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SurfDrifter
10-18-2010, 03:03 PM
First of all, English is not my native language, so please forgive any mistakes that I'll make.

I would like to express my disappointment regarding the addition of multiplayer trophies in the game and I'm confident that I'm not the minority that feels that way, but the majority.

I'd like to explain why.

Gaming is a hobby that people do on their past time, therefore since it's done for entertainment, people isn't forced to do it, but chooses to do so, in order to entertain himself/herself.

Also, there are several psychographic profiles for players around the globe and players have different incentives to play a game.

For instance, there are casual players, that like the experience and just play the campaign once and that's it.

Also, there are the hardcore players, the completionists, the onliners, the trophy/achievement hunters and probably other profiles too.

Each of these profiles has a build-in expectation of what to expect from a game and developers' job is to satisfy these expectations.

That's why , established IP's (sequels) fare better than new IP's. It's because the developers satisfy the expectations of players, adding some new features, polishing the mistakes of the past, etc.

I belong to the trophy/achievement hunter demographic and what MOST, if not ALL hunters, share in common is that they hate online trophies and most of them the don't like online in general.

I'm pretty sure developers know that and I cannot understand why the keep adding that ridiculous grind trophies.

Online trophies, historically cause only trouble and nothing more.

Pure online players DO NOT care about trophies/achievements (at least the majority). Their own "boasting" tool is the leaderboards where they try to climb. On the other hand, trophy hunters, will try to boost the trophies, which is a tedious process for them, causing frustration, that doesn't offer any entertainment whatsoever, but in addition, it spoils the online portion of the game, because it will hurt the gameplay for genuine online players.

I will not go into paradigms of various games that had online trophies and failed miserably, but I will show you the king of online gaming: Call of Duty. They refuse to add online trophies, beacuse they know that online trophies aren't desired FROM THE ACTUAL DEMOGRAPHIC THAT CARES ABOUT TROPHIES.

I believe that the only reason, developers ever put online trophies is to "force" people to stay more on the game, but this ALWAYS backlashes.

I'm 34 years old, playing video games for more than 25 years and it's time for me to become a cliche.

I was waiting for this game, BUT I will not buy it, because I want from now on to enjoy every minute that I play and not do things that I don't want to do. Gaming mustn't be a chore and unfortunately online grinding is chore for all trophy hunters.

And lastly, please I don't want to start an argument, if trophy hunting is good or bad and that why I'm willing to pass a good game if it has online trophies.

I'm doing it because I want things to change in the future and leave online trophies such as "win a 1000 online games" in Rid**** and kill 10000 people in Resistance 2, etc.

But, I'm more than willing to hear what developers have to say for the addition of online trophies.

But I doubt if anyone will bother to explain their reasoning behind it...

mikeh1294
10-18-2010, 03:10 PM
You raise some good points mate, but could you please post here. (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/2321003788) Keeps the forums tidy!

Chewitt321
10-18-2010, 03:25 PM
Hey can I use that phrase:
I am XX years old, I have played video games for XX years it is time for me to become a cliche.

mrfishy101
10-18-2010, 05:38 PM
I'm not judging, but is this the only reason you're not going to get it? I can understand the trophy hunter aspect, but even if you don't like the multiplayer or are frustrated by it's trophies, I don't think that's a reason that outweighs the rest of the games pros. It's your opinion, but mine is it's a fun game, and you can do the multiplayer achievements passively.

extrememuffin
10-19-2010, 08:48 AM
UbiGabe even said in one of his tweets that most people dont want online achievments then a few days later BAM there is online achievments.

personally the reason i dont want them is because some people dont have accses to the internet and wont be able to complete some of the trophies. those who do have the internet most just want to play the game for fun not have to beat something.

i also think though its a wierd reason to not get a game.

SurfDrifter
10-20-2010, 03:37 AM
It's a legitimate comment to find it weird or sth not to buy the game.

The reason behind this decision has to do with the limited time that i have now (i became dad 2 months ago) and it's very hard to try to coordinate people to boost sessions. also, personally I'm fed up with trophy boosting, since its pretty boring, but essential to satisfy trophy hunters OCD: Platinum.

Since, there are numerous games that i want to play, I'm pretty sure I won't miss it that much.

EzioAssassin51
10-20-2010, 03:49 AM
I don't mind them but personally, the 'Take the lead with 10 seconds left and the every Bonus once are ridiculous because they are really hard to get (the latter because you'll need to get the don't die once one).

