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Choopius
11-06-2009, 04:01 PM
OK we have an interesting, slightly worrying problem here. Fast forward this video (http://g4tv.com/videos/42524/Morgan-Webb--Assassins-Creed-II/) to 3:52 and tell me what you see.

I REALLY REALLY hope they don't make THAT guy out to be a heroic assassin. I would instantly lose ALL respect for the AC series.

Please, please, please make this turn out to be some harmless mini-game. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

AltairEagleEzio
11-06-2009, 04:14 PM
I think it's just one of those code-breaker mini-games that Desmond may have to do, unlike in the first game where the passcodes were given to him. I don't know who this Heroic Assassin is, please explain.

Tetsou88
11-06-2009, 04:16 PM
I believe that is one of the minigames they've brought up in some of the previews.


Who is he by the way? He looks familiar.



Edit: Oh wait...
http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Politics/Images/lee-harvey-oswald-mug-shot.jpg

Lee Harvey Oswald.

MrNussbaum
11-06-2009, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by AltairEagleEzio:
I think it's just one of those code-breaker mini-games that Desmond may have to do, unlike in the first game where the passcodes were given to him. I don't know who this Heroic Assassin is, please explain.

The person in question is Lee Harvey Oswald, JFK's assassin.

I think the TC is reading too much into just a picture. Without knowing the context in which it is used, everything is pure speculation.

No matter how you feel about the subject, Ubisoft wouldn't be stupid enough to make JFK's assassination out to be a good thing. I think the backlash would be bigger than having him actually poison the corrupt pope that actually died by an apparent poisoning. Again, that's pure speculation too.

craxe
11-06-2009, 04:19 PM
I'm gonna guess Lee Harvey Oswald or John Wilkes Booth from his reation.

EDIT: YAY!!! my first ninja-ing!

Tetsou88
11-06-2009, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by MrNussbaum:
No matter how you feel about the subject, Ubisoft wouldn't be stupid enough to make JFK's assassination out to be a good thing. I think the backlash would be bigger than having him actually poison the corrupt pope that actually died by an apparent poisoning. Again, that's pure speculation too.

Maybe they make Oswald out to be a Templar.

Or point out the fact that Oswald was an Assassin, but was framed by the Templars(which is one"theory")

MrNussbaum
11-06-2009, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by Tetsou88:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MrNussbaum:
No matter how you feel about the subject, Ubisoft wouldn't be stupid enough to make JFK's assassination out to be a good thing. I think the backlash would be bigger than having him actually poison the corrupt pope that actually died by an apparent poisoning. Again, that's pure speculation too.

Maybe they make Oswald out to be a Templar.

Or point out the fact that Oswald was an Assassin, but was framed by the Templars(which is one"theory") </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right, that's what I was thinking. I just don't see them having the nards to suggest JFK's assassination was a "sacrifice for the greater good".

com199
11-06-2009, 04:39 PM
I am almost certain that is NOT Lee Harvey Oswald. Patrice seems like a smart guy, I doubt he would want to get lynched by the mobs that would burn down their building.

DeSabellis
11-06-2009, 04:42 PM
SPOILER:

<span class="ev_code_WHITE">It's probably just a 'conspiracy theory', part of the 'truth' videos from Subject 16's glyphs.</span>

It's definitely Oswald.

Choopius
11-06-2009, 04:45 PM
Yeah you guys are right on the money, it's freakin' Lee Harvey Oswald.

And if you look at the rest of the stuff in that same video image it's more than just a picture of him. There's a picture of Jackie Kennedy immediately after the assassination, a picture of the Texas School Book Depository where Oswald fired from, a picture of the Secret Service agents jumping onto the back of the car after Kennedy was hit, and a picture of the blood-soaked inside of the Presidential limo. I can tell because I've been interested in this historical event since I was a kid.

It definately looks like a mini-game because it pops up as Ezio is scaling Giotto's Campanille. I really hope you guys are right about Ubi taking the "conspiracy" angle on this and suggesting he was framed. I REALLY don't even want to think of the public's reaction if this game even HINTS at being sympathetic to Lee Harvey Oswald.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

LaurenIsSoMosh
11-06-2009, 04:46 PM
Where are we getting the idea 'Heroic Assassin?'

