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MrMojok
09-13-2007, 11:06 AM
For those that don't know, along with all the drama between two-time defending WDC Fernando Alonso and Rookie phenom Lewis Hamilton, there has been considerable nastiness over an incident wherein deposed Ferrari Chief mechanic Nigel Stepney gave 700 pages of documents on the Ferrari 2007 car to McLaren's chief mechanic, Mike Coughlan.

The possibilities are that
1) McLaren's early-season protest that lead to the FIA banning Ferrari's so-called "moveable floor" came from inside knowledge gained as a result of having specs and designs on every nut and bolt of the F2007, and
2) That McLaren's dominant performance this year could also be due to knowledge gained from the 700 pages of documents.

As I type this the FIA is having an emergency hearing in Paris, and the result could be nothing less than FULL EXCLUSION of McLaren from the 2007 and 2008 seasons.

The verdict may be announced within the next few minutes.
If it happens that way, this will be the biggest event ever in F1, and will surely leave the sport shaken. Team McLaren will likely completely cease to exist after some 44 years of racing.

Daiichidoku
09-13-2007, 11:16 AM
IF somehow proven the specs were used in both ways, then morally MC should bite the bullet

Coughlin et al should have just stuck it in a file drawer until a season or two passed, just so no allegations could arise, as such has happened http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif

SeaFireLIV
09-13-2007, 11:18 AM
Formula one is rather more in it up to its neck than I ever could imagine. I was once privy (in my turbulent past) to be part of a converstaion on the monies that change hands in these things and also the politics of it. this news actually put me off Formula one for a bit.

It`s a lot more than just a race between rich miliionaires, I`m afraid. spying is only a small part.

Viper2005_
09-13-2007, 11:56 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6991147.stm

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif That's a big fine!

Pyrres
09-13-2007, 12:04 PM
It is a big fine, but not fair to the Ferrari drivers and Ferrari. All the points that Mclaren has has been got with unfairness to other teams.

BaldieJr
09-13-2007, 12:08 PM
oh good grief. emergency hearings in paris. call interpol and get putin on the gawddamned phone. we've got ourselves an international racecar crisis here.

its not like this is something important like nascar or monster trucks.

MEGILE
09-13-2007, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by BaldieJr:
oh good grief. emergency hearings in paris. call interpol and get putin on the gawddamned phone. we've got ourselves an international racecar crisis here.



http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

luftluuver
09-13-2007, 12:23 PM
I have seen F1 refered to as Bernie's Travelling Circus. It sure lives up to that!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

Just like in football, the Italians will moan, groan and whine to win.

x6BL_Brando
09-13-2007, 12:28 PM
As the Zimbabwean economy goes into meltdown and the Third world trembles (again) it's nice to know that the motor-racing world is doing well enough to be able to pass $100,0000,000.00 around between themselves. Poor b******s they aren't.

It's nice to know the FIA's hospitality bill is ensured for next month though. But is it newsworthy?

B

Divine-Wind
09-13-2007, 12:37 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

MrMojok
09-13-2007, 01:49 PM
Yes, it is newsworthy. It doesn't pertain to WWII airplanes or the game, but we have enough Brits and Europeans on this forum that it's just as newsworthy here as a thread about European football, or a thread about new theories on physics, or a thread on rugby or a thread on a pc game that is not a flight simulator.

To those of my fellow Americans who don't care about any motorsport that doesn't involve fat Southerners dribbling tobacco juice down their chin as they shift through their four gears driving around an oval in a 3400-lb tank, how about this-- stay the **** out of my thread here. Thanks.

RevvinUK
09-13-2007, 02:04 PM
Considering some of the off topic stuff thats been posted I think this is newsworthy, my own personal opinion on it is that some justice has been done here at least but I think total exclusion and that means ALL of the team should have happened. Even if both drivers had no idea what was going on (but from what we've heard in the media it seems Alonso at least had some idea of something going on) they still jumped in a McLaren car and raced. Whether they knew it or not they still gained an advantage from using that car so how can anyone be sure they would have scored those points had their team not cheated? You can't and should not separate the drivers from the team whether its McLaren, Ferrari or a team of Robin Reliants they are inextricably linked.

crucislancer
09-13-2007, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by MrMojok:
Yes, it is newsworthy. It doesn't pertain to WWII airplanes or the game, but we have enough Brits and Europeans on this forum that it's just as newsworthy here as a thread about European football, or a thread about new theories on physics, or a thread on rugby or a thread on a pc game that is not a flight simulator.

To those of my fellow Americans who don't care about any motorsport that doesn't involve fat Southerners dribbling tobacco juice down their chin as they shift through their four gears driving around an oval in a 3400-lb tank, how about this-- stay the **** out of my thread here. Thanks.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

Agree 100%. And, I'm an American. never could get into NASCAR or monster trucks. Always prefered the open wheel racing. But, that's just me.

