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flakwagen
11-28-2005, 01:21 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/28/congressman.shouse.ap/index.html

Stories like this mystify me and make me sad. This guy led an idyllic life and he threw it all away for money. He was a patriotic war hero and a holder of high elected office. Now he's just another felon. What other stories do whe have about aces who went bad after their flying career? I suppose Goering was the most infamous and extreme example of an aviators life gone awry.

Flak

Ruy Horta
11-28-2005, 01:35 PM
I will make no comments on the admitted deeds, although I certainly don't think he stands alone when it comes to bribetaking, other misconduct and abuse of office, only that he got caught doing it...

But having seen the CNN video, I will have to say that I was moved by his words.

If he pays for his deeds and makes ammends, he's regained much of his former glory in my eyes.

I can only wish him luck!

Waldo.Pepper
11-28-2005, 01:37 PM
Sniff. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

p1ngu666
11-28-2005, 01:42 PM
ouch

p1ngu666
11-28-2005, 01:44 PM
i agree with horta

we all strive for money thinking its our saviour, its actully our destroyer.

jds1978
11-28-2005, 02:37 PM
after watching the History ChannelsGreatest Dogfights special i knew there was something i didn't like about Cunningham.

Bearcat99
11-28-2005, 02:51 PM
OH WELL!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Can you say P.A.C.s? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
Nothing but legal bribery if you ask me. He just cut out the middleman and got caught. Between this kind of stuff and the war it looks as if the Democrats will have a much easier time in 2008. Not that it will really matter much to the taxpaying citizen in the U.S. since regardless to party they all seem to be moving towards the same goal... and the middle class -or what's left of it- is taking the beating.

jds1978
11-28-2005, 03:07 PM
Can you say P.A.C.s?

No doubt, BC.
If they can find a way to get rid of PACs w/o stepping on the 1st Amendment, we will all be better off. Me thinks DC is addicted to the $, though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Sharpe26
11-28-2005, 03:27 PM
I wonder how much he'd make lecturing and stuff like that.

YoMommaBinladen
11-28-2005, 03:28 PM
Whoever said military heros and saints were one in the same crowd? In fact, there is a whole theory out there that is long standing that says war is best conducted by criminal types who are watched closely by those with moral character. Traditionally, this has been the way of war.

The truth be known... well, even that is bs because I can tell you from experience that it just isn't natural for human beings to kill each other regardless of what you see on the news. In my first firefight, I looked around and saw men with years of combat experience firing their weapons with their eyes closed. Tens of thousands of rounds flew out murdering nothing but trees! I was so terrified that I couldn't look at the people firing at me and see them as people and fire back. I imagined them to be targets... you know, just like on a firing range with a big, black bulls eye in the middle. I squeezed off four rounds under semi mode and in the end, on autopsy, they had four bodies with four slugs in the chest area, all from my weapon. So in the end, did that make me a felon for killing four boys? Did it make me a saint for saving the lives of my men? Or did it just make me human, doing the wide mix of things humans will do under a given situation?

In the end, hero worship ends up being a kind of idol worship due to the fact that they are humans and not God.

Sharpe26
11-28-2005, 03:37 PM
that reminds me of something I once saw.

it's a saying though And I might be misquoting it

" Gentle men sleep peacefully in their beds at night, knowing that rough men stand ready to do violent things at their behalf.

Enforcer572005
11-28-2005, 03:44 PM
wow...thats interesting. Good shooting. Keeping your head keeps your people alive.

As for Duke, i never considered him a blowhard..i think he was just honest about what was going on up there, and he is still a hero in my book. Indicting congressmen for taking bribes from govt contractors is like handing out speeding tickets at the Daytonal raceway....big deal. he has been targeted by the antimilitary types for years for his effective defence of the military and his hawkish stands.

I notice that Ramsey Clark and Jane Fonda havent been indicted for treason.....Fed prosecutors (as all of them) are only interested in harvesting political capital.

I hope some fed judge has the good sense to give him probation, but I doubt it.

BaldieJr
11-28-2005, 03:45 PM
You gotta spread that money around if you wanna stay in office.

I'm all for bent politicians as long as they're doing some good things with side-money (and paying taxes).

Udidtoo
11-28-2005, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by YoMommaBinladen:
Whoever said military heros and saints were one in the same crowd? In fact, there is a whole theory out there that is long standing that says war is best conducted by criminal types who are watched closely by those with moral character. Traditionally, this has been the way of war.

The truth be known... well, even that is bs because I can tell you from experience that it just isn't natural for human beings to kill each other regardless of what you see on the news. In my first firefight, I looked around and saw men with years of combat experience firing their weapons with their eyes closed. Tens of thousands of rounds flew out murdering nothing but trees! I was so terrified that I couldn't look at the people firing at me and see them as people and fire back. I imagined them to be targets... you know, just like on a firing range with a big, black bulls eye in the middle. I squeezed off four rounds under semi mode and in the end, on autopsy, they had four bodies with four slugs in the chest area, all from my weapon. So in the end, did that make me a felon for killing four boys? Did it make me a saint for saving the lives of my men? Or did it just make me human, doing the wide mix of things humans will do under a given situation?