Choopius, relax. JFK is a very dear part of American history and memory, and I know Ubisoft won't disrespect that.

DeSabellis
11-06-2009, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by LaurenIsSoMosh:
Where are we getting the idea 'Heroic Assassin?'

Wondering minds and speculation of course...

Airadan
11-06-2009, 04:52 PM
Bloody AC every thing is a secret hehehe

Choopius
11-06-2009, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by LaurenIsSoMosh:
Where are we getting the idea 'Heroic Assassin?'

Choopius, relax. JFK is a very dear part of American history and memory, and I know Ubisoft won't disrespect that.

Read my first post. I said "I REALLY REALLY hope they don't make THAT guy out to be a heroic assassin."

I'm not suggesting that they ARE saying he's a hero but all the other assassins that we've seen in the games so far are all "good guys" with the lone exception of Al Mualim.

Seems odd that it would be Al Mualim and Lee Harvey Oswald. Again just speculation and obviously LIVELY discussion.

FROGGEman2
11-06-2009, 05:41 PM
Why does it have to be black and white?

Why does Assassin = good and Templar = bad? C'mon, I would love it if he turned out to be an Assassin!

godsmack_darius
11-06-2009, 05:44 PM
Hehe The Assassin Creed Team are Canadian http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Not American, so they dont care http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Plus maybe JFK was an Assassin or something, and he was assinated by Lee Harvey Oswald


But it would make sence since Assassins Creed is a conspiracy game, and I for one am a conspiracy theorist/Truther.

So it would make sence that the templars/Illuminati/Government who are pretty much the masters of the world in the modern world, would frame another assassins (Lee Harvey Oswald) for killing JFK, because maybe Oswald was an Assassin but the Templars/Illuminati/Government wanted him dead for some reason

UchihaKarasu
11-06-2009, 05:44 PM
You have to keep in mind Assassin's Creed is NOT a black and white game. There is no, this is good and this is bad. It's all about the different shades of gray.

JudgeQwerty
11-06-2009, 06:18 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gifNixon was totally a Templar...

UchihaKarasu
11-06-2009, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by JudgeQwerty:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gifNixon was totally a Templar...

Templar?!?!
<span class="ev_code_RED">BURN HIMMMM!!!!!!</span>

(has anyone figure how much of a pyro I am? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif)

Edengoth
11-06-2009, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by UchihaKarasu:
You have to keep in mind Assassin's Creed is NOT a black and white game. There is no, this is good and this is bad. It's all about the different shades of gray.
Of course. That's why all of your targets except Talal and Robert De Sable casually kill at least one person for insubstantial reasons. The party line may be "there are no good guys and bad guys", but really, AC1 was pretty clear-cut.
Assassins kill when necessary, and only armed people.
Templars kill whoever they please.
Assassins try to free everyone.
Templars try to control everyone.
The fact that they both want peace is the only "good" thing about the Templars. The fact that they both misrepresent themselves to the public is the only "bad" thing about the Assassins.

JudgeQwerty
11-06-2009, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Edengoth:
Of course. That's why all of your targets except Talal and Robert De Sable casually kill at least one person for insubstantial reasons. The party line may be "there are no good guys and bad guys", but really, AC1 was pretty clear-cut.
Assassins kill when necessary, and only armed people.
Templars kill whoever they please.
Assassins try to free everyone.
Templars try to control everyone.
The fact that they both want peace is the only "good" thing about the Templars. The fact that they both misrepresent themselves to the public is the only "bad" thing about the Assassins.

You left out killing hundreds of soldiers only trying to keep the street safe and catch that guy who just murdered their boss.

Also, Robert de Sable randomly kills a hostage during the Masyaf siege. And Talal is a slaver. That says enough, I think.

I want to add though that I actually found all their deathbed arguments quite compelling, aside from Majd Addin's "I don't need a stinking motive to have fun!!" which is still quite realistic.

X10J
11-06-2009, 08:11 PM
dont forget richard killing his men http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

also sebrand killed that monk and abul poisoned his guests

OHS_90
11-06-2009, 08:45 PM
The hosatge killed during the siege is an Assassin, and as there were no rules of war/Geneva Conventions back then, his killing was understandable.