I think the fine is a bit much, but perhaps more detail will come to light that will justify it. It could have been worse, obviously. I would hate to see Team McLaren disappear over this.

MrMojok
09-13-2007, 02:30 PM
I agree-- anything that benefited the team benefited the drivers as well. However, remember that the World Motorsport Council and FIA dropped this whole thing about two months ago or so due to insufficient evidence. This new hearing was announced only a few days ago, and it was based specifically on new evidence having come to light. The letter from Max Moseley to the McLaren drivers-- which is not internet speculation or British press hysterics, but is instead public record-- says basically that they will be granted immunity for cooperation with this latest round of inquiry, but if they choose to withhold information relevant to it that they are basically on their own.

What that means is, cooperate or lose your WDC points. It could not be more plainly stated.

So, the McLaren drivers will continue their duel for the championship. Ron Dennis is saying that at no time did McLaren benefit from any of these documents because they stayed in Coughlan's closet for three months, and Coughlan is saying the same. What the team is being punished for is people in senior management not blowing the whistle on it sooner, like they should have.

The drivers are exonerated just for cooperating with the state, as it were.

MrMojok
09-13-2007, 02:35 PM
The penalty is the $100 million fine, less what McLaren would have gotten for their constructor's points so far this season, and perhaps TV revenues as well. I don't know for sure, I am sure the details will be included in the offical FIA statement that will be released tomorrow, but McLaren isn't going to end up paying $100 mil out of pocket.

mrsiCkstar
09-13-2007, 02:47 PM
I've got mixed feelings about the "punishment"... because it wasn't a punishment at all.

McLaren's yearly income is around 500 million dollars... fining a company like that isn't going to do anything.

Okay they lost their constructor's championship points. But everybody knows that the driver's championship is what matters the most.

I understand the FIA gave a deal to the drivers ...but I don't understand why. They could have just told them that unless they provide the information, they won't be racing next season.

This sort of feels like you steal someone's Porche, you get caught, and they take away your microwave oven as a punishment, but the Porsche is still on your drive way at the end of the day.

A far better and a real punishment would have been to let the drivers keep their points but not award them points for the remaining races, or the 2 last races even.

I think that without that info on the Ferrari, McLaren would be breaking down just as much as they did last season. It's clear they've benefitted from it and the complaint about Ferrari's "moving" floor alone makes it evident.

Oh well, whichever of the Laren drivers wins the championship will have a hollow victory. It won't mean a thing as everybody knows it was won by cheating.

Stew278
09-13-2007, 02:59 PM
Taking McLaren out of the constructor's championship seems like a fair punishment. The higher ups at McLaren can claim that the inside knowledge was never used, but there will always be a shadow of a doubt that they can't remove.

The punishment shouldn't be so severe that it runs McLaren out of F1 though. Formula 1 needs good teams to keep the competition alive. It gets boring watching the teams with the deepest pockets win every race. A lot of times it seems like you have Ferrari, McLaren, BMW, and Renault competing and the other teams are reduced to the status of "also rans". Of course every motorsport seems like that these days.

RamsteinUSA
09-13-2007, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by BaldieJr:
oh good grief. emergency hearings in paris. call interpol and get putin on the gawddamned phone. we've got ourselves an international racecar crisis here.

its not like this is something important like nascar or monster trucks.

LOLOOLOL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Viper2005_
09-13-2007, 03:22 PM
Thusfar an important point appears to have been overlooked:


The team must also prove there is no Ferrari "intellectual property" in their cars next year before racing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6991147.stm

MrMojok
09-13-2007, 03:23 PM
hahah... the wording of my initial post does deserve a bit of bashing, doesn't it. The only thing that would have made it better was if I made the subject "READ IMMEDIATELY-- GREAT DANGER" or "4.09 HERE NOW!"

MrMojok
09-13-2007, 03:27 PM
Yeah, if I read it right there will be a December 2007 meeting where the FIA will decide whether or not there are furthur penalties based on the design of the 2008 car.

danjama
09-13-2007, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
Thusfar an important point appears to have been overlooked:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The team must also prove there is no Ferrari "intellectual property" in their cars next year before racing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6991147.stm </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i dont think this will be a problem as long as they did not use any of the information in the dossier to improve their car, which i whole heartedly believe they didnt.

it seems like im alone thinking this though, which is a shame. mclaren can design and build their own race winning cars.

luftluuver
09-13-2007, 03:38 PM
It a is BS ruling. No constructor points but the cars can be used to win the driver's championship. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Stew, there is only 2 makes that are competive, Ferrari and McLaren.

ploughman
09-13-2007, 03:40 PM
Own goal for F1 all round.