In the end, hero worship ends up being a kind of idol worship due to the fact that they are humans and not God.

Cool story. Now tell them about the Russian Major you nabbed while pinching a loaf LB. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

YoMommaBinladen
11-28-2005, 03:53 PM
Excellent thought! I watched as the people of the U.S. demonized my oldest brother and the rest who served in Vietnam as "baby killers". I then watched after the first gulf war as we recycled them into mini-gods. I've watched as historians called WWII "the good war", a war where conservatively 300 million people died. I'm watching now as people are trying to demonize the soldiers now fighting and...

mostly, I just shake my head as some woman who lives in a 7,500 square foot house and drives a SUV calls herself a pacifist!

arcadeace
11-28-2005, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Enforcer572005:
wow...thats interesting. Good shooting. Keeping your head keeps your people alive.

As for Duke, i never considered him a blowhard..i think he was just honest about what was going on up there, and he is still a hero in my book. Indicting congressmen for taking bribes from govt contractors is like handing out speeding tickets at the Daytonal raceway....big deal. he has been targeted by the antimilitary types for years for his effective defence of the military and his hawkish stands.

I notice that Ramsey Clark and Jane Fonda havent been indicted for treason.....Fed prosecutors (as all of them) are only interested in harvesting political capital.

I hope some fed judge has the good sense to give him probation, but I doubt it.

i totally agree. There's little justice and a lot of agenda.

YoMommaBinladen
11-28-2005, 03:58 PM
Yeah, they gave me the bronze star for taking a dump! For anyone not completely bored with the story, I was on a patrol in the Philipines in 1978 and there were these giant trees that were so large and so old, that their root structure stuck up out of the ground and formed a lattice of roots that made for a nice perch to "do business" at. I finished my dump and lit a cigarette and walked around the other side of the tree to find about the most wanted Soviet operative at that time in that area of operation taking a dump on the other side of this tree that was about 20 feet in diameter across the trunk.

So basically, for dumping above and beyond the call of duty, I was awarded the bronze star!

MEGILE
11-28-2005, 03:58 PM
Moral of the story.. don't suck at taking bribes descretly.

YoMommaBinladen
11-28-2005, 04:29 PM
Still, the whole attitude of saying "just don't get caught" disturbs me. The Romans would take a man convicted of accepting bribes and tie him in a sack with a wild beast and throw the lot in the river! As long as it takes insane amounts of money to get elected in this country, we will have this sort of thing going on wholesale. We will have to modify the constitution to limit spending, but I think it is high time we did so. Think this sort of thing is limited to the U.S? Well, can we say "oil for food" boys and girls?

As far as the Jane Fonda thing goes, I find her not to be the devil some portray her as. Yes, her behavior was immature at best. If we prosecuted everyone who acted the part for treason, Congress would all be in jail... hey, not a bad idea now that I think about it!

This part deleted to reduce the cunsumption of whine around here.

I'd defend people right to say stupid things with my life and that goes for Jane and all the people living in 7,500 square foot houses, driving SUV's and calling themselves pacifists. This doesn't make me a sinner or a saint, but just another citizen of the U.S.

Udidtoo
11-28-2005, 04:34 PM
If your going to use me as an example old bean at least get it correct. I said we should have not been there to begin with. Can't recall ever telling anyone "cut and run" would be a good decision.

Its good to see nothings changed with you Lucky. You'll soon self destruct as usual and YoMomma will go the way as your last moniker and newcomers will be saying "Who??"

MEGILE
11-28-2005, 04:36 PM
Roman's also married their sisters, and worshipped sheep.

BaldieJr
11-28-2005, 04:50 PM
You have a roman nose

MEGILE
11-28-2005, 04:55 PM
I don't know what sucks more... your reply, or my Dyson.

http://www.technosexual.org/dyson.jpg


bagless for the win!

WOLFMondo
11-28-2005, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Enforcer572005:
I notice that Ramsey Clark and Jane Fonda havent been indicted for treason.....Fed prosecutors (as all of them) are only interested in harvesting political capital.


Speaking out against something you don't like isn't treason. God forbid you ever get into politics.

YoMommaBinladen
11-28-2005, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Udidtoo:
If your going to use me as an example old bean at least get it correct. I said we should have not been there to begin with. Can't recall ever telling anyone "cut and run" would be a good decision.

Its good to see nothings changed with you Lucky. You'll soon self destruct as usual and YoMomma will go the way as your last moniker and newcomers will be saying "Who??"


Gee, thanks for warm thought! I knew it! Lemme go edit out the truth of my post so it can be politically correct!

MEGILE
11-28-2005, 04:58 PM
Political debate inbound, ETA 5 mins.

BaldieJr
11-28-2005, 04:59 PM
Its purple and it sucks. Congrads on your gayest reply evar.

MEGILE
11-28-2005, 05:02 PM
baldie = ownzed.

Don't point that finger at me mister!

YoMommaBinladen
11-28-2005, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Megile:
Roman's also married their sisters, and worshipped sheep.


Yeah, they were great weren't they?!

