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IFly_1968
09-18-2007, 12:19 PM
I keep seeing that this plane is fubar and that plane is fubar and this is not the way it was in real life. Yes I believe that some small stuff may not be right with some of the modeling, but like I said it is small and mainly insignificant. So with this in mind, let's take a look at "REAL LIFE" and re-examine what we are talking about.

WWII Air Warfare will never be replicated in any computer simulator program. How can you simulate war when you have a re-fly button at your disposal?

We push our simulated planes beyond what most aviators did during WWII mainly because of the fact that we can hit re-fly.

We get into impossible dog fights with each other that never really happened on the large scale that we see in the servers that we choose to visit online.

Back in "Real Life", WWII Aviators would not engage into combat 100% of the time as we do. They would pick and choose the fights they had to battle so that they could greatly increase their survival.

Even during bomber escorts, the fighters escorts would not attack unless they had a clear advantage (At Least the smart ones). 90% of pilots that were shot down never new they were prey to the victor because they had no idea that they were there.

If a group of planes or even one plane is buzzed by an attacker that missed his mark, they would shart there pants and get out of dodge if they could not get a clear advantage to engage in battle. They would regroup and come back to battle at an advantage or simply not come back at all.

Even still, if a pilot sees the enemy first, they would sometimes not engage and they both went their separate ways. Why, he did not have the advantage.

So how does this compare to what we do? We get buzzed and we go after what just buzzed us. Do we have the advantage? Most of the time no, but we engage anyways and the outcome is, "I have just been shot down. My plane is all wrong."

Actually what happened is the tactic was all wrong, plain and simple.

Even if we see an enemy first, and we are really not at an advantage to start the attack, we will attack and now we have just given ourselves up to let him know we are there and then, boom, he counter reacts and shoots you down. Again, that was the wrong tactic.

We will go into battle without having any kind of wingman and then as we attack a foe, his buddies come along and blast us out of the sky. Do you really think a WWII Aviator would really go after an enemy all by himself in real life?

So when we look at the aircraft and the modeling of this sim and start complaining that it does not live up to its real life counter part, think about what you are really portraying. Is it the plane not living up to its real life counterpart or is it the pilot not living up to its real life counterpart.

slipBall
09-18-2007, 12:25 PM
Never forget (not you) that this is a game....a very enjoyable game. I say just have fun with it, while we wait for SOW http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

MB_Avro_UK
09-18-2007, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by IFly_1968:
I keep seeing that this plane is fubar and that plane is fubar and this is not the way it was in real life. Yes I believe that some small stuff may not be right with some of the modeling, but like I said it is small and mainly insignificant. So with this in mind, let's take a look at "REAL LIFE" and re-examine what we are talking about.
WWII Air Warfare will never be replicated in any computer simulator program. How can you simulate war when you have a re-fly button at your disposal? We push our simulated planes beyond what most aviators did during WWII mainly because of the fact that we can hit re-fly. We get into impossible dog fights with each other that never really happened on the large scale that we see in the servers that we choose to visit online. Back in "Real Life", WWII Aviators would not engage into combat 100% of the time as we do. They would pick and choose the fights they had to battle so that they could greatly increase their survival. Even during bomber escorts, the fighters escorts would not attack unless they had a clear advantage (At Least the smart ones). 90% of pilots that were shot down never new they were prey to the victor because they had no idea that they were there. If a group of planes or even one plane is buzzed by an attacker that missed his mark, they would shart there pants and get out of dodge if they could not get a clear advantage to engage in battle. They would regroup and come back to battle at an advantage or simply not come back at all. Even still, if a pilot sees the enemy first, they would sometimes not engage and they both went their separate ways. Why, he did not have the advantage.
So how does this compare to what we do? We get buzzed and we go after what just buzzed us. Do we have the advantage? Most of the time no, but we engage anyways and the outcome is, "I have just been shot down. My plane is all wrong." Actually what happened is the tactic was all wrong, plain and simple. Even if we see an enemy first, and we are really not at an advantage to start the attack, we will attack and now we have just given ourselves up to let him know we are there and then, boom, he counter reacts and shoots you down. Again, that was the wrong tactic. We will go into battle without having any kind of wingman and then as we attack a foe, his buddies come along and blast us out of the sky. Do you really think a WWII Aviator would really go after an enemy all by himself in real life?
So when we look at the aircraft and the modeling of this sim and start complaining that it does not live up to its real life counter part, think about what you are really portraying. Is it the plane not living up to its real life counterpart or is it the pilot not living up to its real life counterpart.

