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mynameisroland
12-30-2004, 08:53 PM
Which aircraft do you allied P51 flyers find the toughest to deal with.

In this sim most of the action is down low - below 6000m which puts your plane at a disadvantage against the Fw 190 D , Bf109 G10/ K4 and also the Fw190 A9 in terms of Speed and also acceleration (using man prop pitch on A9)

On non realistic servers the La7 would also rank as a superior fighter to the Mustang down low.

When I enconter a Mustang at equal E state or inferior E state I can out climb it or out run it in a Dora and the turn advantage is the only real slight adv the Mustang has. My favourite targets are Mustangs and P38's the Jug is too tough. I know that in reality they are out of there element down low but thats the way the game seems to be played.

What are your thoughts on this, how would you down a Dora that has the same E state as you aside from getting lucky?

regards

roland

FatBoyHK
12-30-2004, 10:11 PM
this is my thought after one month of online flying. If I have the advantage I fear nothing, unless they are flying as a team and know I am coming. If they are good and setup a trap for me, I will zoom back and disengage, otherwise I will do no more than one BnZ, or 90 degrees of TnB, then I must disengage.

If I am at the disadvantage, I fear 190 more. Against 109, I can outrun them in most cases. Even against late war model, which I may not outrun them, I have full confidence of my high speed handling. I can keep him at bay for some considerable time, or even try a reverse if I take some risk.

For 190. I better pray I can outrun them. My turn rate is just a little bit better then him, and if he is already on my six, I can't outturn him before I am smoked. High Speed escape maneouvres don't help too, as 190 is just as good in this realm. To sum up all, I think I fear Ta152 the most.....If this monster is on my six I can just pray, hope some buddies can spot us......

p1ngu666
12-30-2004, 10:53 PM
zero 5b works well for me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Lukki
12-31-2004, 03:12 AM
Whaaat?? The whole beauty of P51 is that most, if not all, planes are slower than you are! I've defeated 2 G6s by just outrunning and then turning at a decisive point and those .50s kill a liquid cooled in no time.

P51 is uber. There is one problem though, for an energy fighter it breaks at speed way too easily. I lose my wing at speeds barely over 700. The 109 is much stronger and it can go like 750 safely (max speed in the pilots manual too). Must be the way how 109 was designed around that center firewall(IIRC?) or something. IMO excellent design that plane, they should have made a high speed sequel for the 109.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

With P51, altitude and speed should always be high. It's just not meant for low speeds. Any crappy 109, heck, an Emil is going to kick *** if you fly it low and slow... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

horseback
12-31-2004, 11:48 AM
The "breaking at high speed" issue is not a RL issue-more 109s broke up at high speeds than Mustangs (without the help of a .50 cal enema). It's strictly a matter of the sim design team's prejudice. US military aircraft were almost universally overengineered compared to European & Japanese designs, and the Pony was no exception, but it was not as big & strong as the P-38 or P-47, and it's rep in this regard has suffered as a result.

Since US tactical doctrine called for making the enemy try to dive away (and LW doctrine called for pilots in trouble to dive away from the enemy-hey, worked well against Spits & YaKs), lots of P-51s were dived repeatedly in combat & training, and some were no doubt overstressed in ways beyond the technology of the time to detect. Certainly, there were isolated instances where some lost wings, but it was not endemic to the type, and it didn't happen very often. If it had, there would have been a lot more official notice, and a record of changed practices, like that of draining the fuselage tank before the drop tanks on long range missions, and not filling the fuselage tank on short or medium range flights. I doubt that any contemporary foreign fighters would have a better survival rate after being subjected to the same repeated stresses.

This is not unlike the P-40's 'poor maneuverability' rep, due to its' constant comparison to the Zero. It was certainly better than the 109 in this respect, especially when properly flown, and some on these boards were very upset to find this out, going into an extended state of denial before doing a little research & coming to the light.

Oleg and his team appear to depend more heavily on Central and Eastern European sources, and unfortunately this means that there is almost an inevitable amount of antiAmerican prejudice, particularly from specifically Soviet sources. The Soviets may have obtained a few examples of the P-51D from China to go with the 10 Mustang Mk Is supplied by the RAF (no doubt in a well-used condition), but it seems unlikely that the Russians ever received a factory fresh example (and the Nationalist Chinese were notoriously inept in the care and feeding of hi-tech Lend-Lease equipment in WWII). Wartime German examples were by necessity somewhat worn (having been shot or forced down), and 'official' evaluations had to meet increasingly neurotic political requirements.