Now everyone's a loser.

danjama
09-13-2007, 03:43 PM
i think ferrari are payin off the FIA to act in their favour anyway

raaaid
09-13-2007, 03:50 PM
hell after seeing last race i even wonder if massa and raikonen get paid to let hamilton win

both tried to caught alonso but when was hamilton behind they let him pass

to not mention always letting hamilton refuel first

if the safety car comes bfore hamilton stops both pilots have the same problem

if it comes out later as has happened just alonso has problems

M_Gunz
09-13-2007, 04:19 PM
So if you find information on the other team's car and can prove they are cheating, you get
smeared for having the information and they have to lose their "innovation" but YOU are the
bad guys?

K_Freddie
09-13-2007, 04:19 PM
In IndyCar racing, AFAIK you have to make 3x or 5x duplicate of your car systems which are available for your opposition teams to choose from. This sort of evens the playing field so it's mainly down to the drivers and team tactics.

I've never liked F1 and always preferred IndyCar. Those speedways are the best http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Jediteo
09-13-2007, 04:22 PM
Formula one has all gone to heck, nowdays it's more about the science and the greasemonkeys than the drivers. The golden age of formula one (in my experience) is the Schumacher vs Hekkinnen (sry about the spelling) of the late 90s.

Stew278
09-13-2007, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
Stew, there is only 2 makes that are competive, Ferrari and McLaren.

This season that's true, Ferrari and McLaren have dominated all the races.

But in the 2006 season it was Ferrari and Renault that were competitive. And in 2005 it was Renault and McLaren that won most of the races. Even though BMW hasn't won many races in recent years, I threw them in there because with McLaren penalized, they are now second in the constructor's standings (but too far behind Ferrari to have any hope of catching up)

Either way, the races would probably be more exciting if there were more parity between the teams.

Manu-6S
09-13-2007, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
Just like in football, the Italians will moan, groan and whine to win.

Wow, what a smart statement http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif


Originally posted by danjama:
i think ferrari are payin off the FIA to act in their favour anyway

Obviously... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Above all when the next year F1 will use for all the cars the electronics that in this season only ML uses.


Originally posted by M_Gunz:
So if you find information on the other team's car and can prove they are cheating, you get
smeared for having the information and they have to lose their "innovation" but YOU are the
bad guys?

I correct you:
So if you STOLE information on the other team's car and can prove they are cheating (but that FIA said it was correct), you get
smeared for STOLING the information and they have to lose their "innovation" but YOU are the
bad guys?

Yes, YOU are the bad guys... ML as any other team can "cheat" using non visible parts... the only way to analize them accurately is having the designs and the tests.

F1 is made of all this little invisible parts.

I'm not a Ferrari fanboy (I always liked ML) but this time they did a bad move, quite the same of what Toyota did copying Ferrari some year ago.

I think it's ludicrous to leave ML's pilots with all their points... car is the most important factor in F1... IMO they should at least half the pilots points. But they won't do, maybe for not destroy the season, maybe because the rookie is still first in the standing (I liked Hamilton since Gp2, but this year I found him arrogant and fake... but always better the Alonso).

kimiraikkonen12
09-13-2007, 06:35 PM
As long as Kimi wins i dont care what happens. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif GO KIMI!!!!!!!!!!!

gkll
09-13-2007, 11:18 PM
well FIA rulings in past show a pattern rather like figure skating.... so there's that, Max and Bernie in the dirt again looking for dollars?

could be a false flag operation, that would be clever of ferrari.

Ron Dennis does in fact have a RL straight arrow rep, long cultivated. Its possible he is who he says he is... his record as his life shows the outward signs anyways, man of his word.

Anyways Id love to see the evidence but thatll never happen, leaves a bad taste on the season.

RamsteinUSA
09-13-2007, 11:29 PM
first the LuftWhiners, now the WhopWhiners...
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

BaldieJr
09-13-2007, 11:40 PM
the drama. the intrigue. the world wrestli.. oh wait, wrong sport

same general feeling though. the racing is never enough. not much of a show if there aren't colored hats and some indians.

mrsiCkstar
09-14-2007, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
So if you find information on the other team's car and can prove they are cheating, you get
smeared for having the information and they have to lose their "innovation" but YOU are the
bad guys?

Except the information wasn't found, it was stolen. And Ferrari's floor only became illegal after the FIA altered the rules. Which in turn only happened because McLaren had stolen information.

Personally I don't believe anything Ron Dennis says... the statements that he had the drivers and engineers sign mean absolutely nothing and they prove absolutely nothing. Everybody knows that Ron rules with an iron fist... in the past the drivers have had to sign ridiculous contracts that say they can't drink or do extreme sports etc...

He's not a man of his word either... back in july he was adamant that only Coughlan had the information and nobody in the team knew about it... turns out a lot of people knew about it.

As soon as he became aware that the team was in possession of the information on the Ferrari, he should have told the FIA and handed it over. He didn't. This shows intent to use it... Why else would you keep it under wraps?