You can also argue that the killings were either planned/calculated moves or were nasty character flaws. A planned killing could be Abu'l Nuqoud when he posioned the guests. They were supposdly wealthy/influential people who greatly contributed to the Muslim war effort. Killing them would reduce their capacity to make war. Majd Addin's killings are used to maintain political and civil control over Jerusalem (i.e. make himself feared), although he says its also fun, so could be seen as both a planned move and a serious flaw.

The charactr flaws would be the likes of Tamir and Sibrand. Tamir was a buisnessman with a bad temper. The guy failed to do his job, and had the unfortune for working for a demanding boss with a knife, and a bad temper. Sibrand killed the priest out of fear and paranoia. Who created this paranoia? the Assassins, namely Altair. So although he did kill him, the Assassins own success was working against them.

And as for the Assassins only killing armed men, Altair kills the elderly man at the start of AC and Abu'l Nuqoud is un-armed. So technicaly that would be incorrect.

*Im not trying to say that what these characters did would be right, particularly by today's morals/ethics/standards, only that its not super clear cut as some have made out. Well IMO any way.

JudgeQwerty
11-06-2009, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by OHS_90:
The hosatge killed during the siege is an Assassin, and as there were no rules of war/Geneva Conventions back then, his killing was understandable.

Actually, there were quite a few rules of war, at least when Saladin and Richard were in charge. Later, when discussing William's own hostage killing, Richard is quite ****ed.

Not that any of Robert's men would squeal on him or worry about Al Mualim writng an angry letter to Richard...

Edengoth
11-06-2009, 10:14 PM
I suppose most of those could be justified, but did you hear Majd Addin's death speech? That man was, by most people's standards, not a "good guy". Tamir's reaction was inexcusable and Jubair's was just plain overkill (pun intended). Other than that, I'll buy a few of those justifications.
Altair got stabbed in the gut for killing the old man, among other misdeeds, so that act represents going against the Assassin's Creed and therefor I don't count it.

I think my point overall was just that for all their talk of moral ambiguity, it seemed like the writers portrayed the Templars as unreasonable and vile while portraying the Assassins as rational and wise.
(With the exception of a few of the death speeches and Al Mualim's betrayal, all of which I thought didn't really match what was seen of those characters before dying or "coming out of the Evil closet".)

I totally see where you're coming from though, OHS. Most of those acts could certainly be justified and most of the acts of the Assassins could certainly be condemned...depending on one's point of view.

keepth3beat
11-06-2009, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by Edengoth:
Most of those acts could certainly be justified and most of the acts of the Assassins could certainly be condemned...depending on one's point of view.

Hence the 'Nothing is true, everything is permitted'.

I admit, I felt as though the ending wasn't as ambiguous morally as I would have liked it to be. It kind of came down to evil men battling over an artifact, when it seemed as though they were trying to build up the story in a way wherein the Assassins were the ones doing the bad and the targets were not. But then Lucy ended up confirming the whole "Nah, the templars really are bad, they're just deluding themselves" thing.

It's a shame that they didn't flesh out as much of that ambiguous moral ground as they could have, and Altair's confusion over which side was right... but hopefully we'll see a bit more of that in AC2 (with the exception of Altair, of course). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

UchihaKarasu
11-06-2009, 10:37 PM
I really like the fact that at the end of the game there wasn't a "good" side. And Altair didn't really know who to trust anymore so he decided to do what he believed was right, valuing the human ability of free-will over the possibility of "true" peace.
By the end of the game he is much wiser and I love the attachment that he writes. ( I hope it comes up in AC2, possibly the codex)

X10J
11-06-2009, 10:43 PM
nice sig

JudgeQwerty
11-06-2009, 10:48 PM
Actually, I think the ambiguity becomes incredibly thick once you remember they're fighting for the same thing in the same way. Altair can justify his actions just as much as any of nine men, but he's still murdering strangers because he thinks their death will benefit the land. Not just them, but hundreds of soldiers who were really just fighting for their culture and beliefs.