Simply put, with the exception of the P-39 or Buffalo, US aircraft in this sim are unlikely to meet the 'book' performance specifications, and even less likely to conform to pilots' wartime descriptions of relative strengths and weaknesses.

cheers

horseback

carguy_
12-31-2004, 11:59 AM
LOL if now US planes are pork die to prejudices I would like to see them perform historically by your definition,horsebackhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

MEGILE
12-31-2004, 12:09 PM
Whether planes are moddelled realistically or not is not the question.
What we have IN GAME is.

The plane with the altitude and speed advantage can win the fight, regardless of plane type, in a late war Western theatre dogfight. This applies for FW-190s, P-38s, P-47s, P51s, and BF-109s and Spitfires.

At low alt, the BF-109K4 certainly outperforms the P-51. It can utilize its amazing climb rate to get above the Mustang and come down on him.
Above 25,000 however, this changes, and the Mustang comfortably outperforms the BF-109K4.
That said, the plane with the initial advantage will probably win... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If the allies want to kick axis ar$e on dogfight maps, all they have to do is stay above 25,000FT and let the axis come up. It is realy that simple. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Atomic_Marten
12-31-2004, 12:43 PM
I just love one thing with P51: high speed. No matter low alt high alt. As long as you're on high speed you are in advantage over all LW planes IMO.

I have several ocassions where I was chased by Bf109, on low alt but high speed ~600kmh and over. They were on my dead 6, and just as he start closing in on about 0.40-0.50 and firing, I just pulled hard to the left or right -> there is no way that the Bf109 driver can follow that on that speeds. If he is even closer I pull up hard - he can't follow that also (most of the times I black out for a moment by I escape from Me109). H"ck, Bf109 can't follow any manoeuver executed by P51 on high speed. Few a/c's can.. so if one say that P51 is good airplane he is correct http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Heavy_Weather
12-31-2004, 12:44 PM
Lukki said it all, must stay high in this aircraft, be patient and choose your targets wisely. single out one target and dont jump it if theres anyone else around, you know the drill, as soon as you give chase to one the wingman will follow, once he's on your 6 you might as well go ahead and bail cause its hard to shake any other aircraft off your 6 while flying a mustang.

Atomic_Marten
12-31-2004, 12:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heavy_Weather:
Lukki said it all, must stay high in this aircraft, be patient and choose your targets wisely. single out one target and dont jump it if theres anyone else around, you know the drill, as soon as you give chase to one the wingman will follow, once he's on your 6 you might as well go ahead and bail cause its hard to shake any other aircraft off your 6 while flying a mustang. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are right. These few cases when I shake enemy fighter from my a$$ in P51 was pretty much their mistake, 'cos they did not left enough space from me and them, and thus enebling me to trick them.

But what I really want to say that I found hard to shake *any* a/c once when he's on my 6, as long as he drive and aim from it good. In most of the cases you are just good as dead regardless of plane you are in..

LStarosta
12-31-2004, 01:17 PM
I've had the pleasure of being outclimbed and outsped by a Ta152 online. I was desperately trying to get to 12k in my Mustang (as an experiment) and I was constantly in a stall at about 11k. Meanwhile a fellow in a Ta152 was perched comfortably at 12k+ zooming past me, making a joke out of me. If anything, the Ta152 is the king of high altitude flight.

Atomic_Marten
12-31-2004, 01:28 PM
LStarosta you're quite right. I have reached almost 13,000m in Ta152.(12,600m I know for certain, but higher..http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif).

Also, I assure you that it is no pleasure of driving Tank that high, but I suppose it is easier than driving P47 or Mustang on that extreme alts.(since I was chased by TBolts, I haven't any major problems to outclimb 'em visibly -- they were AI tho).

horseback
12-31-2004, 01:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carguy_:
LOL if now US planes are pork die to prejudices I would like to see them perform historically by your definition,horsebackhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mustangs simply didn't break up at those speeds in RL, carguy. There'd be a heck of a lot less of them around today if they did. 700kph is less than 440 mph (The Mustang's top speed at altitude). Any US fighter of the period losing a wing at that speed without 20mm assistance is BS.

This is the same as the old "P-40 exploding in a dive" issue with the original Forgotten Battles, the P-47's roll issues, the P-38's torque & gunfire shake (we won't even go into it's maneuverability), and the whole .50 cal effectiveness on any plane but the Airacobra controversy.

People make mistakes, but there's a pattern here. Oleg and his team appear to believe that US fighters couldn't possibly have been able to exceed Soviet or German aircraft performance in the ways that history demonstrates that they did. They certainly seem to have ignored English-language sources for their flight models on more than one occasion, and the FMs reflect that. Check the Pacific Fighters forum for the Wildcat's FM vs the Zero. They ought to know better.