And it's not only a question of if they used the data to put stuff into their cars. They also knew about Ferrari's race strategies, they knew where Ferrari's car was better than theirs and they could focus their development accordingly.

Last season McLaren had crappy strategies for most races, this season nearly identical to Ferrari's.

It's completely naive to think that the information hasn't helped them in development and other things.

You've gotta love this attitude that Hamilton is portraying about how HIS team is somehow a victim here, and that punishing them for using stolen information is cruel and unfair.

"I hate what their team is doing to us" ...yes.

No, McLaren made their bed and now they have to sleep in it. This whole thing is nobody else's fault but their own. And if this ends up hurting the sport, it's also McLaren's doing and nobody else's.

carguy_
09-14-2007, 04:53 AM
Originally posted by Stew278:
This season that's true, Ferrari and McLaren have dominated all the races.

Either way, the races would probably be more exciting if there were more parity between the teams.

I don`t understand why are people watching F1 anyways.Every year the same, two,three teams battling it out,all the others are background.

It`s true that those teams have long tradition in racing and they should be the best but that ruins the whole idea of racing.Since like 1993 I don` even have to watch the rest of he races to know who wins,after seeing the first 3 races."How did it go this time?Oh, Ferrari first,then McLaren has to be 2nd then ,eh?".

The 3 teams have too much of advantage over others making F1 anything else than interesting.Specs should be the same altoghether then the strategy and drivers would only matter.

The penalty IMO is too small.Should be three times the money.Team points all taken, no need to penalize the drivers which win by cheating anyway.

M_Gunz
09-14-2007, 05:02 AM
Nobody else's. So they or some sent agent of theirs broke into Ferrari and....

Jasko76
09-14-2007, 05:41 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:

Stew, there is only 2 makes that are competive, Ferrari and McLaren.

And don't forget BMW, my friend. This is their only second season as a F1 team, and already they're the third best team. Well, second now, but it doesn't really count, I think. Hopefully, next season, Heidfeld or Kubica will snatch third place in driver's championship as well, but it'll take a lot of hard work, not 13 second-pitstops like on Monza.

Now let us look forward to Spa-Francorchamps race on sunday!

mrsiCkstar
09-14-2007, 05:42 AM
Nobody else's. So they or some sent agent of theirs broke into Ferrari and....

you can add Nigel Stepney into it if you want... he's going to get what's coming to him no doubt. But the choice to not do the right thing and bring it into the open and hand over the data was McLaren's and no one else's. I'm sure Stepney didn't hold a gun to Dennis' head and tell him to take the information or else...

Worf101
09-14-2007, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by MrMojok:
To those of my fellow Americans who don't care about any motorsport that doesn't involve fat Southerners dribbling tobacco juice down their chin as they shift through their four gears driving around an oval in a 3400-lb tank, how about this-- stay the **** out of my thread here. Thanks.

PHSST!!!!!! Dang it!!! I just spewed my chaw onto this here puter screen. Ma!! gimme a piece a burlap so ah kin wipe da slobber off'n the screen???

God man that's the funniest thing I've read in days. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

Da Worfster

Xiolablu3
09-14-2007, 09:20 AM
I dont think Mclaren stole anything did they?

Didnt an ex-Ferrari mechanic who had a beef with Ferrari give them the 700 page report?

Or maybe he offered it Mclaren for a certain fee and they paid it. Which is probably more likely.

WHichever is true, from what we know so far they certainly didnt 'steal' it.

'Stole' makes it sound like they sent in James Bond to the Ferrari offices...

JG52Uther
09-14-2007, 09:45 AM
Just heard on the news that Alonso is not blame free in all this.

Manu-6S
09-14-2007, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
WHichever is true, from what we know so far they certainly didnt 'steal' it.


Of course not.

But when you use someone else intellectual property without paying rights, you are stealing it.

Sturm_Williger
09-14-2007, 10:15 AM
More than just the 700 page report...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6995240.stm

Insuber
09-14-2007, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I dont think Mclaren stole anything did they?

Didnt an ex-Ferrari mechanic who had a beef with Ferrari give them the 700 page report?

Or maybe he offered it Mclaren for a certain fee and they paid it. Which is probably more likely.

WHichever is true, from what we know so far they certainly didnt 'steal' it.

'Stole' makes it sound like they sent in James Bond to the Ferrari offices...


Indeed, acquiring a stolen object, or stolen know-how, it's not the same crime, but it's still a crime (legally) and a fraud (sportwise). Full stop.

Just read that Stepney even revealed to McLaren the Ferraris's race strategy (pitstops etc) with SMS ...

Regards,
Insuber

Manu-6S
09-14-2007, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by Sturm_Williger:
More than just the 700 page report...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6995240.stm

Wow!!

I can't believe how the pilots can keep their points...

No, wait... it's F1 after all...