Many valid points here.It would be interesting to find out just how many as a percentage of all players are unhappy with the FMs.

I accept the FMs as they are.

Who was it who said, 'It's the pilot not the plane that counts'?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

MEGILE
09-18-2007, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:


Who was it who said, 'It's the pilot not the plane that counts'?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Some arm-chair quaterback Hobo called Oleg maddox. The guy is clueless.

Xiolablu3
09-18-2007, 02:41 PM
Dont worry about the whiners, Ifly, they are extremely loud in places like hyperlobby.

If their plane isnt pwning all then they will always blame the game/sim, never their flight skills.

The loud ones are always the ones we notice, but its the silent majority that love this game and appreciate its accuracy.

There are people on hyperlobby chat for instance who have along grudge against Maddox games because X plane doesnt pwn all others 'like is said on the history channel etc.

Forget them and fly mate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

okb001
09-18-2007, 02:46 PM
Word on the street is that 4.09 will automatically uninstall itself when your pilot get killed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

IFly_1968
09-18-2007, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by okb001:
Word on the street is that 4.09 will automatically uninstall itself when your pilot get killed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
Now that would be interesting

VW-IceFire
09-18-2007, 02:59 PM
That WOULD be interesting http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I still don't see very many people blaming themselves when they fail. Its always the plane. Its just easier that way http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VMF-214_HaVoK
09-18-2007, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:


Who was it who said, 'It's the pilot not the plane that counts'?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Some arm-chair quaterback Hobo called Oleg maddox. The guy is clueless. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya he probably never even flew a real plane. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

S!

stalkervision
09-18-2007, 03:33 PM
How can you simulate war when you have a re-fly button at your disposal? We push our simulated planes beyond what most aviators did during WWII mainly because of the fact that we can hit re-fly.

hook a pressure sensitive switch to your computer chair and stick a bomb under it which is triggered when you are killed in sim combat.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

or if you whine too much.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

hi_stik
09-18-2007, 03:44 PM
If this game were realistic, then both ends of every airfield would be littered with crashed planes, because engine failures on takeoff was a COMMON affliction, and could/would kill even the most experienced aviators.

K_Freddie
09-18-2007, 03:47 PM
When one has a lot of points to discuss..
Please seperate them in point/paragraph form so it's easier on the eye and brain.

Seeing a solid block of text is enough to drive one dilly, never mind reading it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

DKoor
09-18-2007, 03:53 PM
Wonder what another "dimension" looks like?!

Wonder no more!

You're at the right place, my dear reader.

IFly_1968
09-18-2007, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by K_Freddie:
When one has a lot of points to discuss..
Please seperate them in point/paragraph form so it's easier on the eye and brain.

Seeing a solid block of text is enough to drive one dilly, never mind reading it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sorry Sir, Done

triad773
09-18-2007, 04:34 PM
Its the best combat sim going for now so........ enjoy! I've struggled with my ideas of what it should be and what it is. There's enough similarity to reality to keep it interesting, if not controversial. There's been a number of real WWII pilots who've flown it and haven't been too vocal about the differences so it must be rather close. Sorry I cannot name one but those who haunt these environs know who they are.

