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View Full Version : I may have opened a can of worms on the Saitek forum for the X-52



Mysticpuma2003
02-02-2005, 09:24 AM
http://www.saitekforum.com/showthread.php?p=31090#post31090

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adlabs6
02-02-2005, 09:30 AM
Can't see it. Could you quote it here instead?

Slechtvalk
02-02-2005, 10:32 AM
Which stick where you using before the x52? x45?

Just curious.
I got also got the x52 and no deadzone.

Heavy_Weather
02-02-2005, 10:45 AM
im going to be needing a new stick before too long, my X45 is starting to have some play in the stick, almost as much as an inch. I was thinking about getting the X52, is this not a good stick from those of you whose used it so far?

Taylortony
02-02-2005, 11:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heavy_Weather:
im going to be needing a new stick before too long, my X45 is starting to have some play in the stick, almost as much as an inch. I was thinking about getting the X52, is this not a good stick from those of you whose used it so far? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I fixed mine and removed all the play in it in one fine swoop http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Reborn X45 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif NO sloppiness or play now, its allllllll gone http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif 3 years old and reborn..... sigh.... its on par with my Cougar........... Ahh the TT MK1 mod works a treat http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Doc_Hollydayz
02-02-2005, 03:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Taylortony:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heavy_Weather:
im going to be needing a new stick before too long, my X45 is starting to have some play in the stick, almost as much as an inch. I was thinking about getting the X52, is this not a good stick from those of you whose used it so far? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I fixed mine and removed all the play in it in one fine swoop http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Reborn X45 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif NO sloppiness or play now, its allllllll gone http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif 3 years old and reborn..... sigh.... its on par with my Cougar........... Ahh the TT MK1 mod works a treat http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just what is this mod that fixes the play in the stick? Dont be shy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Taylortony
02-02-2005, 04:11 PM
Ok as said my stick is just shy of 3 years old and the little lip the centering cup sits on had cracked, I therefore removed it and machined a section of plastic stock up at work that we use for making extraction punches etc..
This was made to be a snug fit in the top of the stick and was manufactured to the same internal dimension of the original lip but with a tiny chamfer on it... but i increased the height by a few thou to allow for loss of spring tension.

This was then cut through to allow me to flex it past the shaft and onto the base... i had to trim a little off the cut to get a tight fit, so the cut isn't up to my normal standards. This thing is such a tight fit into the top of the stick it does not move and actually allows the centering cup a greater surface area to act upon, One of the benefits is the slack in the stick is about the same as my Cougar now and as the stock i used is probably PTFE based it is a lot smoother in motion than it ever was........

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/il2_skinners_guides/guest/Joystick_mod.jpg

lbhskier37
02-02-2005, 05:00 PM
Mine has tons of play after 2 years, not just their but where the handle attaches to the shaft. Makes it very imprecise in the middle. All is well though I have a Cougar on the way and will probably do some mods to that to make it perfect. I was going to go with CH stuff because its supposed to last forever, but IMHO their throttle is **** and needs some rotarys. Also can't stand the super light feel of the stick.

Taylortony
02-02-2005, 05:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lbhskier37:
Mine has tons of play after 2 years, not just their but where the handle attaches to the shaft. Makes it very imprecise in the middle. All is well though I have a Cougar on the way and will probably do some mods to that to make it perfect. I was going to go with CH stuff because its supposed to last forever, but IMHO their throttle is **** and needs some rotarys. Also can't stand the super light feel of the stick. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


you see that picture of the mod i did to my X45... see the thing poking out from behind it... thats a Cougar HOTAS.... Its also linked to a set of Elite pedals and they both add up to the worlds first joystick shaped paper weight and rudder pedal shaped dust collector set up.......... I bought them nearly brand new with no wear in em and Have used it once...............IT just sits there and when i build up enough interest i will box em back up and chuck em up in the loft............. My X45 is far superior to it, might not me metal but hey Dinkie make toy cars made from higher grade metal than Thrustmaster use......... oh and the software for programming it, well DOS is more modern than the stuff the stick comes with..................... but thats just my opinion, i would say one thing though the stick is bigger in the hand and on the Cougar i cant reach all the switches where as i have no prob with the x45 which was supposed to be bad.

georgeo76
02-02-2005, 06:25 PM
Sry to hear you don't like your stick mysticpuma. The hardware dead zone has been in hot contention since the stick was released. Some ppl hate it, others (like me) don't. I would recommend that you return your stick for a replacement before you give up on it.