Insuber
09-14-2007, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Sturm_Williger:
More than just the 700 page report...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6995240.stm


This should definitely close the mouth to all the Mcwhiners, lol! ...

Insuber

Insuber
09-14-2007, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by RamsteinUSA:
first the LuftWhiners, now the WhopWhiners...
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif


"WHOP: A derogatory name for a person of Italian origin."

You aren't afraid by anything, are you??? A simple and effective condensate of racism, impoliteness, roughness. Shame on you.

Viper2005_
09-14-2007, 11:15 AM
This is all very problematic.

Confidentiality in an engineering sport is both important and impossible.

As soon as those cars go out on the track, they are subject to scrutiny which may lead to reverse engineering.

With cameras everywhere recording the action in minute detail and at high frame rates, it's not exactly beyond the wit of man to make some pretty detailed calculations as to the performance of the opposition's cars.

Since there are only so many ways to skin a cat, it is inevitable that different teams will simultaneously evolve similar solutions to similar problems.

If Team A manages some feat of performance during a race, they immediately advertise to all the other teams that this feat is possible.

It is then likely that the other teams will seek to emulate that performance.

Now, if you stick a big sticker on your car marked "Confidential", does that mean that all the other teams are duty bound not to use the performance information presented in plain sight during race weekends?

Hopefully most sane people would say not.

Clearly it is not good for the image of the sport if victory or defeat hinges upon espionage because given the sums of money involved, things could very quickly become extremely nasty.

However, where does espionage begin?

McLaren have really shot themselves in the foot here because I fear that there is no easy answer to the above question. Therefore any similarities between their car and Ferrari's is now likely to be seen to be the product of espionage.

The dirty laundry can't be aired in public because this would inevitably result in the publication of commercially sensitive, confidential information, which would be very unfair to Ferrari.

As a direct result of this case, I have already discovered that Ferrari don't put air in their tyres. They probably don't use Nitrogen either because that's too obvious. Cue research into the properties of a variety of gasses, and the performance implications of those properties as applied to race car tyres. If I can do it, you can bet that all the other teams are at it even as we type.

I have also learned that Ferrari use some kind of interesting braking system. Shades of McLaren's own "third pedal"? Is this legal? If not, is it ethical to bring Ferrari to book over it given the source of the information?

All sorts of cans of worms are being opened with each and every twist in this rather sordid story, and the consequences may well be both far-reaching and long lasting...

mrsiCkstar
09-14-2007, 11:59 AM
are you seriously likening watching a rival team's car on the track, or even an onboard camera feed with brake and throttle input superimposed on the screen with obtaining hundreds and hundreds of pages of confidential information, and having an actual spy in the team who will systematically give you information on the team's strategies from the inside?

the fact that Ferrari doesn't use air to fill their tires is widely known because none of the teams do. They all use gas. Infact in most racing classes they use gas, not just F1.

And yes it's also widely known that teams develop their own cars, and this includes braking systems. Some are more effective than others.

None of this will get you anywhere as far as developing a car is concerned.

To me it's not problematic at all... and the answer to your question is crystal clear.

espionage begins when you get information from an inside source. when you then hide that fact and use the information to gain an advantage. then actively pursuing specific information about specific systems in the rival car etc etc...

watching another team's car on track or taking pictures of it on the pit lane is nowhere near this.

this is absolutely inane that I have to even explain this.

Manu-6S
09-14-2007, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by mrsiCkstar:
the fact that Ferrari doesn't use air to fill their tires is widely known because none of the teams do. They all use gas. Infact in most racing classes they use gas, not just F1.


IIRC it's for a safety matter; if filled with air a tire can explode in case of failure.

Viper2005_
09-14-2007, 01:04 PM
The explosion risk simply requires that you remove Oxygen from the tyre. Pure Nitrogen will do that job nicely.

However if you consider the thermodynamics of tyres, there is obviously scope for performance modification by selecting a gas with different properties from Nitrogen. Of course it's obvious now that this information has been revealed. It wasn't quite so obvious beforehand.

M_Gunz
09-14-2007, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Insuber:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RamsteinUSA:
first the LuftWhiners, now the WhopWhiners...
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif


"WHOP: A derogatory name for a person of Italian origin."

You aren't afraid by anything, are you??? A simple and effective condensate of racism, impoliteness, roughness. Shame on you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Time for some history. A lot of immigrants came to the US at the end of the 19th century and
after. Huge shiploads, the doors were opened wide kinda like.. nevermind.
Anyway some countries saw a chance to dump out their prisons in the process and did.

If you arrived With Out Papers then your new papers were stamped WOP.
And a whole lot of people WOP came that way because they had extremely bad habits back "home".
When they'd get caught doing the same in the US, that WOP status became known again and again.

Yes, it only takes the determined few to F things up for the rest, don't it?