Cheers

Triad

bigbossmalone
09-18-2007, 05:11 PM
IFly, agreed 100%. Good post.
Even better now you've remade it a la Freddie's advice. I'm also guilty of piling everything together sometimes.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif
BTW,your nick, does the year stand for your year of birth?
If so, that would put us at the same age.
I am proudly a product of the (late) 60's!
Seems I replaced Flower Power with Horse Power - much more entertaining!!
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Von_Rat
09-18-2007, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by IFly_1968:
I keep seeing that this plane is fubar and that plane is fubar and this is not the way it was in real life. Yes I believe that some small stuff may not be right with some of the modeling, but like I said it is small and mainly insignificant. So with this in mind, let's take a look at "REAL LIFE" and re-examine what we are talking about.

WWII Air Warfare will never be replicated in any computer simulator program. How can you simulate war when you have a re-fly button at your disposal?

We push our simulated planes beyond what most aviators did during WWII mainly because of the fact that we can hit re-fly.

We get into impossible dog fights with each other that never really happened on the large scale that we see in the servers that we choose to visit online.

Back in "Real Life", WWII Aviators would not engage into combat 100% of the time as we do. They would pick and choose the fights they had to battle so that they could greatly increase their survival.

Even during bomber escorts, the fighters escorts would not attack unless they had a clear advantage (At Least the smart ones). 90% of pilots that were shot down never new they were prey to the victor because they had no idea that they were there.

If a group of planes or even one plane is buzzed by an attacker that missed his mark, they would shart there pants and get out of dodge if they could not get a clear advantage to engage in battle. They would regroup and come back to battle at an advantage or simply not come back at all.

Even still, if a pilot sees the enemy first, they would sometimes not engage and they both went their separate ways. Why, he did not have the advantage.

So how does this compare to what we do? We get buzzed and we go after what just buzzed us. Do we have the advantage? Most of the time no, but we engage anyways and the outcome is, "I have just been shot down. My plane is all wrong."

Actually what happened is the tactic was all wrong, plain and simple.

Even if we see an enemy first, and we are really not at an advantage to start the attack, we will attack and now we have just given ourselves up to let him know we are there and then, boom, he counter reacts and shoots you down. Again, that was the wrong tactic.

We will go into battle without having any kind of wingman and then as we attack a foe, his buddies come along and blast us out of the sky. Do you really think a WWII Aviator would really go after an enemy all by himself in real life?

So when we look at the aircraft and the modeling of this sim and start complaining that it does not live up to its real life counter part, think about what you are really portraying. Is it the plane not living up to its real life counterpart or is it the pilot not living up to its real life counterpart.

you know not everyone flys like a idiot online.
some of us do, at least most of the time, try to fly in a realistic manner.
and yes some of these realistic flyers still have fm beefs, go figure.

is it just me, lately there seems to be more threads whining about whiners, then there are actually whine threads

willyvic
09-18-2007, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
...is it just me, lately there seems to be more threads whining about whiners, then there are actually whine threads

Actually, I see more threads re-hashing old issues and stating already stated opinions (hmm, might be the same thing, who knows).

I attribute it to the current influx of relatively new gamers. They post items they think are brand new ideas/thoughts, never figuring that maybe we have heard all the cr*p before.

Ah well, that is the nature of the virtual community I guess.

No diss to the OP intended.

WV

IFly_1968
09-18-2007, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by bigbossmalone:
IFly, agreed 100%. Good post.
Even better now you've remade it a la Freddie's advice. I'm also guilty of piling everything together sometimes.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif
BTW,your nick, does the year stand for your year of birth?
If so, that would put us at the same age.
I am proudly a product of the (late) 60's!
Seems I replaced Flower Power with Horse Power - much more entertaining!!
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Exactamundo sir. Good call.