Caligula__
10-20-2010, 04:14 AM
the "Take the lead with 10 seconds remaining" is quite easy to get, I've gotten it 5 times already, each one in a row

Akasha_Ishtar
10-20-2010, 09:32 PM
I think you should have the option of getting you final achievement/trophy on or offline as there are so many out there that don have their systems connected and itís just plain unfair to them if they really want to try and get all. Your system can read if connected so the ones that are get the online trophies the ones that are not donít, seems right to me.

abarth-EOL
10-21-2010, 08:05 PM
I am very disappointed with multiplayer trophies as well. For two reasons.

First, Assassin's Creed has to be focused on the single player mode, the multiplayer as an addition can be OK, but nothing else. So, pushing players to play it to obtain trophies looks absurd to me.

And most important, for those who want to play online, what they'll get are teenagers hunting trophies and cheating as much as they can to achieve the trophies, like level 50 and then they'll abandon, what means that a lot of MP games will be with idiots running around, cheating and trying to get points quickly.

In my opinion, all the MP trophies should be offline trophies, like in AC2, and then add all the MP trophies as they wish, like un Uncharted 2, where the MP trophies ain't needed for Platinum trophy and keep the AC saga as it is, a single player game where it's plot and development are the most important, and not a bunch of teenagers killing everything they find in multiplayer.

RandomRansom
10-21-2010, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by SurfDrifter:
It's a legitimate comment to find it weird or sth not to buy the game.

The reason behind this decision has to do with the limited time that i have now (i became dad 2 months ago) and it's very hard to try to coordinate people to boost sessions. also, personally I'm fed up with trophy boosting, since its pretty boring, but essential to satisfy trophy hunters OCD: Platinum.

Since, there are numerous games that i want to play, I'm pretty sure I won't miss it that much.

I've got an idea for you, and really everyone out there who hates these online trophies (I'm not fond of them, but I'm also not overly concerned about them). If you have a PS3... I bet you do because you referred to them as trophies, then add me as a friend (my PSN ID is the same as my user ID here) and I'm sure we can get a group of people together to help each other get the trophies for everyone. I bet I'm not the only one out there who has thought of this.

In this way, we can make the online trophies almost mean nothing and become pointless. That puts the importance back onto the single player trophies/achievements. Then the trophy hunters can be satisfied.

In fact, if anyone wants to collaboratively work to get all the online trophies we can, add me. I wouldn't mind helping people get them well after I already have them all. If everyone in the session works together, then most of them will be easy to get (especially with headsets/mics).

davo1270
10-21-2010, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by RandomRansom:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SurfDrifter:
It's a legitimate comment to find it weird or sth not to buy the game.

The reason behind this decision has to do with the limited time that i have now (i became dad 2 months ago) and it's very hard to try to coordinate people to boost sessions. also, personally I'm fed up with trophy boosting, since its pretty boring, but essential to satisfy trophy hunters OCD: Platinum.

Since, there are numerous games that i want to play, I'm pretty sure I won't miss it that much.

I've got an idea for you, and really everyone out there who hates these online trophies (I'm not fond of them, but I'm also not overly concerned about them). If you have a PS3... I bet you do because you referred to them as trophies, then add me as a friend (my PSN ID is the same as my user ID here) and I'm sure we can get a group of people together to help each other get the trophies for everyone. I bet I'm not the only one out there who has thought of this.

In this way, we can make the online trophies almost mean nothing and become pointless. That puts the importance back onto the single player trophies/achievements. Then the trophy hunters can be satisfied.

In fact, if anyone wants to collaboratively work to get all the online trophies we can, add me. I wouldn't mind helping people get them well after I already have them all. If everyone in the session works together, then most of them will be easy to get (especially with headsets/mics). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

add me too, i have no headset but i would like for all of us to help each other get the multi trophies, my psn is also my ID

Sloshylucas
10-22-2010, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by SurfDrifter:

Call of Duty. They refuse to add online trophies, beacuse they know that online trophies aren't desired FROM THE ACTUAL DEMOGRAPHIC THAT CARES ABOUT TROPHIES.


