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mariuszj1939
07-13-2006, 04:08 AM
I hope it might be interested for people addicted to WWII history.

Everytime we would like to start career it's 1st of Sept '39. That day is well known but do you know place where everything began ... Westerplatte
... at 04:47, WWII kicked off when a German Panzer ship, supposedly in Polish waters on a goodwill visit, fired on Polish troops stationed on this peninsula. In spite of facing odds of over 20-1, and numbering just 182 men, the Polish garrison held their own until September 7. The bravery of these soldiers was recognised by the German general (who allowed Major Sucharski to keep his sword with him in prison) and by Hitler (who consequently visited Westerplatte to inspect the scene that had cost him so many men. Polish survivors of the defence of Westerplatte even found themselves being saluted by their German counterparts as they were marched into captivity. Today the scattering of shelled bunkers and burned out ruins make for a poignant walk, and a museum is housed in one of the surviving barracks. An ugly, monolithic monument pays tribute to the heroic defence, and the surrounding green areas afford great views of the Bay of Gda┼"×sk and the city's shipyards. Major Sucharski died in Naples, 1946, and his ashes were eventually laid to rest in Westerplatte in 1971. The Schleswig-Holstein (built in the Gdansk shipyards) was sunk in the Bay of Gdynia in December 1944. Its wreck was raised a few years later and towed to Russia, where its location now appears a mystery. Two shells from the ship now prop up the entrance to the museum...

some present and old view of Westerplatte :

http://www.silentwall.com/WesterplatteI.html
http://www.mhmg.gda.pl/westerplatte_obrazy.htm

Celeon999
07-13-2006, 04:43 AM
Actually the military operations even started already one day before that. They were secret so there are only very few historical informations avaible.

Known is :

Commando units consisting of about 100 men arrived in Poland hidden in cargo trains in the night of the August 31, a thursday by the way.

They mostly conducted recon missions but were also cutting telephone lines ,sabotaged railways and brought weapons to german paramilitary groups and secret service agents in Poland.


The SS also operated with their own men along the entire german/polish border on that night.

Their goals were not military ones but political.

The most known operation was "Operation Konserve" (canned goods) which was the name of a staged raid on the german radio station Gleiwitz (Radiostacja Gliwicka in polish) that had the goal to create a picture of polish aggression against germany that was then used to justify the invasion.

The original sound file of the message that was broadcasted is avaible. I will try to find it.


Here are the informations about the Gleiwitz incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident)

Celeon999
07-13-2006, 05:07 AM
Ah yes. The famous football player of the german national team Lukas Podolski "Prince Poldi" was born in Gleiwitz/Gliwice http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/8969/22397908285bj.jpg

mariuszj1939
07-13-2006, 05:12 AM
Thanks Celeon,

I heard about Gliwice incident - even I saw film about it some years ago.
I should mention "real" War beginning - not "pre-actions".

mariuszj1939
07-13-2006, 05:24 AM
Originally posted by Celeon999:
Ah yes. The famous football player of the german national team Lukas Podolski "Prince Poldi" was born in Gleiwitz/Gliwice http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/8969/22397908285bj.jpg

and ... he as the only one in German team is not singing German anthem !

Celeon999
07-13-2006, 07:32 AM
Yep thats true ive noticed that several times during the cup.

Although this is common for players who werent born in the country they play for , Miroslav Klose (born with the name Kloze and later renamed) , also born in Oppeln/Opole in poland does sing the anthem at every game. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/4114/041452737670002pu.jpg

mariuszj1939
07-13-2006, 07:47 AM
Yes - Klose is singing German anthem.
Both are communicating during the match in Polish language except game Germany-Poland !
( http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Bucketlung
07-13-2006, 08:00 AM
So WWII officially started on a Friday? That's nasty. At least Dec 7th, 1941 was a Sunday so the troops had half of a weekend in.

I hope you don't mind if I ask a few questions in this thread. I haven't been to Germany since reunification and it is hard to get a read on things from afar.