MEGILE
11-28-2005, 05:03 PM
I dunno about that... my sister aint all that hot.

georgeo76
11-28-2005, 05:21 PM
you would think that duke was one of the good ones. But the only new news here is that he admitted to it. It's been known for a while that he was dirty.

I reject the ennui that says the system is corrupt and all politicians are liars. It's unpatriotic. We have a representative government and we get the politicians we deserve. There are two ways to love your country. You can love it like a three-year-old loves it's parents; something responsible for you. You can love it like a parent loves their three-year-old; Something you are responsible for.

Gwalker70
11-28-2005, 05:38 PM
I am not shocked at a government official taking bribes... we all know this goes on for the most part,,, (however it is our fualt since we allow it as the mass population) .. what I am shocked is that this man had so much glory and history..living through vietnam airwar .. becoming an ace... having all the status and perks.. having nice jobs after the war ect... plus the main thing---> belonging to the elite club of aviators that one must uphold the image of being the most honorable person one can be... not only is his name on the line but many others that have surrounded him... now whats Willie Driscoll suppose to do? Dukes backseater will now have to lower his head around for a few years till this blows over... see what I mean? i cant believe Duke didnt think of this.

on another note,,, the method that duke used is very common.. but they use boats instead.. much much more easy to sell "under the table" than homes .. although the returns are somewhat less.. many government types use boats instead of real estate

YoMommaBinladen
11-28-2005, 05:39 PM
georgeo, excellent post man! Anyone thinking we have a corrupt government at the base of things needs to tell me where the corruption of the following is at...

http://dodd.senate.gov/webmail/

http://domenici.senate.gov/

http://dorgan.senate.gov/

http://feinstein.senate.gov/

http://hatch.senate.gov/

http://inouye.senate.gov/

http://leahy.senate.gov/

http://lott.senate.gov/

http://lugar.senate.gov/

http://mccain.senate.gov/

http://rockefeller.senate.gov/

http://schumer.senate.gov/

http://specter.senate.gov/

http://warner.senate.gov/

just to name a few who have given years and years of service without any major theiving on their part.

I just wish they'd learn to worship sheep, that's all!

YoMommaBinladen
11-28-2005, 05:46 PM
Status of a fighter jock? Oh, you mean the years of low pay, 18 hour flights crammed into a small seat, moving your family every year to a new town, being marginalized by society until needed in time of crisis and then put on the firing line for so long that the second coming of Christ stands a better chance of arriving than you getting enough points to get out of a combat assignment and not get shot up with speed so you can fly mission 48 hours straight before a break?!

I think you have tried to elevate the role of fighter jock to some sort of mini-god status. You'd be let down less often if you worshiped sheep!

SkyChimp
11-28-2005, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by BaldieJr:
You have a roman nose

That means it's been in your sister. Or a sheep.

Gwalker70
11-28-2005, 05:54 PM
you are not getting my point... my point is that most people in high government are "born" into that line of work..they are groomed from the outstart of thier adult life... Duke was not one of these people... what is shocking to me is that there is a high correlation between Dukes type and being somewhat honest with thier position in government compared to the yuppie rats that are in 90% of the billets in Wash.... and that Duke went to the darkside

BaldieJr
11-28-2005, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by SkyChimp:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BaldieJr:
You have a roman nose

That means it's been in your sister. Or a sheep. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd follow Megiles lead and put my money on the sheep.

jds1978
11-28-2005, 06:19 PM
you are not getting my point... my point is that most people in high government are "born" into that line of work..they are groomed from the outstart of thier adult life... Duke was not one of these people... what is shocking to me is that there is a high correlation between Dukes type and being somewhat honest with thier position in government compared to the yuppie rats that are in 90% of the billets in Wash.... and that Duke went to the darkside

you know, i'm not so sure about that. from the little bit i've seen of "Duke" Cunningham (mostly from that Greatest Dogfights special on History Channel) he seemed to treat the airwar over vietnam like his own personal playground. by his own recollection, he made at least 2 nasty and near fatal mistakes that were born more out of arrogance and some deep simmering bigotry/superiority complex (he repeatedly refered to the NVA pilot as a "Gomer")than out of genuine miscalculation. seems to me like he took his BS attitude to Washington with him so he could play with the big-shots and make some dough in the meantime. why am i not surprised.

Now compare Cunningham's segment w/ "Bud" Anderson's. "Bud" seemed to be a complete pro, both responsible and reflective as to what his experiences over Europe in WW2 meant. "Duke", OTOH, seemed to be in the grips of a really good inside joke while recounting his brush with death in 1972 (1973?).

don't get me wrong...i'm appreciative of Cunningham's sacrifice and his willingness to put himself in harm's way...still there appears to be something defective about him. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

SeaFireLIV
11-28-2005, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
Speaking out against something you don't like isn't treason. God forbid you ever get into politics.

True. And let`s remember. At the end of the day, men are just men. Never look up so high to someone that they`ll one day disappoint you.

fordfan25
11-28-2005, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by flakwagen:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/28/congressman.shouse.ap/index.html

Stories like this mystify me and make me sad. This guy led an idyllic life and he threw it all away for money. He was a patriotic war hero and a holder of high elected office. Now he's just another felon. What other stories do whe have about aces who went bad after their flying career? I suppose Goering was the most infamous and extreme example of an aviators life gone awry.

