould be read to all personnel of the armed forces, and signed by all those who heard it)
to Stalin, if document did not originate from him
Plus there should be documents in respose - something like "an order No xxxx\xxx from (date) was recieved and carried away".
3. No documents were so far found. Out of found documents all have a more or less direct numbering system - from No 1 to final number of the year. They all have an index which allows to understand to which department it corresponds. Not a single pilot from about a hundred I questioned had ever mentioned about such an order read.

Thus, untill I see the document with my own eyes - I do not believe it.

AFAIK sometimes "revisionist historians" claim that Herr Hitler didn't know anything about the genocide, because so far no written order or any kind of similar document had been found from him directly referring to the gas chambers.

And with this arguement I don't mean Hitler was not guilty.