I returned mine for an unrelated 'mouse drift' problem, and the second stick I got was 100% superior to the first one, not just w/ the 'mouse drift' deal, but the dead zone seemed much less and the whole range of motion just seemed more intuitive.

I'd also like to add that neither stick ever had what I would consider a 'huge' dead zone. 2'' is obviously unacceptable, maybe you got a dud?

Of course, the '52 is a huge adjustment. Essp if your used to the '45, but after a small time, I can fly just as well as I ever could.

rummyrum
02-02-2005, 06:34 PM
Tony what is it you dont like about the cougar? I have had mine for roughly 2 years now. Prior to that I had an x-45 and during those 2 years I went through 3 of them. I liked the throttle but the stick was a piece of engineering ****! If they didnt go away from that cup spring lip contraption with the x52 then I see the same problems occurring with it. What was this topic about? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

EURO_Snoopy
02-02-2005, 06:49 PM
Tony, have you considered putting your cougar on ebay? There's one going for 175 at the mo.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31215&item=5162009657&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

nearmiss
02-02-2005, 08:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mysticpuma2003:
http://www.saitekforum.com/showthread.php?p=31090#post31090

(You may need to register to view it) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That Saitek support dude told you what to do with it.

Take it back to the store...

Don't get ahead of me here. If support says something like that it usually means there something wrong with the stick. My experience with manufacturers is: they'll tell you to take something back as a last resort.

If he said that to me, I'd copy the thread to paper and take it back.

--------------

I'm looking to buy a new stick myself. The X-52 looked like a good option, but I've been hanging to see if the issues were pretty well worked out first.

One thing sure...you read'em the riot act with your prose. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Mysticpuma2003
02-03-2005, 03:28 AM
Ok my initial post was Quote"

I've been a user of Saitek sticks over the years but have to say I am so disappointed with the X-52, that I actually think it has been released in a faulty condition.

I can't understand how a manufacturer of so many quality products, has decided that the X-52 can be released on the market with a deadzone so large that you can count how long it takes to make the plane you are controlling, move on the screen.

I bought my X-52 with great anticipation, plugged it in and fired up Pacific Fighters. After setting my controls with the SST programming software I was up and running.

To fine tune the controls I started a DF map offline and chased a few of the enemy down.

I line up on the bandits 6 and let a few bullets go, he breaks left, I break left.......................then my plane turns, quickly I try and line up with him, rocking the stick up and down across the 'deadzone' to try and get a small movement....he breaks right, I move the stick right..................my plane turns........I've lost him! In three seconds of dogfighting the x-52 proves it worth....that is.....worthless.

I mean how can Saitek have decided that the deadzone on this stick was accurate? It's virtually unplayable.

Ok it must be me I thought. I went into the control panel and incrementally set various deadzone properties along with in-game joystick properties, all to no avail. If I adjust the software deadzones so they aren't as large it means that as I move the stick through it's hardware deadzone, as soon as I hit the software active part, the plane starts twitching and stalling all over the place. Now the large deadzone may be useful on a 747 in FS2002/4 or where you can shoot a missile from 2 km in Lock-on, but try lining up a shot on a WW2 fighter's six o'clock from 300m and you end up trying to compensate for the deadzone by rocking the stick through the large throw until it 'bites', by which time the one your following has had way too much time to out manouvre you and he's away and free.

Basically if you change the deadzones in the control panel, the stick still has about a 2 inch swing from left to right before anything happens, and when it does hit the software avtive area the movements become hugeley exaggerated, making accurate close-combat impossible.

I pay extra cash per month to get a 2mb connection, this is so I have a competative ping online. However due to bad design, I now have hardware induced 'lag' thanks to this useless hardware deadzone......I mean what were they thinking?

Anyway my question is this.....I believe that this flight-stick has been released on the market with a design fault, making the product according to trading standards "Not fit for the purpose", so Saitek, how do I get my money back from the shop who will say that the stick is not faulty, yet it makes Pacific Fighters virtually useless."