ZappaTime
09-14-2007, 03:35 PM
Apparently, Ron Denis himself was the one who let the FIA know about the new evidence , once it had come to his attention. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif
edit: Alonso was threatening him with exposing the e-mails to the FIA if Ron didn't give him number one status http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

MrMojok
09-14-2007, 08:31 PM
Yep, during qualifying in Hungary was the big flap where Hamilton refused to follow team orders to allow Alonso past, and Alonso retaliated by blocking Hamilton in the pits so he would not get another crack at pole.

Now, it comes out, that the very next day, Alonso made some "demands" of Ron Dennis. When Ron refused, Alonso threatened to go to the FIA with all the e-mails you are reading about now. Ron went to the FIA first.

Alonso and the McLaren test driver were discussing the use of the mystery gas in Ferrari's tires as well as things like weight distribution on the Ferrari as early as March. Alonso has been involved with all this since the beginning. He is every bit as guilty as are Stepney and Coughlan.

The only reason his Superlicense wasn't revoked is that he cooperated with the prosecution, so to speak.

Adam906
09-14-2007, 09:54 PM
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=32766


The full inditement and ruling and proof can be found there

bigbossmalone
09-15-2007, 03:16 AM
Originally posted by mrsiCkstar:
I've got mixed feelings about the "punishment"... because it wasn't a punishment at all.

McLaren's yearly income is around 500 million dollars... fining a company like that isn't going to do anything.

Okay they lost their constructor's championship points. But everybody knows that the driver's championship is what matters the most.

I understand the FIA gave a deal to the drivers ...but I don't understand why. They could have just told them that unless they provide the information, they won't be racing next season.

This sort of feels like you steal someone's Porche, you get caught, and they take away your microwave oven as a punishment, but the Porsche is still on your drive way at the end of the day.

A far better and a real punishment would have been to let the drivers keep their points but not award them points for the remaining races, or the 2 last races even.

I think that without that info on the Ferrari, McLaren would be breaking down just as much as they did last season. It's clear they've benefitted from it and the complaint about Ferrari's "moving" floor alone makes it evident.

Oh well, whichever of the Laren drivers wins the championship will have a hollow victory. It won't mean a thing as everybody knows it was won by cheating.

Agreed. So the sneaky bast#%ds have now had their 'microwave' taken away, and are free to use the Porsche for the rest of the year?
Something's wrong here. It may be a record fine, but it won't break MC's back.
I'd like to see fans at the last few races with big banners trackside along the lines of 'MC CHEATERS' or something like that. No need to mention that I'm a Ferrari fan since I first got into F1 as a teenager, even through all the years when they weren't winning.
Credit where due; Hamilton is a fantastic driver, and if anyone other than Ferrari wins this year, I'd be happy if he did, even if using a stolen Porsche. Look at how he took Kimi at Monza for 2nd!
As for Alonso, well, he should join some whiner forum somewhere, and I'm not saying anything more about him. He's just not worth it. The whiner.

mrsiCkstar
09-15-2007, 04:22 AM
the porsche/microwave analogy was not really in relation to McLaren's car... but to the Driver's Championship (Porsche) and the Constructor's (Microwave)

I'm fairly sure you won't find parts with Ferrari logos inside a McLaren, but I think that's entirely irrelevant. What matters most is the intention.

I mean if you aimed at somebody's head, fired but missed, it would still be attempted murder and your butt would be in jail.

I'm actually hoping Alonso wings the title... well I'm still hoping Kimi does but that's not very likely is it? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Alonso is a better driver than Hamilton. He's been getting quicker and quicker all season. Whereas Hamilton started as pretty likeable guy but has since degraded into an egotistic, childish, angsty teen with kindergarten logic.

His speed or performance in the car hasn't improved much either. He's been getting spanked on the track by Alonso recently.

Hamilton's overtaking maneuvre was a stupid and irrational move.

1. He wasn't even in control of the car anymore into the corner. It was sheer luck that he didn't spin out and take Räikkönen with him.

2. He was much quicker than Räikkönen with his new tyres and could have easily overtaken him into the next shicane or next lap into the first corner.

There was really nothing brilliant about it. It was an overtaking attempt from too far back and he got lucky with it.

bigbossmalone
09-15-2007, 05:02 AM
mrsiCkstar
I understood your analogy, just didn't apply it properly in my post..apologies there.
Agreed again - Alonso is performing better, and looks to be on form again for the Belgian race.
Hamilton, on the other hand, well, after starting so brilliantly this season, I guess you're right, he's starting to slip a bit.
As for that overtaking move, you could be right, but hell, so could I - after all, its a very fine line between bravery and stupidity.
I'll study the move again in slow mo this weekend and see if if I can give a more objective reply to this.
I reserve the right to think that Alonso, and increasingly, Hamilton, are both bratty whiners.
I expect folk to disagree with this statement, but I am entitled to view my opinion, as are we all on this forum. Thats my view.
Meanwhile, I'll be holding both thumbs for Kimi and Felipe this weekend.
At least Ferrari now look to have the constructors champs in the bag!
Enjoy the race this weekend, guys!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

raaaid
09-15-2007, 09:07 AM
hell i support so much alonso that im even stressed out