It's pattern. They've rarely come close to the actual US aircraft performance on the first few tries without being reminded (repeatedly) that the US market is providing them with a big chunk of their profits unless that aircraft was one they flew and liked (the P-39), or flew against and respected (the Buffalo).

cheers

horseback

clint-ruin
12-31-2004, 01:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horseback:
and the whole .50 cal effectiveness on any plane but the Airacobra controversy.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pardon?

horseback
12-31-2004, 02:33 PM
Personal spin, clint. It seemed to me that the two .50s on the Airacobra did more damage than the 6 or 8 x .50 armament on other US-built fighters, especially at the height of the .50 cal controversy. I shot down a lot more 109s and 190s with the Airacobra's .50 cals than with the 37mm in my offline campaigns.

cheers

horseback

carguy_
12-31-2004, 02:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horseback:
Mustangs simply didn't break up at those speeds in RL, carguy. There'd be a heck of a lot less of them around today if they did. 700kph is less than 440 mph (The Mustang's top speed at altitude). Any US fighter of the period losing a wing at that speed without 20mm assistance is BS. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At first I`m little confused because I really don`t think you`re implying P51 break up at those speeds flying without exceeding 6G.But if you do then I made some tests.

Speeds at P51 break up:
B:910kph
C:925kph
D5NT:945kph
D20NA:930kph

Compared to Me109:
G6Early:860kph
G6Late:905kph
G6/AS:915kph
G10:860kph
G14:870kph
K4:910kph

So you see every Mustang ingame breaks above 900kph.AFAIK only FW190 can beat that.
If you mean P51 breaks when turning,I did manage to pull 6G and at speeds from 730kph the wing broke off all variants.Same 6G break area for all planes.
As to at what G turn at those speeds did P51 break I have no idea,I leave it to Oleg.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>and the whole .50 cal effectiveness on any plane but the Airacobra controversy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this issue is solved.Try a test.Take a P51 with a 140m convergence and shoot Corsair at this range.I did it 5 times and every single time .50 cal hit the plane`s engine causing instant fire.No more than 1sec well aimed burst FROM DEAD SIX is enough.
Besides that I hit the Corsair in the fuselage and wings.The same test I performed with order:
SpitMKIII double Hispano only - 2sec burst torn it in half
La5FN double ShVak - 2sec burst torned wing off
FW190A6 quadruple MG151/20 plus two 12.7mmMG - I counted 40 hits in the fuelselage area finally putting it down with a PK - no wing,no tail,no engine fire nothing torn off

What I noticed is the damage caused by hits(from other tested cannons) with two converged .50 salvos aimed in wings of the Corsair was the same as
one burst of double Hispano
two bursts of double ShVak
10 overall hits scored by 4xMG151+2x12.7MG

I don`t have the track because I did the test for myself two hours ago before I saw your reply,horseback.

You say that Oleg somewhat denies the role and real aspects of US planes,the P51 in paarticular.

I tell you how I see it.
Mustang is
-one of the fastest prop planes in the game
-one of the deadliest planes ingame


If you ask me objectively effectiveness of .50cal is "optimistic",subjectively Oleg does realise the role of US market hence he makes 12 .50cal hits more effective than 10 MG151/20 hits.IMO Oleg did what he didn`t want to do just to please US plane fans(he said it himself that .50cal is unrealistic).50cal is a perfect example of the influence you guys have on Oleg.He never fixed the MG151/20 or MK108 but he fixed .50cal after Gibbage`s thread which was about 3months.

The best way is to fly axis everytime you face US birds.You will change your mind,horseback.

To me your above posts seem completely irrational and uncalled for. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

clint-ruin
12-31-2004, 02:45 PM
Um, Oleg has indeed changed the Mk108 to give less dispersion and more power than he believes it had in reality. His post on this is even archived in the Oleg horses mouth FAQ thing linked in the Ask Oleg thread in ORR.

I am really sick of people pushing the my-side-is-so-hard-done-by line by now. Lock them all on an island, Battle Royale (http://www.mandiapple.com/snowblood/battleroyale.htm) style.

VW-IceFire
12-31-2004, 02:56 PM
Most challenging opponent to a Mustang...in a straight up dogfight server with all planes enabled (minus jets) are going to be the fantasy 109Z (which is the bane of all others) or the La-7. The Ki-84 I find is a deadly opponent too but the Mustang is generally better and nicer to fly.