Saitek Support Richard Neville said " Hi,

If you are finding that the X52 has too large a centre deadzone or isn't responsive enough for you then try the following:

Go into the Properties for the stick in Game Controllers in Control Panel and click the Deadzone tab at the top. Now, instead of adjusting the central sliders for the affected axes (which are probably as small as you can get them anyway) try moving the sliders at the outside of each axis inwards slightly. This reduces the overall range of the stick, meaning that you don't have to move it as far to achieve full deflection; this can help improve the responsiveness of the stick"

Which I already tried in my original post!

He then said quote "I did read the first post but you didn't specifically mention whether you'd tried adjusting the outer sliders so I had to mention it to check whether you had. The size of the deadzone seems to fully inhabit the very definition of "subjective" though - some people don't find it a problem, whilst some do. For those that do there are numerous suggestions for adjusting the response of the stick here on the forum, both in the Control Panel and in-game - if none of those help you then please return it to the store."

Read this reply to my post which states it's a firmware problem, which will be rectified in future releases.....but not for all of us who have already started the 'beta' testing!

Quote" Don't get confused between firmware and hardware - some of you seem to be thinking of it in a purely physical basis where you can move the sensors or shift them in some way and it will change the deadzone that is there; this is not the case.

Firmware is, in laymans terms, a chip in the stick which does the job of understanding the info that movements on the stick produces and then sending them on to the PC in a format it can understand. In the firmware on the first batch of X52s there is a deadzone set on the X and Y axis and this setting can not be changed because the firmware can not be written to.

As production continues on the X52 and we improve the processes of its manufacture then we anticipate being able to reduce this deadzone."

My final reply to this has been Quote"

OK Richard you said "

Firmware is, in laymans terms, a chip in the stick which does the job of understanding the info that movements on the stick produces and then sending them on to the PC in a format it can understand. In the firmware on the first batch of X52s there is a deadzone set on the X and Y axis and this setting can not be changed because the firmware can not be written to.

As production continues on the X52 and we improve the processes of its manufacture then we anticipate being able to reduce this deadzone."


Now I would suggest that as a consumer who has paid 83.00 for my new Saitek X-52 stick, that I never chose to be a beta tester for your hardware. Surely, as you can see by scanning these threads about the deadzone on the X-52 stick, there is a major problem here with the sticks firmware. I don't mean a minor gripe here, I'm talking about a huge problem when it comes to controlling fine movements on the stick, as there is no control available around the centre of the stick.

You say that if I'm not happy I should return my stick to the shop I bought it from.....and say what? You readily admit that the stick has been released with a deadzone in the firmware....so the stick is not faulty, if I return it I have no rights to a refund because the shop can only replace or refund faulty goods.

What this leaves me with is a stick that I cannot use for Pacific Fighters of CFS3, because at close shooting distance I have to 'waggle' the stick forwards and backwards to engage the firmware deadzone, which is ridiculous and impossible to accurately judge at fast closing speeds, so when I consider how accurate my Saiborg Gold was I can't believe your company released this product onto the market in it's present firmware setup.

What chance is there in the future of Saitek recalling the X-52 and upgrading the firmware chip for all those loyal customers, which I am (at the moment) who have supported Saitek over the years?

I can only see this as being beneficial for community relations considering that the product has been released in a virtually unusable configuration!

I'd like if possible for you to answer the questions I have tendered in order, if possible, Thankyou, Neil."

So at the moment he has said return it to the store, but I now have to wait to see what excuse I can use because as far is it goes, it looks like the product isn't faulty, just unusable...I'll keep you informed!

Slechtvalk
02-03-2005, 03:32 AM
but it's strange that allot got no (deadzone) problem at all and some got a huge deadzone, doesn't make sense.

Maybe it's a software bug, only happening to users which switched from the x45 to the x52 but this is a big guess ofcourse.

WB_Outlaw
02-03-2005, 05:31 AM
If the store you bought the stick from only replaces/refunds faulty products, I'd shop somewhere else. If that was my attitude I wouldn't have any customers at all.

-Outlaw.

Mysticpuma2003
02-03-2005, 06:21 AM
Or maybe Slechtvalk they found out about the firmware bug during production and rather than recalling the first part of the batch, they just modified the later units, so that those who buy the X-52 now have the improved deadzone, and those who bought earlier are pretty well up the creek without a joystick.

IAFS_Painter
02-03-2005, 06:39 AM
Saitek's returns policy used to be over-generous ... and probably still is.

If the tech-support guy said take it back to the store - then take his advice.