At the beginning of the game, he is just as horrific as Majd Addin in his views, as are most of the other assassins. Remember how the bureau leaders just shrug at his questions and say, "Al Mualim commamds it."

Just because the Templars work on a grander scale does noty excuse the Assassins anymore for their Animal Farm mentality towards assassination. Also, Al Mualim is worse than any Templar in the game, even Majd Addin. Everyone in the game desires a better world in some way. Only Al Mualim, the role model for Assassin, 'refuses to share'.

X10J
11-06-2009, 11:01 PM
"And yet you'd kill us all. For no other reason than it was asked of you."-Talal

yup that's Altair for you. at least at the beginning of the game.

Aron Man
11-07-2009, 02:12 AM
i remember one of the conspiracy theories was that jfk was going to expose the "enlightened ones" or illuminati and was killed for it. maybe it shows that lee was a templar.

guipit
11-07-2009, 02:23 AM
if you watch Zeitgeist they talk about the conspirators JFK was trying to uncover if they were templar in origin that I am uncertain

com199
11-07-2009, 05:57 AM
And maybe, Just maybe that is NOT Lee Harvey Oswald. It wouldn't make sense. According to the conspiracies, he didn't even kill JFK, he was just the fall guy. He made a shot with an old rifle with next to no experience with guns that the best rifleman in the WORLD couldn't make with the BEST GUNS in the WORLD. This game is about Assassins, not people who say they did it then get killed by a gunman.

com199
11-07-2009, 06:02 AM
Originally posted by Iron_Man001:
i remember one of the conspiracy theories was that jfk was going to expose the "enlightened ones" or illuminati and was killed for it. maybe it shows that lee was a templar.

And that is part of the conspiracy. You guys have never heard of the "2 shooters on the grassy knoll" theory?

El_Sjietah
11-07-2009, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by com199:
And maybe, Just maybe that is NOT Lee Harvey Oswald. It wouldn't make sense. According to the conspiracies, he didn't even kill JFK, he was just the fall guy. He made a shot with an old rifle with next to no experience with guns that the best rifleman in the WORLD couldn't make with the BEST GUNS in the WORLD. This game is about Assassins, not people who say they did it then get killed by a gunman.

Maybe they keep the real truth in that safe. A dossier about what really happened wouldn't be complete without at least some details about Oswald's involvement, whether he's the actual killer or not.

Xanatos2007
11-07-2009, 06:41 AM
I think this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ycweg88Ong) should explain things.

An_Idea
11-07-2009, 10:43 AM
lol

Serenity9066
11-07-2009, 11:01 AM
Lalala lalala. *wanders in and drops some two cents*

IT'S A VIDEO GAME.

*wanders back out* Trala lala.

Choopius
11-07-2009, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by com199:
And maybe, Just maybe that is NOT Lee Harvey Oswald. It wouldn't make sense. According to the conspiracies, he didn't even kill JFK, he was just the fall guy. He made a shot with an old rifle with next to no experience with guns that the best rifleman in the WORLD couldn't make with the BEST GUNS in the WORLD. This game is about Assassins, not people who say they did it then get killed by a gunman.


Not trying to be mean but having studied the Kennedy Assassination a lot of what you said is incorrect.


"maybe that is NOT Lee Harvey Oswald."

- That is MOST DEFINITELY Lee Harvey Oswald. I am 100% sure of that.


"He made a shot with an old rifle"

- It was actually a brand new Mannlicher Carcano rifle that he purchased in March of 1963. 7 months before the assassination.


"with next to no experience with guns"

- Lee was actually a certified US Marine "Sharpshooter".


"that the best rifleman in the WORLD couldn't make with the BEST GUNS in the WORLD"

- The shot has been re-created a number of times with similar results. Most recently on a Discovery Chanel show that took into account wind direction and many of the other various factors. It also proved successful.

RipYourSpineOut
11-07-2009, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by Serenity9066:
Lalala lalala. *wanders in and drops some two cents*

IT'S A VIDEO GAME.

*wanders back out* Trala lala.

This.

Ubisoft will explain everything in AC2 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<span class="ev_code_WHITE">or maybe AC3 :O</span>

davidov
11-07-2009, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by LaurenIsSoMosh:
Where are we getting the idea 'Heroic Assassin?'