Flak

biggst crooks in the world are polaticans,judges and cops.

Saunders1953
11-28-2005, 07:47 PM
Isn't anyone else appreciative of the fact that we have Baldie & Megile, and Udidtoo & Lucky Boy all in the same thread? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif I'm getting the popcorn and settling in....

fordfan25
11-28-2005, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by Megile:
I dunno about that... my sister aint all that hot.

your telln me..i had sleep with her http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif j/k http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

fordfan25
11-28-2005, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by Saunders1953:
Isn't anyone else appreciative of the fact that we have Baldie & Megile, and Udidtoo & Lucky Boy all in the same thread? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif I'm getting the popcorn and settling in....

lucky boy.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif were?

Saunders1953
11-28-2005, 09:43 PM
FF: Reread this thread closely.

Bearcat99
11-28-2005, 09:56 PM
The thing is.. that this guy war hero or not was an elected official taking bribes to carry out his duties.... His constituents certainly didnt have the same access to his "services". This has nothing to do with his wartimne duties.... actually AFAIC all war veterans of any side... unless they actually committed atrocities against unarmed civillians.. or unarmed otherwise non threatening military personell... are doing thier duty and it isnt my place as an armchair after the fact Johnny come lately to judge. Even if they are on the other side. Now sure, I think there are right sides and wrong sides to things.... but when it comes to second guessing things done in the heat of battle.... I wouldnt touch it. Of course I dont know how I would feel fully if I were on the recieving end of thier "duty doing" but that is neither here nor there. That is what we have here on in this world and I certainly wouldnt second guess any soldier doing his job.... but this is different. This guy sold his services that he was duly elected to cary out.. and IMO the PACs have just found a way to get around the law but basically they are doing the same thing..... this guy was too stupid to even play by the rules.... He should get what he deserves. This has nothing to do with his service in the military.

Enforcer572005
11-28-2005, 10:21 PM
its all pretty sad....

however, I have no problem wiht speaking out against the govt....god knows I do it ALOT, which has cost me severely.

But I think sitting on a 57mm AA gun and singing anti-US songs wiht the NVA guncrew, making radio broadcasts degrading American soldiers and urging them to turn on thier comrades, calling POWs war criminals on such broadcasts, and actively supporting the enemy in a shooting war against Americans, IS sure as h#ll treason.

Clark did the same thing basically when he went to Nvietnam. He also went to Iran to actively support the fanatics when they took our embassy, has openly supported Saddam, and is currently (according to one news report) in Iraq to help defend Saddam and ensure a "fair" trial. Where was he when countless people were being butchered without any due process by that guy?

Duke let himself and alot of others down, but it gripes me that he will probably be in prison while the aforementioned traitors suffer no penalties for THIER crimes, not to mention their double standards.

redfeathers1948
11-28-2005, 10:48 PM
John Glenn my hero in junior high became a Washington DC *****, its hard NOT to be a cynic.
Vigilance..cannot overstress that word

p1ngu666
11-28-2005, 10:52 PM
members of current american administration supported sadam too. think saddam got some nice gifts from various americans. key to a town/city, a fancy sword, and a carriage or something...

lots of countries did, actully us uk taxpayers funded saddam about 10quid each on arms. (he defaulted on payment, export ganrantee funds means companies still get paid by taxpayer)

similer happened in america iirec, and other nations

it does get chucked on national debt often.

nearly every politian is dodgy tbh

on a more serious note, megiles sister is actully a sheep http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

GR142-Pipper
11-29-2005, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by jds1978:
after watching the History ChannelsGreatest Dogfights special i knew there was something i didn't like about Cunningham. Gents, I knew Randy Cunningham personally as we were briefly in the same squadron. He was a good guy and a good aviator as his war records attests. Something went seriously wrong. To be honest, I'm absolutely stunned. He's the last guy in the world I would have EVER expected to hear this type of thing about. Eight-term congressman, an icon in Naval Aviation...all compromised by this. I'm really bummed about this as I'm afraid he'll become the Pete Rose of Naval Aviation.

GR142-Pipper

WTE_Ibis
11-29-2005, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by Megile:
Roman's also married their sisters, and worshipped sheep.
------------------------------

Megile I think you got that a$$ about face m8 I think they worshipped their sisters.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

GR142-Pipper
11-29-2005, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by jds1978:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">you are not getting my point... my point is that most people in high government are "born" into that line of work..they are groomed from the outstart of thier adult life... Duke was not one of these people... what is shocking to me is that there is a high correlation between Dukes type and being somewhat honest with thier position in government compared to the yuppie rats that are in 90% of the billets in Wash.... and that Duke went to the darkside

you know, i'm not so sure about that. from the little bit i've seen of "Duke" Cunningham (mostly from that Greatest Dogfights special on History Channel) he seemed to treat the airwar over vietnam like his own personal playground. by his own recollection, he made at least 2 nasty and near fatal mistakes that were born more out of arrogance and some deep simmering bigotry/superiority complex (he repeatedly refered to the NVA pilot as a "Gomer")than out of genuine miscalculation. seems to me like he took his BS attitude to Washington with him so he could play with the big-shots and make some dough in the meantime. why am i not surprised.

