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XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 04:31 AM
I am absolutely baffled by this image that I took while flying with my squad over the Crimea. After a disasterous engagement leaving all of my four 190s quickly destroyed by attacking P-39s, I rammed one of them in a desperate attempt to keep them away from the bombers. I ended up bailing out and the severly damaged P-39 landed back at base missing his rudder and half of his elevator! Judge for yourself and tell me how this could even be possible:

http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/P39.JPG


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http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/109K.jpg


I STILL love my 109!



Message Edited on 08/02/0309:10PM by MackZ

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 04:31 AM
I am absolutely baffled by this image that I took while flying with my squad over the Crimea. After a disasterous engagement leaving all of my four 190s quickly destroyed by attacking P-39s, I rammed one of them in a desperate attempt to keep them away from the bombers. I ended up bailing out and the severly damaged P-39 landed back at base missing his rudder and half of his elevator! Judge for yourself and tell me how this could even be possible:

http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/P39.JPG


---------------------------------------
http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/109K.jpg


I STILL love my 109!



Message Edited on 08/02/0309:10PM by MackZ

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 04:43 AM
Answer to your question: The AI aircraft model is simplified interms of the Physics involved, to keep framerates playable.
Suggestion : Fly mostly online, or wait for a few years until PCs come up to the point where we can have fully modelled AI.



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XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 04:50 AM
You should be able to fly without your rudder, I wouldn't like to try since the aircraft would be very unstable and I think loosing one of your elevators wouldn't hurt neither but that's one thing I never hope to try out, it would be most unstable in all sort of manouvers but handling it gently should bring you down in one piece, it won't be a thumbs up landing though.

A landing you can walk away from is a good landing...

If you can use the aircraft again it's a great landing/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

rgds

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 04:57 AM
Yes, I think you can fly like that. What's left of the tail would provide only just enough stability if you weren't too out of shape and you didn't try anything hard. He still has one elevator, and if you look at the wings, he is compensating for the roll from the missing tail.

I've landed with no elevator and no stab before, and I'm not AI. You just need to watch your speed and use flaps to control pitch to some degree. Of course, if you bank a bit, you get in a spin very easily.

But yeah, the simplified flight model probably does make it a tad easier for the ai.

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 04:58 AM
I've actually landed a P-39 in that exact same conditon on the Crimea map. It wasn't pretty, but I set it down in one piece without further damaging the aircraft. Every now and then you get lucky.

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 05:05 AM
I've brought a P-40 home in much worse condition. Probably too wrecked to realistcally fly but it felt good touching down.


Lixma,

Blitzpig.

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 05:22 AM
I don't think the AI is necessarily 'simplified' in the FM. It is just that, while a human pilot will need exceptional precision with his stick to control such a plane, the AI does it easily. With the enhancement in the aggressiveness of the AI in FB, a precision factor also follwed. It was not uncommon seeing average, even veteran level AIs making a mistake in harsh maneuvering and stall out to the ground, but in FB, I've only witnessed rookie levels making mistakes. Anything above that - absolutely no mistake in fine controlling their plane.

In the pure technical sense, the AI is perfect. Their maneuvers are straight out of the text book, clean with precision. A human pilot won't dare pull a difficult evasive maneuver with damaged control surfaces, but the AI can, and will do it.





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XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 05:28 AM
Bnej_03 wrote:
He still has one elevator, and if you
- look at the wings, he is compensating for the roll
- from the missing tail.

The only problem w/that shot is that it's the right elevator missing. The alierons are compensating the wrong way. As it is, the left elevator would cause the plane to roll somewhat to the right. The pilot would need to hold the stick to his left to compensate. Also the rudder would need to be held to the left. And...that would be one tired pilot if and when he got home.



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XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 05:28 AM
Lixma wrote:
- I've brought a P-40 home in much worse condition.
- Probably too wrecked to realistcally fly but it felt
- good touching down.


True... I once managed the same thing in a 109... I didn't know I had lost it until I landed and realized I couldn't steer on the runway... I was lucky, my engine was badly hit and as I touched the runway it seized too.

Needless to say, I felt good about myself. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



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XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 05:29 AM
ive landed a rudderless P-39 before .......

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 05:31 AM
Lol. I have landed a LOT worse. I had a track in IL2 of me landing a TAILLESS P-39. I broke off my landing gear, and landed SIDEWAYS, but hay. It got me home alive!!!

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XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 05:32 AM
Heh,heh...fly a Stuka and see what you come home with/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

adlabs6
08-03-2003, 05:37 AM
You can do some wierd things in FB, most of which probably couldn't be done in real life. I landed this Me262 in an online game, using flaps and throttle to control pitch:

http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/bin/262_NoTail_Land.JPG


AI is even more bizarre, especially during landing.

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XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 05:40 AM
Ok, ok. I can accept the fact that it is possible to fly in such conditions (with great difficulty) but to make a three point landing!!!???? I have managed to fly things home in much worse condition but not actually land them successfully like this one time over Stalingrad in my 109 G2 when I took a direct hit to my engine and to my right aileron. I somehow managed to get it home but I had to belly up. I guess I have to work on my landings a bit /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Adlabs 6, I am in absolute awe that you could land a 262 like that /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

---------------------------------------
http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/109K.jpg


I STILL love my 109!



Message Edited on 08/02/0309:44PM by MackZ

Tully__
08-03-2003, 10:06 AM
I've landed aircraft safely with more damage than that. Not often and rarely succesfully, but I've done it.

On the whole I wouldn't recommend ramming as a tactic until you're very familiar with the collision modelling in this game, a ram from behind is more often than not your own undoing. I'm surprised you did him any damage at all.

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XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 10:18 AM
Ever see the photo of a P-47 that came back missing his right wing? 2/3's of his wing was torn off when he hit a chimney on a straifing run (Killed a Tiger tank too!) and he flew it home. Also, a TBA Avenger came back to its carrier with its back half crumpled. I have seen some amazing photo's of WWII battledamage. Go check out some B-17 battledamage photo's. Its stranger then the stuff I seen make it home in FB.

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XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 12:58 PM
i have got my bf 109 f4 like that home.

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XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 01:19 PM
Hi : kweassa


interesting thought but...

I have read on the forum a few times that the AI does not take Control damage, so would say that, that difficult evasive maneuver was not all that HARD for the AI, since it wasn't being done with damaged control surfaces

which I think may explan the Pic also,the AI didn't need the damaged parts so was able to fly and land okay, and as somebody else pointed out about the controls at the time of the pic, they may not be "trying" to the trim the plane, but to do something else (start a bank, or make a turn)


<In the pure technical sense, the AI is perfect. Their maneuvers are straight out of the text book, clean with precision. A human pilot won't dare pull a difficult evasive maneuver with damaged control surfaces, but the AI can, and will do it. >

HARD_Sarge

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 06:54 PM
Gibbage1 wrote:


.... a TBA Avenger
- came back to its carrier with its back half
- crumpled. I have seen some amazing photo's of WWII
- battledamage.


This one Gib? If not add it to the list. This pic astounds me.

http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/nightschpanker/avengera.jpg


It's only funny til someone loses an eye....then it's hilarious


http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/nightschpanker/usp266.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 07:03 PM
you can see that aircraft's right airelon compensating for the damage . . .

But I don't see how that could reman flyable.

a fun side note: I've had my rudder torn clean off before and kept dogfighting . . .

The problem is this: when you bank 90 degrees to turn your tail starts to fall because nothing is holding it up . . . it will drop about 20 degrees and hang there, but sudden changess will lead to a flat spin.

btw, my rudder took a 109's wing down with it! arrrr!

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 07:21 PM
Ive landed with simular damage in Il2

in a p39 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 05:36 PM
I've also landed a P-39 in pretty much the same(if not a little worse) condition. I was flying online in original Il-2 and someone decided to give me a burst with Mk-108. Well I messed up on my first approach to the runway, and then did a go around(very slow mind you) during which some another enemy pilot thought he would finish me off and get the kill. Amazingly my plane hung together until someone chased him off and I managed to make a decent landing. So no, its not impossible to land with that kind of damage.

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 09:45 PM
Lixma wrote:
- I've brought a P-40 home in much worse condition.
- Probably too wrecked to realistcally fly but it felt
- good touching down.




***********************************************

I gotta add to the chorus and say I landed a P-40 in almost that exact condition. This was after a particularly devastating ambush by four hard-assed Focke Wolves. I even saved the track I was that pleased with myself (and it was an exciting fight). Obviously we`re asking a bit much to want the AI to model such a degree of difficulty like that of a human when landing.

I`m always impressed with the AI when compared to many other sims that just instantly crash the plane once damaged.

At least IL2/FB TRIES to save their aircraft. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 10:03 PM
nice photos, man that would be scary being in that plane when it landed
i found some interesting photos
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/bombers/b17g-33.jpg

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/bombers/b17g-37c.jpg

http://www.381st.org/images/shooshoo-02.jpg

(b-17s must be great target practice or something)
http://www.web-birds.com/9th/404/flak.jpg

(i could do this all day but im not)

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XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 02:31 PM
I've used my plane to bring down enemy planes when I'm out ammo by clipping their wing with my rudder. It only works once and the one thing that you have to remember is to be gentle with the controls. If you stall and get into a spin there is no way to recover. I learned that the hard way. I was flying a BF-109F4 and I lost an elevator and rudder, had big holes in my wings and the the tail was held on with only a thin strip of metal, the rest had all been shot away. I made it back to base and landed where the engine finally seized. It wasn't pretty but I felt like I had been put through the ringer and was very relieved to finally be back on the ground.

Fireman

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 03:47 PM
its a chalange to land without elevators, ive done it (lets just say any landing you can walk away from...)

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XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 04:18 PM
rexcarrs wrote:
-
- Bnej_03 wrote:
- He still has one elevator, and if you
-- look at the wings, he is compensating for the roll
-- from the missing tail.
-
- The only problem w/that shot is that it's the right
- elevator missing. The alierons are compensating the
- wrong way. As it is, the left elevator would cause
- the plane to roll somewhat to the right. The pilot
- would need to hold the stick to his left to
- compensate. Also the rudder would need to be held
- to the left. And...that would be one tired pilot if
- and when he got home.


Actually that is correct Rex....left aileron down right aileron up..adding lift to the right side.. I have also flown like that in a P-39..as lomg as you stay level and dont go into a stall and line up your approach in a wide arc you should be able to land like that. ..in fact I was once shot up like tah and i had a missing aileron and holes in the wing to boot.....I dont remember which side it was on...

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