Umm... yeah. Bout that. Lookie here: COD7 Achivements List (http://www.cod7blackops.com/achievements/) The majority of the list is offline trophies but as you can see there are also online ones like "Win 5 Wager Matches in the money" which is a new online game mode for COD7.

notafanboy
10-22-2010, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by RandomRansom:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SurfDrifter:
It's a legitimate comment to find it weird or sth not to buy the game.

The reason behind this decision has to do with the limited time that i have now (i became dad 2 months ago) and it's very hard to try to coordinate people to boost sessions. also, personally I'm fed up with trophy boosting, since its pretty boring, but essential to satisfy trophy hunters OCD: Platinum.

Since, there are numerous games that i want to play, I'm pretty sure I won't miss it that much.

I've got an idea for you, and really everyone out there who hates these online trophies (I'm not fond of them, but I'm also not overly concerned about them). If you have a PS3... I bet you do because you referred to them as trophies, then add me as a friend (my PSN ID is the same as my user ID here) and I'm sure we can get a group of people together to help each other get the trophies for everyone. I bet I'm not the only one out there who has thought of this.

In this way, we can make the online trophies almost mean nothing and become pointless. That puts the importance back onto the single player trophies/achievements. Then the trophy hunters can be satisfied.

In fact, if anyone wants to collaboratively work to get all the online trophies we can, add me. I wouldn't mind helping people get them well after I already have them all. If everyone in the session works together, then most of them will be easy to get (especially with headsets/mics). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>add me psn: nitres15

DeafAtheist
10-22-2010, 10:31 PM
I'm not a hardcore achievement/trophy hunter nor am I a casual gamer. I just enjoy games for what they are both single player and multiplayer. That being said I DO enjoy earning achievements (Xbox 360 gamer) but I don't care about getting every single achievement in every game I play. For me it's about having fun and achievements are just a bonus that encourage you to do things you might not otherwise do in a game like an achievement to throw money in a well (Your Wish is Granted Achievement in ACB).

For games that I really enjoy I will do everything I can to get all of the available achievements in it including multplayer achievements, but if it's a game I don't really like much I might just play thru the single player campaign once or quit halfway thru if it bores me.

For games with multiplayer that I enjoy I like earning achievements in multiplayer. It's fun to boost achievements with friends. So I don't mind multiplayer achievements as long as they don't require massive unnecessary grinding. They have to be achievements you can realistically get without spending 6 months trying to earn a single achievement that's only worth 10 pts to your gamerscore.

I have a buddy who will try to get every single achievement in a game if he got at least 1 in the game even if he ends up hating the game. Personally I couldn't do that. I couldn't waste countless hours getting achievements in a game I don't enjoy. I'd just take what I got and play something else.

As for Brotherhood's multiplayer achievements they don't really seem to be that difficult to obtain...


Synchronization Established 10

Complete an entire Session with at least one kill (Multiplayer Only).

Not too hard at all. You'd probably get that in the very first multiplayer game you play unless you completely suck at it.


Needle in a Haystack 5

Kill your target while hidden in a hay bale (Multiplayer Only).

Ok this one might be a little harder to do, but I'm sure it wouldn't take too long for an opportunity for it to arise. You could easily be hiding from your pursuer in a hay bale and your own target unwittingly approaches it giving you the kill. Might take a handful of games to get it but ultimately not that difficult to obtain.


Strong Closer 20

Take the lead 10 seconds before the end of the session and go on to win (Multiplayer Only).

A lot of people think this is gonna be hard to get but I don't think so. You could easily be in 2nd place towards the end of the game and get a kill with 10 seconds left on the clock without anyone else getting anymore kills before the clock runs out and getting enough points for the kill to take the lead.


Fast Learner 25

Kill your target and escape your pursuer in less than 10 seconds (Multiplayer Only).

Another one people think would be difficult to get but I disagree. You could easily be running away from a pursuer, get some distance between you by running thru a chase breaker and happen to run into your own target giving you a chance to kill him. Then quickly run thru another chase breaker or take a lift to the roof and lose your pursuer before he can close the distance between you. It might take a few games to get it but it's likely to be something that happens without actually trying to get it, just thru normal gameplay.


Job skills 20

During Open Conflict, kill your target and escape (Multiplayer Only).

Similar to the last one but without the 10 second time limit. This one would be even easier to get than the last one.


Download Complete 40

Reach Level 50 (Multiplayer Only).

Another easy one. Most of the beta players reached level 20 within the short period the beta was available. Would only take a few more weeks of playing to reach 50. If you enjoy the multiplayer game enough to just play it for fun regularly you'll earn this one in time.