ZappaTime
09-15-2007, 09:19 AM
Enjoy the race!? It's a little difficult to enjoy anything in F1 right now (and I'm a huge fan). The best season in years has just been ruined imho. I'm a little perplexed that Alonso is still in the team, if he was part of anything underhand going on behind ron Denis's back involving the feed of Ferrari info, then he should have been suspended/sacked along with Pedro de La Rosa and their chief engineer guy (who was in contact with Stepney). From what's been released so far the two drivers (FA and PdlR) were actively up to something with the info regarding Ferrari. Hamilton was out of the loop.
Your criticism of Hamilton is unfounded. Check out most of his GP2 career wins and you'll see a catalogue of brilliant overtaking manouvres in the vain of many a kart driver, with which style he often slings the Maclaren around. He's a rookie don't forget and has blown away a 2 times world champion on many an occasion, he's performed well outside anyone's expectations, hardly the mark of an egotistic, childish, angsty teen with kindergarten logic.

JG52Uther
09-15-2007, 10:01 AM
I wonder if Alonso will still be with McClaren next season.If he's involved then nobody should touch him.Unfortunately,much as I love F1,its really all about money.

mrsiCkstar
09-15-2007, 10:16 AM
Your criticism of Hamilton is unfounded. Check out most of his GP2 career wins and you'll see a catalogue of brilliant overtaking manouvres in the vain of many a kart driver, with which style he often slings the Maclaren around. He's a rookie don't forget and has blown away a 2 times world champion on many an occasion, he's performed well outside anyone's expectations, hardly the mark of an egotistic, childish, angsty teen with kindergarten logic.

I really don't care about his GP2 performance. Everybody who's in F1 is there for a good reason, and that's because they can drive a car. What matters is what he does in F1... He's done well so far, but he's stopped developing. He's not getting quicker, but everyone else is.

His disobeying of team orders, the stupid comments he made right before the Monza race etc ARE the mark of an egotistic, childish, angsty teen with kindergarten logic.

I beginning to think that the reason Hamilton often outpeformed Alonso in the beginning of the season was because of what Alonso himself said at the start of the season. He said that it'll take him until the late half of the season to really get comfortable with the car and the team. And this has proved to be true... he's been washing the floors with Hamilton a lot lately. In Practise sessions, qualifying and the races.

I remember before the season had started Ron Dennis had to tell Hamilton to shut the fk up because of all the big talk he was giving. He did, but now it's starting to go into his head again. The hype. Which is all it is.

Hamilton is not as quick a driver as the press would have you believe, this has become apparent lately. I think if you put Rosberg in a McLaren, he would be quicker than Hamilton the Wonder Boy.

What really made me laugh was right after the overtake in Monza, the commentators in Norwegian TV made comments like "he brakes incredibly late! this should not be physically possible! Superb driving!"

I was on the floor laughing my butt off because it was apparent from the onboard camera that he was not in control of that car into the corner haha... the boy got lucky, and that "maneuvre" will probably be talked about for years in the media as an example of how Hamilton is the new Senna.

Anti_Ship_Fella
09-15-2007, 10:53 AM
Lol too bad they didnt took all of hamiltonn and alonsos points http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif but at least ferrari will win the constructor

heywooood
09-15-2007, 11:45 AM
whats next?

how do we now define a champion?

one with the best espionage?...the best drugs?

bigbossmalone
09-15-2007, 12:08 PM
Naaah, the best gas! (in tyres) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

MrMojok
09-15-2007, 07:54 PM
Hamilton's apparent slowdown may be due to lack of setup information from Alonso. There is considerable evidence to suggest that in an effort to placate Alonso, Ron D. allowed Alonso to keep his setup info to himself from Turkey onwards. Or perhaps from Hungary onwards, even though Hamilton won that one.

Raaaid-- what is the Spanish press saying right now about Alonso, with the recent news? Are they still supportive of him?

raaaid
09-16-2007, 04:20 AM
yes very supportive

i like him

he seems to intend to leave maclaren because of towards hamilton favoritism from the team

myself im very annoyed of hamilton always refueling 1st

Taylortony
09-16-2007, 05:36 AM
Even with all thats gone on, do you think Ferrari will be able to display the 2007 constructors trophy in Ferrari Towers and say hand on heart we won that........

More like they will hide it somewhere...

even if they win people will still say, well on results maclaren would have won it if not for the politics going on.......

