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View Full Version : Why make more jets/post WW2 aircraft instead of fixing FW190 DM? NT -nt



XyZspineZyX
12-08-2003, 08:44 AM
nt = No Text

XyZspineZyX
12-08-2003, 08:44 AM
nt = No Text

XyZspineZyX
12-08-2003, 01:19 PM
I'd like to know that for sure. A good DM is really lacking, both for those who fly it or those who fight against it IMO. I fly the Dora and I'd love an accurate DM.

Nic

The first official D12 whiner!

XyZspineZyX
12-08-2003, 02:48 PM
Most of the new planes are from third party modelers. Unlikely that they'd be able to do anything about making a complex damage model for the FW190.

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XyZspineZyX
12-08-2003, 05:02 PM
What we have here is Failure to communicate....
At this point in the scheme Oleg and company [weasel word coming] for the most part is not providing ANY new planes.

The new planes are the creations and pet projects of numerous dedicated 3D modeling "Fans" of the game. 1C: is integrating the flight characteristics and packaging them together along with some bonus material and selling this next disk as an add-on. I'm assuming here but I don't think the add-on will require you to upgrade to play online with others, except for some of the missions

What does this means for you and this thread.. The "choices are governed by, and at the generosity of, the 3-rd party modelers and what you GET is what THEY want to see/fly.

Don't go overboard on your criticism and be glad that
A- 3rd party modelers are doing ANYTHING
B- Oleg and 1C: is spending their time integrating ANY of the 3rd party models into HIS game



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XyZspineZyX
12-08-2003, 07:16 PM
Third-party modellers can not make internal DMs. Maddox Games does this for all aircraft, including new ones.

--AKD

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XyZspineZyX
12-08-2003, 08:48 PM
You sir are correct and i fell for my own tagline about failure to communicate...
My point was however that 1C: has almost nothing to do with new planes or jets anymore

A.K.Davis wrote:
- Third-party modellers can not make internal DMs.
- Maddox Games does this for all aircraft, including
- new ones.
-
---AKD


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XyZspineZyX
12-08-2003, 09:19 PM
I'm quite glad the 190 isn't as tough any more than it was before.

Now don't get me wrong, I still think she's hard enough to crack.

The 190 is still one of the toughest planes in the game. I think only some IL-2 versions can compare to the 190's durability.

To explain my opinion: I fly the B-17G into online battles, and most of my enemies use the following planes:

Bf-109 (various versions, mostly K4)
La-7
A6M Zero
Ki-84 "Frank"
Fw-190 (mostly A9)
P-51 Mustang

If I would have to rank them from most durable to least durable, the list would look like this:

1. Fw-190
2. La-7
2. Ki-84
4. Bf-109
4. P-51 Mustang
6. A6M Zero

I think the La-7 and the Frank are pretty equal, at least when it comes to bomber attacking, same goes for the 109/Mustang ranking, though I think the 109 can take a little more than the Pony. The Zero is partly made of japanese paperwork (at least I get that feeling sometimes), so it ranks last place.
The 190 is a lot more durable than the other listed planes, and it also brings along a good engine and heavy weaponry.

To conclude my analasys, I don't think there's anything wrong with the 190, while you now have a bigger chance to beat her, she's still one tough warbird.

Thanks for your attention,

S!



- Future

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XyZspineZyX
12-09-2003, 01:03 AM
JRJacobs wrote:
- You sir are correct and i fell for my own tagline
- about failure to communicate...
- My point was however that 1C: has almost nothing to
- do with new planes or jets anymore

Uh, except for making their flight models, damage models, and integrating them into the game, but other than that, yeah, almost nothing at all. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

--AKD

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Message Edited on 12/09/0312:05AM by A.K.Davis

XyZspineZyX
12-09-2003, 01:15 AM
Future- wrote:
- I'm quite glad the 190 isn't as tough any more than
- it was before.
-
- Now don't get me wrong, I still think she's hard
- enough to crack.
-
- The 190 is still one of the toughest planes in the
- game. I think only some IL-2 versions can compare to
- the 190's durability.

Not tougher. Not weaker. Complex, with multiple internal structures that can be damaged and more than two or three ways to knock the aircraft out of action.

- 1. Fw-190
- 2. La-7
- 2. Ki-84
- 4. Bf-109
- 4. P-51 Mustang
- 6. A6M Zero
-

Of these six aircraft, guess which one has a simplified damage model leftover from the old Il-2 game?

- To conclude my analasys, I don't think there's
- anything wrong with the 190, while you now have a
- bigger chance to beat her, she's still one tough
- warbird.

No, nothing wrong with 190, except it's lack of a complex DM. Other than that it is an excellent plane, but one which takes damage unrealistically, and can be boring to fly when you always either get PK'ed or lose a wing.

I don't care if you disagree that the 190 is worth giving a complex DM to, but please at least read the threads and understand the issue before posting your opinion.

--AKD

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XyZspineZyX
12-09-2003, 03:27 AM
we need more planes

i mean NEED as in ABSOLUTLY ESSENTIAL

more 45 & 46 planes too

more jap & american & british

MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE
MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE
MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE
MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE

XyZspineZyX
12-09-2003, 03:29 AM
i forgot to mention more jets

MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE
MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE
MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE

as in FB shouldnt even boot untill they are released in a patch

XyZspineZyX
12-09-2003, 03:57 AM
IL-2 Sturmovik is billed as a "WWII combat simulator" -- I hope that means planes that saw action in WWII will get priority for inclusion into the game over planes that did not. I would rather have more flyables, especially bombers.

XyZspineZyX
12-09-2003, 04:11 AM
Unconfirmed possibility of a flyable B-25 in the Addon pack, and several others in the works from third party modelers:

A-20 (which saw both USAAF and VVS service in significant numbers)
B-17
B-24
Lancaster
JU-88

Also several notable fighter bombers in the works like the Me-410 and the Bf-110G (which is apparently in for the pack I think). So we're in pretty good shape there....post Addon we'll also hopefully be getting Tempest, Spitfire IX and XIV, Typhoon, Corsair, MC 205 (I think), lots of potential in the works.

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"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." - Winston Churchill

XyZspineZyX
12-09-2003, 05:16 AM
@ Ak Davis: Whats wrong with the possibility that a 190 pilot gets killed or the plane looses a wing? These things happen to many other planes in the game too.

And if you would give the 190 a more complex DM, then you would have to do this for ALL planes. And while we're at it, the collision routine also needs a work-over.

I know what you'√¬§re talking about, sometimes I also wonder that a planes wing can come off just buy a few hits... while on other occasions you blast away on it like mad, and the wings get tons of holes, but don't come off.

But all this leads to the very same overall conclusion:
basically, the 190 is tougher than most other planes in the game. And we both know that once again, reality and FB are two seperate things.

S!



- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

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XyZspineZyX
12-09-2003, 05:47 AM
Future- wrote:
- @ Ak Davis: Whats wrong with the possibility that a
- 190 pilot gets killed or the plane looses a wing?
- These things happen to many other planes in the game
- too.

Because those are the ONLY possibilities. In other aircraft, the pilot can be wounded, either lightly or heavily and you can experience damage to the cockpit area that does not affect the pilots, like holes in the canopy, damage to gauges and a ruined gunsight. In the Fw-190, when you take a hit in the cockpit area you either 1. die instantly, or 2. nothing happens. In other aircraft, hits to the wings can produce several different results depending on the location and degree of damage, including damage to controls, damage to wing guns, failure at the wing tip, failure at the wing mid-section, and failure at the wing root. In the Fw-190 hits to wings produce two results (apparently based on probability): 1. destabilization of the wing, or 2. failure of the wing at mid-section.

-
- And if you would give the 190 a more complex DM,
- then you would have to do this for ALL planes. And
- while we're at it, the collision routine also needs
- a work-over.

Almost ALL the other flyable aircraft in the game DO have complex damage models (the exceptions being the Lagg and I-16).

-
- I know what you'√¬§re talking about, sometimes I also
- wonder that a planes wing can come off just buy a
- few hits... while on other occasions you blast away
- on it like mad, and the wings get tons of holes, but
- don't come off.