IFly_1968
09-18-2007, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
you know not everyone flys like a idiot online.
some of us do, at least most of the time, try to fly in a realistic manner.
and yes some of these realistic flyers still have fm beefs, go figure.

is it just me, lately there seems to be more threads whining about whiners, then there are actually whine threads

And as I have said to you before Von_Rat, you are entitled to your opinion and nobody has the right to say otherwise. Also in retrospect, I am entitled to mine and I only call it as I see it. If you have beefs with flight models then so be it. Also in the beginning of my post I made mention that I think there are some things wrong also, however my thoughts are universally across the board. My intention of starting this post was to just try to get some folks to stop and think a little and maybe use some logic when it comes to aviation combat. Not to start a flame war. So I will just finish off by saying, if you do not agree with what I wrote then you don't. No problem with me. However, you do not need to come here to instigate anything.

carguy_
09-19-2007, 02:23 AM
100% agree.Mustang`s the best plane in the game, ppl dunno how to use it!

rnzoli
09-19-2007, 02:35 AM
Originally posted by IFly_1968:
How can you simulate war when you have a re-fly button at your disposal?
for example in such way, that inside the co-op missions, you don't have a refly button http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Honestly, i have ambigous feelings about your post, despite all your good intentions, the argumentation is shakey, based on forums hearsay (90% of ...) . The points you bring up are good ones, but far from complete (you forget that you cannot be smart in a war - you follow orders, even if those orders are obviously wrong).

My take on this is that I read from another clueless airmchair veteran that it was not the plane, nor the pilot which mattered. It was the opportunity above all. And then the pilot.And then then plane type.

Von_Rat
09-19-2007, 05:32 AM
Originally posted by IFly_1968:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
you know not everyone flys like a idiot online.
some of us do, at least most of the time, try to fly in a realistic manner.
and yes some of these realistic flyers still have fm beefs, go figure.

is it just me, lately there seems to be more threads whining about whiners, then there are actually whine threads

And as I have said to you before Von_Rat, you are entitled to your opinion and nobody has the right to say otherwise. Also in retrospect, I am entitled to mine and I only call it as I see it. If you have beefs with flight models then so be it. Also in the beginning of my post I made mention that I think there are some things wrong also, however my thoughts are universally across the board. My intention of starting this post was to just try to get some folks to stop and think a little and maybe use some logic when it comes to aviation combat. Not to start a flame war. So I will just finish off by saying, if you do not agree with what I wrote then you don't. No problem with me. However, you do not need to come here to instigate anything. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you call that instigating???
oh you'll know when i want to instigate anything.

Bearcat99
09-19-2007, 06:39 AM
Originally posted by IFly_1968:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
you know not everyone flys like a idiot online.
some of us do, at least most of the time, try to fly in a realistic manner.
and yes some of these realistic flyers still have fm beefs, go figure.

is it just me, lately there seems to be more threads whining about whiners, then there are actually whine threads

And as I have said to you before Von_Rat, you are entitled to your opinion and nobody has the right to say otherwise. Also in retrospect, I am entitled to mine and I only call it as I see it. If you have beefs with flight models then so be it. Also in the beginning of my post I made mention that I think there are some things wrong also, however my thoughts are universally across the board. My intention of starting this post was to just try to get some folks to stop and think a little and maybe use some logic when it comes to aviation combat. Not to start a flame war. So I will just finish off by saying, if you do not agree with what I wrote then you don't. No problem with me. However, you do not need to come here to instigate anything. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not everyone who complains about a particular FM is a "whiner" or a clueless "yank & banker" or someone who thinks that there is some kind of conspiracy to neuter some planes and render others unbeatable. Most of us certainly know that no matter how "realistic" any FM is in any sim.... and I think that most would agree that warts and all, this sim has the most realistic FMs of any of the other WWII sims that are currently available on the commercial market... it is NOT reality. I also think that most of us know that for the most part real world tactics are not used with the same diligence in this sim as they were in real life... primarily because this isn't real... it is just a simulation, with a refly button. The problem with your original post, although for the most part it is a good one is that it appears to insinuate that those who may have issues with any given aircraft are missing the point and just need to fly the plane better.

While it is certainly true in this sim.. that (and this is one of my favorite aspects of the sim.... it has no wall so to speak -a point you get to where you can game the game by doing the same mechanical motion everytime and it works like clockwork-) no matter how familiar you get with a certain plane you can always get better at it with practice... some of the issues that people have with the sim are legitimate...