Now compare Cunningham's segment w/ "Bud" Anderson's. "Bud" seemed to be a complete pro, both responsible and reflective as to what his experiences over Europe in WW2 meant. "Duke", OTOH, seemed to be in the grips of a really good inside joke while recounting his brush with death in 1972 (1973?).

don't get me wrong...i'm appreciative of Cunningham's sacrifice and his willingness to put himself in harm's way...still there appears to be something defective about him. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Respectfully, you have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER what Randy Cunningham is all about. None. You don't know him so why are you willing to make disparaging comments by someone you know nothing about?

Regarding your "gomer" remark, it was very common to refer to North Vietnamese pilots as gomers. This isn't unique to Cunningham. It was a reference to the stupid looking flight helmets they wore (gomer hats), hence the name.

Randy shot down FIVE Migs, brother...none with Sparrows either (all with Sidewinders while heavily mixing it). He's the ONLY U.S. Naval Aviator to achieve ace status in the Viet Nam war. He got THREE in ONE day and after his fifth kill he and his RIO Willie Driscoll were hit by a SAM and forced to eject over the Tonkin Gulf. He's the real deal. After that he became an eight-term congressman from San Diego. He was well-liked and well respected and a real icon in Naval Aviation. This is truly an awful experience for everyone involved. I have no quarter for bribery or other criminal wrongdoing, especially by politicians. So I'd cut him no slack in that regard.

What I take issue with you about is your willingness to come to conclusions without any knowledge of the individual being discussed. It's not fair to Randy Cunningham (or anyone else for that matter) and it doesn't reflect well on you. Just think about that a little bit next time. You wouldn't appreciate it. I wouldn't either.

GR142-Pipper

-HH-Quazi
11-29-2005, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:

What I take issue with you about is your willingness to come to conclusions without any knowledge of the individual being discussed. It's not fair to Randy Cunningham (or anyone else for that matter) and it doesn't reflect well on you. Just think about that a little bit next time. You wouldn't appreciate it. I wouldn't either.

GR142-Pipper

Not only his, but everyone else that has done the same in this thread. Thank you for pointing this out. If anyone here can come to any conclusions about the man, it would be you, having served with him and at least knowing him somewhat. But I see that you choose not to do so, which is the right thing and commendable.

Pentallion
11-29-2005, 12:55 AM
I think he summed it up well enough himself.


The truth is -- I broke the law, concealed my conduct, and disgraced my high office.
end of story.

SirSpamsAlot1
11-29-2005, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by redfeathers1948:
John Glenn my hero in junior high became a Washington DC *****, its hard NOT to be a cynic.
Vigilance..cannot overstress that word

Hey wait a minute here! You wanna tell me what Felony or even misdemenour John Glenn has committed while serving in politics? Man oh man, you can't please anyone anymore! I think Mr. vigilance needs to take a paranoid pill!

Bear brings clarity to this issue by saying the simple truth and that is that no matter what they've done... and dare I say that goes as far as Timothy McVay... not sure if I spelled that last name correctly... but even him, the whole lot, you can't combine what they did in uniform with what they do as a civilian because it runs the spectrum of life itself. The simple truth is they are NOT saints, they are not evil, but human in the end and you'll get a wide variety of results, so you can't tie one to the next with any kind of expectation of results.

I voted for Jimmy Carter partly because he was once a submarine commander. You'd think that would make him capable of the hard nosed decisions. You remember what we got instead!

Ford, Luckyboy is best and busom buddy friends with Ududetoo and from what I understand, he now just logs on under Ududetoo in order to post because their minds are so alike and views are prefectly the same.

redfeathers1948
11-29-2005, 02:05 AM
Cunningham served ME the taxpayin lawabiden married family man schmuck! I did my time in the US Navy as a parachute rigger in Yankee Station same time he was doin his job. He got nothin commin!! Especially him.

redfeathers1948
11-29-2005, 02:50 AM
Hey wait a minute here! You wanna tell me what Felony or even misdemenour John Glenn has committed while serving in politics? Man oh man, you can't please anyone anymore! I think Mr. vigilance needs to take a paranoid pill!


OK This will be the last time I envolve myself with political question. I cant let this one slide.
Just some history concerning Glenn.
My determination of his integrity can be referenced by a study of the Linciln Savings and Loan scandal and subsequent investigation of the Keating five by the Senate Ethics Committee. Further I suggest a study of the Thompson-Glenn Government Affairs Committee Hearings of 1997. You know the one looking into the high level Chinese government financial involvement with the Democratic National Committee through Chinese operatives Mr. Jung (Johny) and Maria Hsia. I watched the hearings or rather the sham called hearings. John Glenn showed me his true colors then. Actualy it was unexpected and broke my heart cause I'm nothin if not a hero worshipper. Yea Vigilance is the keyword here you can take it or leave it but I know what it means to me.

SirSpamsAlot1
11-29-2005, 03:44 AM
As I respond Redfeather, please keep in mind that I think your response is excellent as far as it goes. I especially like the point you make about how you've done your tour as well, so what makes these jokers so entitled!