How are the relations between Germany and Poland today with Germany back as one?

How about relations in the east between Poland and Belarus and the Ukraine?

After WWII were Poland's borders established to mostly everybody's satisfaction? Who established the borders after WWII since the Soviets controlled that area, by that I mean was it by international agreement or did Stalin draw the map?

I have a June 2005 National Geographic map and it shows a small wedge of land between Poland and Lithuania containing Kaliningrad as being separate and in small print it says Russia. What is this about?

Celeon999
07-13-2006, 11:59 AM
Yes - Klose is singing German anthem.
Both are communicating during the match in Polish language except game Germany-Poland


Yes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It wouldnt be very wise. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif




So WWII officially started on a Friday? That's nasty. At least Dec 7th, 1941 was a Sunday so the troops had half of a weekend in.

I hope you don't mind if I ask a few questions in this thread. I haven't been to Germany since reunification and it is hard to get a read on things from afar.

How are the relations between Germany and Poland today with Germany back as one?

How about relations in the east between Poland and Belarus and the Ukraine?

After WWII were Poland's borders established to mostly everybody's satisfaction? Who established the borders after WWII since the Soviets controlled that area, by that I mean was it by international agreement or did Stalin draw the map?

I have a June 2005 National Geographic map and it shows a small wedge of land between Poland and Lithuania containing Kaliningrad as being separate and in small print it says Russia. What is this about?

Yep a Friday. Screwed the whole weekend up.

Well its a bit complex with the border and i dont know all too much about that topic.

I believe the border was established in agreement between the GDR (East germany) and Poland but drawn mostly by Stalin.

West germany did not accept the border until the reunification. At least not officialy.

I believe that Poland was the first country that rejected the idea of a german reunification as the topic was discussed for the first time.

I think this had mainly something to do with Poland worrying about west germanys denial to officialy recognize Polands west border.

The UK also rejected a german reunification very strongly but for other reasons while the USA was the first supporter of the idea for geopolitical reasons.

With the negotiations going on the former chancellor Helmut Kohl agreed that the united germany would officialy recognize the german/polish border like it was and is. (The acceptance of the border by the GDR would had been nothing worth anymore after it ceased to exist)

After that and with some additional urging from the soviet union Poland accepted the reunification and establishment of diplomatic relations.


Kaliningrad and the land around it are a russian enclave.

The city Kaliningrad was the capital of East Prussia and named K├┬Ânigsberg until 1946. (CeleonÔ┬┤s family had some members living there)

The city was nearly totally destroyed by heavy fighting with the red army in 1945.

After breakdown of the soviet union it became part of the russian federation.

You find informations about it here on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad)

cpt_Alex2006
07-13-2006, 12:59 PM
Didnt realise we object to reunification, did we put up much of a moan? (uk)

I have a number of Poles working at our place and they are not to fond of the Germans.

I cant judge anyone for their own beliefs because everyone on the ground in ww2 had a hard time from someone, but its been a long time and few people alive are still around today.

Bucketlung
07-13-2006, 01:09 PM
I like geography and I love maps but there are some areas I always have trouble with like Sudetenland, Pomerania, Prussia, East Indies and West Indies to name a few.

On another National Geographic map of Europe they had written this. "Though large in territory, 18th century Poland fell victim to its weak organization and strategic location. Under the direction of Russia's Catherine the Great, Poland was divided among Prussia, Russia and Austria, at first only in part, but entirely by 1795. The nation did not reemerge as a political entity until after WWI."

That explains a lot. I guess I need to dig up a WWI history book and a book on Poland.

My mother got a video produced by North Dakota State University about German Russians. The video was made because they estimate about 30% of the people in North Dakota are from these German Russians. I had heard about German Russians but didn't know their story. Unfortunately the video didn't go into a lot of historical depth but this is what I remember.