In aircraft with complex DMs, this happens because a round strikes and destroys a wing spar, or explodes a fuel tank, or some similar critical damage.

-
- But all this leads to the very same overall
- conclusion:
- basically, the 190 is tougher than most other planes
- in the game.

Here we go again. "Tougher." "Weaker." You'd think we were talking about Dungeons and Dragons and trying to decide the right number of "hitpoints" for the Fw-190. Tougher or weaker makes no difference and is not the issue at hand. The "durability" (you can almost read this as "hitpoints," lol) does not make the aircraft take damage more realistically.

- And we both know that once again,
- reality and FB are two seperate things.

Yes, but it would be nice if the separation between the two was consistent.

--AKD

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Message Edited on 12/09/0307:14AM by A.K.Davis

XyZspineZyX
12-09-2003, 05:50 AM
I'm convinced...definately a major aircraft...probably needs some time spent on it I suppose. Perhaps its part of the plan on the Addon along with ordinance for aircraft that currently lack it.

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XyZspineZyX
12-09-2003, 10:18 AM
Come on people,we've all written and read a lot about the simplified DM of the FW190.
We all agree that an a/C that has over 20 000 units produced during WW2 deserves a complex DM.( not to become tougher or weaker, just complex )
I think the only way to settle things definitely is seeing Oleg answering personally the 2 following questions :
1. is there going to be a FW190 complex DM ?
2. if not, why ?
As long as we don't get these answers, there will be trollers frolicking around on the subject and good virtual pilots trying to get things right.



"Ce qui ne nous tue pas nous rend plus fort."
F. Nietzsche

XyZspineZyX
12-09-2003, 02:28 PM
bloody_april wrote:
- Come on people,we've all written and read a lot
- about the simplified DM of the FW190.
- We all agree that an a/C that has over 20 000 units
- produced during WW2 deserves a complex DM.( not to
- become tougher or weaker, just complex )
- I think the only way to settle things definitely is
- seeing Oleg answering personally the 2 following
- questions :
- 1. is there going to be a FW190 complex DM ?
- 2. if not, why ?
- As long as we don't get these answers, there will be
- trollers frolicking around on the subject and good
- virtual pilots trying to get things right.

Now this is what I am talking about. I don't care how tough or weak the FW190 is, as long as we could get a COMPLEX!!!! DM. This aircraft was so important to the germans in the second world war. How come addon craft that never saw combat are added, with all the work that entails, DM (whether complex or simple, it has to be done), FM etc. and they do not make a complex DM for the 190???? It is beyond me. Germans have basically 2 planes: 109 and 190. That makes the axis side have about 50% of the planes suffering from a simple damage model. This is simply not the case with the other planes. Why not spend some time on this and just postpone other craft that never even saw action in WW2?

I am not saying that I do not want the additional craft, but why can't they wait a little while until all the actual WW2 craft have a complex DM??

I simply do not get it.

HalfAsleep

XyZspineZyX
12-09-2003, 02:39 PM
Bump.

XyZspineZyX
12-09-2003, 03:11 PM
Hm, right, I agree on that. 190 needs some more attention there, maybe Oleg is adressing this for the pay-add-on. Or maybe he just doesn't care enough about this since he might be busy with something more important.

And about that loadout problem, I hereby order the option to have 2000lbs bombs for the B-17. I know they were used, often mixed with 1000lbs and 500lbs bombs. A wider field of loadout options would be nice, like we have them for Pe-8 or some 190 models.


- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

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XyZspineZyX
12-10-2003, 12:19 AM
"Come on people,we've all written and read a lot about the simplified DM of the FW190"

We have?

S!
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XyZspineZyX
12-10-2003, 12:33 AM
You have to be kidding me...... the 1.21 190 is almost a tank!! The thing takes more lead than any other fighter in the sim. Unless you hit a wing root of catch a elevator or wing tip or something like that the thing will suck up lead like a sponge.

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XyZspineZyX
12-10-2003, 01:33 AM
secret to knocking one down is aim for the wings, the fuselage will take tons of lead(which is also wrong), but the wings are like paper.


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