Speaking solely for myself, none of the issues that concern me have prevented me from fully enjoying the sim and trying to deal better with what I have within the confines of what it is.... but they are still issues that would be nice to be addressed.


So how does this compare to what we do? We get buzzed and we go after what just buzzed us. Do we have the advantage? Most of the time no, but we engage anyways and the outcome is, "I have just been shot down. My plane is all wrong."
Actually what happened is the tactic was all wrong, plain and simple.


AS stated above.. this is not always the case and it is the insinuation though most likely unintentional that some of the folks with issues just don't know what they are doing that raises some eyebrows. I know that post count can sometimes mean squat.... but sometimes it can indicate a person's familiarity with this community and some of it's history.. Many of us have been around here dealing with this sim since the IL2 demo.... so when they see your 21 posts and reg date of July 07.. again.. not that in the bigger picture that means much.. for all any of us know you could have been simming since the very first combat sim came out.. or one of the old hats come back under a new handle... but we do look at that even if subconciously... and even if you are a brand spanking new member here it doesn't invalidate your original post or render any of your points less sound... but when they see that in the back of their minds they are saying "What does this guy know.... " , which again... in no way invalidates the gist of your original post... but as I said.. some of the issues are real.

Do I make sense? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

As for some of the other comments.... usually when I get shot down I did something wrong... but many times it has also been some of the issues that I have mentioned in other threads that I wont go into here that contributed to my virtual demise.

IFly_1968
09-19-2007, 07:52 AM
Sure you make sense. And if I insulted anyone on the board, then by all means it was un-intentional. Just trying to throw some logic into the mix of things.
Might just be best if I just move along and just keep playing this game like I have been and enjoying it since AEP release and probally will keep enjoying it for time to come.

Blood_Splat
09-19-2007, 08:06 AM
I keep seeing posts like this.

Breeze147
09-19-2007, 08:47 AM
I have the solution. Oleg should create a mod that, when you get shot down, your computer catches fire and you suffer agonizing, indescribable pain and mental panic and horror until finally you impact with Mother Earth and everything goes black. Forever.

Realistic enough?

IFly_1968
09-19-2007, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by Breeze147:
I have the solution. Oleg should create a mod that, when you get shot down, your computer catches fire and you suffer agonizing, indescribable pain and mental panic and horror until finally you impact with Mother Earth and everything goes black. Forever.

Realistic enough?

Sure, why don't you be the Beta tester for us and let us know how it goes. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
Sorry but I could not resist

Bearcat99
09-19-2007, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by IFly_1968:
Sure you make sense. And if I insulted anyone on the board, then by all means it was un-intentional. Just trying to throw some logic into the mix of things.
b]Might just be best if I just move along and just keep playing this game like I have been and enjoying it since AEP release[/b] and probally will keep enjoying it for time to come.

Naaahhhh don't do that... keep flying the sim... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif but dont dissappear... we need voices of reason... and if you havebeen lurking on the forums since AEP and are just now getting around to saying something... that means you have a great deal of patience Mr. Job... and we need more patient level headed people around here.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Von_Rat
09-19-2007, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by IFly_1968:
Sure you make sense. And if I insulted anyone on the board, then by all means it was un-intentional. Just trying to throw some logic into the mix of things.
Might just be best if I just move along and just keep playing this game like I have been and enjoying it since AEP release and probally will keep enjoying it for time to come.

my apologies if i came on to strong, i honestly wasnt trying to start anything. i was just voicing my opinion on the subject.

my last comment in my 1st post was just me kidding around.

huggy87
09-19-2007, 11:14 AM
The only common complaint that I have to agree with is for the pacific theatre, zeros v hellcats. The matchup just doesn't jive with the pilot accounts, at least as far as allied planes diving away is concerned.

In other respects I completely support the OPs original comments. In fact using my own example above, the hellcat was a terrific plane, but maybe not lightyears ahead of the zero as many of us would believe. Your average USN pilot was much better trained than your average Japanese pilot. Furthermore, the US generally used better well thought out teamwork tactics to bring down their opponents. The japanese fought like they were in hyperlobby. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif