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Chevy350
09-07-2008, 06:05 PM
Sorry if this sounds dumb or ignorant, but what was the p47 for? Like why did they make it?. it seems to me like the mustang does EVERYTHING better than the p47 and i just cant figure out if im just not flying it right or what? I know how to b&z, i fly fw190s and mustangs all the time, and i just dont see whats good about the p47

Wildnoob
09-07-2008, 06:13 PM
the P-47 is very suitable for virtually every task.

it's superior to the P-51 in ground attack because it have an air cooled engine, wich alongside with it's powerful engine and armor can be a plane really thougth to bring down by AAA.

while the P-51 have an liquid cool engine, and a very expose radiator. minimal damage on the radiator can stop the engine from being cooled and the engine will stop working.

it also have 2 more machine guns.

FoolTrottel
09-07-2008, 06:16 PM
and i just dont see whats good about the p47
Compared to P51?
One thing comes to mind: Ground Pounding.
Second: Take a beating, get home.
Third: Take another beating, still get home.

Things a P51 is just not good at...

Chevy350
09-07-2008, 06:23 PM
i actually find it easier to attack ground with the mustang because i can see around the front better. And i didnt really think about it being alot harder to shoot down, but that is true so thats a plus. but really as far as fighting planes, which i do alot more often than attacking ground, i just dont see why they needed a p47 if they had the mustang

berg417448
09-07-2008, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by Chevy350:
i actually find it easier to attack ground with the mustang because i can see around the front better. And i didnt really think about it being alot harder to shoot down, but that is true so thats a plus. but really as far as fighting planes, which i do alot more often than attacking ground, i just dont see why they needed a p47 if they had the mustang

They didn't have the Merlin powered Mustang when the P-47 was first sent into combat. The Allison powered mustangs had inferior high altitude performance. The P-47 was a fast high altitude performer.

Interestingly enough, I've spoken to a couple real WWII USAF pilots who flew both planes in the war and they both preferred the P-47.

R_Target
09-07-2008, 06:31 PM
P-47 was designed for high altitude.

Bearcat99
09-07-2008, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by berg417448:
Interestingly enough, I've spoken to a couple real WWII USAF pilots who flew both planes in the war and they both preferred the P-47.

Probably because unlike in this sim.. in real life getting home alive is more important.

Marcel_Albert
09-07-2008, 08:18 PM
Very true Bearcat , also P-47 is God uphigh above 6-7000 meters , i have the impression the D27 is as fast as the Mustang at high alt , better armed , better diver , tougher and also more manoeuvrable at high speed , i really prefer to use the Jug in B-17's high altitude escort missions . I had read a long time ago that one of the reason why they replaced some P-47's by Mustangs for these long escorting missions was that it had more range than the Thunderbolt , not necessarily because it was inferior for this task , could be wrong memory from my part though cause P-51 B&C were probably quite faster up high than Razorbacks

VW-IceFire
09-07-2008, 09:15 PM
Well...for one the P-47 was ready for widespread use before the P-51 was. It was around for many months before the P-51B with a Merlin engine showed up. Compare the early P-47D versus the P-51A or Mustang Mark I or II and the P-47D has advantages for altitude and performance.

Once the Mustang came on in strength as a long range escort fighter the Thunderbolt became a more tactical fighter. Whoever thought of putting bombs and rockets on it was a genius...because really it was an incredibly tough plane with lots of firepower, good capacity for carrying bombs and very fast and capable once the external stores were removed.

The Thunderbolt up high was quite fast...similar to the Mustang but without the range. Certainly better than all but a few types in WWII at high altitudes.

Buzzsaw-
09-07-2008, 09:23 PM
Salute

For a lot of people, the P-47 is a mystery.

They don't understand it, don't know how to fly it to its strengths, so they dismiss it as useless.

In fact, the P-47 when flown correctly is a very effective aircraft.

Unfortunately, there is only one P-47 in the game which really lives up the real-life performance of the aircraft, that being the P-47D-27 1944, which would be approx. equal to the P-47D's flying in 1944. (for 1945 performance, we'd need the P-47M or P-47N) All the other P-47's are pretty much set to factory power levels, which are only relevant to 1943 era combat. Unless you are matched up versus 109G6 Early or 190A5's, don't expect to be really competitive in the earlier model P-47's. You can be successful, but it requires a lot of discipline.