Role Model 20

Get all the Co-op bonuses in 1 session (Multiplayer Only).

This one might be one of the hardest to obtain, but with a little practice it shouldn't be overly difficult to come up with a strategy for doing different kills and getting every bonus possible. And the fact that your teammate's kills would count towards the achievement as well as your own could make it easier to obtain if you have a teammate who is good at the game.


Overachiever 20

Score 750 points or more on a single kill (Multiplayer Only).

I've seen MANY players get more than 750 pts in a kill when chain and stealth bonuses add up. This will be a piece of cake especially against less skilled players.


Abstergo Employee of the Month 20

Get every bonus at least once (Multiplayer Only).

This one looks like it would be harder than it is. It might take several games to get all of the bonuses but unlike the Role Model achievement you wouldn't have to get them all in 1 game so try to focus on getting bonuses you haven't gotten yet and eventually you'd get it with a little persistence.


Ahead of the Curve 20

Perform a double or a triple escape (Multiplayer Only).

Not too hard at all. I've seen many players do this in the beta. If you're in 1st place you're likely to be doing more escaping than killing since you'll have 2-3 players pursuing you and if they are all behind you chasing after you if you're quick enough and effectively use chasebreakers and break their line of sight and get a good hiding spot it can be easily done.

So I bet bet the average achievement hunter could get every multiplayer achievement here within a month. My buddy who is an achievement hunter is like you... he will avoid great games simply because they have difficult achievements to obtain. I just don't get that. Games are about having fun and I can't imagine denying myself the experience of playing a game I know I'd love just because some of the achievements in it would be hard to get.

RandomRansom
10-24-2010, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
:::Truncating message for ease of reading:::
A lot of what you said is true. However, there a few of those trophies that rely heavily on the position of other people playing the game. There may be people out there who just NEVER have the other players in the right place at the right time. Due to the chaotic nature of human intelligence and infinite possible positions in any given map, that is a possibility.

Then there are a few bonuses that are just nigh impossible to get. I've never gone through a game and made it through without dying. I think you'd have to never kill anyone, and spend the game running around avoiding your assassin (if you're unlucky enough to get one on you).

I won't go through the rest of them because my complaints are basically the same for most (mainly the really hard ones though). Trophies should be based on a certain skill level not a certain probability of occurrence. If the dev team relies on the possibility of probability then they open the door of the situation never occurring right. Even if it does happen to occur, then the player has to react just right in that situation or wait until that situation occurs again (which may never happen again).

It sounds somewhat easy if you explain getting the trophy/achievement with the people in the right place at the right time, but you just may never find yourself with people in the right place at the right time (and doing the right things to make it all possible).

And, yes, there are really only 3-5 trophies that I'm mainly complaining about, but that's a third to one half of the online trophies. Not to mention you may not know which of the bonuses you haven't gotten yet (when you're down to that last one or two less obvious ones... like trying to find that last feather in Venice). So maybe 6 of the trophies...

DeafAtheist
10-24-2010, 11:43 AM
@RandomRansom

I had forgotten that there was a bonus for not dying. That one will be indeed hard to get, but not impossible. Like you said if you focus more on defense than offense you might get it. Otherwise you could get it much more easily by boosting with friends. Just pick a character like say the Courtesan and take turns being the courtesan each session with the understanding among all that whoever has the courtesan as a target doesn't kill her thru the whole round then after the round someone else plays as the courtesan until everyone has gotten the bonus for not being killed towards the achievement.

Hopefully there will be some kind of stat list that keeps track of bonuses in multiplayer so you can either look up online or within the game which bonuses you got in FFA or co-op multiplayer sessions. If not the easiest way to keep track would be to write down on a sheet of paper all the possible bonuses and anytime you get one check it off while playing. Sure you might get a kill that includes more than one bonus and could forget one or two that you already got but as you check them off the fewer you have left to acquire the easier it will be to keep track of which ones you still need to get.

As for the one for getting all co-op bonuses in a single session you and a partner could split them in half and each of you try to get half of them and if you succeed in both of you getting all of your half of the bonuses the achievement will pop for sure, but there's also the possibility that your partner might get one on your list unintentionally and if you miss it the achievement would still pop cuz your partner got some that you missed and vice-versa.