Still, if the best you can come up with on him is that he may have helped cover up some Captial hill fun, well, that hardly qualifies him for ***** status. Unless you've got a guilty verdict or no-lo plea someplace to point to, I'd say it's a matter of not liking his politics and NOT a moral issue having to do with character.

Bearcat99
11-29-2005, 04:36 AM
Originally posted by Enforcer572005:
its all pretty sad....
Duke let himself and alot of others down, but it gripes me that he will probably be in prison while the aforementioned traitors suffer no penalties for THIER crimes, not to mention their double standards.

What Cunningham did is not comparable to what the others you mentioned did. Not by a mile. Period. As far as where was Clark when SoD@mn Insane was doing his "I am THE MAN" schtick.... well for that matter where were all those brave heroic murderous "martyrs" who are now so valiantly fighting against the "infidels" of the west when SoD@mn was gassing the Kurds and had his two biological weapons of mass destruction Uday & Qusay running amock in the country.. ? They were no where to be seen.

What Cunningham did is more akin to a police officer taking bribes from drug dealers.. or at the very least the neighborhood bookies... either way it is a violation of trust and should be punished but is in no way shape or form comparable to what Clark and Fonda did. Keep in mind that Vietnam was an undeclared war. So technically.... they were what.. traitors of the police action. Viet Nam was botched up by the politicians from the jump. Like in most wars... the soldiers for the most part are the least culpable and the most vulnerable (next to the innocent civillians of course) when it comes to taking flak. No pun intended.

jds1978
11-29-2005, 07:01 AM
What Cunningham did is more akin to a police officer taking bribes from drug dealers.. or at the very least the neighborhood bookies...


i'm not so sure, BC. Cunningham played funny with DoD contracts and recieved favors/goods b/c of this. During wartime that make you a war-profiteer. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


quote:
Originally posted by jds1978:

quote:
you are not getting my point... my point is that most people in high government are "born" into that line of work..they are groomed from the outstart of thier adult life... Duke was not one of these people... what is shocking to me is that there is a high correlation between Dukes type and being somewhat honest with thier position in government compared to the yuppie rats that are in 90% of the billets in Wash.... and that Duke went to the darkside


you know, i'm not so sure about that. from the little bit i've seen of "Duke" Cunningham (mostly from that Greatest Dogfights special on History Channel) he seemed to treat the airwar over vietnam like his own personal playground. by his own recollection, he made at least 2 nasty and near fatal mistakes that were born more out of arrogance and some deep simmering bigotry/superiority complex (he repeatedly refered to the NVA pilot as a "Gomer")than out of genuine miscalculation. seems to me like he took his BS attitude to Washington with him so he could play with the big-shots and make some dough in the meantime. why am i not surprised.

Now compare Cunningham's segment w/ "Bud" Anderson's. "Bud" seemed to be a complete pro, both responsible and reflective as to what his experiences over Europe in WW2 meant. "Duke", OTOH, seemed to be in the grips of a really good inside joke while recounting his brush with death in 1972 (1973?).

don't get me wrong...i'm appreciative of Cunningham's sacrifice and his willingness to put himself in harm's way...still there appears to be something defective about him.
Respectfully, you have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER what Randy Cunningham is all about. None. You don't know him so why are you willing to make disparaging comments by someone you know nothing about?

Regarding your "gomer" remark, it was very common to refer to North Vietnamese pilots as gomers. This isn't unique to Cunningham. It was a reference to the stupid looking flight helmets they wore (gomer hats), hence the name.

Randy shot down FIVE Migs, brother...none with Sparrows either (all with Sidewinders while heavily mixing it). He's the ONLY U.S. Naval Aviator to achieve ace status in the Viet Nam war. He got THREE in ONE day and after his fifth kill he and his RIO Willie Driscoll were hit by a SAM and forced to eject over the Tonkin Gulf. He's the real deal. After that he became an eight-term congressman from San Diego. He was well-liked and well respected and a real icon in Naval Aviation. This is truly an awful experience for everyone involved. I have no quarter for bribery or other criminal wrongdoing, especially by politicians. So I'd cut him no slack in that regard.

What I take issue with you about is your willingness to come to conclusions without any knowledge of the individual being discussed. It's not fair to Randy Cunningham (or anyone else for that matter) and it doesn't reflect well on you. Just think about that a little bit next time. You wouldn't appreciate it. I wouldn't either.


Point taken, Pipper. It was grade "A" BS for me to critique Cunningham's experience in Vietnam. Accept my appology
Sometime i've got to remember that i fly a desk and people like him did the real thing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif Now, i've got to go work on not shooting my mouth off http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

WOLFMondo
11-29-2005, 07:02 AM
Originally posted by Enforcer572005:

Duke let himself and alot of others down, but it gripes me that he will probably be in prison while the aforementioned traitors suffer no penalties for THIER crimes, not to mention their double standards.

Thats freedom of speech and expression for you. Under your own consitution Jane Fonda said what she wanted and is protected by your own laws and precious constitution.

You can't go around wanting freedom of choice and freedom of speech until its something you don't want to hear or an opinion you disagree with. That defeats the point of it.

jds1978
11-29-2005, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by Enforcer572005:

Duke let himself and alot of others down, but it gripes me that he will probably be in prison while the aforementioned traitors suffer no penalties for THIER crimes, not to mention their double standards.

Quote: Wolfmondo
Thats freedom of speech and expression for you. Under your own consitution Jane Fonda said what she wanted and is protected by your own laws and precious constitution.

You can't go around wanting freedom of choice and freedom of speech until its something you don't want to hear or an opinion you disagree with. That defeats the point of it.


Exactly. This shouldn't be a debate about Fonda and her late 60's political views. Cunningham made 2.5 million dollars off of defense contracts while American kids are dying in Iraq/Afghanistan. That type of behavior puts you on a very short list.

WOLFMondo
11-29-2005, 08:00 AM
If your gonna quote me put my name there! :P http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

jds1978
11-29-2005, 09:43 AM
WOLFmondo: Fixed that little problem! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MEGILE
11-29-2005, 10:12 AM
If your gonna quote me put my name there! :P

roj that

WOLFMondo
11-29-2005, 10:17 AM
Going for 5000 posts in a day maggy? :P

jds1978
11-29-2005, 10:17 AM
quote:

If your gonna quote me put my name there! :P


roj that


OMG...did i screw up one of your quotes too! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

MEGILE
11-29-2005, 10:19 AM
get back to your floatplanes.

zombiewolf92553
11-29-2005, 10:23 AM
Hang em! kids sent over without body armour,
grrrr he is a traitor and Bastard(Sen Cunninham)

jds1978
11-29-2005, 10:24 AM
get back to your floatplanes.


best advice i heard all day! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

watteville
11-29-2005, 11:49 AM
This is the guy who boycoted his own flying star award ceremony because it was not enough.... Mommy, I want a better present!!! nooooo not this one.... That one! (congressional medal of honor)... How chivalresque! no wonder he was caught stealing in his mommy's purse!, he got a good spanking and got a good cry. Such a cute little fat boy!


I say send him to Iraq to drive a Humvee on patrol, then I'll forgive him.

AH_Gonzo
11-29-2005, 12:39 PM
When I was a kid, Cunningham was one of my biggest heroes. I'd read his book "Fox Two" and it really shed some light into the problems pilots and soldiers faced in Vietnam.

Politicians giving American fighting men and women meaningless targets and goals, less than the best equipment with which to carry out their mission, and making them all hang their butts out for squat. Famous celebrity types demoralizing fighting men. Cunningham put a huge enfaces on all of these.

You can't help but be angered at seeing a childhood hero be turned into a rich, crying hypocrite. I wonder if he still maintains his views on politicians being inscrutable and corrupt?

His shooting down 3 MiGs in one day does nothing to change that fact. If any of the bribes he€s admitted to taken have put even one soldiers life in danger, no punishment will be suitable enough to correct the wrong that he€s done.

BSS_Goat
11-29-2005, 12:56 PM
Here's his story:
http://www.acepilots.com/vietnam/cunningham.html

Docjonel
12-01-2005, 01:03 AM
I'm grateful to Randy Cunningham for the service he rendered to my country while he was in Vietnam. Nothing can change that.
But, Cunningham abused the position of privilege his war hero status afforded him and dishonored his office for personal gain. His corruption was as blatant and as bad as anything I've seen from a Washington politician. He has also damaged the institution of democracy by contributing to the widespread perception that "everyone does it" and "they're all crooked."
That really steams me.
My brother is an aid to our district's congressman. His boss is the ultimate straight shooter and has absolutely no tolerance at all for any unethical behavior by any member of either his office or campaign staffs. He served in Vietnam for four full years, entering the Army as a private and ending up as a Lieutenant Colonel in the reserves. He served proudly as a CIA agent after the war, leaving the agency in disgust when he saw how disgracefully Stansfield Turner treated many of the agency's most experienced and valuable members. He does not deserve to be tarnished by the actions of those who can't resist selling their offices and feeding at the public trough, thereby causing all those who serve in Washington to be labelled as "probably all corrupt."

Cunningham's case is sad, but he does not deserve leniency due to the blatancy of his actions. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif He may have recouped some small measure of honor by owning up to his actions, but he must then also accept the consequences of his crimes.

mattinen
12-02-2005, 03:14 AM
Captain Hans Wind of the Finish Airforce (75 kills) had some difficulties with the law in the post war years.

In 12.5.1958 he was convicted for forgery in the city court of Hanko. He was sentenced to 7 months in prison, but because the sentence was conditional, he never actually did any time in prison.

The most bitter thing to capt. Wind was however the lost of his military rank. According to the Finish penal code certain offences are grounds for depriving one's rank if convicted. This happened to Mr. Wind also, and it truly must have been hard for a person who has twice been granted the highest Finish decoration, The Mannerheim-cross

ddsflyer
12-02-2005, 10:58 AM
Say it ain't so, Duke. I've met the man several times and listened to him speak twice. What a shame. Just goes to show the potential for corruption in big government and the lure of career politicians.

jds1978
12-02-2005, 03:02 PM
Just goes to show the potential for corruption in big government and the lure of career politicians.


We really should have listened to Eisenhower as he left office.

huggy87
12-02-2005, 09:03 PM
This news really bummed me out. He is the only USN ace since WW2 (well, other than his RIO). Quite an accomplishment, and to then throw it away.

Gold_Monkey
12-02-2005, 10:04 PM
He's a friggin politician in high office, what else would expect.

BigKahuna_GS
12-03-2005, 08:51 AM
S!
__________________________________________________ ________________________
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
Speaking out against something you don't like isn't treason. God forbid you ever get into politics.
__________________________________________________ ________________________


---Enforcer572005 Posted Mon November 28 2005 21:21
its all pretty sad....

however, I have no problem wiht speaking out against the govt....god knows I do it ALOT, which has cost me severely.

But I think sitting on a 57mm AA gun and singing anti-US songs wiht the NVA guncrew, making radio broadcasts degrading American soldiers and urging them to turn on thier comrades, calling POWs war criminals on such broadcasts, and actively supporting the enemy in a shooting war against Americans, IS sure as h#ll treason.

Clark did the same thing basically when he went to Nvietnam. He also went to Iran to actively support the fanatics when they took our embassy, has openly supported Saddam, and is currently (according to one news report) in Iraq to help defend Saddam and ensure a "fair" trial. Where was he when countless people were being butchered without any due process by that guy?

Duke let himself and alot of others down, but it gripes me that he will probably be in prison while the aforementioned traitors suffer no penalties for THIER crimes, not to mention their double standards
__________________________________________________ _______________________



Well said Enforcer.
There is a difference between political dissent and giving aid to the enemy and causing POWs to be beaten and mistreated by your own personal actions. Jane Fonda is guilty of that.

I too read Duke's book "Fox 2" and had the pleasure of meeting him in person. I admired and respected the man. I think he knows exactly what he has done to his own good name, Naval Aviation and to the democratic process. While many politicans use "deny" tactics, it looks as though he has come clean on all that occured and is truely remorseful. I hope he can recover from this in a positive way but it is truely a sad event for all.

Whenever an event like this occurs the jaded remarks of all politicians, cops, public officals are "crooked" are plastered everywhere. The reality is most are hardworking individuals trying to make a differnce. The headlines of a few outshadow the sacrifice and service of the many. No one detest a dirty cop more than the other 99.9% of the cops laying their lives on the line for the public.


__

Ishmael932
12-03-2005, 09:58 AM
I'll add my 2 cents here.

While I am a lifeling democrat and disagree with most of Duke's political views, I respect the man for his service to the nation as well as his stand-up acceptance of his own guilt and responsibilty in this sad, sordid affair. I can only contrast his behavior with Rostenkowski's after his conviction. The fact remains he accepted over 2 million dollars in bribes from a defense contractor he was instrumental in steering hundreds of millions of dollars in contracts to. I sincerely hope and pray for his redemption.

I also acknowledge that he will still keep his Congressional pension and will use his leftover campaign funds to pay for his legal defense. I also note that there has never been an Ethics probe by the House Ethics Committee. However, considering the other ethical problems House Republicans have, Delay, Ney, Abramoff, Scanlon etc., I'm not really holding my breath for that to happen anytime soon.

The basic problem is the corruptive nature of money and politics. The cost of campigns is so prohibitively expensive a candidate must either be independantly wealthy or corruptible in order to hold national office. Until campigns are publicly financed or paid political advertising is banned outright, this problem will continue and be a danger to the integrity of the Republic.

Regarding Glenn and McCain and their roles in the Lincoln savings scandals, there is enough mud and blame to spread around with both parties.

My own personal idea would be to turn political office into national service. The IRS tax rolls could be fed into a computer which would randomly select taxpayers from the rolls to fill political offices based on constitutional requirements. You could be selected to local, state or national office randomly. During your term of office, you would take a leave of absence from your job and your official expenses would be paid by the government. After your term of office expires, you would return to private life. This would actually provide real, representative government free of party affiliation or party/corporate obligation.

To quote Dennis Miller:

"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong."

Enforcer572005
12-03-2005, 10:06 AM
Thanks Kahuna...The only reason i brought it up was because at the same time I saw the ticker headline about Duke, there was one about Ramsey clark going to Iraq to "help" Saddam, and a couple of nights ago I saw Fonda on some show downplaying that scene on the 57mm, claiming she just got carried away while they were singing and didnt mean anything anti-american blah blah http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif....while wearing a soviet helmet and squinting thru the sights. I just got a little P.O.ed picturing him rotting in the slammer while they continue thier revisionism in comfort-didnt mean to get anything started. It infuriated me while I was in high school in 72, and still does.

I was hoping that Cunningham had just done some filtering mentally and got caught up in this like happens to so many, but it looks like his activities were pretty pre-meditated and severe. He shoulda gone into bsness, worked for Coors or something like Steve Ritchie did. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

And Ishmael, yer pretty much correct I think, but we need to pick our politicos, as i dont trust any "random" system that can be compromised even worse,or let Charles Manson be in office, though the idea is interesting. I think elections are the lesser of several evils.