Anyway, if your server has a lineup which includes the late P-47D, then you are in a position to really do well.

First thing to do is to CLIMB. For the P-47 pilot especially, 'Altitude is life'.

All variants of P-47s perform best at altitudes over 4500 meters, in fact, it really comes into its own at 9000 meters. The P-47 is the fastest Allied piston engined aircraft at 9000 meters, and is faster and will outclimb most of the German aircraft, with the exception of the TA-152H, which of course, saw combat in tiny numbers, only approx. 30. In an historical server matchup, we wouldn't see TA-152's, or they would be limited to one or two aircraft available.

Of course, very few people fly up at 9000 meters, so what's the point in gaining all that altitude?

Fortunately, in most cases, because of the airquake nature of most servers, most people don't climb over 4000 meters, so a P-47 positioned at 5-6000 is going to be in a very good position to take advantage of the other strong point of the aircraft, namely its dive acceleration, max. dive speed, and zoom climb.

Using these attributes, a lone wolf P-47 can do very well, simply cruising the upper stratisphere in the enemy's rear area, watching for targets of opportunity, and using single pass, diving attacks to bounce them. Whenever cruising in such a fashion, the P-47 pilot should make sure he is the highest aircraft in the sky. He should not let Blue aircraft get higher than him.

The P-47 is still maneuverable with all its parts intact at speeds in the area of 850-900 kph, a speed very easily attainable in a relatively short time in a dive from 6000 meters, and at those speeds, it closes incredibly quickly on a target, which might have been 10,000 meters distant when it was first spotted. With guns set out to a longer range convergence, (300-350 meters) loaded with the 'extra ammunition' option, and with its 'no tracer visible' .50 cals, the P-47 can start firing at quite a distance without its victim noticing, adjusting aim, and closing to convergence, at which range its eight .50 cals are capable of either taking off a wing or destroying an engine relatively easily. In most instances, diving to slightly below the altitude of the target, and then beginning a slow zoom towards its underside is the best approach. The advantage of this is that on no external view servers, the opponent is not going to spot your approach.

Once the attack pass has been made, the P-47 pilot must then pull smoothly into a zoom, and attempt to regain as much of the lost altitude as possible. He should not stay around to dogfight, or to survey the damage he might have done. Especially when flying in the enemy's rear areas, this is a recipe for getting swarmed by many angry Blues.

Smoothness is the key in flying the P-47. Pullouts must be made gradual and at low G's, gently bringing the nose up till it is vertical.

Following an attack, the P-47 should climb to regain an altitude which places it above other enemy aircraft, thus positioning itself for another attack.

The above style of flying will work for pilots who are not very experienced in flying the P-47, but for those who are experts, it is possible to fight the aircraft at closer quarters, using the same tactics as a FW-190 pilot might use.

Those tactics work best when there is a team of P-47's flying together. Then it is possible to use tactics such as 'Drag and Bag', 'Rope a Dope', etc.

Perhaps the best team tactic is alternating attacks from altitude. This involves two P-47's at higher altitude, orbiting their target on opposite sides of the same circle. At a opportune moment, one P-47 initiates a diving attack, followed a approx. 10 seconds later by the second P-47. The target will turn to avoid the first attack, sometimes will zoom to try to get a return shot, in both cases, thereby presenting itself as a good target to the second attacking P-47. Both P-47's zoom back to altitude after making their attacks.

At certain altitudes, and versus certain aircraft types, P-47's can fight at the same altitude as their opposition.

As mentioned, at 9000 meters, almost nothing will match the P-47, but at 5000 meters, exercising flight discipline, it is possible to use the aircraft's speed against opposition such as the 109 or 190A's. Once again, smoothness is the key, gentle low G turns or zooms, maximizing of altitude gain.

In this type of combat, head on passes are common, and for the P-47, with its big ammo load, accurate weapons, and convergence set to 300-350 meters, it is possible to engage opponents in headons at ranges where their weapons are ineffective, and yours are hitting. .50 cals can quite easily inflict damage which will take out an opponents engine. The key is to open fire at long range, (aim above the nose) quite a bit before convergence, and then to go into evasive mode once you hit your convergence range. Don't hold the firing pass till their weapons get into range, that will only allow them to get a chance to hit back. A couple of low G rolls will usually get you past the opponent. However, with this in mind, in many cases, when you start opening fire at long ranges, the opponent, especially a 109, will often go into evasive maneuvers themselves, giving you the opportunity to fire longer.

For the real expert, and there are a number out there, (don't count myself among them) it is possible to dogfight the P-47D-27 Late at even lower altitudes. For those learning their trade, I would suggest starting with the easier combat tactics. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

steiner562
09-07-2008, 09:34 PM
Excellent post Buzzsaw. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Buzzsaw-
09-07-2008, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by Marcel_Albert:I had read a long time ago that one of the reason why they replaced some P-47's by Mustangs for these long escorting missions was that it had more range than the Thunderbolt

This was the main reason the P-47 was replaced by the P-51. P-51's could escort to any target in Europe, including Eastern Europe and Czechslovakia, P-47's could only stretch their range to Berlin, and only with later models, and with a very short loiter time.

I have read a number of accounts by pilots who flew both P-47's and P-51's in the escort role, and their comment was that the only reason they preferred the P-51 was that it allowed them a higher chance of getting into combat with Germans, since P-51's were assigned the final leg of the escort route, and interceptions were more common just before the target. (multiple escort Fighter Groups were used to escort the same group of bombers, with an initial escort group being relieved by a second about 1/2 way through the escort) As far as comfort, speed, and armament, they preferred the P-47.

The P-47 was faster than the P-51 at the altitudes the escorts typically operated at, that being 30,000 plus feet. The aircooled Pratt and Whitney R-2800 engine was also far more durable than the water cooled licence built Packard Merlin that the P-51 used, and was more likely to get you home.

The loss rate per sortie in WWII for the P-47 was far less than the P-51 or P-38, despite the fact that the aircraft was almost entirely used in the ground attack role after the summer of '44. (ground attack Squadrons had much higher casualties than escort Squadrons in WWII) That is a testament to its durability.

Buzzsaw-
09-07-2008, 10:21 PM
Salute

I didn't talk about maneuvering with the P-47, or what to do in an emergency.

First of all, a general rule of thumb for a P-47 pilot, is 'DON'T TURN WITH YOUR OPPONENT'. Make a pass, and keep going.

But that is not completely true. In certain situations, a P-47 can turn with nearly any aircraft in the game.

That would be at high speed.

If your opponent gets tired of you booming and zooming him, or getting nailed in headons, and dives away, and you are sure he's not leading you into a trap, then feel free to follow. Because once you get up over 500 kph you will be able to turn with him, in fact, if the speeds go higher and you are chasing a 109, you will turn better than him. Plus of course, you are going to catch up to him, unless perhaps, your opponent is in a 190D.

If the shoe is on the other foot, and YOU are in trouble, then your best tactic is to dive away, IF you have enough altitude. (this is where the 'Altitude is life' crede comes in... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

The P-47 can comfortably dive to speeds which will have most of your opponents losing wings or other parts. Plus once you pull out, the P-47 can maintain its high speed very well in the level.

Here's a trick: When you are in trouble, shut your radiator, hit WEP and ignore the 'engine overheat' warning. The P-47's engine is very tough, a little overheating doesn't do much harm to it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I have run a P-47 with the overheat message for 5 minutes at WEP without any damage that I could notice. (although this was with the Rad open to a setting of 6 after a couple minutes shut) This is actually quite historically accurate. Pratt and Whitney did a test of a P-47 engine, ran it for 300 hours straight at WEP power. It had ZERO mechanical problems.

If you are being followed a some distance by an opponent, but one who is just within gun range, it is also surprising how much damage a P-47 can take and still stay in the air. Just keep rolling back and forth to throw off his aim, and you can often run the opponent out of ammo. Don't turn, that gives him a clear shot at your wings, and he can knock those off.

If you are forced to turn with your opponent, then going right down to landing flaps and scissoring can work surprisingly well. I have outmaneuvered 190A4's and A5's in a P-47D10 using landing flaps. Same applies to the P-47D-27 Late versus 190D's. Of course, that was with a P-47 with low fuel, who knows what the enemy's fuel load was. Do at your own risk... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

109's are usually impossible to outturn at low speeds, (unless you have a BIG 'e' advantage) the best tactic is to get the speed up to a high level, and then start to maneuver. Usually you can lose them with a couple of quick rolls and turns.

In all turn situations, the use of combat flaps can improve your aircraft's response, at BOTH low and high speeds. But in both situations it is important to use them for only short periods, drop them for a few seconds, then retract. Otherwise you will bleed too much speed.

All this talk about turning should not cloud the reality for this aircraft. Speed is very important, and in most situations, you don't turn. Save it for the moment when you can get the killer shot. Normally you don't follow an opponent through more than 90 degrees.

In most situations where I want to reverse my direction, I use a vertical maneuver to do so, either a zoom into a hammerhead, an immelman or a wingover. Of course, you don't do that when someone is close behind. A vertical reversal gains altitude to at least partially offset the speed bleed from pulling G's.

And keep in mind: "Altitude is life".

Freiwillige
09-08-2008, 12:14 AM
It wasnt because of any real lack of ability that the 47's got surpassed by the Mustang.
It was its range plain and simple. The 47's flying out England could not even travel half the distance of a fully fueled Mustang. I think it could fly roughly to Amsterdam before turning around. But in Aerial combat the 47's did quite well against the Luftwaffe at most altitudes proving equall to the best Luftwaffe birds in 43'. Hub Zemke's wolfpack is an example of a good use of the aircraft. The supercharger that made up the bottom half of the 47 (Thats why it is so large) pumped out 2,000 hp at 1,000 feet to 30,000 feet.
Plus keep in mind that 8 .50 cals was damn destructive vs fighters and thats two or four more than the mustang depending on the version of mustang. This game does not nor has never done the American aircraft justice especially the P-47!

Skycat_2
09-08-2008, 12:58 AM
On the eve of America's entry into the war the P-47 was conceived as the Army's 'next generation' high-altitude pursuit fighter. It was designed to intercept invading air forces, hence the big, powerful radial engine, turbo-powered supercharger and heavy armament. Range wasn't a primary design concern and this became a problem later when the P-47 was assigned bomber escort duties over Europe. Despite continuous design improvements, like increasing the Thunderbolt's internal fuel capacity, it simply couldn't go as deep into Europe as the B-17s and B-24s it was supposed to protect.

I think this Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-51) sums up the emergence of the P-51 as an escort fighter very well:
The Lockheed P-38 Lightning had the range to escort the bombers, but was available in very limited numbers in the European theater due to its Allison engines proving difficult to maintain. With the extensive use of the P-38 in the Pacific Theater of Operations, where its twin engines were deemed vital to long-range "over-water" operations, nearly all European-based P-38 units converted to the P-51 in 1944. The Republic P-47 Thunderbolt was capable of meeting the Luftwaffe on more than even terms, but did not at the time have sufficient range. The Mustang changed all that. In general terms, the Mustang was at least as simple as other aircraft of its era. It used a single, well-understood, reliable engine, and had internal space for a huge fuel load. With external fuel tanks, it could accompany the bombers all the way to Germany and back.

Enough P-51s became available to the 8th and 9th Air Forces in the winter of 1943-44, and when the Pointblank offensive resumed in early 1944, matters changed dramatically. The P-51 proved perfect for the task of escorting bombers all the way to the deepest targets, thus complementing the more numerous P-47s until sufficient Mustangs became available. The Eighth Air Force immediately began to switch its fighter groups to the Mustang, first exchanging arriving P-47 groups for those of the Ninth Air Force using P-51s, then gradually converted its Thunderbolt and Lightning groups until by the end of the year 14 of its 15 groups flew the Mustang.

thetrooper1950
09-08-2008, 05:55 AM
For a good read about the P47 pick up a copy of Hell Hawks by Robert E Dorr and Thomas D Jones. It's a great read!!

Clipper_51
09-08-2008, 06:54 AM
The OP was sort of on the money. The 51 was replacing the 47 as the prime escort fighter in the 8th AF.

There are also tons of accounts of pilots (check the 354th) who flew both. Most favored the Mustang, and for good reason. Except above 25,000' it was superior to the P=47 IRL and in the game. It's competitive with it above that alt too. Basically a toss up.

Jug fans have all sorts of techniques on what to do when a Jerry gets on your six. Here's you best solution, keep flying your Mustang and you're less likely to have to worry about having one there in the first place. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Mr_Zooly
09-08-2008, 02:50 PM
The Jug was originally conceived as a lightwieght fighter that gained a little weight, but in the game I have been appreciative of its ruggedness.