Seriously, the Mustang is one of the best planes in the game bar none. But it can't be tossed casually into any situation either. Its a bit of a thinking plane...once you achieve your advantage and positioning to the target you are pretty deadly. The Mustang is so far one of the few planes I can fairly easily force a reversal against pursuers. Its thanks to speed and exceptional handling.

JG7_Rall
12-31-2004, 03:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
I've had the pleasure of being outclimbed and outsped by a Ta152 online. I was desperately trying to get to 12k in my Mustang (as an experiment) and I was constantly in a stall at about 11k. Meanwhile a fellow in a Ta152 was perched comfortably at 12k+ zooming past me, making a joke out of me. If anything, the Ta152 is the king of high altitude flight. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was there. Was quite funny really.

horseback
12-31-2004, 04:17 PM
Carguy, the 700kph reference was in response to Lukki's statement about losing a wing at about that speed. Admittedly, I went off about that, but the Mustang's ruggedness is not properly modelled. I've seen nothing to indicate that even a Focke-Wulf should be stronger in the dive or turn. Hard turns to 6 Gs would have been physically hard to make in RL because of the physical force required to move the stick was beyond most men smart enough to learn to fly.

The .50 cal reference was to the amount of time spent carping that was necessary to get the dispersion and destructive power to something in reasonable proportion to the Soviet UB 12.7mm MGs. I did not cite it as a current problem, but as one that took a lot of work to correct and illustrated my point about a pattern of behavior. The P-47's roll rate was improved too, but it took about a year to get it fixed.

I think my point stands. The Mustang was structurally fragile only by comparison to other US fighters of the period, like the Jug, the Lightning, and the Hellcat. Few, if any, Axis or Allied designs were comparable in this regard if we compare apples to apples.

cheers

horseback

Potatodip
12-31-2004, 06:10 PM
Im a P-51 virtual pilot, and my foe is the D9...i think this is mostly cause my mind locks up everytime i se one lol (bad rep on that plane http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

Normaly even below 6000m i only get in trouble if i forget speed, this normaly happens when i have zommed down on a slower plane 8 times and missed and then decide to go on hes six...then im dead meat......but another oponant that i sometimes have probs with is the 84 with a good pilot (not a T&B¨r but a ZX&B`r) the axis guys who have found out that the 84 actualy is a pretty good Z&B`r are pretty deadly.....

But in all most fights is won by the pilot who makes the less mistakes....and unfortently for me......im kind of an mistake maker lol.....


Happy new year to all

FatBoyHK
12-31-2004, 06:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
The Mustang is so far one of the few planes I can fairly easily force a reversal against pursuers. Its thanks to speed and exceptional handling. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am eager to learn from you, do you have any track file to show me how it can be done? What I am capable now, at most, is to shake someone off my tail, but seem I still haven't learn the tricks needed to force a reversal.

whitetornado_1
12-31-2004, 07:22 PM
Humm.... A captured Spitfire in German
hands would be the most dangerous for a pony http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

JG5_UnKle
01-01-2005, 05:00 AM
If you can't manage to succeed in the P-51 just give up. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If the elevator authority wasn't so overmodelled you wouldn't lose wings in the P-51.

And comparing the .50's to the Soviet 12.7mm guns? Well they have been overmodelled since the very beginning, in real life they couldn't sustain those rates of fire without jamming. The ROF is one reason the 12.7mm guns are so deadly - lot's of rounds on target and an overpowered round with a very flat trajectory to boot.

clint-ruin
01-01-2005, 06:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG5_UnKle:
The ROF is one reason the 12.7mm guns are so deadly - lot's of rounds on target and an overpowered round with a very flat trajectory to boot. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same for the ShKAS as well. 1800rpm [or 2800!] is fantastically high and should be very bad news for aircraft on the receiving end - but it'll also melt the gun if it's kept up too long. It's supposed to give a high volume of fire and a high chance of a hit in a short burst, but it's not something that came "for free" in the real world - always a tradeoff involved. Still, no gun overheats full stop in PF so the same could be said of almost any high ROF gun in the game.

The other thing that I think really helps out the way gunnery is modelled generally in the game. Kinetic damage is very effective from rear aspect shots and the UBS has that in spades, and Incendiary style rounds are the ones that will typically cause fuel tank fires first off [more than other rounds at least]. UB API rounds pack twice as much incendiary material as the .50 cal rounds we have and they fire them quite frequently given the guns scaled ROF.

JG5_UnKle
01-01-2005, 07:09 AM
Yes the unsynced (sp?) versions had extreme ROF!!