They should have to make all the cars data available to all the car companies in it, so that the playing field is leveller and its down to racing not budgets

Brain32
09-16-2007, 06:16 AM
I think the fine is OK, I mean let's face it McLaren is too big to get suspended from F1 by any meaningfull time like a season or even worse two. Maybe the fine itself should had been bigger than 100 mil.$
BTW: I can't stand Alonso, arrogant little *******, I wish Raikkonen kicks his @ss. However F1 is not the same without the greatest of them all - M. Schumacher http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Stew278
09-16-2007, 06:32 AM
Originally posted by Taylortony:

They should have to make all the cars data available to all the car companies in it, so that the playing field is leveller and its down to racing not budgets

This would improve parity, unfortunately it would probably also encourage mediocrity and be the end of innovation. No team would spend tons of $$$ researching improvements to their cars if all of their competitors would be able to then also use that info free of charge.

Perhaps the league could instate spending limits and salary caps to prevent money bag teams from more or less buying the championship every year. But again, limiting the money would reduce innovation.

Didn't F1 make some regulation changes between the 2004 and 2005 seasons that were designed to help level the playing field?

bigbossmalone
09-16-2007, 09:28 AM
So, the Belgian race is done.
My team did well with a one-two finish.
I should be happy.
SHOULD be happy.
Why aren't I all that happy?
I think this season has been spoilt beyond repair - for me, anyways.
Come back, Schumie!!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

DrHerb
09-16-2007, 08:05 PM
Alonso imo is a winy spoiled little *bleep* that deserves to be thrown out of McLaren for the **** he pulled off. Its obvious he isnt a team player, so screw him.....i never liked that guy, this is why http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article2468987.ece

mrsiCkstar
09-17-2007, 02:14 AM
that was just pure racing... it was a great battle. It was Hamilton's own fault he went wide out of the first corner, he tried to force himself next to Alonso but got the short end of the stick.

Like he himself said there was plenty of room for both of them. If he had settled down in his place... by going wide he actually gained and was able to challenge Alonso into Eau Rouge. But he lost that fight as well.

And quite typically he's whining about it afterwards. Alonso is fighting for the championship, he's under no obligation to be "nice" and leave room for his biggest rival of the season.

More whining from Hamilton... "whaaa he didn't give up his place for free!"

The dude just lacked the pace and got spanked yet again by his quicker team mate.

MrMojok
09-17-2007, 02:22 AM
I bet you twenty UbiCredits the two of them take each other out in one of these last three races, leading to War between Spain and Britain.

Jasko76
09-17-2007, 02:27 AM
Bah, both Alonso and Hamilton and their team sucks. Well done Kimi and S.F.! Enzo would have been proud.

MrMojok
09-17-2007, 02:39 AM
Kimi is KING OF SPA

Manu-6S
09-17-2007, 04:17 AM
Alonso is the usual ***hole: he's talented but his overtakes are based on the other pilots' fear to ruin their race.

If he want to pass the OTHER must move apart.

It happened more the once (2 times with Massa: the first Massa didn't let him pass and he cutted the chicane, obviuosly without penalization, the second when they hitted and argued after the race).

But he's usual to do this with other pilots too.

This is because he's arrogant and he doesn't feel respect for the other.

I remember when I raced in the Italian Championship of Nascar Racing 2003: we were all friends but the few guys that did those kind of manouvres were really unpleasant to all.

Manu-6S
10-05-2007, 09:02 AM
The scandal goes on... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Most piloted championship I've ever seen, and I'm not joking... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

bigbossmalone
10-05-2007, 09:52 AM
So, today I read that, after footage taken by a fan at the Japan GP was seen, Hamilton might lose his points/be penalised 10 places for the Chinese GP, because of 'erratic' driving while behind the safety car! Not sure if this will happen, but apparently this footage is available on YOutube.
I don't have a link, sorry, if anyone does, please post!

Manu-6S
10-05-2007, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by bigbossmalone:
So, today I read that, after footage taken by a fan at the Japan GP was seen, Hamilton might lose his points/be penalised 10 places for the Chinese GP, because of 'erratic' driving while behind the safety car! Not sure if this will happen, but apparently this footage is available on YOutube.
I don't have a link, sorry, if anyone does, please post!

Searching "Hamilton" in YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QJurnfxRm4

Warming his brakes the guy was to overtake the safety car and did a sudden manouvre that caused the crash.

In the past some pilots were penalised for that kind of manouvre behind caution (above all in these weather condition)...

However FIA assolved him (can't they?).

Too many "strange" decisions these year from FIA... like letting pilots who drive an "outlaw" car to win the Championship. Ridiculous.

bigbossmalone
10-06-2007, 02:01 AM
After following that link to the Youtube vid, I get the message: 'This video has been removed due to a copyright issue by Formula One management', or words to that effect.
So, you might be one of the few lucky enough to have seen it, Manu-6S.
Curiouser and curiouser....
that is precisely the kind of thing that gets me thinking along the lines of cover-up, scandal, etc.
If Ubi has their zoo, the F1 circus is starting to take the cake...