Heavy_Weather
02-03-2005, 07:14 AM
thx Taylor, i'll have to have a look at that when i get home.

lbhskier37
02-03-2005, 07:49 AM
My main gripe with the saitek design is with that cup spring, the tension actually seems to decrease as you get farther out in the travel. Also, although their return policy is very generous, their driver development is very slow. Took forever after Hyperthreading was out to get a driver from them that didn't crash my system.

nearmiss
02-03-2005, 09:57 AM
Who cares if it's unstable. That's Saitek's worry. Box the stick up, spit on it and take it back.

Since when is necessary to waste time and energy on a defective product?

Heck, when I buy anything electronic or computer I keep the box, stape the ticket to the box and keep it until the warranty is up. The influx of junk products from China makes this a must do...

Also, watch rebates carefully. You'll rarely get one from a chinese company without some work on your part.

SlickStick
02-03-2005, 10:17 AM
As there are also a few X45 owners like myself in this thread, and given that Taylortony reworked his, can someone recommend the proper lubricant or rework process that I can apply to the base of the stick cup that contacts the ring in the base (the ring Taylortony replaced)?

Mine has started to squeak during stick travel and it's annoying the h*e*l*l out of me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Taylortony
02-03-2005, 11:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
As there are also a few X45 owners like myself in this thread, and given that Taylortony reworked his, can someone recommend the proper lubricant or rework process that I can apply to the base of the stick cup that contacts the ring in the base (the ring Taylortony replaced)?

Mine has started to squeak during stick travel and it's annoying the h*e*l*l out of me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DO NOT USE ANY OIL OR LIQUID LUBRICANT IT CAN ATTACK AND EMBRITTLE THE PLASTIC.

Get a candle or wax crayon run that round the underside of the cup then wipe any traces of it off.............. job done remember dont leave great lumps underneath it..you just want a little on then remove it with a cloth

Taylortony
02-03-2005, 11:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heavy_Weather:
thx Taylor, i'll have to have a look at that when i get home. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
On mine i removed the lip because it was cracked, on yours you could leave it on and put a similar packer around the outside of it and a few thou higher if that makes sense.....I actually beta tested the idea with 5 or sic..6 caps off stella bottles to see if it would work, they moved round all over but i found the idea was sound......... and it was a shame to waste the stella http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Taylortony
02-03-2005, 11:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rummyrum:
Tony what is it you dont like about the cougar? I have had mine for roughly 2 years now. Prior to that I had an x-45 and during those 2 years I went through 3 of them. I liked the throttle but the stick was a piece of engineering ****! If they didnt go away from that cup spring lip contraption with the x52 then I see the same problems occurring with it. What was this topic about? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be honest i dont know, I found the buttons did not fall to hand very comfortably and were stiff to operate, the software is a complete and utter retrograde step programming wise compared to the likes of the saitek stuff where you just assign commands to the pretty picture.

I did intitally buy it for use with Lock On, but that in its own way failed to impress and after a couple of goes I never went back to it and therefore the stick was relegated to dust collector and my trust X45 moved aft on the desk to replace it.

Maybe if I had persevered I would have grown to like it, but the poor software that they claim others attempt to copy...Not!! was a megga let down and something that needs to be replaced, also the replacable heads..... (we are still waiting for one.) Maybe i will let it go like suggested to a good home that will cherish it, but I am a bit of a hoarder like this and hate to let stuff go once i have it....... I normally just chuck it in the loft.

It was the one Stick I drooled after and was the bees knees at the top of the tree, but on reflection was a dissapointment.... I know the stiffness will go out of the switches etc, I know it is repairable to the 10th degree, but reading the users website, it appears it needs to be, due to poor use of materials.. I even purchased a set of Thrustmaster Elite pedals too, but I prefer the X45 rocker and as the desk is an awkward shape they never get used either. Those though i might at somepoint make out of metal as I can use the parts as a template and they are simple in design.

I did toy with pulling my X45 apart at one time and machining all the parts up out of Aerospace quality Aluminum then modifying a couple of helicopter control columns I had and building my own..... but time etc seems short, so I donated the columns to go into a Scout helicopter someone is rebuilding down south for fundraising for the Air Ambulance service.

SlickStick
02-03-2005, 04:20 PM
Thanks Taylortony!!! Much obliged! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif