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View Full Version : Combat service of the Messerschmitt Me 262



darkhorizon11
02-27-2005, 08:39 PM
The 262 is one of my favorite planes of all time, not only is fast and sexy but was radically different to the other conventional prop aircraft at the time.

I've learned so much about it through IL2 and Janes and just reading about it but anothe fascination I have is it service record. The only number I have for it are that of the 1600 or so built, less that 15% ever saw any operational use. Mostly because the Germans were out of pilots that were capable of handling this wonder jet.

Anyways, I was looking for some good combat stories from the pilots who flew her and some numbers of its success and failure in the war. Many were destroyed on the ground and my uncle saw the ones he saw were pretty much junk was he was in Stuggart in 1945.

I checked www.stormbirds.com (http://www.stormbirds.com) and theres some good information about Watsons Whizzers and the new jets which are flying but nothing about its actual service record. These records could also finally put down the theory that the jet may have saved Germany...

Thanks.
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LeadSpitter_
02-27-2005, 09:38 PM
its not that they didnt have the pilots but engines materials and fuel

During the BIG WEEK the luft was pretty much destroyed along with all aircraft factories ballbearing plants, planes, rail system, fueldepos, 26 of their top scoring aces were killed during "big week". Alot of germans think the usaaf only faced rookie pilots but this was only in late 45 when ac were very few as well as pilots and so were materials, in 1944 they faced the hardcore battle experienced vets of the luftwaffe many of them pulled off the russian lines to defend berlin.

Some of the luft legends with 280 enemy shot down 250 150 etc didnt win the war even tho they were better experienced pilots but did cause major losses. Its not the plane but the experience of the pilot

looking at the soviet american australian british french polish chinese and all the allied forces they got noway near the ammount of enemy shotdown except for some japanese aces saburo saki and others compaired to the thousands who got 1-5 enemy shotdown.

but the allies had thousands of more pilots with 1-5 victories, which had a much higher combined kill to death ration compaired to the luft even some b17 gunners had ace status 5kills +

so basically they won by constant supplies, production #' and all allied forces working together.

for the me262 i really hope oleg adds in testrunways with limited spawns so we can start seeing some me262s online in limited numbers

_Neveraine_
02-27-2005, 09:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
for the me262 i really hope oleg adds in testrunways with limited spawns so we can start seeing some me262s online in limited numbers <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes please http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

wayno7777
02-27-2005, 10:12 PM
Off the top of my head I can think of a couple. The First and the Last by Adolf Galland and the current issue of Airpower have some stories of 262 service. I also believe there is a book on the history of JV44. Good luck.

darkhorizon11
02-27-2005, 10:14 PM
That is true by the time the 262 entered the war the Germans were short on everything, except for the wood they used to build the wing structure with. Either way I was looking for info on the service record, IE number of sorties flown engagements. Aerial engagements against Mustangs, B17s, Spits, that sorta thing. I've never really seen any numbers with it which is surprising. Given it didn't see anywhere near the action that the bf109 or the fw saw it was used fairly frequently. Its just that only a few were dispatched at a time. The most 262s that flew in one day was only something like 52 compared to the thousands of bombers and fighters thats were dispatched.

wayno7777
02-27-2005, 10:29 PM
Mackie Steinhoff's book may give some info, too. He was almost killed in one.
Steinhoff: "Many writers have covered that, but hardly anyone ever asked me about it, except for Raymond Toliver, so here is the true story. I was taking off in formation on April 18, 1945, for my 900th mission. Galland was leading the flight, which included Gerhard Barkhorn, [Klaus] Neumann, [Eduard] Schallmoser, [Ernst] Fahrmann and myself. We were to fly formation and engage an American bomber formation. Our airfield had suffered some damage over the last several days due to Allied bombing and strafing attacks, and as my jet was picking up speed, the left undercarriage struck a poorly patched crater. I lost the wheel, and the plane jumped perhaps a meter into the air, so I tried to raise the remaining right wheel. I was too low to abort takeoff, and my speed had not increased enough to facilitate takeoff. I knew as I came toward the end of the runway that I was going to crash. The 262 hit with a great thump, then a fire broke out in the cockpit as it skidded to a stop. I tried to unfasten my belts when an explosion rocked the plane, and I felt an intense heat. My 24 R4M rockets had exploded, and the fuel was burning me alive. I remember popping the canopy and jumping out, flames all around me, and I fell down and began to roll. The explosions continued, and the concussion was deafening, knocking the down as I tried to get up and run away. I cannot describe the pain."

Skalgrim
02-28-2005, 06:52 AM
The american has overrating from 4, the german only 2 , after historian opinion



that means most american ace are not ace,

and hartmann had make 60 kill one month, which american ace can that match

at italy had even american overrating from 6, had oleg say

thar means all american ace / 4 is more right

and italy even /6

Cajun76
02-28-2005, 09:24 AM
Hartmann also spent a month in the Western Front. How many kills did he rack up there?

Conditions and oppourtunity are everything, Jim. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

HeinzBar
02-28-2005, 09:39 AM
S!,
I have about every book published on the me262 (english translation of course). The books that would perhaps interest you the most are the following:

The Messerschmitt Me262 Combat Diary
by John Foreman, S.E. Harvey

JG7: The World's First Jet Fighter Unit 1944/1945 by Manfred Boehme

And of course the classic, and perhaps, most indepth mechanical series:

Me262 Volume One-Four
by J. Richard Smith & Eddie J. Creek

JV44 The Galland Circus
by Robert Forsyth

The first two books may be more to your liking. They discuss in detail day to day operations of the me262 while on the front. Both are excellent for the depth of information, while allowing the reader a glimpse of the difficult situation facing most me262 pilots.

Unfortunately, most of these books are hard to come by, but they are worth every penny. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif No true fan of the me262 should be w/o them.

HB

PS, If you're interested, I have a spare copy of Me262 Volume One. I've been thinking of putting it up on Ebay, but it you're interested, let me know.

Nug01
02-28-2005, 09:55 AM
For a first hand account:

Stormbird : Flying Through Fire As a Luftwaffe Ground-Attack Pilot and Me 262 Ace (Hardcover, 2000)
Author: Hermann Buchner

ISBN: 1902109007

Bierhund
02-28-2005, 02:22 PM
Another fact to consider is that Hitler (and thus Goering) were obsessed with bombing the enemy, staying on the offensive even while Germany was being attacked. So in the beginning the Me-262 was forced to carry bombs, taking it away from the use it was designed for. Finally, Adolf Galland assembled a small Geschwader of Me-262s and took on the allied bombers. Their performance was outstanding, racking up great numbers of kills, but the war had already been lost by then.

Another interesting read for Luftwaffe (and indeed all WWII aviation) enthusiasts is the Luftwaffe War Diaries by Cajus Bekker. It takes you through the whole war from the perspective of the Luftwaffe, and I found it extremely well written. True, the Me-262 makes a late entrance in the book as it did in the war, but I did learn a lot about it. Such as this interesting fact:

The Me-262 prototype was originally fitted with conventional (tail-dragging) gear. During testing, the test pilots found that this configuration made take-off tricky. Besides the Me-262's long nose obscuring the runway, the low position of the tail and the configuration of the engines meant that the air passing over the tail was insufficient to lift it. To get around this problem and get the bird off the ground, test pilots found that at a precise moment they could tap the brakes to raise the tail. Finally, Messerschmitt gave in and switched over to a tricycle landing gear, which in German minds didn't belong on a fighter.

darkhorizon11
02-28-2005, 02:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Skalgrim:
The american has overrating from 4, the german only 2 , after historian opinion



that means most american ace are not ace,

and hartmann had make 60 kill one month, which american ace can that match

at italy had even american overrating from 6, had oleg say

thar means all american ace / 4 is more right

and italy even /6 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

wtf?

Slick750
02-28-2005, 07:56 PM
My non-historian opinion is...that guy sounds like an A-hole

wayno7777
02-28-2005, 09:41 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bierhund:
Another interesting read for Luftwaffe (and indeed all WWII aviation) enthusiasts is the Luftwaffe War Diaries by Cajus Bekker.QUOTE]

That's one I had and can't find. I read it while in high school in the mid '70's.