Choopius, relax. JFK is a very dear part of American history and memory, and I know Ubisoft won't disrespect that.

Hence Sam shooting in the Capitol Park and the destroyed White House in Conviction...


Originally posted by Tetsou88
Or point out the fact that Oswald was an Assassin, but was framed by the Templars(which is one"theory")

Yeah, but Oswald killed Kennedy with a sniper, he didn't roll up on him and stabbed him in the neck... Although the sniper is just a 20th century replacement for a throwing knife.

Edengoth
11-07-2009, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by UchihaKarasu:
I really like the fact that at the end of the game there wasn't a "good" side. And Altair didn't really know who to trust anymore so he decided to do what he believed was right, valuing the human ability of free-will over the possibility of "true" peace.
By the end of the game he is much wiser and I love the attachment that he writes. ( I hope it comes up in AC2, possibly the codex)

A) I love your sig. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif
B) Didn't Altair get "One Ring Syndrome" and basically write that he couldn't destroy his preciou-...ahem, the Piece of Eden? (Is it Piece or Peace?) I liked the attachment, too, but it seemed like Altair was well on his way to being consumed by the same thing that consumed Al Mualim and the Templars.

UchihaKarasu
11-07-2009, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by Edengoth:
A) I love your sig. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif
B) Didn't Altair get "One Ring Syndrome" and basically write that he couldn't destroy his preciou-...ahem, the Piece of Eden? (Is it Piece or Peace?) I liked the attachment, too, but it seemed like Altair was well on his way to being consumed by the same thing that consumed Al Mualim and the Templars.

I love my sig too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif

I dunno, they never explain that. We might find out eventually though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

cgdemon894
11-07-2009, 05:06 PM
hmmm is it possible that altair might have been consumed by the piece of eden and lived through all that time until ezio's time to be this evil bird man hell bent on destruction and hay? hmmmm.....

Edengoth
11-07-2009, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by zabrak94:
hmmm is it possible that altair might have been consumed by the piece of eden and lived through all that time until ezio's time to be this evil bird man hell bent on destruction and hay? hmmmm.....
This is why we need a comment-rating system.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

godsmack_darius
11-07-2009, 06:13 PM
No confirmation on it being Lee Harvey Oswald,

Although, wht I found interesting was that their was a question on Assassins creed 2 on the net somewhere, that gets you into a competition to get Assassins creed 2 black edition, and the question you have to answer to enter, is who killed JFK?

And it gives you 3 answers, one of them Lee Harvey Oswald

Serenity9066
11-07-2009, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by godsmack_darius:
No confirmation on it being Lee Harvey Oswald,

Although, wht I found interesting was that their was a question on Assassins creed 2 on the net somewhere, that gets you into a competition to get Assassins creed 2 black edition, and the question you have to answer to enter, is who killed JFK?

And it gives you 3 answers, one of them Lee Harvey Oswald

Games that are fun AND educational! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Choopius
11-07-2009, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by godsmack_darius:
No confirmation on it being Lee Harvey Oswald,

Although, wht I found interesting was that their was a question on Assassins creed 2 on the net somewhere, that gets you into a competition to get Assassins creed 2 black edition, and the question you have to answer to enter, is who killed JFK?

And it gives you 3 answers, one of them Lee Harvey Oswald

I'll confirm it for you. That is DEFINITELY Lee Harvey Oswald.

I am 100% sure of it. And if you don't think it's him just look at the other pictures around his.

JudgeQwerty
11-07-2009, 08:12 PM
To be honest, the whole thing is quite shady. He denied his involvement and was murdered only two days later by another lone, motiveless gunman. I'm not suggesting that Nixon ordered the hit, I'm just saying the whole affair is quite peculiar.

LaurenIsSoMosh
11-07-2009, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by davidov:
Hence Sam shooting in the Capitol Park and the destroyed White House in Conviction... Okay, let me rephrase that:

Team AC wouldn't disrespect that.

Whereas Assassin's Creed has evolved to be a mature, valuable, classic, and timeless experience, ConViction has kind of devolved from a mature and valuable experience into one of those Harrison Ford blockbusters that you forget in a few hours...