Personally I think there should be some achievements/trophies that are hard to get because they take dedication and determination to work towards them and it makes the acquisition of them that much more satisfying. I love it when I'm playing with someone online who compares games with me then sends me a message saying, "Dude how'd you get that (name of achievement here) achievement!"

I don't feel as much of a sense of accomplishment if I acquire 1000G (Platinum trophy for PS3 players) on a game where every single achievement is pathetically easy to get. Just the word "Achievement" is defined on dictionary.com as: something accomplished, esp. by superior ability, special effort, great courage, etc. Nothing in that definition about accomplishing something pathetically easy.

RandomRansom
11-04-2010, 03:23 PM
@DeafAtheist

Oh, I'm not saying it is impossible to get these trophies/acheivments on your own. I'm saying it is within the realm of possibility that you can get these trophies. The probability of getting some of them is unknown due to the reliance on the position of other players and your position in the map as well. In essence, the probability could be so low that when the moment does occur (if ever or even if multiple times), you do the wrong thing and never get the trophy.

Oh, I'm absolutely going to "boost" all I can. At first mainly for everyone else (I think). Then after I find the trophies I just can't seem to get, I'll use friends to get them. In fact, I'll be posting a short message after this to remind people I'm willing to do this with them (only got three or so friend invites from this thread).

I hope you're right about an in-game check list for bonuses. That would be extremely helpful.

Don't forget the bonuses in co-op such as "kill your contract while your partner has them targeted." That will require some timing, and a partner who can target things well enough. Oh, and the special chain bonus that requires you to kill your contract only seconds after your partner kills theirs. Oh, and I don't think you get credit for the bonuses your partner gets. I seem to remember having my own score apart from my partner (our team could be in first but the people on your team may not even be in first place based on scores).

Oh, I'm right there with you on the achievements/trophies being difficult (having at least a few that are really hard to get). I just don't like around a third of the online trophies because of the issues with probability and possibility and chaos theory when it comes to human intelligence. If there's an AI, then it will be at least somewhat (if not very) predictable. Human intelligence can often be unpredictable (as we're not programmed to do certain things or be in certain spots).

I think achievements/trophies are like their own RPG, in a way. Right away there are things you get that don't mean too much (easy) but garner interest to continue. Later, you get things that were harder to get and mean more. Finally, you find there are a few things that are hard to get that mean the most and separate the hard core gamers willing to put in the time to get them from those not willing. So, where I don't think the word achievement and all XBox achievements are completely congruent, I definitely agree with you (input trophy where applicable and PS3... you get the idea).

In the end, due to the chaos theory, it is possible for me to get all of the online trophies very easily with little effort... basically almost on accident. It is also possible for me to never get them all even if I rock at the game and play all day long. I guess I just don't like probability, possibility, and the chaos theory ruling over my trophies rather than getting the trophy based on "superior ability, special effort, great courage, etc." To put it simply... I don't like having to rely more on luck than skill to get a trophy.

Answering that question with, "I'm not completely sure how you're supposed to get the trophy. I was lucky to be in the perfect situation to get it," doesn't sound so impressive.

RandomRansom
11-04-2010, 03:28 PM
To all worried about online trophies,

Add me as a friend. My PSN ID is the same as my user name here. We'll work together to get the trophies we're having trouble getting.

I have a headset and a lot of patience. I'm willing to help people even long after I've gotten all of mine (cause I'll keep trying until I do).

DeafAtheist
11-04-2010, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by RandomRansom:
Oh, and I don't think you get credit for the bonuses your partner gets.

Maybe your scoring is separate from your partner's... it should be that way because if you're playing stealthy and racking up high point kills while your partner is a run & stab noob getting 100 pts per kill naturally it wouldn't be fair for you to split the total score between you... would end up with you getting less than you deserve and him getting more.

However, for the achievement I believe that you would get credit for bonuses your partner does because it wouldn't be easily possible in the short amount of time to do all of the co-op bonuses yourself in a single game.

RandomRansom
11-04-2010, 04:26 PM
Now you're arguing my point for me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But if you're right about splitting bonuses between partners, then that means I don't even have to get any of them in a single game. My partner could. Or I could get one and they get the other 5 (or however many there were/are), and I still get the trophy. Does that seem fair to you? That's basically like splitting points (especially since bonuses are worth points... and I don't recall ever getting bonus points out of the blue because my partner achieved a bonus... though points may not transfer and bonuses do... who knows?).