LEXX_Luthor
09-08-2008, 06:37 PM
The real life P-47 was made by Russians, very tough, can survive.

...don't know about the game -47 though. Never flew it much. I did do a basic DM test, parked TB-3 AI gunners shooting at spawning aircraft nearby. P-47 caught fire first, even before Ki-84 and Bf-109. But that was many Patches ago.

RepublicofTexas
09-08-2008, 09:02 PM
"No tracer visable"

TELL ME HOW!!!!!

WTE_Galway
09-08-2008, 09:15 PM
park behind a Betty in both ... then see which one is still there a minute or so later

P.FunkAdelic
09-09-2008, 09:30 AM
Anyone got any tracks demonstrating the better side of the P-47? Swooping down on nazzies and and such.

Altamov_Steppes
09-10-2008, 06:30 PM
Here are just a few of the P-47's good points performance wise

Good advice is to refer to the il-2 Aircraft Guide to view the P-47s instrument panel.

P-47 Power
In Objects View in game it mentions that the 47D series have the TURBO-supercharged engine (my emphasis). You will see a gauge for the turbo RPM in the upper right of the instrument console. This placement is significant in that normal supercharged engines don't have this gauge and consequently the RPM gauge and the Manifold Pressure Gauge are usually placed next to each other in some way so that the pilot can monitor both almost instantly in such aircraft. This the pilot in such an aircraft needs to do when manipulating a variable pitch propellor (which the P-47 has also).
In the P-47 the Manifold Pressure Gauge and the RPM gauage are still placed close together but it also has the turbo RPM gauge.
What this all means is that the pilot of a P-47 does not have to keep the Manifold pressure in a certain ratio to the RPM when manipulating the variable pitch propellor and this frees the pilot to concentrate on other things in combat
This is an enormous advantage and the turbo-supercharging gives the P-47 huge amounts of performance

turning the P-47
angle of bank is in absolute ratio to speed. So if you need to turn tighter - slow down on any adjustment of bank angle. If you want to turn fast - increase speed and angle of bank.

drawback
The 'paddle prop' of the P-47 is used to enhance performance but it will have a lower lift/drag ratio compared to a thinner propellor balde if it (in fact) has a bigger camber on the propellor blade.
The P-47 also has a large propellor and may suffer 'compressibility' at the tips at times (tips teaching the speed of sound). this would cause excessive noise and loss of propellor efficiency.

If these things are adequately modelled in the game then therin lies your disatisfaction with the P-47.

I hope this has been a little help in realising how to go about getting the best out of the P-47.

Regards,
KT

M_Gunz
09-11-2008, 03:53 AM
Originally posted by Mr_Zooly:
The Jug was originally conceived as a lightwieght fighter that gained a little weight, but in the game I have been appreciative of its ruggedness.

What it started out as was scrapped by the government, orders canceled and new requirements
specified. The P-47 we know was a complete redesign made around the P&W with turbocharger.
They didn't just size the light fighter up and jam the extra bits in.

M_Gunz
09-11-2008, 03:55 AM
Originally posted by Chevy350:
Sorry if this sounds dumb or ignorant, but what was the p47 for? Like why did they make it?. it seems to me like the mustang does EVERYTHING better than the p47 and i just cant figure out if im just not flying it right or what? I know how to b&z, i fly fw190s and mustangs all the time, and i just dont see whats good about the p47

Keep looking and btw, check how many of each was made.

DaddyAck
09-11-2008, 04:28 AM
having the choice between the P.51D and the P.47N at altitude, Certianly it would have to be the P.47N! (Too bad that is not in this sim)8 x .50cals combined with high altitude performance and thick armor. Just does not for some reason share the same glitz and glamour type persona as the P.51 that is held dear by popular "history channel" style arm chair historians.

LEXX_Luthor
09-11-2008, 05:38 AM
Its one of my faves too, but the "usa dogfight channel" crowd would be right here, as -N is not very relevant to historical WW2 air warfare in the field compared to P-51Dora.

Maybe in Next Sim, or a 1947+ strategic strike paid addon or mod for Luthier Korea sim. F-82 and D.H Hornet would be even better for escorting B-50s and Lincolns though.