They were Germans who were invited to settle in Russia by Catherine the Great in the 1700's. Then in the late 1800's and early 1900's about 1 in 4 emigrated to the U.S. They were rather unusual because they dressed like Russians and had some Russian customs but were still very much German. They were also unusual because they were extremely loyal to their culture but that loyalty didn't extend to the land. I don't know if they were originally from a particular group in Germany.

Then of course all hell broke loose in Russia and you also had a pro-slavic movement in Russia so those that hadn't emigrated to the U.S. were decimated. They estimated over a million were wiped out.

Celeon999
07-13-2006, 01:19 PM
Didnt realise we object to reunification, did we put up much of a moan? (uk)

Well more than Poland http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But dont ask me who your prime minister was at that time. No idea. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

hueywolf123
07-13-2006, 09:14 PM
Thatcher, let's hope there are no more like her. (Although our Howard is a little jerk, but that is my personal opinion).

Celeon999
07-14-2006, 11:58 AM
Well i had no luck with finding the Gleiwitz radio message sound file.

Ive heard it plenty of times in docus.

But ive found some interesting infos.

The entire prepared message was about 4 minutes long but because of technical problems with the radio station only the first 3 sentences were broadcasted and the rest couldnt be heard anymore.

Broadcasted was :


Attention ! Attention ! Here is radio Gleiwitz.

The radio station is in polish hands now. The hour of our freedom has come !

The operation took only a few minutes. The body of the dead man was left at the scene and several shots were fired into the walls and doors to let everything look like a firefight had happened there.

mariuszj1939
07-17-2006, 01:49 AM
Originally posted by Bucketlung:

How are the relations between Germany and Poland today with Germany back as one?

How about relations in the east between Poland and Belarus and the Ukraine?

After WWII were Poland's borders established to mostly everybody's satisfaction? Who established the borders after WWII since the Soviets controlled that area, by that I mean was it by international agreement or did Stalin draw the map?

I have a June 2005 National Geographic map and it shows a small wedge of land between Poland and Lithuania containing Kaliningrad as being separate and in small print it says Russia. What is this about?

Bucketlung - sorry I didn't answer before - whole weekend I spent with my family at Baltic seaside.

Just after reunification at beginning of '90 there were a lot of worries especially about borders and behaviour of East Germans. Many times Polish tourists were attacked in GDR territory.
Time changed situation and we have a lot of German tourists and shoppers here (at my favourite supermarket at weekend you can find ca 30-50 % Germans!). I don't see any bad reaction of our people. They visit our coast and we travel for instance to German Zoo (with Polish inscriptions).
Somebody likes them somebody hates depends on education, place of living, family's history.

Our relation to Ukraine is now good.
We had some historical problems not settled from WWII. Now it's over however old people like my grandmother (from Lvov region) still remembering murders and then escape from home to present Poland. We like Belarus people - their situation is terrible. They are like last post-soviet enclave in Europe. Nothing changed - one leader - work and live depends on Your loyalty.

Main borders after WWII were agreed between Stalin and Rosevelt. Churchill was against especially present western border of Poland. We lost much more territory in the east comparing to received land in the west/north. Displaces of nations (Polish, German etc.) were agreed at the same time (except displace of German and Hungarian people from Czech Rep. - that was internal President Benes decrees approved later in Potsdam)
http://www.polishresistance-ak.org/23%20Article.htm

Some people can say something else therefore that was only my point of view.(- Sorry for my English I couldn't learn it at preliminary and secondary school - only Russian !)

mariuszj1939
09-01-2008, 07:34 AM
Today is 69 years after first fire in WWII !
Except some bombing of small Polish cities and irregular operations on border beg. of WWII
was in Westerplatte (Gdansk) where Schlezwig-Holstein opened fire against Polish garnizon.
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/65/shleswigholsteinnk9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
View of Westerplatte just before WWII (island on the top right side)
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/1300/westerplatebr5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=2C7uc4wkh_A

There is a decision to produce new movie "Westerplatte" ready for 1st Sept. 2009 (costs EUR 4 mln).
Allan Starski is resp. for scenography (he got Oscar - Schindler's list)
The last movie from 1967 was v.good but b-w :
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=-Iqu5XVvQ-s

Celeon999
09-01-2008, 08:15 AM
Here are some other interesting pics.

The remains of the polish barracks on the Westerplatte are a memorial today.

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6356/westerplattekoszary1il5.jpg

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/4734/westerplattekoszary2vw6.jpg



Ive found some interesting descriptions about the battle.


The attack was not carried out by regular troops but was in fact the first commando operation of ww2.

The soldiers were from the MSK - Marinestro▀truppkompanie (A secret naval infantry special forces unit) consisting out of 4 officers ,one doctor and 225 soldiers.

In the following days they also occupied the city of Gdynia (german Gotenhafen) and the Hel peninsula that was blown up and turned into a island by polish forces during the battle.

The same unit also participated in smaller cloak and dagger operations during the spanish civil war and the annexion of Czechoslovakia.

For instance they raided and blew up a republican anti-Franco radio station on the spanish island of Ibiza.


After the capitulation on 7. september, the german officers saluted the polish officers as they went into captivity.

The polish commander Major Sucharski was given his sabre back and allowed to carry it during the time of captivity.

mariuszj1939
09-02-2008, 01:13 PM
see where Schleswig-Holstein was located on 1st of Sept. 1939 (she was later on destroyed in Gdynia by ally planes - 1944)

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/3681/45716416yz0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
for somebody who never heard about that place present view + more info
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westerplatte

Acc. to latest info crew of Westerplatte had 205 Polish soldiers.

Celeon999
09-03-2008, 03:50 AM
Wikipedia has some photos of the Schleswig-Holstein


Firing at the Westerplatte

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b3/Schleswig_Holstein_ostrzeliwuje_Westerplatte_39_09 _01_b.jpg


Officers inspecting damage recieved from duel with polish artillery on the Hel *****ula

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/65/Schlezwig_after_skirmish_with_Hel.jpg


Firing on polish postions in the city of Gdynia from Gdansk/Danzig harbour

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/00/Schleswig-Holstein_fires_at_Gdynia_1939.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Schleswig_Holstein_firing_Gdynia_13.09.1939.jpg

mariuszj1939
09-03-2008, 11:39 AM
Thanks for pictures Celeon,

Have you heard about other battle of Sept. 1939 comparible to Westerplatte ?
Battle of Wizna - 42 200 German soldiers against 720 Polish soldiers http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

quote
It is alleged that Heinz Guderian, in an attempt to end the Polish resistance, threatened the Polish commander that he would shoot the POWs if the remaining forces did not surrender. (No captives were shot.) Captain Władysław Raginis then ordered his men to abandon the bunker and committed suicide by throwing himself on a grenade.
unquote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Wizna

mariuszj1939
09-07-2008, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by mariuszj1939:
Thanks for pictures Celeon,

Have you heard about other battle of Sept. 1939 comparible to Westerplatte ?
Battle of Wizna - 42 200 German soldiers against 720 Polish soldiers http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

quote
It is alleged that Heinz Guderian, in an attempt to end the Polish resistance, threatened the Polish commander that he would shoot the POWs if the remaining forces did not surrender. (No captives were shot.) Captain Władysław Raginis then ordered his men to abandon the bunker and committed suicide by throwing himself on a grenade.
unquote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Wizna

I've found this song of Swedish metal band "Sabaton" 40-1 and ... it's about a.m. battle
(Polish text - song's subtitles + some notes about war/battle)
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=KBwwFsKTJGs&feature=PlayL...5DCEC5CA00B9&index=8 (http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=KBwwFsKTJGs&feature=PlayList&p=DDF45DCEC5CA00B9&index=8)

Celeon999
09-07-2008, 02:34 PM
Battle of Wizna - 42 200 German soldiers against 720 Polish soldiers


Thats unfair. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif