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PFC_Lilly_01
12-02-2010, 06:17 PM
ok now i dont know about the rest of u but i am extremely ****ed off at the ending of brotherhood especially how lucy is killed now i want to ask everyone what they think about it cuz i hated it i hope Assassins Creed 3 does sumthing about this maybe a new peice of eden to bring her back PLZ COMMENT

NobleBlade305
12-02-2010, 06:58 PM
shes probably ok, the guys at the end didn't seem that mad at desmond

GREAZY_FINGAZZ
12-02-2010, 07:04 PM
The Shroud.

LaCava1
12-02-2010, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by GREAZY_FINGAZZ:
The Shroud.
This

SteelCity999
12-02-2010, 07:10 PM
Pretty sure she's dead...the devs say that a chapter in Desmonds life will close at the end of ACB...which would be Lucy

E-Zekiel
12-02-2010, 07:31 PM
Can you explain "The Shroud"? I have been seeing a lot of references to this in many threads but I don't understand what it's to. A link to info would suffice as well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

GREAZY_FINGAZZ
12-02-2010, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by E-Zekiel:
Can you explain "The Shroud"? I have been seeing a lot of references to this in many threads but I don't understand what it's to. A link to info would suffice as well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Its purpose still unknown although it was likely used to cure illness, wounds, and to resurrect the deceased.

flyingeaglemile
12-02-2010, 08:17 PM
Altair survived being stabbed in the chest, Ezio survived it twice. I`m sure Lucy could of survived.

PFC_Lilly_01
12-02-2010, 08:26 PM
i really think that its stupid killing her off i mean shes the reason he has his identity and i think she will survived at least thats what i hope i mean who doesnt like lucy common lol

Reign
12-02-2010, 08:37 PM
I agree with The Shroud it's refrenced heavily in Project Legacy and used to heal two people I know of from the brink of death.

Here is a pretty good explanation of what The Shroud is exactly.

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/The_Shroud

GREAZY_FINGAZZ
12-02-2010, 08:58 PM
AC3: Desmond relives the memories of another ancestor in search of The Shroud to bring Lucy back.

PolarizedxD
12-02-2010, 08:58 PM
Go with me on this but to me it sounds that the gods want to take control back with this in mind he needs help from 1 other person eve as he is Adam in this instance maybe mow Lucy is eve and was killed so that the evil would drain as she had been brain washed by the cross Templars for so long and barely had a hold on who she was or she is dead so that he can join with the true eve although I am curious as to how they will save the final one and when it will be released with this turn to the story

PolarizedxD
12-02-2010, 09:00 PM
Ahh and side note the achievement says knife in the heart she would die from that Ezio and Altair both were not that serious from the get go and Altair was tricked into thinking he was killed he never even got touched

EnragedCactus1
12-02-2010, 09:06 PM
a sacrifice was needed so i'm pretty sure just stabbing someone is not a sacrifice. Then again stabbing ppl is fun.

GREAZY_FINGAZZ
12-02-2010, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by EnragedCactus1:
a sacrifice was needed so i'm pretty sure just stabbing someone is not a sacrifice. Then again stabbing ppl is fun.
Unless it pierced through her, seeing as the blade is so long, and she is skinny, and that brings The shroud into the game, as it makes <span class="ev_code_GREEN">ZOMBIES</span>!

EnragedCactus1
12-02-2010, 09:16 PM
Unless it pierced through her, seeing as the blade is so long, and she is skinny, and that brings The shroud into the game, as it makes <span class="ev_code_GREEN">ZOMBIES</span>![/QUOTE]

ZOMG ZOMBONIES!!! THAT SOUNDS AWESOME!!!

drizzit986
12-02-2010, 09:32 PM
The Devs hint in the plot anysis that Juno made desmond kill Lucy because the first civilization wants to return and i quote "Only 'she' remains to be found, and Lucy is not the one. Where is Eden and is 'she' Eve, or a decendant of eve?" "she" im guessing most likly is referring to Juno.

SAVMATIC
12-02-2010, 10:14 PM
The above poster is one the right track.
Lucy is DEAD.
Desmond's destiny as the descendant of Adam is to find the descendant of Eve and join with her to reestablish the bloodline of Minerva & Juno's people. Lucy had to die because she was in the way of this.

Driizzy
12-02-2010, 10:24 PM
I seen someone post somewhere about Lucy being pregnant and the blade was aimed at the baby and not Lucy. I dont think it will turn out like this, just thought it was an interesting way to think about it

DGLee12
12-02-2010, 10:54 PM
Lucy was really a Templar double Agent. Right before Desmondio stabs her, Juno says "There is a large dark cross present and it must be removed"

SAVMATIC
12-02-2010, 11:00 PM
Im not 100% sure that Lucy was a Templar pawn at this point, but Juno mentioning the danger of the cross in her presence is hard to ignore. Whether intentionally or not, she was in the way of Desmond finding Eve's decendant and had to be eliminated.

Dougout78
12-03-2010, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by Jaiszon:
Lucy was really a Templar double Agent. Right before Desmondio stabs her, Juno says "There is a large dark cross present and it must be removed"

WOW THANK YOU... someone who actually pays attention to the game dialogue and doesn't just come up with his own stupid theories... I like!

Also... Just because Lucy is stabbed, doesn't mean she is dead...

xsatanicjokerx
12-03-2010, 02:12 AM
Originally posted by flyingeaglemile:
Altair survived being stabbed in the chest, Ezio survived it twice. I`m sure Lucy could of survived. Altair was never stabbed in the chest. He only saw what Al Mualim wanted him to see.

LightRey
12-03-2010, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Jaiszon:
Lucy was really a Templar double Agent. Right before Desmondio stabs her, Juno says "There is a large dark cross present and it must be removed"
That's not true. She only says "The cross darkens the horizon". referring to Those who came before not being able to see the woman Desmond's supposed to find. What she said probably had nothing to do with Lucy.

persiateddy95
12-03-2010, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by xsatanicjokerx:
Altair was never stabbed in the chest. He only saw what Al Mualim wanted him to see.
Wizard.

Krayus Korianis
12-03-2010, 02:16 PM
So no one sat through the credits and saw there was no pool of blood surrounding Lucy?

AssassinVenice
12-03-2010, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by NobleBlade305:
shes probably ok, the guys at the end didn't seem that mad at desmond
They must have operated her cuz "SPOILERS" i think she is pregnant from Desmond.

Anyway i think she's ok. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

rocketxsurgeon
12-03-2010, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by SAVMATIC:
Im not 100% sure that Lucy was a Templar pawn at this point, but Juno mentioning the danger of the cross in her presence is hard to ignore. Whether intentionally or not, she was in the way of Desmond finding Eve's decendant and had to be eliminated.

Lucy may not have been a templar, but say if this future animus thing is correct, someone could be spying through her eyes?

Pattington_Bear
12-03-2010, 02:25 PM
Ezio himself has been stabbed twice in the stomach and survived in a time when medical knowledge was limited.

Killing Lucy was in the best interests of the one's that came before, so the race can be reborn, Desmond must be united with the carrier of "eve" for this to happen and humanity will be enslaved by the OTCB again. A pointless fact, Desmond has the same voice as Adam . Well, we'll wait and see what happens, who knows right?

BUT remember Adam and Eve (the first assassins) betrayed the OTCB and took the PoE away from Eden (the first civilization) , what's to say Desmond and the Eve carrier will not do the same?

Subject 16 talked about finding Eve in Eden, yet Eden was destroyed along with the OTCB, who's to say Eve is a person but instead a manufactured gene?

As well as the never left the animus theory, Desmond may never have stabbed lucy at all, the "bleeding effect" is the beginning of knowledge, which he needs to unlock. He could be hallucinating a future event, like he did with Altair only it was a past event instead.

Another PoE call "The Shroud" could revive her http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_Turin, it is the very shroud used to bring Jesus back from the dead (in AC of course).

It's is not confirmed whether Lucy is dead or alive, so best not say "SHE IS DEAD" without any evidence

E-Zekiel
12-03-2010, 02:58 PM
There is "evidence" she is dead, just not conclusive evidence.
(Note: I do not think she is dead. Just conceding the point.)

I noticed this in the Wiki that seemed a big eye opener for me.

"Mario successfully repelled the attack, and through a confession of Luziano Pezatti, Mario learned that the siege was to gain access to something under Monteriggioni. When Mario and a team of soldiers excavated the well, they found a hidden chamber filled with traps."

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/The_Shroud
(for those who missed the link earlier in the thread)

The well? You remember that red trail you can follow as Desmond? It leads to the well. This is very interesting. Perhaps another huge hint at the Shroud.

GREAZY_FINGAZZ
12-03-2010, 04:22 PM
Desmond finds The Shroud, brings Lucy back, refuses to get freaky with the descendant of Eve, then we go into the next game.

GREAZY_FINGAZZ
12-03-2010, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by GREAZY_FINGAZZ:
Desmond relives the memories of another ancestor to search for The Shroud, finds The Shroud, brings Lucy back, refuses to get freaky with the descendant of Eve, then we go into the next game.

Reign
12-03-2010, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by E-Zekiel:
There is "evidence" she is dead, just not conclusive evidence.
(Note: I do not think she is dead. Just conceding the point.)

I noticed this in the Wiki that seemed a big eye opener for me.

"Mario successfully repelled the attack, and through a confession of Luziano Pezatti, Mario learned that the siege was to gain access to something under Monteriggioni. When Mario and a team of soldiers excavated the well, they found a hidden chamber filled with traps."

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/The_Shroud
(for those who missed the link earlier in the thread)

The well? You remember that red trail you can follow as Desmond? It leads to the well. This is very interesting. Perhaps another huge hint at the Shroud.

This was mentioned in Project Legacy as well, there is a whole mission section dedicated to the well and the traps that were placed in it.

EzioAssassin51
12-03-2010, 05:14 PM
I think it sounds very plausible the whole 'Descendant of Eve' thing, but i doubt she was pregnant/a templar. Perhaps Juno sensed Desmond's feelings for her, and needed to get rid of her, so he wouldn't have a kid with her.

But possibly, the next AC Game (the one that is said to be coming in 2011) could be Desmond using the Animus with William M or whoever, to find the shroud and bring Lucy to life... or maybe while searching for the temples, they find the shroud and bring her back to life??

Tanktric
12-03-2010, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by xsatanicjokerx:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by flyingeaglemile:
Altair survived being stabbed in the chest, Ezio survived it twice. I`m sure Lucy could of survived. Altair was never stabbed in the chest. He only saw what Al Mualim wanted him to see. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

THIS is right on.. Theres been speculation that Juno wanted to kill Lucy because she may be an ancestor of Eve in which their son would save the world(from Subject 16). Its possible Juno is evil and Lucy wasn't a double agent.

Mutley_Rulz
12-03-2010, 05:41 PM
While Juno and 16 seem to think Lucy is a Templar, I still disagree.
Anyways, I'd say she's dead. The "Knife to the Heart" trophy/acheivment could be metaphorical in it's meaning of us being upset - I think it actually describes how Lucy died.

E-Zekiel
12-03-2010, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by Tanktric:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xsatanicjokerx:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by flyingeaglemile:
Altair survived being stabbed in the chest, Ezio survived it twice. I`m sure Lucy could of survived. Altair was never stabbed in the chest. He only saw what Al Mualim wanted him to see. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

THIS is right on.. Theres been speculation that Juno wanted to kill Lucy because she may be an ancestor of Eve in which their son would save the world(from Subject 16). Its possible Juno is evil and Lucy wasn't a double agent. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really think Juno is "evil". Evil in the sense of being on the opposing team, or at least opposing ideals of the assassins/Desmond/whatever.

She is very cold and manipulative. Minerva seemed to genuinely wish for people to be saved.

GREAZY_FINGAZZ
12-03-2010, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by Mutley_Rulz:
While Juno and 16 seem to think Lucy is a Templar, I still disagree.
Anyways, I'd say she's dead. The "Knife to the Heart" trophy/acheivment could be metaphorical in it's meaning of us being upset - I think it actually describes how Lucy died.
Desmond may have killed Lucy, we can be pretty sure he loved her or so, so killing her was like a knife to his heart, as he stabbed her in the stomach.

SAVMATIC
12-03-2010, 06:53 PM
I think some of you are over-speculating parts of the story that we should know for sure. I think its pretty clear Lucy is dead. I just dont see what the point of all that was if shes not dead. Seems kind of stupid for her to get stabbed as the finale to the game, then oh next game shes just chillin', fine. Whether or not she could be revived however, I will leave that possibility open.

SAVMATIC
12-03-2010, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by GREAZY_FINGAZZ:
Desmond finds The Shroud, brings Lucy back, refuses to get freaky with the descendant of Eve, then we go into the next game.
yeah i could dig this.

SAVMATIC
12-03-2010, 06:56 PM
And I dont think they would have both Juno and 16 both making references to her being a Templar and it not be true.

SAVMATIC
12-03-2010, 06:56 PM
Subject 16 may know of the Shroud. Also, Ezio may learn of the Shroud or encounter it.

ROCwd
12-03-2010, 07:02 PM
I too was shocked when Desmond (or Juno controlling Desmond) stabbed Lucy. I've read many plausable theories as to what happens next and I'm inclined to agree with them all, which is what Assassin's Creed does best, keeps people guessing but leaves so many doors open that noone can be sure what happens next. A couple of mine are as follows..

* = relevant to the proceeding brackets.

Obviously, Desmond is taken by someone, possibly the *Templars *(if Lucy was indeed a Templar, which would explain how the mysterious van outside the Villa disappeared after Rebecca sent the e-mail to everybody, including Lucy). This would also leave room for Eve's decendant to be revealed as a *Templar *(Vidic's daughter?) which would be a nice twist.

The other option is of course the mysterious Assassin, William M. He brings Desmond away, they go back to the villa, enter the well, find the shroud, bring Lucy back to life, search for the *rest of the temples *(the well will be one of them given that it contains the shroud), find the other PoE's and stumble across Eve's decendant all within *72 days? *("On the 72nd day before the day of reckoning"- Juno)

I believe either of these are possible although the latter does seem a bit too obvious. Again they are just theories based on what I've seen in the game and what I've learned to anticipate from the AC writers, so bare in mind there are things I've missed here and there so they may not even be possible at all, so please let me know if you spot a flaw in either.

X10J
12-03-2010, 07:09 PM
The templars probably wouldn't care that the animus "made him like this," so I'm thinking they probably didn't take him.

SAVMATIC
12-03-2010, 07:17 PM
Yeah honestly the first time I heard the voices during the credits, I thought that Desmond had been recaptured by the Templars.

One of the voices says "its the only way we can fix this!"...i think we can assume he they are arguing about putting desmond back into an animus but here the question, what do they mean by "fix this".

derekhalo23333
12-03-2010, 07:36 PM
Lucy can not die!!!!!!! She helped desmond throught the story, so she should not die, it was stupid to stab her!!!!!!!

ROCwd
12-03-2010, 07:42 PM
Originally posed by X10J:
The templars probably wouldn't care that the animus "made him like this," so I'm thinking they probably didn't take him.

Perhaps during the credits, Desmond is hallucinating or behaving in a way that makes it difficult for them to communicate with him?


Originally posted by SAVMATIC:
Yeah honestly the first time I heard the voices during the credits, I thought that Desmond had been recaptured by the Templars.

One of the voices says "its the only way we can fix this!"...i think we can assume he they are arguing about putting desmond back into an animus but here the question, what do they mean by "fix this".

Fix this could refer to finding the shroud and "fixing" Lucy, or simple just bringing Desmond back to conciousness?

X10J
12-03-2010, 08:10 PM
"If you refuse we'll put you in a coma and leave you for dead. Truth is that would be our first choice, but this way is faster."-- parphraised from Vidic in AC1

Makes me think they wouldn't need to communicate to much.

ROCwd
12-03-2010, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by X10J:
"If you refuse we'll put you in a coma and leave you for dead. Truth is that would be our first choice, but this way is faster."-- parphraised from Vidic in AC1

Makes me think they wouldn't need to communicate to much.

Perhaps Desmond has somehow fused with the apple and in order to seperate him from it they need to bring Desmond out of whatever state he's in?

X10J
12-03-2010, 08:21 PM
the apple rolls out of his hand.

ROCwd
12-03-2010, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by X10J:
the apple rolls out of his hand.

That it does, you're right. That would have been quite a storyline for the next one though.

X10J
12-03-2010, 08:35 PM
Yup, but I guess that would mean that the events of the last two games would basicaly have been an elaborate way to kill off Lucy.

ROCwd
12-03-2010, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by X10J:
Yup, but I guess that would mean that the events of the last two games would basicaly have been an elaborate way to kill off Lucy.

How so?

X10J
12-03-2010, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by ROCwd:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by X10J:
Yup, but I guess that would mean that the events of the last two games would basicaly have been an elaborate way to kill off Lucy.

How so? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, Minerva we could have seen at abstergo, Rebecca and Shawn haven't been that important, nothing happened in Monterriggioni(probably misspelled) but the triangle message left by Ezio (could have seen that as a memory at abstergo), "the truth" was in abstergo's animus, and abstergo could have brought in Desmond to get access to Juno's apple.

So realy, the main story points in AC2/Brotherhood was Desmond's escping abstergo, being saved from their wrath, joining the assassins, and Lucy's death.

If he goes back to abstergo everything goes out the window but Lucy's death.


Note: I probably missed something, please remind me.

Trevelyan_UK
12-03-2010, 09:10 PM
The shroud idea may not be that great if you interpret that thing that Juno said in the Church when you're jumping about.. something like [OTCB] didn't manage to make a way to preserve life indefinately. IE if the shroud kept you alive or could resurrect you, why could the "Gods" not use it for themselves?

Anyway, I took the cross darkening the horizon thing to mean Lucy or someone there was a templar.

X10J
12-03-2010, 09:28 PM
True.

ROCwd
12-03-2010, 09:55 PM
In the end of AC1/Beginning of AC2 Desmond is led to believe that all Abstergo want is the map to the PoE's and they would kill him after they got it. But if you think about it, Subject 16 at Abstergo had been through the memories of Ezio before, so they must have knew about the temples, vault etc. all along but also knew that Desmond was an intregal part in ulitilising whatever they contained (Note: how Minerva addresses Desmond in Ezio's memory, which was likely seen by Subject 16 before that), so in order to ensure his cooperation they drafted in Lucy to earn his trust by freeing him. They didn't know, however, what would occur in the vault at the Colloseum (because it was the present).. this explains how Juno exposed Lucy and ruins their plans. ("fix this" referring to their plan which has been compromised).

GREAZY_FINGAZZ
12-03-2010, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by ROCwd:
In the end of AC1/Beginning of AC2 Desmond is led to believe that all Abstergo want is the map to the PoE's and they would kill him after they got it. But if you think about it, Subject 16 at Abstergo had been through the memories of Ezio before, so they must have knew about the temples, vault etc. all along but also knew that Desmond was an intregal part in ulitilising whatever they contained (Note: how Minerva addresses Desmond in Ezio's memory, which was likely seen by Subject 16 before that), so in order to ensure his cooperation they drafted in Lucy to earn his trust by freeing him. They didn't know, however, what would occur in the vault at the Colloseum (because it was the present).. this explains how Juno exposed Lucy and ruins their plans. ("fix this" referring to their plan which has been compromised).
So much INFORMATION IN MY BRAIN!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

X10J
12-03-2010, 11:00 PM
Then wouldn't Minerva address 16 and not Desmond

We shouldn't assume that 16 saw Ezio's memories, more likely all the time spent in other eras ie Adam/Eve's made him crazy before they got to it.

Krayus Korianis
12-03-2010, 11:39 PM
Really... No one saw that the pool of blood was gone at the end of the credits?

X10J
12-03-2010, 11:59 PM
I did I also noticed the two people standing over their body's aswell.

Some what trivial, but anyone else looking to a new animus. not that there was anything wrong with baby, I just like fresh things.

rainbowsixlv
12-04-2010, 07:00 AM
you people really thing so much of this lucy and the story, ok i know you are a big fans of the game it is really good game i like it two, but it's just a game (and a good one) so well see what happens next when ac3 comes out,and ok here what i think.
I think lucy is a templar or assassin but, i remember in the firs game that the evil doctor forget the name sorry, do you remember when she say "He save my life i own him." something like that and think the doctor told her to save desmond and to use him to find the apple to be a double agent, i also think she kill subject 16 i remember when 16 says "She is not who you think she is." it's complicate game conspiracy, well that's that i think and sorry if my english is bad. really good game

rocketxsurgeon
12-04-2010, 07:08 AM
I don't think Lucy is dead, or will remain dead.
Knowing Desmond, he'd feel terrible for what he's done, and try and put things right, perhaps the shroud is really the answer.

GREAZY_FINGAZZ
12-04-2010, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by rocketxsurgeon:
I don't think Lucy is dead, or will remain dead.
Knowing Desmond, he'd feel terrible for what he's done, and try and put things right, perhaps the shroud is really the answer.
Exactly!

ROCwd
12-04-2010, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by X10J:
Then wouldn't Minerva address 16 and not Desmond

We shouldn't assume that 16 saw Ezio's memories, more likely all the time spent in other eras ie Adam/Eve's made him crazy before they got to it.

No she wouldn't have addressed 16 because Desmond is the one that counts (he is Adam's decendant). This is why Abstergo need Desmond fully cooperate because as I said, he was vital for utilising the apple etc.

We don't assume 16 saw Ezio's memories we know he did. It is made clear in AC2 that Ezio was a common ancestor to both 16 and Desmond. He may well have visited different era's but he has to have visited this one too. (the strange symbols Sean marks with the eye icons, which were put there by 16 in both AC2 and in ACB).

ROCwd
12-04-2010, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by rainbowsixlv:
you people really thing so much of this lucy and the story, ok i know you are a big fans of the game it is really good game i like it two, but it's just a game (and a good one) so well see what happens next when ac3 comes out,and ok here what i think.
I think lucy is a templar or assassin but, i remember in the firs game that the evil doctor forget the name sorry, do you remember when she say "He save my life i own him." something like that and think the doctor told her to save desmond and to use him to find the apple to be a double agent, i also think she kill subject 16 i remember when 16 says "She is not who you think she is." it's complicate game conspiracy, well that's that i think and sorry if my english is bad. really good game

Why does anticipating what will happen in the next game mean that we have lost touch with reality? The writers will be thrilled to see people discussing the next game as it's a compliment to their story and also a possible guide on which to consult when writing the next chapter in AC (perhaps people here will have touched on something that they have overlooked and they can expand on, making for a better game in the future.)

rainbowsixlv
12-04-2010, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by ROCwd:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rainbowsixlv:
you people really thing so much of this lucy and the story, ok i know you are a big fans of the game it is really good game i like it two, but it's just a game (and a good one) so well see what happens next when ac3 comes out,and ok here what i think.
I think lucy is a templar or assassin but, i remember in the firs game that the evil doctor forget the name sorry, do you remember when she say "He save my life i own him." something like that and think the doctor told her to save desmond and to use him to find the apple to be a double agent, i also think she kill subject 16 i remember when 16 says "She is not who you think she is." it's complicate game conspiracy, well that's that i think and sorry if my english is bad. really good game

Why does anticipating what will happen in the next game mean that we have lost touch with reality? The writers will be thrilled to see people discussing the next game as it's a compliment to their story and also a possible guide on which to consult when writing the next chapter in AC (perhaps people here will have touched on something that they have overlooked and they can expand on, making for a better game in the future.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE> and yeah you are right perhapse

Mic_92
12-04-2010, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by Jaiszon:
Lucy was really a Templar double Agent. Right before Desmondio stabs her, Juno says "There is a large dark cross present and it must be removed"

From the dialogue and the red footsteps you see in Monteriggioni with the Eagle vision, there isn't any doubt that she's a Templar.

Seriously, just analyze carefully what happens during that scene.
It says Desmond must find Eve or something but the cross darkens the horizon and they must guide him. Then he moves towards Lucy and stabs her and they say the path is cleared.
It's a no brainer.

Lazaran
12-04-2010, 11:20 AM
Lucy very well might have been a templar, but that doesn't make her evil and deserve to die. I mean, it's pretty obvious that if she was a templar, she was having second thoughts about being one.

I would be really sad if Lucy stays dead and we never find out the truth.

LightRey
12-04-2010, 11:55 AM
I would like to point out that for the theory that Lucy would be a templar, what 16 said isn't a very strong argument. He only says that "she" isn't who Desmond thinks she is, which besides Lucy could also refer to Juno, Minerva or even Rebecca. Not to mention any possible women Desmond's still supposed to meet.

Besides, it could very well refer to either Juno or Minerva. The roman gods aren't exactly known for seeing eye-to-eye.

ROCwd
12-04-2010, 01:32 PM
In my mind there is no question she is a Templar, I've outlined why in previous posts but here is a summary.

In AC1, if you look closely, she has her ring finger right up to the point where she shows that she doesn't. Could it be that the writers hadn't come up with that idea until all the scenes with Lucy prior to that had been already made? Could it be that the people making the scenes just left out that small (but very important) detail? Perhaps, but I think she cut it off to aid in a plan by Abstergo. Why would she do that? You need to look to AC2 to answer that. It is revealed in this game that Ezio is a common ancestor between Desmond and Subject 16. It's also clear that 16 had been through Ezio's memories because he was able to put 'The Truth' into the same region, at the same time (cooincidentally?) and they were only accesible through eagle vision. (a 6th sense only possessed by decendants of Adam/Eve.) What are the chances 16 happened to be visiting another ancestor of the same period who happened to also have eagle vision? Slim to say the least. If it was indeed Ezio that 16 had been following before Desmond, that means Abstergo would have known about the vault and Minerva etc. including how she addressed Desmond in her message. This is where Lucy cutting her finger off comes in. If they knew that Desmond was important when it came to the apple, the temples etc. they would need his full cooperation in order to utilise them. (I know I'm repeating myself from my other posts but hopefully it will make more sense when it's all together in one post.) So how could they get him to cooperate? Lucy of course. If she earned his trust and revealed herself as an Assassin and told Desmond that the work they were going to do was to bring down Abstergo (those who kidnapped him and therefore he resented) they could ensure Desmond's 100% cooperation until they had what they wanted. What 16 says ("she is not who you think she is.") is further evidence, however vague it may be. Another important factor in detirmining wether or not she is a Templar is the ending of ACB because Abstergo didn't know what was going to happen once they entered the vault at the Colloseum, this explains how they're plan backfired and Luno exposed Lucy and ruins their plan by stabbing her, (the two men during the credits, "it's the only way we can fix this.") to be referring to their "broken" plan. Another point I'd like to make as to why I think she's a Templar is the "unmarked van" mentioned in Rebecca's email that was "just the right size for surveilance equipment." and how it miraculously dissappears after Lucy, Sean & Desmond are told about it. It is likely that one of them had it removed. We know it wasn't Desmond, it could be Sean but with all the other evidence, my moneys on Lucy.

I take on board what LightRey says about how 16 could be referring to any woman Desmond will encounter when he says "she's not who you think she is." but it is highly unlikely that he could be reffering to Juno as Desmond was the only one to encounter her. (Note how she only appears to Desmond "you hear that?"- Desmond "hear what?"- Lucy)

I liked Lucy as a character, I would have loved if she was the heroine she seemed to be but thats not how good stories work. I'm certain she was a Templar, she very well may survive because of the shroud in AC3 but as a friend or foe remains to be seen. If she does return, I'm betting she will be seen in an entirely different light.

LightRey
12-04-2010, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by ROCwd:
In my mind there is no question she is a Templar, I've outlined why in previous posts but here is a summary.

In AC1, if you look closely, she has her ring finger right up to the point where she shows that she doesn't. Could it be that the writers hadn't come up with that idea until all the scenes with Lucy prior to that had been already made? Could it be that the people making the scenes just left out that small (but very important) detail? Perhaps, but I think she cut it off to aid in a plan by Abstergo. Why would she do that? You need to look to AC2 to answer that. It is revealed in this game that Ezio is a common ancestor between Desmond and Subject 16. It's also clear that 16 had been through Ezio's memories because he was able to put 'The Truth' into the same region, at the same time (cooincidentally?) and they were only accesible through eagle vision. (a 6th sense only possessed by decendants of Adam/Eve.) What are the chances 16 happened to be visiting another ancestor of the same period who happened to also have eagle vision? Slim to say the least. If it was indeed Ezio that 16 had been following before Desmond, that means Abstergo would have known about the vault and Minerva etc. including how she addressed Desmond in her message. This is where Lucy cutting her finger off comes in. If they knew that Desmond was important when it came to the apple, the temples etc. they would need his full cooperation in order to utilise them. (I know I'm repeating myself from my other posts but hopefully it will make more sense when it's all together in one post.) So how could they get him to cooperate? Lucy of course. If she earned his trust and revealed herself as an Assassin and told Desmond that the work they were going to do was to bring down Abstergo (those who kidnapped him and therefore he resented) they could ensure Desmond's 100% cooperation until they had what they wanted. What 16 says ("she is not who you think she is.") is further evidence, however vague it may be. Another important factor in detirmining wether or not she is a Templar is the ending of ACB because Abstergo didn't know what was going to happen once they entered the vault at the Colloseum, this explains how they're plan backfired and Luno exposed Lucy and ruins their plan by stabbing her, (the two men during the credits, "it's the only way we can fix this.") to be referring to their "broken" plan. Another point I'd like to make as to why I think she's a Templar is the "unmarked van" mentioned in Rebecca's email that was "just the right size for surveilance equipment." and how it miraculously dissappears after Lucy, Sean & Desmond are told about it. It is likely that one of them had it removed. We know it wasn't Desmond, it could be Sean but with all the other evidence, my moneys on Lucy.

I take on board what LightRey says about how 16 could be referring to any woman Desmond will encounter when he says "she's not who you think she is." but it is highly unlikely that he could be reffering to Juno as Desmond was the only one to encounter her. (Note how she only appears to Desmond "you hear that?"- Desmond "hear what?"- Lucy)

I liked Lucy as a character, I would have loved if she was the heroine she seemed to be but thats not how good stories work. I'm certain she was a Templar, she very well may survive because of the shroud in AC3 but as a friend or foe remains to be seen. If she does return, I'm betting she will be seen in an entirely different light.
First of all, Lucy never cut off her finger. She merely made a sign with her hand (by bending her ring finger) to hint to Desmond she was an assassin.
Also, don't forget that 16 could very well have known both Minerva and Juno, since Ezio's seen at least Minerva and very likely Juno and 16's visited Ezio's memories.
There is also no confirmation whatsoever whether eagle vision has anything to do with Adam and Eve, it's pure speculation. In fact, Juno says that Those Who Came Before tried to give it to humans AFTER the world became undone, which would be (way?) after Adam and Eve escaped with their PoE.

oh, and "she" could also refer to Eve.

Krayus Korianis
12-04-2010, 01:43 PM
Lucy never has her ring finger cut off. She bends it to show Desmond she's an Assassin.

ROCwd
12-04-2010, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ROCwd:
In my mind there is no question she is a Templar, I've outlined why in previous posts but here is a summary.

In AC1, if you look closely, she has her ring finger right up to the point where she shows that she doesn't. Could it be that the writers hadn't come up with that idea until all the scenes with Lucy prior to that had been already made? Could it be that the people making the scenes just left out that small (but very important) detail? Perhaps, but I think she cut it off to aid in a plan by Abstergo. Why would she do that? You need to look to AC2 to answer that. It is revealed in this game that Ezio is a common ancestor between Desmond and Subject 16. It's also clear that 16 had been through Ezio's memories because he was able to put 'The Truth' into the same region, at the same time (cooincidentally?) and they were only accesible through eagle vision. (a 6th sense only possessed by decendants of Adam/Eve.) What are the chances 16 happened to be visiting another ancestor of the same period who happened to also have eagle vision? Slim to say the least. If it was indeed Ezio that 16 had been following before Desmond, that means Abstergo would have known about the vault and Minerva etc. including how she addressed Desmond in her message. This is where Lucy cutting her finger off comes in. If they knew that Desmond was important when it came to the apple, the temples etc. they would need his full cooperation in order to utilise them. (I know I'm repeating myself from my other posts but hopefully it will make more sense when it's all together in one post.) So how could they get him to cooperate? Lucy of course. If she earned his trust and revealed herself as an Assassin and told Desmond that the work they were going to do was to bring down Abstergo (those who kidnapped him and therefore he resented) they could ensure Desmond's 100% cooperation until they had what they wanted. What 16 says ("she is not who you think she is.") is further evidence, however vague it may be. Another important factor in detirmining wether or not she is a Templar is the ending of ACB because Abstergo didn't know what was going to happen once they entered the vault at the Colloseum, this explains how they're plan backfired and Luno exposed Lucy and ruins their plan by stabbing her, (the two men during the credits, "it's the only way we can fix this.") to be referring to their "broken" plan. Another point I'd like to make as to why I think she's a Templar is the "unmarked van" mentioned in Rebecca's email that was "just the right size for surveilance equipment." and how it miraculously dissappears after Lucy, Sean & Desmond are told about it. It is likely that one of them had it removed. We know it wasn't Desmond, it could be Sean but with all the other evidence, my moneys on Lucy.

I take on board what LightRey says about how 16 could be referring to any woman Desmond will encounter when he says "she's not who you think she is." but it is highly unlikely that he could be reffering to Juno as Desmond was the only one to encounter her. (Note how she only appears to Desmond "you hear that?"- Desmond "hear what?"- Lucy)

I liked Lucy as a character, I would have loved if she was the heroine she seemed to be but thats not how good stories work. I'm certain she was a Templar, she very well may survive because of the shroud in AC3 but as a friend or foe remains to be seen. If she does return, I'm betting she will be seen in an entirely different light.
First of all, Lucy never cut off her finger. She merely made a sign with her hand (by bending her ring finger) to hint to Desmond she was an assassin.
Also, don't forget that 16 could very well have known both Minerva and Juno, since Ezio's seen at least Minerva and very likely Juno as 16's visited Ezio's memories.
There is also no confirmation whatsoever whether eagle vision has anything to do with Adam and Eve, it's pure speculation. In fact, Juno says that Those Who Came Before tried to give it to humans AFTER the world became undone, which would be (way?) after Adam and Eve escaped with their PoE.

oh, and "she" could also refer to Eve. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay an oversight on my part about cutting off her finger. You're right.

My whole argument was based around the fact that 16 knew about Minerva so I don't know why you're trying to convince me of it. As for Juno, that's possible, but you contradict yourself in your own argument. At one point you say that there was no evidence to suggest that only decendants of Adam and Eve have eagle vidion, which is true, but I made that observation as part of my argument that 16 had been through the memories of Ezio, which you have agreed with when you said 16 could have encountered Juno while following his memories.

LightRey
12-04-2010, 01:56 PM
exactly how does 16 having seen Juno support the theory of eagle vision being handed down to humanity through Adam and Eve?

ROCwd
12-04-2010, 02:03 PM
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, sorry. The only reason I mentioned the the eagle vision stuff was because I was I was trying to prove 16 had been through Ezio's memories. By pointing out that it was only speculation, you are proving nothing only that I'm not quite as sharp as I thought, it doesn't make my theory any less plausable because you agree with the very thing I was trying to prove when I made that observation.

LightRey
12-04-2010, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by ROCwd:
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, sorry. The only reason I mentioned the the eagle vision stuff was because I was I was trying to prove 16 had been through Ezio's memories. By pointing out that it was only speculation, you are proving nothing only that I'm not quite as sharp as I thought, it doesn't make my theory any less plausable because you agree with the very thing I was trying to prove when I made that observation.
ah, ok. Well there's the thing that 16 could've simply gone through Ezio's memories in between sessions (like Desmond could in AC1). This seems quite plausible since he was able to take the time to plant all those glyphs (and apparently himself, or part of him at least).

ROCwd
12-04-2010, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ROCwd:
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, sorry. The only reason I mentioned the the eagle vision stuff was because I was I was trying to prove 16 had been through Ezio's memories. By pointing out that it was only speculation, you are proving nothing only that I'm not quite as sharp as I thought, it doesn't make my theory any less plausable because you agree with the very thing I was trying to prove when I made that observation.
ah, ok. Well there's the thing that 16 could've simply gone through Ezio's memories in between sessions (like Desmond could in AC1). This seems quite plausible since he was able to take the time to plant all those glyphs (and apparently himself, or part of him at least). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, but what would be the point in following Ezio's memories and planting the glyphs unless he knew that Desmond would be coming along at a later date? The only way he could have known this, is if Abstergo put him through Ezio's memories at first and as it became clear to them that they needed someone else, it probably became clear to 16 as well, which is why he planted the glyphs in the first place?

X10J
12-04-2010, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by ROCwd:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by X10J:
Then wouldn't Minerva address 16 and not Desmond

We shouldn't assume that 16 saw Ezio's memories, more likely all the time spent in other eras ie Adam/Eve's made him crazy before they got to it.

No she wouldn't have addressed 16 because Desmond is the one that counts (he is Adam's decendant). This is why Abstergo need Desmond fully cooperate because as I said, he was vital for utilising the apple etc.

We don't assume 16 saw Ezio's memories we know he did. It is made clear in AC2 that Ezio was a common ancestor to both 16 and Desmond. He may well have visited different era's but he has to have visited this one too. (the strange symbols Sean marks with the eye icons, which were put there by 16 in both AC2 and in ACB). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

fine points all around. I wonder how he managed to implant the truth in Ezio's era with abstergo watching.

Also: Lucy seemed suprised. Shouldn't she have known everthing that went down in the vault?

LightRey
12-04-2010, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by ROCwd:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ROCwd:
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, sorry. The only reason I mentioned the the eagle vision stuff was because I was I was trying to prove 16 had been through Ezio's memories. By pointing out that it was only speculation, you are proving nothing only that I'm not quite as sharp as I thought, it doesn't make my theory any less plausable because you agree with the very thing I was trying to prove when I made that observation.
ah, ok. Well there's the thing that 16 could've simply gone through Ezio's memories in between sessions (like Desmond could in AC1). This seems quite plausible since he was able to take the time to plant all those glyphs (and apparently himself, or part of him at least). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, but what would be the point in following Ezio's memories and planting the glyphs unless he knew that Desmond would be coming along at a later date? The only way he could have known this, is if Abstergo put him through Ezio's memories at first and as it became clear to them that they needed someone else, it probably became clear to 16 as well, which is why he planted the glyphs in the first place? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The bleeding effect could've caused him to enter the memories of even more ancestors or he saw something in some of the sessions he went through that made him want to visit Ezio's memories himself.
Also, at the end of AC1 the templars seemed to think Desmond was of no further use to them, since they wanted him dead.
Lastly I would like to point out that when you start the puzzle of the last glyph in ACII, 16 seems to show compassion towards Lucy, apologizing that he can't go on anymore.

ROCwd
12-04-2010, 02:31 PM
When you say the bleeding effect you mean the fact that he stayed in the animus and "no longer needed it to visit his ancestors, which wouldn't be a bad thing if you could control it"? If that's the case then the glyphs couldn't possibly have been planted that way as they were coordinates saved in the "memory core" Lucy took from the animus at Abstergo.

As for Abstergo appearing to have no further use for him, as I said in my original post, they wanted to get his cooperation and they only way they could do this was by Lucy earning his trust. Which was was done by Lucy "saving" him from what he thought Abstergo had in store for him and letting him believe that he was uniting with her to take them down.

In relation to that puzzle, he shows compassion, but "can't go on like this" could indicate that he had compassion for her but couldn't go on knowing that she was a loyal Templar.

EDIT: Forgot to quote your previous post, but it is in response to you LightRey

ROCwd
12-04-2010, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by X10J:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ROCwd:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by X10J:
Then wouldn't Minerva address 16 and not Desmond

We shouldn't assume that 16 saw Ezio's memories, more likely all the time spent in other eras ie Adam/Eve's made him crazy before they got to it.

No she wouldn't have addressed 16 because Desmond is the one that counts (he is Adam's decendant). This is why Abstergo need Desmond fully cooperate because as I said, he was vital for utilising the apple etc.

We don't assume 16 saw Ezio's memories we know he did. It is made clear in AC2 that Ezio was a common ancestor to both 16 and Desmond. He may well have visited different era's but he has to have visited this one too. (the strange symbols Sean marks with the eye icons, which were put there by 16 in both AC2 and in ACB). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

fine points all around. I wonder how he managed to implant the truth in Ezio's era with abstergo watching.

Also: Lucy seemed suprised. Shouldn't she have known everthing that went down in the vault? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lucy says that he "must have hacked the machine between sessions." if thats the case and Lucy is a Templar then "must have" indicates that he somehow done so without Abstergo finding out.

"Lucy seemed suprised." if she is a Templar then that's her job.

LightRey
12-04-2010, 02:43 PM
I'm not saying he experienced everything through the bleeding effect, simply that he felt something was important about Ezio through it.
But I personally find it more likely that he got some hint from one of his animus sessions or maybe from one of the subjects before him that there was something important about Ezio and he set out to find out what it was.

To be honest, your theory's sounding a little too far fetched to me at this point. So far you've only critisized the arguments that directly critisized your arguments, completely ignoring my other arguments.
And even then the only real evidence left that supports your theory are the red footprints near the villa. However, at the end of ACB it's uncovered that there's probably a lot more to Eagle Vision than we now realize, which could mean that the footprints mean something completely different than that they're from an enemy, so even that bit of evidence isn't very strong.

X10J
12-04-2010, 02:45 PM
Wasn't Lucy an assassin before she worked at abtsergo? Do you think she converted to Templar, or was she a triple agent from the start?

Also: Do you think that the rest of the gang are templars? That would make more sense than just Lucy.

ROCwd
12-04-2010, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
I'm not saying he experienced everything through the bleeding effect, simply that he felt something was important about Ezio through it.
But I personally find it more likely that he got some hint from one of his animus sessions or maybe from one of the subjects before him that there was something important about Ezio and he set out to find out what it was.

To be honest, your theory's sounding a little too far fetched to me at this point. So far you've only critisized the arguments that directly critisized your arguments, completely ignoring my other arguments.
And even then the only real evidence left that supports your theory are the red footprints near the villa. However, at the end of ACB it's uncovered that there's probably a lot more to Eagle Vision than we now realize, which could mean that the footprints mean something completely different than that they're from an enemy, so even that bit of evidence isn't very strong.

Perhaps you're right about 16 noticing something about Ezio, what I said still could have happened, thats just an alternative theory. No arguments you've made have discredited my theory in the slightest, the only reason I didn't acknowledge the ones that didn't criticize my own is because they're not relevant to the topic I'm debating which is my theory. I never mentioned the red footprints at the villa, I mentioned the shroud which has been linked to the red footprints at the villa but again, I didn't mention that as part of my theory, I was simply commenting on that as a different issue.

LightRey
12-04-2010, 03:02 PM
Look, I'm not saying it's not possible that Lucy's a templar. however, you keep explaining that through every one of the AC games she's behaved in the same manner an undercover templar would've. Problem is, an undercover templar would try to behave like an assassin would.
The same kind of thing goes for the remainder of your arguments. Every one of them supports your theory, but also the exact opposite. Making them kind of pointless.

What I'm saying with this is that from a scientific perspective your theory is not much more than speculation.

ROCwd
12-04-2010, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by X10J:
Wasn't Lucy an assassin before she worked at abtsergo? Do you think she converted to Templar, or was she a triple agent from the start?

Also: Do you think that the rest of the gang are templars? That would make more sense than just Lucy.

I haven't heard anything to that effect but maybe she was.

I don't think that the rest of them were Templars. If they were then Luno would have mentioned all 3 in the vault and the point about the unmarked van wouldn't stand. I think Lucy was approached by the Assassin's to become a sort of "mole" for them inside Abstergo but in accepting she became a mole for the Templars instead.. if you follow?

X10J
12-04-2010, 03:05 PM
From a scientific point of view all of our theoties are speculation. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LightRey
12-04-2010, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by X10J:
From a scientific point of view all of our theoties are speculation. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
What I meant by that was that if one would use scientific method none of those arguments would work.

To give an example:
it's like using the fact that objects fall to the ground as an argument to support the theory of gravity as opposed to the general theory of relativity. the problem is that both theory's support this event, making the argument pointless.

ROCwd
12-04-2010, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
Look, I'm not saying it's not possible that Lucy's a templar. however, you keep explaining that through every one of the AC games she's behaved in the same manner an undercover templar would've. Problem is, an undercover templar would try to behave like an assassin would.
The same kind of thing goes for the remainder of your arguments. Every one of them supports your theory, but also the exact opposite. Making them kind of pointless.

What I'm saying with this is that from a scientific perspective your theory is not much more than speculation.

I think the writers of the game needed to lay a foundation for exposing Lucy as a Templar. They couldn't have just came out of the blue and said she was a Templar, they needed to back it up with the occasional hint here and there that could be hilighted when she finally is revealed. In pushing forward my theory I'm asking people to point out pros/cons in the theory itself not the way I articulated it, but out of curiosity, how have I supported my theory and then the exact opposite?

LightRey
12-04-2010, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by ROCwd:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
Look, I'm not saying it's not possible that Lucy's a templar. however, you keep explaining that through every one of the AC games she's behaved in the same manner an undercover templar would've. Problem is, an undercover templar would try to behave like an assassin would.
The same kind of thing goes for the remainder of your arguments. Every one of them supports your theory, but also the exact opposite. Making them kind of pointless.

What I'm saying with this is that from a scientific perspective your theory is not much more than speculation.

I think the writers of the game needed to lay a foundation for exposing Lucy as a Templar. They couldn't have just came out of the blue and said she was a Templar, they needed to back it up with the occasional hint here and there that could be hilighted when she finally is revealed. In pushing forward my theory I'm asking people to point out pros/cons in the theory itself not the way I articulated it, but out of curiosity, how have I supported my theory and then the exact opposite? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
nearly all of the arguments you have used to support your theory also support the opposite, making them pointless arguments (see the example in my previous post).

I also think that Lucy being a templar seems a little to... how do I put it... lame of a twist. not to mention that if they would want to make it a twist, they should've made it WAY more clear that she was a templar at the end of ACB.

ROCwd
12-04-2010, 03:37 PM
I've looked at your example and it makes no sense whatsoever. However, I find it rather amusing that you are trying to highlight the fact that there are scientific issues with my argument and yet you refer to a THEORY in order to back up your point.

I'll gladly accept an argument if it disproves anything about my theory, as I'm sure Einstein would have in relation to his THEORY of relativity but you offered no such thing. You've been arguing about the quality of my arguments and wether they are scientific or not, which doesn't prove anything and ironically is, to quote yourself "kind of pointless".

In relation to it being "lame of a twist." and that "they should have made it WAY more clear.", "lame" isn't a very scientific way of putting it for someone so interested in the scientific aspect and the reason they wouldn't make it clear now if she is or not is because they want to sell more games. If they ended every game by telling you what was going to be revealed in the next game they wouldn't be very good business people.

X10J
12-04-2010, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by X10J:
From a scientific point of view all of our theoties are speculation. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
What I meant by that was that if one would use scientific method none of those arguments would work.

To give an example:
it's like using the fact that objects fall to the ground as an argument to support the theory of gravity as opposed to the general theory of relativity. the problem is that both theory's support this event, making the argument pointless. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not if both sides are open minded, then we might get the teory of relative gravity. Bad example, I know, but you get the idea.

OGCFB
12-04-2010, 03:45 PM
"So Desmond what are you going to do next?"
"Kill Lucy for being a traitor but not until I find out she is in the next game because I don't know that she is yet.."

LightRey
12-04-2010, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by ROCwd:
I've looked at your example and it makes no sense whatsoever. However, I find it rather amusing that you are trying to highlight the fact that there are scientific issues with my argument and yet you refer to a THEORY in order to back up your point.

I'll gladly accept an argument if it disproves anything about my theory, as I'm sure Einstein would have in relation to his THEORY of relativity but you offered no such thing. You've been arguing about the quality of my arguments and wether they are scientific or not, which doesn't prove anything and ironically is, to quote yourself "kind of pointless".

In relation to it being "lame of a twist." and that "they should have made it WAY more clear.", "lame" isn't a very scientific way of putting it for someone so interested in the scientific aspect and the reason they wouldn't make it clear now if she is or not is because they want to sell more games. If they ended every game by telling you what was going to be revealed in the next game they wouldn't be very good business people.
whoa, you don't have to be so angry y'know.
I believe you misinterpreted what I mean by scientific. I wasn't referring to your arguments not being backed up by science or anything. I was simply saying that would one take all we have seen in AC and analyzed it scientifically, most of the arguments you came up with would not come up, simply because they don't support your theory any more than the opposite.

I will give another (more simple) example of this:
suppose I allegedly gave the finger to an officer and I went on trial. If I were to use a photograph of my foot, taken at the time I allegedly gave him the finger, and it doesn't show anything about where I was at the time or anything like that, the photograph would be a pointless argument from my side since me having a foot is something that is true in both the situation in which I did flip the officer off as well as the one in which I didn't.

ROCwd
12-04-2010, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by OACFB:
"So Desmond what are you going to do next?"
"Kill Lucy for being a traitor but not until I find out she is in the next game because I don't know that she is yet.."

Desmond didn't kill her for being a traitor, he was being controlled by Luno, who obviously knew something about Lucy if she had reason to stab her. What exactly she knew is what is to be revealed in the next game and is what we are debating right now. Pay attention.

LightRey
12-04-2010, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by ROCwd:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OACFB:
"So Desmond what are you going to do next?"
"Kill Lucy for being a traitor but not until I find out she is in the next game because I don't know that she is yet.."

Desmond didn't kill her for being a traitor, he was being controlled by Luno, who obviously knew something about Lucy if she had reason to stab her. What exactly she knew is what is to be revealed in the next game and is what we are debating right now. Pay attention. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dude, he was making a joke. Calm down.

ROCwd
12-04-2010, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ROCwd:
I've looked at your example and it makes no sense whatsoever. However, I find it rather amusing that you are trying to highlight the fact that there are scientific issues with my argument and yet you refer to a THEORY in order to back up your point.

I'll gladly accept an argument if it disproves anything about my theory, as I'm sure Einstein would have in relation to his THEORY of relativity but you offered no such thing. You've been arguing about the quality of my arguments and wether they are scientific or not, which doesn't prove anything and ironically is, to quote yourself "kind of pointless".

In relation to it being "lame of a twist." and that "they should have made it WAY more clear.", "lame" isn't a very scientific way of putting it for someone so interested in the scientific aspect and the reason they wouldn't make it clear now if she is or not is because they want to sell more games. If they ended every game by telling you what was going to be revealed in the next game they wouldn't be very good business people.
whoa, you don't have to be so angry y'know.
I believe you misinterpreted what I mean by scientific. I wasn't referring to your arguments not being backed up by science or anything. I was simply saying that would one take all we have seen in AC and analyzed it scientifically, most of the arguments you came up with would not come up, simply because they don't support your theory any more than the opposite.

I will give another (more simple) example of this:
suppose I allegedly gave the finger to an officer and I went on trial. If I were to use a photograph of my foot, taken at the time I allegedly gave him the finger, and it doesn't show anything about where I was at the time or anything like that, the photograph would be a pointless argument from my side since me having a foot is something that is true in both the situation in which I did flip the officer off as well as the one in which I didn't. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not angry at all, if anything I'm glad we are having this argument as I'd like to think we are both learning from it. Maybe I just don't have the mental capacity but you're not making any sense at all. Can you give me an example that is relevant to one of my arguments.

e.g. I said "[insert argument here].." but..... [insert reason why it's pointless here and how that affects my theories plausability here]

OGCFB
12-04-2010, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by ROCwd:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ROCwd:
I've looked at your example and it makes no sense whatsoever. However, I find it rather amusing that you are trying to highlight the fact that there are scientific issues with my argument and yet you refer to a THEORY in order to back up your point.

I'll gladly accept an argument if it disproves anything about my theory, as I'm sure Einstein would have in relation to his THEORY of relativity but you offered no such thing. You've been arguing about the quality of my arguments and wether they are scientific or not, which doesn't prove anything and ironically is, to quote yourself "kind of pointless".

In relation to it being "lame of a twist." and that "they should have made it WAY more clear.", "lame" isn't a very scientific way of putting it for someone so interested in the scientific aspect and the reason they wouldn't make it clear now if she is or not is because they want to sell more games. If they ended every game by telling you what was going to be revealed in the next game they wouldn't be very good business people.
whoa, you don't have to be so angry y'know.
I believe you misinterpreted what I mean by scientific. I wasn't referring to your arguments not being backed up by science or anything. I was simply saying that would one take all we have seen in AC and analyzed it scientifically, most of the arguments you came up with would not come up, simply because they don't support your theory any more than the opposite.

I will give another (more simple) example of this:
suppose I allegedly gave the finger to an officer and I went on trial. If I were to use a photograph of my foot, taken at the time I allegedly gave him the finger, and it doesn't show anything about where I was at the time or anything like that, the photograph would be a pointless argument from my side since me having a foot is something that is true in both the situation in which I did flip the officer off as well as the one in which I didn't. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not angry at all, if anything I'm glad we are having this argument as I'd like to think we are both learning from it. Maybe I just don't have the mental capacity but you're not making any sense at all. Can you give me an example that is relevant to one of my arguments.

e.g. I said "[insert argument here].." but..... [insert reason why it's pointless here and how that affects my theories plausability here] </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK My arguement I like cake but not pink T-shirts reason why it's pointless here is it has no relation to this thread how it effects your theories plausability... It doesn't

LightRey
12-04-2010, 04:09 PM
well, you said that the templars wanting Desmond dead could've been an act to make Desmond trust Lucy. This could indeed be true, but it could just as well just be what it looks like, the templars wanting him dead and Lucy, being an assassin, not wanting that.
Your theory's riddled with arguments just like that.

ROCwd
12-04-2010, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by OACFB:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ROCwd:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ROCwd:
I've looked at your example and it makes no sense whatsoever. However, I find it rather amusing that you are trying to highlight the fact that there are scientific issues with my argument and yet you refer to a THEORY in order to back up your point.

I'll gladly accept an argument if it disproves anything about my theory, as I'm sure Einstein would have in relation to his THEORY of relativity but you offered no such thing. You've been arguing about the quality of my arguments and wether they are scientific or not, which doesn't prove anything and ironically is, to quote yourself "kind of pointless".

In relation to it being "lame of a twist." and that "they should have made it WAY more clear.", "lame" isn't a very scientific way of putting it for someone so interested in the scientific aspect and the reason they wouldn't make it clear now if she is or not is because they want to sell more games. If they ended every game by telling you what was going to be revealed in the next game they wouldn't be very good business people.
whoa, you don't have to be so angry y'know.
I believe you misinterpreted what I mean by scientific. I wasn't referring to your arguments not being backed up by science or anything. I was simply saying that would one take all we have seen in AC and analyzed it scientifically, most of the arguments you came up with would not come up, simply because they don't support your theory any more than the opposite.

I will give another (more simple) example of this:
suppose I allegedly gave the finger to an officer and I went on trial. If I were to use a photograph of my foot, taken at the time I allegedly gave him the finger, and it doesn't show anything about where I was at the time or anything like that, the photograph would be a pointless argument from my side since me having a foot is something that is true in both the situation in which I did flip the officer off as well as the one in which I didn't. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not angry at all, if anything I'm glad we are having this argument as I'd like to think we are both learning from it. Maybe I just don't have the mental capacity but you're not making any sense at all. Can you give me an example that is relevant to one of my arguments.

e.g. I said "[insert argument here].." but..... [insert reason why it's pointless here and how that affects my theories plausability here] </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK My arguement I like cake but not pink T-shirts reason why it's pointless here is it has no relation to this thread how it effects your theories plausability... It doesn't </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Touchť

LightRey
12-04-2010, 04:26 PM
lol.
Anyways, I would like to take this time to bring up 2 more theories:
The first is one that has already come up if I'm not mistaken, but I want to show my support for this one. It's the theory that TWCB want Lucy dead, because Desmond has to fully activate eagle vision (as Juno put it: "Awaken the Sixth"). This makes sense since Juno refers to a woman Desmond's supposed to meet apparantly a descendant from Eve. He doesn't get any more details and that is explained by Juno saying that "The Cross darkens the horizon". This, assuming this theory is at least partially correct, could mean that the woman that Desmond needs to find is (a descendant of) a templar, which would make sense since the first templar was most likely Cain, one of the sons of Adam and Eve (he could very well be that "Father of Understanding" they keep mentioning).

Now for my other theory I don't need to say that much, it's pretty much the same as ROCwd's, but instead of Lucy being a traitor, she's brainwashed by Abstergo and has become some sort of sleeper agent for them. This would explain her not showing up red and still leaving red footprints in Eagle Vision.

ROCwd
12-04-2010, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
well, you said that the templars wanting Desmond dead could've been an act to make Desmond trust Lucy. This could indeed be true, but it could just as well just be what it looks like, the templars wanting him dead and Lucy, being an assassin, not wanting that.
You're theory's riddled with arguments just like that.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of the word 'argument'. When I said the Templars could have been claiming to want Desmond dead as part of a plan to make him trust Lucy I wasn't trying to prove anything, I was simply offering one possible scenario. Of course there are aspects of that, that could apply to multiple scenarios, that goes without saying... so you've kinda put so mush effort into a point that isn't relevant at all.. I would put up about a million of thos FAIL pictures right now but I'd like to think I'm above that.

LightRey
12-04-2010, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by ROCwd:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
well, you said that the templars wanting Desmond dead could've been an act to make Desmond trust Lucy. This could indeed be true, but it could just as well just be what it looks like, the templars wanting him dead and Lucy, being an assassin, not wanting that.
You're theory's riddled with arguments just like that.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of the word 'argument'. When I said the Templars could have been claiming to want Desmond dead as part of a plan to make him trust Lucy I wasn't trying to prove anything, I was simply offering one possible scenario. Of course there are aspects of that, that could apply to multiple scenarios, that goes without saying... so you've kinda put so mush effort into a point that isn't relevant at all.. I would put up about a million of thos FAIL pictures right now but I'd like to think I'm above that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was an example, which is usually an indication that there is more. My argument wasn't about that one specifically, it just suited my needs to explain my point.

ROCwd
12-04-2010, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ROCwd:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
well, you said that the templars wanting Desmond dead could've been an act to make Desmond trust Lucy. This could indeed be true, but it could just as well just be what it looks like, the templars wanting him dead and Lucy, being an assassin, not wanting that.
You're theory's riddled with arguments just like that.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of the word 'argument'. When I said the Templars could have been claiming to want Desmond dead as part of a plan to make him trust Lucy I wasn't trying to prove anything, I was simply offering one possible scenario. Of course there are aspects of that, that could apply to multiple scenarios, that goes without saying... so you've kinda put so mush effort into a point that isn't relevant at all.. I would put up about a million of thos FAIL pictures right now but I'd like to think I'm above that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was an example, which is usually an indication that there is more. My argument wasn't about that one specifically, it just suited my needs to explain my point. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look, I think we're arguing for the sake of arguing now, not because we have reason to. I offered "possible scenarios" and you mistook them for "arguments" and then said they don't function as arguments because they can apply to anything and aren't relevant to one point in particular. I agree but they were never intended as "arguments" so wether they function as one or not is irrelevant. Lets leave it there?

LightRey
12-04-2010, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by ROCwd:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ROCwd:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
well, you said that the templars wanting Desmond dead could've been an act to make Desmond trust Lucy. This could indeed be true, but it could just as well just be what it looks like, the templars wanting him dead and Lucy, being an assassin, not wanting that.
You're theory's riddled with arguments just like that.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of the word 'argument'. When I said the Templars could have been claiming to want Desmond dead as part of a plan to make him trust Lucy I wasn't trying to prove anything, I was simply offering one possible scenario. Of course there are aspects of that, that could apply to multiple scenarios, that goes without saying... so you've kinda put so mush effort into a point that isn't relevant at all.. I would put up about a million of thos FAIL pictures right now but I'd like to think I'm above that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was an example, which is usually an indication that there is more. My argument wasn't about that one specifically, it just suited my needs to explain my point. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look, I think we're arguing for the sake of arguing now, not because we have reason to. I offered "possible scenarios" and you mistook them for "arguments" and then said they don't function as arguments because they can apply to anything and aren't relevant to one point in particular. I agree but they were never intended as "arguments" so wether they function as one or not is irrelevant. Lets leave it there? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Fine by me.
There still is something bugging me though. It has something to do with something I said before about the Roman gods not being known for seeing eye-to-eye. In the story of the Trojan war a golden apple (most likely a PoE, supported by both Al Mualim and 16) was supposed to be given to either Minerva, Juno or Venus. The Trojan prince Paris was given the task to choose between them and as most of us know he chose Venus (which means NOT Juno and NOT Minerva) this eventually sparked the Trojan war and throughout Roman mythology especially Juno seems to have been very ****ed at the Trojans because of this.

abubakar786
12-04-2010, 04:55 PM
the templars, this is why minerva want's to prevent this from happening and iirc she wants desmond to continue his journey so that: warning spoiler alert from BROTHERHOOD.

SPOILER ALERT, SPOILER ALERT, SPOILER ALERT

Lucy who was betraying him, you'll see if you are playing through brotherhood, check emails often, could just pretend like being his chick or whatsoever and steal all the pieces and help the templars, and now you think how could minerva possibly know, that is becauseDesmond is being played by another person, and Desmond isn't really the one playing others, but the one being played by others, in the future were Templars have power again.

well the more I typed the less logical it looked, but anyways if you read all post, think about, although the mind **** part almost surely isn't true, I would laugh if Ubisoft did that, I mean no one would expect it, right?

X10J
12-04-2010, 05:07 PM
What?

EscoBlades
12-04-2010, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by abubakar786:
the templars, this is why minerva want's to prevent this from happening and iirc she wants desmond to continue his journey so that: warning spoiler alert from BROTHERHOOD.

SPOILER ALERT, SPOILER ALERT, SPOILER ALERT

Lucy who was betraying him, you'll see if you are playing through brotherhood, check emails often, could just pretend like being his chick or whatsoever and steal all the pieces and help the templars, and now you think how could minerva possibly know, that is becauseDesmond is being played by another person, and Desmond isn't really the one playing others, but the one being played by others, in the future were Templars have power again.

well the more I typed the less logical it looked, but anyways if you read all post, think about, although the mind **** part almost surely isn't true, I would laugh if Ubisoft did that, I mean no one would expect it, right?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

LordAcoustico
12-04-2010, 05:48 PM
Guys sorry for going back to the Shroud theory, but remember that when Desmond first enters the Sanctuary in ACB he sees Ezio being much older?
Why would he be in the villa after so many years...
Probably not because of the shroud... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Unless there is another theory for why Ezio would come back to the villa when he is older?

ROCwd
12-04-2010, 06:13 PM
Okay sorry for the delay, I had to go do something.

First of all, LightRey, thank you thats very big of you. And your point about the Roman gods is interesting and I'll certainly give it some thought and get back to you.

abubakar786 I'd like to reiterate what X10J said and add: the ****?

LordAcoustico, the only reason I can see as to why Ezio came back to the villa when he was older is that he was leaving the clue to the password for the vault. How he got to the vault and how he knew to leave the password in the sanctuary remains to be seen but that's the only reason I can think of, unless it has something to do with the shroud and footprints etc.

LordAcoustico
12-04-2010, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by ROCwd:
Okay sorry for the delay, I had to go do something.

First of all, LightRey, thank you thats very big of you. And your point about the Roman gods is interesting and I'll certainly give it some thought and get back to you.

abubakar786 I'd like to reiterate what X10J said and add: the ****?

LordAcoustico, the only reason I can see as to why Ezio came back to the villa when he was older is that he was leaving the clue to the password for the vault. How he got to the vault and how he knew to leave the password in the sanctuary remains to be seen but that's the only reason I can think of, unless it has something to do with the shroud and footprints etc.

Maybe these are not Lucy's (or anyone from the team) footprints since you'll see other footprints glowing white or blue (Whatever colour is associated with good guys, forgot what it was :S)
You'd also see it in the sanctuary (aumm not sure if you can or not, just from memory at least I think I remember not seeing any red on the floor :/).
So maybe it's someone else's foot prints, might be a clue or something for the direction of the.. Wait a moment.
Subject 16 is alive right? Why talk about Lucy being a Templar of Subject 16 might be one?
What if he (or maybe someone else I don't know) was there some time before they arrived (or lots of time), sent to find the vault with the shroud , instead was being stuck inside the vault or somewhere near it?
or maybe Juno (probably that's where it would become nonesense, but it's worth the try) or another God which might be the "guardian" of that vault who is also evil chose to spare 16's life only if he'll bring him Desmond?
I don't know, I have this feeling that if there is a vault down there, and if it has a shroud, it would have Pluto (or Hades, same thing) in it as well.

Just wondering really, I just can't believe Lucy is a traitor, she would receive strange emails no? :S
Then again she does play Project Legacy which might hint towards which side she is on really :P (Templars).

It's both frustrating and awesome how Ubisoft just leaves you there with so many questions that must be answered :/

And what abubakar786 is trying to say (after 5 minutes of reading again and again :P):
Desmond is the ancestor of someone else who is in the animus.
So it's basically a animus inside an animus or something like that if it makes any sense :S
So he said the Minerva could warn Desmond about the danger to come, and why this satellite is so important is because maybe that future descendant of Desmond would go in the Animus to maybe fix it? or...
Juno makes Desmond kill his 'Son' (if Lucy is pregnant) so if the Templars would be destroyed, or really REALLY weakened, they won't be able to find someone else to go in the animus to find Ezio's / Al Tair's secrets http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif or a descendant of Adam, so Juno wants Desmond to find Eve so either TOWCB would kill them both, or to save the world.

Makes sense now?

ROCwd
12-04-2010, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by LordAcoustico:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ROCwd:
Okay sorry for the delay, I had to go do something.

First of all, LightRey, thank you thats very big of you. And your point about the Roman gods is interesting and I'll certainly give it some thought and get back to you.

abubakar786 I'd like to reiterate what X10J said and add: the ****?

LordAcoustico, the only reason I can see as to why Ezio came back to the villa when he was older is that he was leaving the clue to the password for the vault. How he got to the vault and how he knew to leave the password in the sanctuary remains to be seen but that's the only reason I can think of, unless it has something to do with the shroud and footprints etc.

Maybe these are not Lucy's (or anyone from the team) footprints since you'll see other footprints glowing white or blue (Whatever colour is associated with good guys, forgot what it was :S)
You'd also see it in the sanctuary (aumm not sure if you can or not, just from memory at least I think I remember not seeing any red on the floor :/).
So maybe it's someone else's foot prints, might be a clue or something for the direction of the.. Wait a moment.
Subject 16 is alive right? Why talk about Lucy being a Templar of Subject 16 might be one?
What if he (or maybe someone else I don't know) was there some time before they arrived (or lots of time), sent to find the vault with the shroud , instead was being stuck inside the vault or somewhere near it?
or maybe Juno (probably that's where it would become nonesense, but it's worth the try) or another God which might be the "guardian" of that vault who is also evil chose to spare 16's life only if he'll bring him Desmond?
I don't know, I have this feeling that if there is a vault down there, and if it has a shroud, it would have Pluto (or Hades, same thing) in it as well.

Just wondering really, I just can't believe Lucy is a traitor, she would receive strange emails no? :S
Then again she does play Project Legacy which might hint towards which side she is on really :P (Templars).

It's both frustrating and awesome how Ubisoft just leaves you there with so many questions that must be answered :/

And what abubakar786 is trying to say (after 5 minutes of reading again and again :P):
Desmond is the ancestor of someone else who is in the animus.
So it's basically a animus inside an animus or something like that if it makes any sense :S
So he said the Minerva could warn Desmond about the danger to come, and why this satellite is so important is because maybe that future descendant of Desmond would go in the Animus to maybe fix it? or...
Juno makes Desmond kill his 'Son' (if Lucy is pregnant) so if the Templars would be destroyed, or really REALLY weakened, they won't be able to find someone else to go in the animus to find Ezio's / Al Tair's secrets http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Makes sense now? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We are led to believe at the end of AC2 and the beginning of ACB (allbeit by Lucy) that "16 is dead". It's certainly a theory that infact he may be alive but if he is he's less likely to be a Templar than Lucy, purely because if he is then Lucy is proven to have lied to Desmond about him and indeed the other evidence I outlined in my theory.

When you talk about the footprints, I've just thought of another possible scenario. If Lucy is a Templar, which I still believe, then perhaps she entered the well and obtained the shroud (note how the footprints come from inside the villa), while the search for the apple was taking place, un-known to the rest of the gang (during one of her trips for food mentioned in the emails). This would perfectly explain how the pool of blood was gone at the end of the credits as Lucy may have had the shroud with her. And in reference to your point about how there are no footprints of Lucy's in the sanctuary, perhaps there didn't need to be as she wasn't doing anything sinister there..

No Lucy wouldn't recieve strange emails as Abstergo are playing it safe by limiting contact with her (especially via email as it's vulnerable given that Rebecca and Shaun both seem to know how to hack etc.)

As for abubakar's point, people viewing their ancestors can't change what happened or they will become desynchronised. So anyone viewing Desmond cannot be controlling him, just observing. If that's what you meant, I'm still a bit confused by it.

LordAcoustico
12-04-2010, 07:19 PM
The Lucy + Well theory is very smart O=
I haven't thought about it but it makes sense!
Maybe that's why Juno wanted Desmond to stab Lucy! So they will find out that she is a Templar and that's why the two guys (if they are Abstergo as well) said they should fix it, because they didn't think Lucy would be compromised!

ROCwd
12-04-2010, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by LordAcoustico:
The Lucy + Well theory is very smart O=
I haven't thought about it but it makes sense!
Maybe that's why Juno wanted Desmond to stab Lucy! So they will find out that she is a Templar and that's why the two guys (if they are Abstergo as well) said they should fix it, because they didn't think Lucy would be compromised!

Exactly, if you read my earlier posts and ignore the details that I stupidly got wrong such as Lucy having cut off her ring finger, I think you'll find that's pretty much my theory too, except I disagree about them caring that "Lucy" had been comprised, more like their overall plan, which Lucy was a part of.

EXINFiNiTiX
12-04-2010, 08:22 PM
If anyone is still talking about Lucy most likely being a double agent, and to those that do not believe she is a Templar consider this this,

After completing the virtual maze,

Desmond: Subject 16?
Subject 16: Yes, yes, Subject 17.
Desmond: Youíre dead. I saw your blood.
Subject 16: No time. It is far later than you know. Too late to save them.
Desmond: Who?
Subject 16: She is not who you think she is. Everything you hope to become, everything you hold dear, itís already gone.
Desmond: Explain. Please.
Subject 16: Eden. She... in Eden. Find Eve. The Key. Her DNA.
Desmond: Tell me!
Subject 16: I cannot... The sun... Your son... Too weak... Must replenish energy...
Desmond: Donít go.
Subject 16: I am with you 'til the end. Find me in the darkness.

This is SOLID proof Lucy is a traitor.

Theassassin4756
12-04-2010, 08:32 PM
what color was the Assassins' symbol at the end of the game? red u say? seems strange if there are red footprints and red symbols and red markings on walls.... they all must be evil right?
also people have seemed to have forgotten this but opening of AC2... fingerprints on the keypad.... and also the red footprint trail ends strangely at the base of the fountain and the entrance to the sanctuary.

Theassassin4756
12-04-2010, 08:33 PM
@ EXINFiNiTiX
how is that SOLID proof? She could mean Lucy, Rebecca, Minerva, Juno or some other female that has yet to be introduced.

Theassassin4756
12-04-2010, 08:41 PM
OH ****!!!!!!!!!!
Guys wait a minute... So the Trophy for completing 16's puzzels is morse code that translates to IAMALIVE... Is it remotly possiple that he is in the White Van that rebeeca finds?
Because after that the Mysterious red trail shows up... So could 16 also be that Edurtio guy in Project Legacy and also the one who gives you the others email?
Could 16 be living off the Shroud?

Razrback16
12-04-2010, 08:44 PM
It's too bad any attempt at reasoning this out is thrown out the window by how f*cked up the story twists continue to be in this game. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Theassassin4756
12-04-2010, 08:45 PM
True but its fun to try and guess right?

Razrback16
12-04-2010, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by Theassassin4756:
True but its fun to try and guess right?

Oh I know. I do just wish Ubisoft could answer a couple of questions --

Is Lucy dead? (yes or no would suffice)
Are we really Desmond or someone else? (ie. his son looking back through the Animus, etc.)

n64vt1
12-04-2010, 10:21 PM
I been reading your guys little debate here and how funny it's is to read here my little humor in the debate i'm still at head to head with if lucy is a templar or not but you know what they say that the first answer is not always the right one, maybe ubisoft want's you to think that so they can do a 180 on us idk but i'm lean towards that she is cause one thing keep popin in my head at one point in the game she said that she still has access to Abstergo computers if there as powerful as they say how dose she still have access even if it limted just my thoughts, also thinking he never left Abstergo cause they still need him the use the P.O.E maybe they use the Animus to make a fulse realty and that part was to much for him to take and put desmond into shock so they have to change it or lose him or it just about subject 16 thought that too but all we can do is just guess and wait and see it in the next one i know i can't wait.

X10J
12-04-2010, 10:51 PM
Alot of people think that the foot prints were just a guide to show you where to go in case your confused about how to get back to the sanctuary.

On the other hand: Lucy Does go AWOL for a while.

Here's a thought: people think that the footprints were left by a hostile because they are red. But that means that 16 is hostile because his messages were red.

While I'm on the subject. Maybe Lucy was actualy Mother Thereasa, and we're just butchering her reputation. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

IamF3Ar
12-05-2010, 12:53 AM
I've spent some time reading these posts, and while I can agree with some, I can't believe others (due to a personal opinion, not because they are false or don't have supporting proof).

Many of you mention the footsteps and relate it to Lucy being a Templar (yeah, I know I'm going back to this, but oh well), but aren't they just the footsteps that were there at the start of the game, even before the sequences that Lucy went missing? I just associated them with the steps Ezio took while injured, leading up to the Villa and inside the current hideout, where he escaped through the back.

EXINFiNiTiX also posted the script for the truth from ACB (thanks by the way), which sprung a couple of things to mind. "Too late to save them" could have been referring to Lucy, which implies that 16 knew what was going to happen, past, present and future in a sense that he knew Desmond would have to stab (kill?) Lucy for whatever reason (possibly the DNA thing, later explained). Which would make sense when he knew to place the truth inside the memories, because he knew that another would take over his place. However, he does say "them", not 'her' in that sentence, making it plural, therefore that does disprove my original assumption. Perhaps he could be referring to the other assassin teams instead? Remember from the emails and Lucy's worries over the teams going 'dark' (missing?).

16 also says "She is not who you think she is. Everything you hope to become, everything you hold dear, itís already gone". Note that when Desmond asks "who?", he is referring to the "them". It is 16 that goes on speaking about a "she", which is uncertain whether he means Lucy (as many hypothesise), or Juno, or Eve, or whoever. The second part of the quote however supports the opinion that 16 is very much all knowing. Now I may be likening him to a God or one with the knowledge of a God, which could explain how he knew to place the truth in the memories, however it may be just another symptom of the bleeding effect. But I can't help but think that maybe he became enlightened in a way, like in the beliefs of Buddhism, not to mention there are references to temples and the whole passing of one's memories through genetics can be likened to past lives (I mean no offense by this if any was taken, I am merely linking a point, not attacking one's religion in any way).

"Eden. She... in Eden. Find Eve. The Key. Her DNA". Okay, so this is also referring to the 'she' we don't really know. I'm just going to focus on the "Her DNA" part. Now, Juno controlled Desmond to stab Lucy, and no one really knows whats going on (until everything is revealed in the next game that is). Now I'm just going back a couple of scenes, but doesn't something go along the lines of "DNA recognised" (I've only played the game once, so apologies if this is completely wrong) when Desmond touches the apple? Relating this back to what 16 says, couldn't Lucy's DNA be the key to finding Eve (which would mean that she is a descendant of Eve) in Eden? Also, I'm not sure if its particularly true, but I read somewhere that in that last flash where you see Desmond and Lucy on the floor, you can see the apple in Lucy's hand instead of Desmond's.

And I think that's all I can think of mentioning.

LightRey
12-05-2010, 04:26 AM
IamF3Ar, you make a lot of sense (THANK YOU for that, btw) I would like to say though that those red footsteps can first be seen the first memory AFTER you enter the villa (so not before) making them unlikely to be Ezio's. Also, they seem to go the other way.
I would also like to point out that the Glyphs aren't part of Ezio's memories, they're computer code left by 16 in the animus, which were taken by Lucy when she took the memory core.

I would also like to say something about the theory that in AC we're just viewing Desmond through the animus. The only real evidence suggesting this is that whole talk you can hear between those 2 guys during the credits.
However, if you listen closely you can quite clearly hear DESMOND's voice yelling "No!" right after they stop talking. This kinda makes that theory about as likely as it would've been right after AC1 or AC2.

Razrback16
12-05-2010, 08:48 AM
I thought about this more last night and after having time to digest the ending and the truth video some more, I have a really hard time seeing them kill off Lucy in the story -- she's an integral part of the story, as well as one of the leads in the romance portion of the story between the main characters. They would really pi$$ some people off if they truly killed her off, and they have to know that. I really don't think she's dead, it's just another Ubisoft twist IMO that will be cleared up at the beginning of the next game. It's just to keep you interested and guessing so you'll stay plugged in to the AC universe while you wait for the next game.

SAVMATIC
12-05-2010, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by Razrback16:
Are we really Desmond or someone else? (ie. his son looking back through the Animus, etc.)

This wont be answered because it doesnt even deserve an answer

SAVMATIC
12-05-2010, 09:09 AM
ummm lucy isnt the descendant of eve(how would this make ANY sense), shes a ****ing templar mole. get it together already.

and nobody has any proof that Juno controlled Desmond. It was more likely programmed into the apple. Juno and Minerva are holographs of dead gods, no?

Ive been saying 16 is alive. 16 is someone whos integral to the story, not lucy. shes just a novelty to have a woman in the game. Who 16 could really be is a big mystery right now. Is he William? Or someone else entirely. Is it also possible hes not even physically alive, because its a fact that he imprinted his consciousness into the animus, which is how he communicated in ACB. We need answers on 16 eventually, he must be a very powerful assassin and very wise. It seems more likely at this point that Lucy is indeed a Templar and was trying to make Desmond think 16 was crazy and/or dead. If the voices arent Templar....maybe its William AND Subject 16.
Also, no way in hell is the whole crew Templar. No way in hell. Shaun clearly has connections to the other Assassins and they trust him. Also, one time I left the animus during seq 5 and Lucy was no where to be found. Is this a coincidence or something fishy?

X10J
12-05-2010, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by ROCwd:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by X10J:
Wasn't Lucy an assassin before she worked at abtsergo? Do you think she converted to Templar, or was she a triple agent from the start?

Also: Do you think that the rest of the gang are templars? That would make more sense than just Lucy.

I haven't heard anything to that effect but maybe she was.

I don't think that the rest of them were Templars. If they were then Luno would have mentioned all 3 in the vault and the point about the unmarked van wouldn't stand. I think Lucy was approached by the Assassin's to become a sort of "mole" for them inside Abstergo but in accepting she became a mole for the Templars instead.. if you follow? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Didn't Rebecca mention not seeing her for a few years, that is before she joined Abstergo.

Also: If the point was to make Desmond think that he was helping the assassins but realy have him help the templars then wouldn't it be safer to put him in a group of templars posing as assassins, instead of a group of assassins with one templar. That way you also wouldn't leak info into the assassins.

ROCwd
12-05-2010, 09:26 AM
Also: If the point was to make Desmond think that he was helping the assassins but realy have him help the templars then wouldn't it be safer to put him in a group of templars posing as assassins, instead of a group of assassins with one templar. That way you also wouldn't leak info into the assassins.

Think about it this way. If they have a false group of Assassin's then sure, it would be easier in terms of getting Desmond to cooperate, but if they have 1 Templar placed within a real group of Assassin's then it works to their advantage in more ways than just Desmond. They also have a steady source of information from someone that is trusted by the group and also, a way in which they can give mis-information to the Assassin's and send them on a series of "wild goose chases" paving the way for them to execute whatever plan they have in store.

X10J
12-05-2010, 09:39 AM
Thats true. But they're also giving them info. Everything seen in the animus, seen by Desmond It's all going to the assassins, They learned everything abstergo learned.

And please correct me if I'm wrong, but she didn't send them on any wild goose chases.

If abstergo was behind Desmond's escape then why did they attack the hide out?

ROCwd
12-05-2010, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by X10J:
Thats true. But they're also giving them info. Everything seen in the animus, seen by Desmond It's all going to the assassins, They learned everything abstergo learned.

And please correct me if I'm wrong, but she didn't send them on any wild goose chases.

If abstergo was behind Desmond's escape then why did they attack the hide out?

It's true they are giving them info, but letting them think that it's information that Abstergo don't have works to their advantage also, it gives them the upper hand.

No wild goose chases that we know of, but perhaps the whole thing about the satellitte is just a distraction from something much bigger they are planning on that day?

Attacking the hideout could well have been just another way for them to further convince Desmond and the rest of the Assassin's that Lucy's escape was real and it has damaged them.

X10J
12-05-2010, 09:49 AM
Do you think that she manipulated the e-mails at abstergo?

It's all certainly plausible, but also circumstanial.

rocketxsurgeon
12-05-2010, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by IamF3Ar:
I've spent some time reading these posts, and while I can agree with some, I can't believe others (due to a personal opinion, not because they are false or don't have supporting proof).

Many of you mention the footsteps and relate it to Lucy being a Templar (yeah, I know I'm going back to this, but oh well), but aren't they just the footsteps that were there at the start of the game, even before the sequences that Lucy went missing? I just associated them with the steps Ezio took while injured, leading up to the Villa and inside the current hideout, where he escaped through the back.

EXINFiNiTiX also posted the script for the truth from ACB (thanks by the way), which sprung a couple of things to mind. "Too late to save them" could have been referring to Lucy, which implies that 16 knew what was going to happen, past, present and future in a sense that he knew Desmond would have to stab (kill?) Lucy for whatever reason (possibly the DNA thing, later explained). Which would make sense when he knew to place the truth inside the memories, because he knew that another would take over his place. However, he does say "them", not 'her' in that sentence, making it plural, therefore that does disprove my original assumption. Perhaps he could be referring to the other assassin teams instead? Remember from the emails and Lucy's worries over the teams going 'dark' (missing?).

16 also says "She is not who you think she is. Everything you hope to become, everything you hold dear, itís already gone". Note that when Desmond asks "who?", he is referring to the "them". It is 16 that goes on speaking about a "she", which is uncertain whether he means Lucy (as many hypothesise), or Juno, or Eve, or whoever. The second part of the quote however supports the opinion that 16 is very much all knowing. Now I may be likening him to a God or one with the knowledge of a God, which could explain how he knew to place the truth in the memories, however it may be just another symptom of the bleeding effect. But I can't help but think that maybe he became enlightened in a way, like in the beliefs of Buddhism, not to mention there are references to temples and the whole passing of one's memories through genetics can be likened to past lives (I mean no offense by this if any was taken, I am merely linking a point, not attacking one's religion in any way).

"Eden. She... in Eden. Find Eve. The Key. Her DNA". Okay, so this is also referring to the 'she' we don't really know. I'm just going to focus on the "Her DNA" part. Now, Juno controlled Desmond to stab Lucy, and no one really knows whats going on (until everything is revealed in the next game that is). Now I'm just going back a couple of scenes, but doesn't something go along the lines of "DNA recognised" (I've only played the game once, so apologies if this is completely wrong) when Desmond touches the apple? Relating this back to what 16 says, couldn't Lucy's DNA be the key to finding Eve (which would mean that she is a descendant of Eve) in Eden? Also, I'm not sure if its particularly true, but I read somewhere that in that last flash where you see Desmond and Lucy on the floor, you can see the apple in Lucy's hand instead of Desmond's.

And I think that's all I can think of mentioning.


I like your post. It states points thoroughly and gives support.

Your post has made me think about it quite a lot. And i have a theory to just put into the mix.

What if killing Lucy has sent her to Eden?
What if Eve is a metaphorical of selected individual?

This is just random guess. But anything can be expected in this game, we have Gods, an afterlife is absolutely possible.

ROCwd
12-05-2010, 10:07 AM
Of course, every post here is circumstansial.. I think if I'm right about her being a Templar and the other stuff then, yes those emails were sent by the same people that were planning the escape in the first place?

X10J
12-05-2010, 10:14 AM
If your right then I wonder if they tried anything like that with 16 or the others.

ROCwd
12-05-2010, 10:33 AM
Quite possibly, certainly would explain how (if it's true) how 16 knows that she is a traitor.

X10J
12-05-2010, 10:36 AM
Yea, but then I don't he'd be at abstergo.

LordAcoustico
12-05-2010, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by rocketxsurgeon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IamF3Ar:
I've spent some time reading these posts, and while I can agree with some, I can't believe others (due to a personal opinion, not because they are false or don't have supporting proof).

Many of you mention the footsteps and relate it to Lucy being a Templar (yeah, I know I'm going back to this, but oh well), but aren't they just the footsteps that were there at the start of the game, even before the sequences that Lucy went missing? I just associated them with the steps Ezio took while injured, leading up to the Villa and inside the current hideout, where he escaped through the back.

EXINFiNiTiX also posted the script for the truth from ACB (thanks by the way), which sprung a couple of things to mind. "Too late to save them" could have been referring to Lucy, which implies that 16 knew what was going to happen, past, present and future in a sense that he knew Desmond would have to stab (kill?) Lucy for whatever reason (possibly the DNA thing, later explained). Which would make sense when he knew to place the truth inside the memories, because he knew that another would take over his place. However, he does say "them", not 'her' in that sentence, making it plural, therefore that does disprove my original assumption. Perhaps he could be referring to the other assassin teams instead? Remember from the emails and Lucy's worries over the teams going 'dark' (missing?).

16 also says "She is not who you think she is. Everything you hope to become, everything you hold dear, itís already gone". Note that when Desmond asks "who?", he is referring to the "them". It is 16 that goes on speaking about a "she", which is uncertain whether he means Lucy (as many hypothesise), or Juno, or Eve, or whoever. The second part of the quote however supports the opinion that 16 is very much all knowing. Now I may be likening him to a God or one with the knowledge of a God, which could explain how he knew to place the truth in the memories, however it may be just another symptom of the bleeding effect. But I can't help but think that maybe he became enlightened in a way, like in the beliefs of Buddhism, not to mention there are references to temples and the whole passing of one's memories through genetics can be likened to past lives (I mean no offense by this if any was taken, I am merely linking a point, not attacking one's religion in any way).

"Eden. She... in Eden. Find Eve. The Key. Her DNA". Okay, so this is also referring to the 'she' we don't really know. I'm just going to focus on the "Her DNA" part. Now, Juno controlled Desmond to stab Lucy, and no one really knows whats going on (until everything is revealed in the next game that is). Now I'm just going back a couple of scenes, but doesn't something go along the lines of "DNA recognised" (I've only played the game once, so apologies if this is completely wrong) when Desmond touches the apple? Relating this back to what 16 says, couldn't Lucy's DNA be the key to finding Eve (which would mean that she is a descendant of Eve) in Eden? Also, I'm not sure if its particularly true, but I read somewhere that in that last flash where you see Desmond and Lucy on the floor, you can see the apple in Lucy's hand instead of Desmond's.

And I think that's all I can think of mentioning.


I like your post. It states points thoroughly and gives support.

Your post has made me think about it quite a lot. And i have a theory to just put into the mix.

What if killing Lucy has sent her to Eden?
What if Eve is a metaphorical of selected individual?

This is just random guess. But anything can be expected in this game, we have Gods, an afterlife is absolutely possible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure the guys (or girls)at Ubisoft are just laughing at us while reading these posts :P

Your idea is possible, I mean yea there should be an afterlife, but how would Desmond get to Eden exactly? :S
It's ruined, or hidden somewhere with no one knowing where it is... soo. :S

And Subject 16 talked about his son which is too weak and the sun (the sun, fine we know it will blow up unless he saves the world), but son? :S

X10J
12-05-2010, 12:49 PM
I think the devs enjoy reading the things we come up with.

ROCwd
12-05-2010, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by X10J:
I think the devs enjoy reading the things we come up with.

Agreed, as I said before, perhaps we will point out something they overlooked in the past and can expand on, making for better games in the future http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

X10J
12-05-2010, 12:59 PM
Deffinitely.

Or at the very east just be like "Holy ****, look at what we did."

rocketxsurgeon
12-05-2010, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by LordAcoustico:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rocketxsurgeon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IamF3Ar:
I've spent some time reading these posts, and while I can agree with some, I can't believe others (due to a personal opinion, not because they are false or don't have supporting proof).

Many of you mention the footsteps and relate it to Lucy being a Templar (yeah, I know I'm going back to this, but oh well), but aren't they just the footsteps that were there at the start of the game, even before the sequences that Lucy went missing? I just associated them with the steps Ezio took while injured, leading up to the Villa and inside the current hideout, where he escaped through the back.

EXINFiNiTiX also posted the script for the truth from ACB (thanks by the way), which sprung a couple of things to mind. "Too late to save them" could have been referring to Lucy, which implies that 16 knew what was going to happen, past, present and future in a sense that he knew Desmond would have to stab (kill?) Lucy for whatever reason (possibly the DNA thing, later explained). Which would make sense when he knew to place the truth inside the memories, because he knew that another would take over his place. However, he does say "them", not 'her' in that sentence, making it plural, therefore that does disprove my original assumption. Perhaps he could be referring to the other assassin teams instead? Remember from the emails and Lucy's worries over the teams going 'dark' (missing?).

16 also says "She is not who you think she is. Everything you hope to become, everything you hold dear, itís already gone". Note that when Desmond asks "who?", he is referring to the "them". It is 16 that goes on speaking about a "she", which is uncertain whether he means Lucy (as many hypothesise), or Juno, or Eve, or whoever. The second part of the quote however supports the opinion that 16 is very much all knowing. Now I may be likening him to a God or one with the knowledge of a God, which could explain how he knew to place the truth in the memories, however it may be just another symptom of the bleeding effect. But I can't help but think that maybe he became enlightened in a way, like in the beliefs of Buddhism, not to mention there are references to temples and the whole passing of one's memories through genetics can be likened to past lives (I mean no offense by this if any was taken, I am merely linking a point, not attacking one's religion in any way).

"Eden. She... in Eden. Find Eve. The Key. Her DNA". Okay, so this is also referring to the 'she' we don't really know. I'm just going to focus on the "Her DNA" part. Now, Juno controlled Desmond to stab Lucy, and no one really knows whats going on (until everything is revealed in the next game that is). Now I'm just going back a couple of scenes, but doesn't something go along the lines of "DNA recognised" (I've only played the game once, so apologies if this is completely wrong) when Desmond touches the apple? Relating this back to what 16 says, couldn't Lucy's DNA be the key to finding Eve (which would mean that she is a descendant of Eve) in Eden? Also, I'm not sure if its particularly true, but I read somewhere that in that last flash where you see Desmond and Lucy on the floor, you can see the apple in Lucy's hand instead of Desmond's.

And I think that's all I can think of mentioning.


I like your post. It states points thoroughly and gives support.

Your post has made me think about it quite a lot. And i have a theory to just put into the mix.

What if killing Lucy has sent her to Eden?
What if Eve is a metaphorical of selected individual?

This is just random guess. But anything can be expected in this game, we have Gods, an afterlife is absolutely possible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure the guys (or girls)at Ubisoft are just laughing at us while reading these posts :P

Your idea is possible, I mean yea there should be an afterlife, but how would Desmond get to Eden exactly? :S
It's ruined, or hidden somewhere with no one knowing where it is... soo. :S

And Subject 16 talked about his son which is too weak and the sun (the sun, fine we know it will blow up unless he saves the world), but son? :S </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm having a random stab in the dark. There are many ways to get to afterlifes. Take Tomb raider Underworld for example, the entrance to helheim was under the Arctic sea :P

Obviously its just a random observation. But Lucy certainly isn't going to stay dead.

What bugs me though, is that why they put him back into the Animus? If it was Abstergo that found him, why?
Same said for the Assassins.

Neither of them would have a reason to put Desmond back into the Animus. Unless they needed something else, or it was the only way to save Desmond...

LightRey
12-05-2010, 01:41 PM
I'm not really sure about the whole afterlife theory. I mean, Minerva and Juno said that TWCB were already gone and I personally think that that means that what you're seeing of them is just a holographic message they left behind that just happens to make it seem like they're actually talking to you because they could predict it all with the PoE's.
I would also like to express my annoyance with the people that are taking Lucy being a templar as fact. There's absolutely no strong evidence supporting this theory at this point and as such it's no more than speculation. Stating it as fact to me is like saying the moon landing never happened.

IamF3Ar
12-05-2010, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by rocketxsurgeon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LordAcoustico:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rocketxsurgeon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IamF3Ar:
I've spent some time reading these posts, and while I can agree with some, I can't believe others (due to a personal opinion, not because they are false or don't have supporting proof).

Many of you mention the footsteps and relate it to Lucy being a Templar (yeah, I know I'm going back to this, but oh well), but aren't they just the footsteps that were there at the start of the game, even before the sequences that Lucy went missing? I just associated them with the steps Ezio took while injured, leading up to the Villa and inside the current hideout, where he escaped through the back.

EXINFiNiTiX also posted the script for the truth from ACB (thanks by the way), which sprung a couple of things to mind. "Too late to save them" could have been referring to Lucy, which implies that 16 knew what was going to happen, past, present and future in a sense that he knew Desmond would have to stab (kill?) Lucy for whatever reason (possibly the DNA thing, later explained). Which would make sense when he knew to place the truth inside the memories, because he knew that another would take over his place. However, he does say "them", not 'her' in that sentence, making it plural, therefore that does disprove my original assumption. Perhaps he could be referring to the other assassin teams instead? Remember from the emails and Lucy's worries over the teams going 'dark' (missing?).

16 also says "She is not who you think she is. Everything you hope to become, everything you hold dear, itís already gone". Note that when Desmond asks "who?", he is referring to the "them". It is 16 that goes on speaking about a "she", which is uncertain whether he means Lucy (as many hypothesise), or Juno, or Eve, or whoever. The second part of the quote however supports the opinion that 16 is very much all knowing. Now I may be likening him to a God or one with the knowledge of a God, which could explain how he knew to place the truth in the memories, however it may be just another symptom of the bleeding effect. But I can't help but think that maybe he became enlightened in a way, like in the beliefs of Buddhism, not to mention there are references to temples and the whole passing of one's memories through genetics can be likened to past lives (I mean no offense by this if any was taken, I am merely linking a point, not attacking one's religion in any way).

"Eden. She... in Eden. Find Eve. The Key. Her DNA". Okay, so this is also referring to the 'she' we don't really know. I'm just going to focus on the "Her DNA" part. Now, Juno controlled Desmond to stab Lucy, and no one really knows whats going on (until everything is revealed in the next game that is). Now I'm just going back a couple of scenes, but doesn't something go along the lines of "DNA recognised" (I've only played the game once, so apologies if this is completely wrong) when Desmond touches the apple? Relating this back to what 16 says, couldn't Lucy's DNA be the key to finding Eve (which would mean that she is a descendant of Eve) in Eden? Also, I'm not sure if its particularly true, but I read somewhere that in that last flash where you see Desmond and Lucy on the floor, you can see the apple in Lucy's hand instead of Desmond's.

And I think that's all I can think of mentioning.


I like your post. It states points thoroughly and gives support.

Your post has made me think about it quite a lot. And i have a theory to just put into the mix.

What if killing Lucy has sent her to Eden?
What if Eve is a metaphorical of selected individual?

This is just random guess. But anything can be expected in this game, we have Gods, an afterlife is absolutely possible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure the guys (or girls)at Ubisoft are just laughing at us while reading these posts :P

Your idea is possible, I mean yea there should be an afterlife, but how would Desmond get to Eden exactly? :S
It's ruined, or hidden somewhere with no one knowing where it is... soo. :S

And Subject 16 talked about his son which is too weak and the sun (the sun, fine we know it will blow up unless he saves the world), but son? :S </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm having a random stab in the dark. There are many ways to get to afterlifes. Take Tomb raider Underworld for example, the entrance to helheim was under the Arctic sea :P

Obviously its just a random observation. But Lucy certainly isn't going to stay dead.

What bugs me though, is that why they put him back into the Animus? If it was Abstergo that found him, why?
Same said for the Assassins.

Neither of them would have a reason to put Desmond back into the Animus. Unless they needed something else, or it was the only way to save Desmond... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not to mention he seemed partly conscious at the end of it, if it is his voice saying "no" at the end. He could have been delirious or speaking while in an unconscious state, or perhaps even experiencing an internal, mental hallucination. The apple could be capable of that, and it is far fetched, but maybe Desmond is seeing Eden in his mind or something?

Juno does say something along the lines of "It is done" when he stabs Lucy, so really whatever 'it' is is anyones' guess.

Ezio513
12-05-2010, 04:49 PM
In a glyph for AC2 they talk about Jesus Christ having the "SHROUD" which was said it could ressurect the dead. I think that in some manner Desmond or the Assassins either have or will find the shroud to bring back Lucy "IF" she is dead.

SWJS
12-05-2010, 04:58 PM
I still refuse to believe we're Desmonds son, or that 16 and Desmond are related. There was never any conclusive evidence for either theory, and the latter is a massive clichť.

I will, however, throw in my two cents about this whole "Lucy's a Templar" theory.

In dialogue from AC2, we learn Shaun jioned the assassins at around 14-15 years old, and Lucy was already an assassin with Rebecca at the time. They're all in their mid-late 20s, right? That means Lucy's always been an assassin. It was just an assassin plan to have Lucy infiltrate Abstergo and spy on them, as well as leak info. Therefore, Lucy could only be a Templar if Abstergo somehow turned her toward the cross during her infiltration, though I doubt she'd just go and betray her best friends.

X10J
12-05-2010, 05:10 PM
Ezio is ancestor to Desmond and 16. They share a common ancestor, ergo they are related.

DarthEzio55
12-05-2010, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by EzioTheAssassin:
I still refuse to believe we're Desmonds son, or that 16 and Desmond are related. There was never any conclusive evidence for either theory, and the latter is a massive clichť.

I will, however, throw in my two cents about this whole "Lucy's a Templar" theory.

In dialogue from AC2, we learn Shaun jioned the assassins at around 14-15 years old, and Lucy was already an assassin with Rebecca at the time. They're all in their mid-late 20s, right? That means Lucy's always been an assassin. It was just an assassin plan to have Lucy infiltrate Abstergo and spy on them, as well as leak info. Therefore, Lucy could only be a Templar if Abstergo somehow turned her toward the cross during her infiltration, though I doubt she'd just go and betray her best friends.

16 and desmond are probably distant cousins

SWJS
12-05-2010, 05:16 PM
Ezio is ancestor to Desmond and 16. They share a common ancestor, ergo they are related.
Where is it ever said that they share a common ancestor in Ezio?
16 and desmond are probably distant cousins Even though it's a possibility, it's still a clichť.

Kaena2012
12-05-2010, 09:50 PM
Well i for one when first saw the footsteps and Lucy was not around i thought it had to do with her. Perhaps however it is more of a looking into the past sort of like a trail from the past you know just like when he seen Ezio open up gates and place the apple, etc.
Oh and i also wonder perhaps not at all relevant why for the Cristina sequence it is red?
Oh and check out the video someone posted on youtube for the final sequence when as you go around Minerva i believe it is appears and or talks along the way not to mention about the talk of "We can distract him, We can see past him, take left when he strikes right but his reach is so very far, his stamina unending, we cannot evade his grasp, not forever"

Perhaps what i quoted above well get people talking some more, but i enjoy reading what you guys have to say

Redfeather1975
12-05-2010, 10:02 PM
As for the red footsteps.

They are coming from where the van was parked and going back to the entrance they used to bring the equipment into the basement.

They are more than 1 person, moving forward, but having their feet on an angle.
I am guessing they are from carrying the heavy equipment in.

At first I didn't understand why they were in red, until I realized that assassin use trail markings that show up in red to help point each other in a direction.

So it is possible the footprints were not cleaned up on purpose. So that they stand out in eagle vision to act as some kind of pointer.

Alpha Ender
12-05-2010, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by EzioTheAssassin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ezio is ancestor to Desmond and 16. They share a common ancestor, ergo they are related.
Where is it ever said that they share a common ancestor in Ezio?
16 and desmond are probably distant cousins Even though it's a possibility, it's still a clichť. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

*sigh* It says they are related in the very beginning of ACII. When Lucy puts Desmond back into the Animus, she is doing that because she wants to find if there was a link between him, Ezio, and Subject 16. She was interested because Abstergo had been focusing heavily on that section of Subject 16's memories for quite some time, thus suggesting that there was something extremely important in that time frame. While you are in the (Abstergo) Animus, it shows two columns of DNA; one is yours, the other is stored scans of Subject 16's. The Animus finds a similarity, and you enter the birthing sequence of Ezio.

n64vt1
12-05-2010, 11:15 PM
i've been reviewing the all the videos over and over just so i can throw some guess out there for you guys and gals to think about, I been mostly reviewing what 16 said for 2 reason we all know he knows something and put these clues for desmond to find out the truth what truth?? in AC2 he leaves a video for desmond to find about adam and eve escaping with the apple i think they had that so you can how the apple came about now in ACB one you see 16 and he talks the desmond i believe we all can agree he's tring to tell demond the truth and what he has to do the sence word for word is
Desmond: Subject 16?
Subject 16: Yes, yes, Subject 17.
Desmond: Youíre dead. I saw your blood.
Subject 16: No time. It is far later than you know. Too late to save them.
Desmond: Who?
Subject 16: She is not who you think she is. Everything you hope to become, everything you hold dear, itís already gone.
Desmond: Explain. Please.
Subject 16: Eden. She... in Eden. Find Eve. The Key. Her DNA.
Desmond: Tell me!
Subject 16: I cannot... The sun... Your son... Too weak... Must replenish energy...
Desmond: Donít go.
Subject 16: I am with you 'til the end. Find me in the darkness

and yes had put it all in lol anyways i see some of you are only looking at one part and that "She is not who you think she is" saying that he talking about lucy being a templar maybe but i starting to think not i could be wrong but if you do that it like jaming a piece of the puzzle in the wrong place just to make it fit, anyway moving on one thing is he refers to desmond as Subject 17 not desmond witch could mean noting or that all 16 know about him not going to get to much in to that, the second part he said "No time. It is far later than you know. Too late to save them" so how this line go into play easy lets break it down "No time" just means he don't have time to explain how he's alive Here is the key in this whole clip i belive "It is far later than you know. Too late to save Them." ??? think about it "It is far later than you know" the only thing that fits is he not in the right time so how that, maybe just maybe he's in an Animus in Abstergo and insted of make the Animus look to the past they made a fake world or a fake past to get the info they need to use the P.O.E To fix the world that got destroyed all ready what put the next part in to play "Too late to save Them." could mean the assassin's but i think it means everyone i think the tamplars know that the world was going to be destroyed so they let i happen so they can rebuild it with them or who ever is the top dog being the king but they need desmond to use the P.O.E to fix it so making him think he's help the good guys but not it also fit at the ending parts one with the guys talking saying "voice 1: S%!@ He gone into shock.
Voice 2: Put him back on the machine it's the only way to fix this. Voice 1: But the Animus did this to him. Voice 2: Am i the expert or not, do it! voice 3: no." could be that juno did that some how to wake him up into realty moving on the next part.
16 said "She is not who you think she is. Everything you hope to become, everything you hold dear, itís already gone." break it up again 1st part "She is not who you think she is." that can mean 50 thing (she=lucy or not) so insted of explaining them all let's move on to the 2nd part "Everything you hope to become, everything you hold dear, itís already gone." meaning that what he was supose to be the world he knows is gone and he can't change that moven on next line.
"Eden. She... in Eden. Find Eve. The Key. Her DNA." break down 1st part "Eden. She... in Eden." She again could mean eve or it could mean the real lucy is in Eden. 2nd part "Find Eve. The Key. Her DNA." meaning that Eve DNA is the key, key to what most like Eden but could mean something else next.
"I cannot... The sun... Your son... Too weak... Must replenish energy..." when he said "I cannot" when desmond ask him to tell me could mean if he dose that the tamplar could find out what they need to know and they wouldn't need desmond anymore so to save his left he stop the question next "The sun... Your son... Too weak...Must replenish energy..." it hard to know what he mean cause he keep cutting out but "the Sun' could be he talking about what happen to the sun "your son" could be he's looking for him or tring to free him and the last part "Too weak... Must replenish energy..." could be he's alive but in a program form meaning his minds in a computer and has a limit time to be in that form the last i don't think i need to go over so that my guess ok time for your guys and gals to attack if you want and i know it seems far fech but that what ubisoft wants don't you think something that no one would expect to have thought of but that the basic idea of it but you guys already thinking i'm nuts lol.

X10J
12-06-2010, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by EzioTheAssassin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ezio is ancestor to Desmond and 16. They share a common ancestor, ergo they are related.
Where is it ever said that they share a common ancestor in Ezio?
16 and desmond are probably distant cousins Even though it's a possibility, it's still a clichť. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

3:00 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1DnCNdhPPE)

LightRey
12-06-2010, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by n64vt1:
i've been reviewing the all the videos over and over just so i can throw some guess out there for you guys and gals to think about, I been mostly reviewing what 16 said for 2 reason we all know he knows something and put these clues for desmond to find out the truth what truth?? in AC2 he leaves a video for desmond to find about adam and eve escaping with the apple i think they had that so you can how the apple came about now in ACB one you see 16 and he talks the desmond i believe we all can agree he's tring to tell demond the truth and what he has to do the sence word for word is
Desmond: Subject 16?
Subject 16: Yes, yes, Subject 17.
Desmond: Youíre dead. I saw your blood.
Subject 16: No time. It is far later than you know. Too late to save them.
Desmond: Who?
Subject 16: She is not who you think she is. Everything you hope to become, everything you hold dear, itís already gone.
Desmond: Explain. Please.
Subject 16: Eden. She... in Eden. Find Eve. The Key. Her DNA.
Desmond: Tell me!
Subject 16: I cannot... The sun... Your son... Too weak... Must replenish energy...
Desmond: Donít go.
Subject 16: I am with you 'til the end. Find me in the darkness

and yes had put it all in lol anyways i see some of you are only looking at one part and that "She is not who you think she is" saying that he talking about lucy being a templar maybe but i starting to think not i could be wrong but if you do that it like jaming a piece of the puzzle in the wrong place just to make it fit, anyway moving on one thing is he refers to desmond as Subject 17 not desmond witch could mean noting or that all 16 know about him not going to get to much in to that, the second part he said "No time. It is far later than you know. Too late to save them" so how this line go into play easy lets break it down "No time" just means he don't have time to explain how he's alive Here is the key in this whole clip i belive "It is far later than you know. Too late to save Them." ??? think about it "It is far later than you know" the only thing that fits is he not in the right time so how that, maybe just maybe he's in an Animus in Abstergo and insted of make the Animus look to the past they made a fake world or a fake past to get the info they need to use the P.O.E To fix the world that got destroyed all ready what put the next part in to play "Too late to save Them." could mean the assassin's but i think it means everyone i think the tamplars know that the world was going to be destroyed so they let i happen so they can rebuild it with them or who ever is the top dog being the king but they need desmond to use the P.O.E to fix it so making him think he's help the good guys but not it also fit at the ending parts one with the guys talking saying "voice 1: S%!@ He gone into shock.
Voice 2: Put him back on the machine it's the only way to fix this. Voice 1: But the Animus did this to him. Voice 2: Am i the expert or not, do it! voice 3: no." could be that juno did that some how to wake him up into realty moving on the next part.
16 said "She is not who you think she is. Everything you hope to become, everything you hold dear, itís already gone." break it up again 1st part "She is not who you think she is." that can mean 50 thing (she=lucy or not) so insted of explaining them all let's move on to the 2nd part "Everything you hope to become, everything you hold dear, itís already gone." meaning that what he was supose to be the world he knows is gone and he can't change that moven on next line.
"Eden. She... in Eden. Find Eve. The Key. Her DNA." break down 1st part "Eden. She... in Eden." She again could mean eve or it could mean the real lucy is in Eden. 2nd part "Find Eve. The Key. Her DNA." meaning that Eve DNA is the key, key to what most like Eden but could mean something else next.
"I cannot... The sun... Your son... Too weak... Must replenish energy..." when he said "I cannot" when desmond ask him to tell me could mean if he dose that the tamplar could find out what they need to know and they wouldn't need desmond anymore so to save his left he stop the question next "The sun... Your son... Too weak...Must replenish energy..." it hard to know what he mean cause he keep cutting out but "the Sun' could be he talking about what happen to the sun "your son" could be he's looking for him or tring to free him and the last part "Too weak... Must replenish energy..." could be he's alive but in a program form meaning his minds in a computer and has a limit time to be in that form the last i don't think i need to go over so that my guess ok time for your guys and gals to attack if you want and i know it seems far fech but that what ubisoft wants don't you think something that no one would expect to have thought of but that the basic idea of it but you guys already thinking i'm nuts lol.
I think you're overthinking it a little, but the basis of your theory does hold up.
also, piece of advice, try not to use too much text. It discourages people to read your post.

X10J
12-06-2010, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by n64vt1:
i've been reviewing the all the videos over and over just so i can throw some guess out there for you guys and gals to think about, I been mostly reviewing what 16 said for 2 reason we all know he knows something and put these clues for desmond to find out the truth what truth?? in AC2 he leaves a video for desmond to find about adam and eve escaping with the apple i think they had that so you can how the apple came about now in ACB one you see 16 and he talks the desmond i believe we all can agree he's tring to tell demond the truth and what he has to do the sence word for word is
Desmond: Subject 16?
Subject 16: Yes, yes, Subject 17.
Desmond: Youíre dead. I saw your blood.
Subject 16: No time. It is far later than you know. Too late to save them.
Desmond: Who?
Subject 16: She is not who you think she is. Everything you hope to become, everything you hold dear, itís already gone.
Desmond: Explain. Please.
Subject 16: Eden. She... in Eden. Find Eve. The Key. Her DNA.
Desmond: Tell me!
Subject 16: I cannot... The sun... Your son... Too weak... Must replenish energy...
Desmond: Donít go.
Subject 16: I am with you 'til the end. Find me in the darkness

and yes had put it all in lol anyways i see some of you are only looking at one part and that "She is not who you think she is" saying that he talking about lucy being a templar maybe but i starting to think not i could be wrong but if you do that it like jaming a piece of the puzzle in the wrong place just to make it fit, anyway moving on one thing is he refers to desmond as Subject 17 not desmond witch could mean noting or that all 16 know about him not going to get to much in to that, the second part he said "No time. It is far later than you know. Too late to save them" so how this line go into play easy lets break it down "No time" just means he don't have time to explain how he's alive Here is the key in this whole clip i belive "It is far later than you know. Too late to save Them." ??? think about it "It is far later than you know" the only thing that fits is he not in the right time so how that, maybe just maybe he's in an Animus in Abstergo and insted of make the Animus look to the past they made a fake world or a fake past to get the info they need to use the P.O.E To fix the world that got destroyed all ready what put the next part in to play "Too late to save Them." could mean the assassin's but i think it means everyone i think the tamplars know that the world was going to be destroyed so they let i happen so they can rebuild it with them or who ever is the top dog being the king but they need desmond to use the P.O.E to fix it so making him think he's help the good guys but not it also fit at the ending parts one with the guys talking saying "voice 1: S%!@ He gone into shock.
Voice 2: Put him back on the machine it's the only way to fix this. Voice 1: But the Animus did this to him. Voice 2: Am i the expert or not, do it! voice 3: no." could be that juno did that some how to wake him up into realty moving on the next part.
16 said "She is not who you think she is. Everything you hope to become, everything you hold dear, itís already gone." break it up again 1st part "She is not who you think she is." that can mean 50 thing (she=lucy or not) so insted of explaining them all let's move on to the 2nd part "Everything you hope to become, everything you hold dear, itís already gone." meaning that what he was supose to be the world he knows is gone and he can't change that moven on next line.
"Eden. She... in Eden. Find Eve. The Key. Her DNA." break down 1st part "Eden. She... in Eden." She again could mean eve or it could mean the real lucy is in Eden. 2nd part "Find Eve. The Key. Her DNA." meaning that Eve DNA is the key, key to what most like Eden but could mean something else next.
"I cannot... The sun... Your son... Too weak... Must replenish energy..." when he said "I cannot" when desmond ask him to tell me could mean if he dose that the tamplar could find out what they need to know and they wouldn't need desmond anymore so to save his left he stop the question next "The sun... Your son... Too weak...Must replenish energy..." it hard to know what he mean cause he keep cutting out but "the Sun' could be he talking about what happen to the sun "your son" could be he's looking for him or tring to free him and the last part "Too weak... Must replenish energy..." could be he's alive but in a program form meaning his minds in a computer and has a limit time to be in that form the last i don't think i need to go over so that my guess ok time for your guys and gals to attack if you want and i know it seems far fech but that what ubisoft wants don't you think something that no one would expect to have thought of but that the basic idea of it but you guys already thinking i'm nuts lol.

"s", "ed", "ly", and punctuation are excellent tools, please use them.

LightRey
12-06-2010, 01:01 AM
I think earlier someone mentioned something about Abstergo becoming interested in Ezio's memories. I'm pretty sure that's not true. It was 16 himself who got obsessed with 15th century Italy.

d-ShLuM
12-06-2010, 02:57 AM
I've been reading through everyones' posts so far, and there are definitely a lot of different ideas and speculations. I want to share my thoughts on a select few areas such as; whether or not Lucy is a Templar, whether she is actually dead (if so, can/will she be revived with the Shroud), and if so, why was Desmond controlled/forced to kill her. Also, I want to talk about Subject 16.
I don't think Lucy is a Templar. I think she is an assassin, and was posing as a Templar until her cover was blown when she and Desmond escaped from Abstergo. My reasoning is that if she was/is a Templar, then Abstergo would have planned for her to get close to Desmond, set up a fake escape for them (in order to make Desmond further believe that it was all real), and plan for Lucy and Desmond to beat the **** out of all of those Templar security guards (including in the parking lot of Abstergo and in their secret hiding spot, after Warren Vidic and his group find them). I just don't find that to be a possibilty, unless they're just really good actors, in which case I think they should all win Oscars.

I personally think that Lucy is dead, unless, as I believe someone mentioned before, she somehow was able to find the Shroud and actually had it with her when she was stabbed, which in return would mean that she could be revived (FYI: I think that is highly unlikey). Even if she does die, I think there is a possibilty that Desmond could locate the Shroud and revive her (again, if she hasn't already obtained it). This brings up the question of whether or not Desmond would even choose to revive her, possible finding out the that she was/is a Templar (again, I think this is unlikely). But why did Juno force Desmond to stab her, and mentioning that she was the dark cross? Also, if Subject 16 was referring to Lucy, why did he say that she was not who Desmond though she was? To answer both of these questions, I will say that I think Lucy is not the "Eve" that Desmond needs to "find", according to what Subject 16 says in the conversation between he and Desmond:


Desmond: Subject 16?
Subject 16: Yes, yes, Subject 17.
Desmond: Youíre dead. I saw your blood.
Subject 16: No time. It is far later than you know. Too late to save them.
Desmond: Who?
Subject 16: She is not who you think she is. Everything you hope to become, everything you hold dear, itís already gone.
Desmond: Explain. Please.
Subject 16: Eden. She... in Eden. Find Eve. The Key. Her DNA.
Desmond: Tell me!
Subject 16: I cannot... The sun... Your son... Too weak... Must replenish energy...
Desmond: Donít go.
Subject 16: I am with you 'til the end. Find me in the darkness.


I think the risk of Desmond falling in love with Lucy would ruin everything, which I think is why Juno forced him to kill her. When Sunject 16 says "She is not who you think she is. Everything you hope to become, everything you hold dear, itís already gone.", he is not only referring to Lucy not being the "Eve", but he is also emplying that Lucy is everything that Desmond "holds dear" and by saying "it's already gone", he is referring to when Lucy eventually gets stabbed.

With that said, it means that Subject 16 can somehow see into the future, not only because my theory (relating Lucy to what Desmond "holds dear"), but also because he says "it's already gone", whether or not that is related to Lucy or not is irrelevant because whatever Subject 16 is referring to is in the future. OR, perhaps, as I believe someone mentioned before, Desmond is actually being observed by someone in the future, who is trying to obtain information through Desmond (as Desmond did with Altair and Ezio). I think this is unlikely, but still a possibilty. Either way, I think we can all agree that Subject 16 somehow is able to predict something in Desmond's future. What that something is, or how Subject 16 is able to know remains to be seen.

Also, when Subject 16 says "Your son... Too weak..." I think it is hard not to argue that Desmond will eventually have a son. Perhaps when Subject 16 says "Too weak", he is possibly saying that Desmond's son will not be able to succeed in whatever task he is assigned. I don't know exactly, maybe Desmond is destined to have a daughter who can save the world, but that is a big speculation and highly unlikely.

Finally, I don't know whether or not Subject 16 is dead or not, or if he is secretly involved with Desmond and gang when they are at the Villa. Possibly he is the one driving the white van, or maybe he is one of the people we see in the emails.

I know it is a lot, but I would love to read your replies to my thoughts and ideas, whether they be good or bad. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LightRey
12-06-2010, 03:49 AM
Nice post. Very well constructed and very detailed.
On the note of 16 being able to see the future; I think that he was able to see the future through a memory of an ancestor of his (possibly Ezio) who used the apple. It seems to me TWCB did the same thing to predict the future (Ezio the prophet and Desmond etc.).

Edit: I can now confirm something that has been previously stated about the situation as seen before the credits and after. After the credits not only is the pool of blood gone (which could just be a result of game mechanics), but I can also confirm that while before the credits the apple has just rolled into Lucy's lap, after the credits her hand is resting on it.

ses898
12-06-2010, 05:55 AM
Go to the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=do-TU7mjLZQ

Pause at exactly 12:11, it looks like Lucy has the PoE (apple) in her right hand. Or she could be holding something else entirely. <span class="ev_code_BLACK">I think</span> the apple rolled out of Desmond's hand into Lucy's and healed her. Or just awakened her, showed her she wasn't really stabbed or you know kind of like how Altair in AC1. IDK.

I bought an entire bottle of Tylenol before this game and to be honest, it didn't help. Oh my dear head.

LightRey
12-06-2010, 05:59 AM
Actually, if you look closely, you can see that the apple does not roll into Lucy's hands, but you can see that after the credits, her hand is resting on the apple.

d-ShLuM
12-06-2010, 02:27 PM
Wow I didn't even notice that image at the very end of the credits. The fact that Lucy's hand is on top of the apple makes such a big difference in my theory. I was trying to make the argument that Lucy was not a Templar and that she would die after being stabbed by Desmond, but now I don't know what to think.

I think it is a lot easier to side with the idea that Lucy is indeed a Templar because there are a lot of examples to back it up. However, I still can't get over the thought that Abstergo was behind everything (getting Lucy to get close to Desmond, making up a fake escape for them, and ultimately having Lucy work undercover for them throughout AC2 & AC: Brotherhood), it just doesn't seem even remotely possible.

Another far-fetched idea is that Lucy has been an assassin all of her life. She then posed as a Templar to get information about the Temples, Apples of Eden, etc. However, instead of helping out the Assassins, Lucy decided to take everything for herself and had everyone fooled except for Subject 16, Minerva, and Juno. Who knows, maybe at the beginning of the next AC game, there will be a fight between Desmond and Lucy over control of the Apple of Eden (just like when AltaÔr and Al Mualim fought at the end of AC1).

Also, on a side note, I think the voices in the dialogue belong to two men who are working for the assassins, and the third voice obviously belongs to Desmond. I think this has to be dialogue in one of the future games, it has to be, why else would they have put it in the credits? Maybe this is a sign that Desmond will ultimately suffer the same fate a Subject 16..

Voice 1 - "Sh*t! He's gone into shock."
Voice 2 - " Put him back in the machine. It's the only way to fix this."
Voice 1 - "But the Animus did this to him!"
Voice 2 - "Am I the expert or not? Do it!"
Desmond - "No."

What do you guys think?

LightRey
12-06-2010, 02:33 PM
Well, there's this other thing that's bothering me. Desmond being unconscious is caused by the animus, right? So what exactly happened after he collapsed? When you hear those guys talking during the credits he appears to be near the animus, since they want to put him back in. It's like there's a hole that needs to be filled.

d-ShLuM
12-06-2010, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
Well, there's this other thing that's bothering me. Desmond being unconscious is caused by the animus, right? So what exactly happened after he collapsed? When you hear those guys talking during the credits he appears to be near the animus, since they want to put him back in. It's like there's a hole that needs to be filled.

I don't think so. Desmond wasn't in the Animus when he collapsed, remember? He, Lucy, Shawn, and Rebekah left the Villa and found a way inside of the Colosseum. I think the fact that he collapsed was simply due to the power of the Apple, and if you notice in the image after the credits, Shaun and Rebekah are still frozen, which means the Apple's power is still in effect.

I edited my previous post and slipped in my two cents about the voices in the dialogue during the credits, I'll repost that section back into this post. Tell me what you think.

I think the voices in the dialogue belong to two men who are working for the assassins, and the third voice obviously belongs to Desmond. I think this has to be dialogue in one of the future games, it has to be, why else would they have put it in the credits? Maybe this is a sign that Desmond will ultimately suffer the same fate a Subject 16..

Voice 1 - "Sh*t! He's gone into shock."
Voice 2 - " Put him back in the machine. It's the only way to fix this."
Voice 1 - "But the Animus did this to him!"
Voice 2 - "Am I the expert or not? Do it!"
Desmond - "No."

rocketxsurgeon
12-06-2010, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
Well, there's this other thing that's bothering me. Desmond being unconscious is caused by the animus, right? So what exactly happened after he collapsed? When you hear those guys talking during the credits he appears to be near the animus, since they want to put him back in. It's like there's a hole that needs to be filled.

I want to know why he's been put back in. Surely they would have no further need of Desmond, they have the apple.

Unless something else is needed, or it was the only way to save Desmond.

ninja_7_7
12-06-2010, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
Well, there's this other thing that's bothering me. Desmond being unconscious is caused by the animus, right? So what exactly happened after he collapsed? When you hear those guys talking during the credits he appears to be near the animus, since they want to put him back in. It's like there's a hole that needs to be filled.
More reason for his son. Desmond's son looked back upon Desmond's memories. After seeing this he went into shock.

LightRey
12-06-2010, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
Well, there's this other thing that's bothering me. Desmond being unconscious is caused by the animus, right? So what exactly happened after he collapsed? When you hear those guys talking during the credits he appears to be near the animus, since they want to put him back in. It's like there's a hole that needs to be filled.
Didn't someone mention it'd been released by Ubisoft that Desmond collapsing was caused by the bleeding effect?

d-ShLuM
12-06-2010, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by ninja_7_7:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
Well, there's this other thing that's bothering me. Desmond being unconscious is caused by the animus, right? So what exactly happened after he collapsed? When you hear those guys talking during the credits he appears to be near the animus, since they want to put him back in. It's like there's a hole that needs to be filled.
More reason for his son. Desmond's son looked back upon Desmond's memories. After seeing this he went into shock. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that is a very plausible explanation. However, the voice that says, "No." in the dialogue during the credits is most definitely the same voice as Desmonds. So either Ubisoft is lazy and used Desmond's voice for the same voice as his son (unlikely), or the dialogue is something that is used in a later game (which is my theory).

LightRey
12-06-2010, 03:04 PM
ugh, not that theory again. It's too far-fetched. We're not in the Matrix and this is not Inception.

d-ShLuM
12-06-2010, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
ugh, not that theory again. It's too far-fetched. We're not in the Matrix and this is not Inception.

What theory is too far fetched? That the dialogue is used in a later game or that Desmond's son was reliving his father's memories?

LightRey
12-06-2010, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by d-ShLuM:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
ugh, not that theory again. It's too far-fetched. We're not in the Matrix and this is not Inception.

What theory is too far fetched? That the dialogue is used in a later game or that Desmond's son was reliving his father's memories? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Desmond's son reliving his father's memories.

d-ShLuM
12-06-2010, 03:31 PM
Ok, glad we are on the same page, lol. I would have considered it an option if the voice in the dialogue was different from Desmond's voice..

LightRey
12-06-2010, 03:34 PM
Yeah, but even then it still wouldn't have been at the top of my list.

kriegerdesgottes
12-06-2010, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by flyingeaglemile:
Altair survived being stabbed in the chest, Ezio survived it twice. I`m sure Lucy could of survived. good point. I think there is something too that too. how do these people keep getting stabbed without dieing?

X10J
12-06-2010, 11:26 PM
Altair wasn't stabbed, it was a lie.

LightRey
12-06-2010, 11:52 PM
yeah, al mualim used the PoE to make it look to him he was stabbed.

zGift
12-07-2010, 12:00 AM
On the "Lucy is a Templar" thing. Anyone notice those emails from Shaun to everyone concerning other Assassin's in other cities? He sends out like 2 or 3 updates on like 5ish cities.

Which each update more of them go dark, and eventually Denver disappears and is assumed to have went code red (didn't have time to inform HQ they went dark) or they were captured by the Templars.

If Lucy was a Templar a list of cities with a Assassins HQ would be a map.

Food for thought.

I have a bit to say on the 16 thing, but am I little iffy to post it. What if I nail it head on and the developers see it and change the story like "**** it, they figured it out." D:

LightRey
12-07-2010, 12:18 AM
lol, just go for it. I think they'd find it interesting.

LundyWRF
12-07-2010, 03:54 PM
I don't think the scene at the end of the credits should realy count. If you think about it because if the 2 mysterious guys during the credits put Desimond in the animus then why would he still be on the ground beside Lucy?

I just think that it was just a flash of how the scene ended (due to cutscenes being renderd in-game), before it cut to a loading screen.
It would also explain why there was no blood on the ground, because blood doesn't (For lack of better word) Land in-game.

Just to throw this in there, I was starting to think Lucy was a Templar around sequience(sp?) 5, it was only round then she started to seem a little off and I was expecting her to double cross us since then so the ending didn't realy come as too much of a shock to me. Lets just say I wont be to surprised if she ends up a Templar in AC3(If she lives of corse)

zGift
12-07-2010, 05:20 PM
The voices in the end credits were probably just to cover why you keep playing after the game ends.

On top of that, who said the ending and credits dialogue happened within seconds of each other.

If we're Desmond and he's blacked out/passed out, naturally we can't see.

He could've came to minutes later after help had been called/arrived and possibly still having after effects from killing Lucy (emotional shock) plus being controlled by the apple.

Reason he says no at the end felt to me "The animus did this to him (it's the bleeding effect)", "No(, it didn't. I was taken control of by a ancient, yet advanced piece of technology, by a long dead ancestor that was worshipped as a God)."

But given the fact he was in 'shock' at the time, might've been all he was able to get out.

d-ShLuM
12-07-2010, 06:35 PM
LundyWRF:

I really thought that Lucy's hand was on top of the Apple and that it was a significant twist to the end of the game. But now that I go back and look at it again, it's too hard to tell if her hand is actually on top of it. Maybe you're right, it's probably just the last part of the cutscene they forgot to take out. It's pretty aggravating because it's not definitive, and it totally threw me off. They need to fix that (again, if it's not there for a reason). Lol

zGift:

That's an interesting theory, I never thought of it like that. But who exactly is supposed to come help them? How would they know how to get there? What are your thoughts on Lucy? Do you think she is dead, or a Templar?

Redfeather1975
12-07-2010, 06:40 PM
I wonder if when Desmond leaves the Animus to go find the apple in real life, whether it is really happening.

People have noticed that any relics found around the villa aren't appearing on the shelf during that scene.
The red footprints outside the villa are missing too during that part.
Plus it is awfully convenient that the power goes out so that Desmond can't check the emails anymore.

hmmmmm. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

LightRey
12-08-2010, 04:28 AM
Originally posted by Redfeather1975:
I wonder if when Desmond leaves the Animus to go find the apple in real life, whether it is really happening.

People have noticed that any relics found around the villa aren't appearing on the shelf during that scene.
The red footprints outside the villa are missing too during that part.
Plus it is awfully convenient that the power goes out so that Desmond can't check the emails anymore.

hmmmmm. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
Yeah, I've been thinking about that too. If this is the case than the "she" 16 warnes about could actually very well be Juno.
But this is all speculation based on speculation of course.

Also, I made screenshots of a hi def video right before and after the credits and though you can't clearly see Lucy's hand resting on the apple in the last one, it does really look like it does and even if it didn't it would still mean her hand had been moved, since before the apple was on the other side of her hand (or rather, her hand was on the other side of the apple).

zGift
12-08-2010, 02:51 PM
d-ShLuM

Nothing is true. I prefer to string facts together and look for similarities, patterns leading to such theories. I'm not one to say which is right, they both have possibilities.

As I mentioned, who knows the time frame from the stabbing to the credits? Shaun or Rebecca could've phoned for help once released. Two of your friends/partners are out cold, one is possibly dead with a stab wound... what would you do? They might not be around Desmond at the end due to fear the bleeding effect caused it all and worried he'd try to hurt them too. Maybe they were getting debriefed/questioned/interrogated/etc. *shrug*

But can't she be both dead and a templar? =p

As I pointed on the previous page (9) and in another thread, there's considerable data that she might possibly be a Templar.


Seeing how hard Desmond is working and trying to help by the end of AC:B compared to AC1, if the entire thing was a ruse, a means to an end to get the information they need, it was working quite well.

Templars also have access to some POEs, Ja? So naturally, they might've used these to keep an eye on Lucy, influence her, etc.

She might've just broken D out just thinking killing him was a waste and he could've gotten more information for them. It's not like he'd have anyone else to turn to, thus could be influenced by those who stood there with open arms and would develop that silent obligation to "save/help his friends".

LightRey
12-09-2010, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by zGift:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">d-ShLuM

Nothing is true. I prefer to string facts together and look for similarities, patterns leading to such theories. I'm not one to say which is right, they both have possibilities.

As I mentioned, who knows the time frame from the stabbing to the credits? Shaun or Rebecca could've phoned for help once released. Two of your friends/partners are out cold, one is possibly dead with a stab wound... what would you do? They might not be around Desmond at the end due to fear the bleeding effect caused it all and worried he'd try to hurt them too. Maybe they were getting debriefed/questioned/interrogated/etc. *shrug*

But can't she be both dead and a templar? =p

As I pointed on the previous page (9) and in another thread, there's considerable data that she might possibly be a Templar.


Seeing how hard Desmond is working and trying to help by the end of AC:B compared to AC1, if the entire thing was a ruse, a means to an end to get the information they need, it was working quite well.

Templars also have access to some POEs, Ja? So naturally, they might've used these to keep an eye on Lucy, influence her, etc.

She might've just broken D out just thinking killing him was a waste and he could've gotten more information for them. It's not like he'd have anyone else to turn to, thus could be influenced by those who stood there with open arms and would develop that silent obligation to "save/help his friends". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
could you summarize that "considerable data" please? because i've been following this thread from the beginning and I don't remember that many things that actually hold up that support that theory.
Also, I'm not sure how much this matters, but right after the credits, when you can see Desmond and Lucy again lying on the ground, Shaun and Rebecca are still clearly frozen by the apple.

zGift
12-09-2010, 10:29 AM
there's considerable data that she might possibly be a Templar.

I believe several hints have been pointed out in here before. I'm not saying "There is overwhelming evidence she is, in fact, a templar. Lemme rephrase it, just for you.

There's a ton of suggestive evidence that she might be a templar, however circumstantial.

Mutley_Rulz
12-09-2010, 11:49 AM
To all those wondering about Abstergo having their own POEs and if 16 and Desmond are related, there is a cutscene during AC1 where Vidic talks about how Abstergo engineered most inventions of the century, and that they were 'gifts from those who came before'.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but only Desmond and co. saw inside the Vault during that animus session, and none of them could go back in time to tell the Templars about it.
Therefore, my theory is that during 16's Italian ancestor obsession, he came across the very same memory, and the knowledge that he wasn't the one to change the world and that one of his family was going to be likely imprisoned may have pushed him over the edge and into his insane picture drawing state. Again, just a theory - though the cutscene with Vidic mentioning TOCB is there.

mantledarcanum
12-09-2010, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by LordAcoustico:
I'm sure the guys (or girls)at Ubisoft are just laughing at us while reading these posts :P

I was thinking the same thing! Comfy, Ubi? Enjoying your eggnog, are we?


Originally posted by AssassinFirenze:
They must have operated her cuz "SPOILERS" i think she is pregnant from Desmond.

In the opening of ACB, Desmond lets us know that his journey has only been for 2 weeks since the start. Now, correct me if I'm wrong.. but it generally takes around a month to 6 weeks for humans to realize that they or someone else is pregnant.

Now, I'm posting these as things that have come up in my head.. they may not seem like they correlate, but.. eh, here they are:

Why did Juno appear instead of Minerva? Throughout history, Juno has always been known as a jealous matriarch... Sabotage?

What is Minerva's true intention? She is the patron of all wisdom.. so if she knew the future then and the future now.. how come she never saw the downfall of OTCB? ..Or did she?

Lucy being an assassin vs templar.. She very well could be double-crossing both sides.. or there's more at stake for working with Abstergo. Perhaps she went in on an infiltration mission in the beginning and was threatened or blackmailed by Abstergo pretty viciously. She could be Eve, she may not be. It would make sense for Abstergo to send her in as a mole.. since 16 didn't trust them and it all ended so badly, why not get 17 to trust someone enough into giving up everything, then be killed in the end?

As far as the Eden thing goes.. perhaps they are sent back to where the Garden of Eden is rumored to be located.. close to Syria/where Altair is from?

Spirited448
12-09-2010, 05:39 PM
Well Ubisoft is good for plot twists, perhaps it was only intended for Lucy to appear "dead"
I do not want to speculate. One thing for sure, i hope if she is a templar it's not a repeat of having to track down and retrieve the apple that would be too much repetition. Also i would prefer myself to not analize the game too much i would just rather be surprised by what Ubi comes up with

ubercool777
12-10-2010, 07:08 AM
NobleBlade
Time was frozen you idiot. They couldn't see Desmonddoing that.

Nuadin
12-10-2010, 12:49 PM
I hope they do brink her back... I was already disappointed in how short the game was and its storyline and once I saw Lucy die it just put a bad taste in my mouth for the game in general.

When the game indicated it wanted me to kill lucy, I walked away. Grabbed a bite to eat and came back hoping I was either A.) imagining it or B.) Giving Desmond the time to fight back would be satifisfactory. But no. So then I decided to try walking backwards, and as we all know Desmond moved forward. So then I thought... Maybe I should play this out maybe I will get a chance to stop Desmond at the last minute.

*shnnk* Wtf? O_o....

*credits* WTF?!

*angry face*


That was pretty much my reaction O_o.... Still upset about it. Lucy is my favorite characters (yes, even over Desmond) so if she dies. Well... I seem to have bad luck with my favorites always dieing so sorry guys http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

itsamea-mario
12-10-2010, 01:07 PM
though lucy may be a traitor, the evidence doesn't seem very convincing.
red footsteps, well if desmond could see them, why could he not see any others, is that the only path lucy has ever walked where desmond has not been watching her?
also the motive, if she was a traitor, then why the hell did she break him out of abstergo, because it would not have been possible without her. its not like desmond has any particular information, merely genetic memories, that all could have been extracted at abstergo.

perhaps TWCB werent as smart and insightful as they thought, and they made a mistake, or maybe there not on the assassins side, cos why would they be?

nponline
12-10-2010, 01:38 PM
ever see 16's video in AC2? the place Adam and Eve are at is actually Machu Pichu. If u look it up it actually looks alot like it does in the video. This could be where a temple could be and a possible setting for a future AC title

nponline
12-10-2010, 01:42 PM
Plus if u check out that triangle thing that desmond finds in the villa auditore, it's actually the godhead of Juno, minerva and neptune. The possibility of seeing neptune in the next game makes it all the more ominous

LightRey
12-10-2010, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by nponline:
ever see 16's video in AC2? the place Adam and Eve are at is actually Machu Pichu. If u look it up it actually looks alot like it does in the video. This could be where a temple could be and a possible setting for a future AC title
Please don't double post. It's against the rules. Also, it's not Machu Picchu, it's Mt. Kilimanjaro.
pics for comparison:
Machu Picchu:
http://www.thermorocks.com/wp-...achu_picchu-nice.jpg (http://www.thermorocks.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/machu_picchu-nice.jpg)
Kilimanjaro:
http://junglephotos.com/africa...ains/kilimanjaro.jpg (http://junglephotos.com/africa/afscenery/mountains/kilimanjaro.jpg)
I don't think I need to show a pic from The Truth.

itsamea-mario
12-10-2010, 02:22 PM
another point i forgot to say, people saying that desmond needs to find eves descendant, well surely he IS eves descendant, aswell as adams, plus that idea makes for a poor story, atleast for this series.

LightRey
12-10-2010, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by itsamea-mario:
another point i forgot to say, people saying that desmond needs to find eves descendant, well surely he IS eves descendant, aswell as adams, plus that idea makes for a poor story, atleast for this series.
Actually, I believe that Adam got a new wife after Eve died. So he had kids with another woman. (though I could be wrong, could someone confirm this?)

MagicoDc
12-10-2010, 02:42 PM
Guys, (or girls), I understand what Juno means in sixth sense!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia

I mean, associating things with a colour, isn't it basically what the Eagle Vision does?

Now to figure out why it needs to be better... maybe he needs associate voices with colours? or something?

LightRey
12-10-2010, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by MagicoDc:
Guys, (or girls), I understand what Juno means in sixth sense!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia

I mean, associating things with a colour, isn't it basically what the Eagle Vision does?

Now to figure out why it needs to be better... maybe he needs associate voices with colours? or something?
Well, I don't think that's what the 6th sense is, but it might very well be related.
I also have a theory myself. That the 6th sense is actually like being able to look into the minds of others, or rather, to make more sense, a connection to the hive mind of humanity, like a biological internet. What do you guys think?

itsamea-mario
12-10-2010, 02:59 PM
I thought that this 6th sense thing was supposed to be knowledge or something like that, i mean synesthesia isn't incredibly uncommon.

though it would be more like 22nd sense since humans actually have about 18-21 senses, not 5.

LightRey
12-10-2010, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by itsamea-mario:
I thought that this 6th sense thing was supposed to be knowledge or something like that, i mean synesthesia isn't incredibly uncommon.

though it would be more like 22nd sense since humans actually have about 18-21 senses, not 5.
That simply depends on how you define "senses", but yeah you're kinda correct.
On the whole "Knowledge" thing, it's kinda vague, that's why we're thinking about what it could mean.

itsamea-mario
12-10-2010, 03:06 PM
well i assumed, it basically meant knowing just about everything.
or more like knowledge of time, like the ability to know past events and sense future ones.

LightRey
12-10-2010, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by itsamea-mario:
well i assumed, it basically meant knowing just about everything.
or more like knowledge of time, like the ability to know past events and sense future ones.
If that were true TWCB would've seen the disaster coming. More likely it's something (relatively) more down-to-earth than that.

itsamea-mario
12-10-2010, 03:15 PM
minerva did say that they should have seen it, but they where distracted by the human rebellion, how else do they know about present events.

and i think its funny how you say down to earth, when we're talking about aliens.

SAVMATIC
12-10-2010, 03:18 PM
eagle vision is psychic intuition(aka knowledge)

the colors of eagle vision are simply how the developers chose to represent this tricky concept in a video game

LightRey
12-10-2010, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by SAVMATIC:
eagle vision is psychic intuition(aka knowledge)

the colors of eagle vision are simply how the developers chose to represent this tricky concept in a video game
That doesn't have to be true. Juno talks about being able to "see the blue shimmer".

SAVMATIC
12-10-2010, 03:38 PM
well correction that is not the SOLE purpose of the colors but its not what it seems to most people on the surface. What would otherwise be a regular npc glows gold to show Ezio who his target it is...this is Ezio receiving psychic intuition as to who his true target is...this is how they have incorporated it into the game and story but the key thing to understand is the intuition/knowledge. My only theory of explaining the colors in real terms is that it is possibly the viewing of another dimension(or many at once)in which the intuition has been color coded. For people not getting it just look up psychic intuition and astral travel/knowledge

LightRey
12-10-2010, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by SAVMATIC:
well correction that is not the SOLE purpose of the colors but its not what it seems to most people on the surface. What would otherwise be a regular npc glows gold to show Ezio who his target it is...this is Ezio receiving psychic intuition as to who his true target is...this is how they have incorporated it into the game and story but the key thing to understand is the intuition/knowledge. My only theory of explaining the colors in real terms is that it is possibly the viewing of another dimension(or many at once)in which the intuition has been color coded. For people not getting it just look up psychic intuition and astral travel/knowledge
I still don't think so. Everything that's been explained in the game up till now has always been explained scientifically, it wouldn't make sense to put something like that in the game if it didn't have any scientific basis.

krazykilla105
12-10-2010, 03:58 PM
Maybe she'll live. In 2012, I'm sure a stab wound could be mended with a few months in the hospital, maybe she will be in the hospital the whole game and you visit her sometimes. Unless Juno really wants her dead, then I'd say shes done for.

And when Subject 16 says the sun... your son. Anything to do with Apollo?

LightRey
12-10-2010, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by krazykilla105:
Maybe she'll live. In 2012, I'm sure a stab wound could be mended with a few months in the hospital, maybe she will be in the hospital the whole game and you visit her sometimes. Unless Juno really wants her dead, then I'd say shes done for.
I dunno. I think she got stabbed in the liver. That's not easy to come back from.

SAVMATIC
12-10-2010, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SAVMATIC:
well correction that is not the SOLE purpose of the colors but its not what it seems to most people on the surface. What would otherwise be a regular npc glows gold to show Ezio who his target it is...this is Ezio receiving psychic intuition as to who his true target is...this is how they have incorporated it into the game and story but the key thing to understand is the intuition/knowledge. My only theory of explaining the colors in real terms is that it is possibly the viewing of another dimension(or many at once)in which the intuition has been color coded. For people not getting it just look up psychic intuition and astral travel/knowledge
I still don't think so. Everything that's been explained in the game up till now has always been explained scientifically, it wouldn't make sense to put something like that in the game if it didn't have any scientific basis. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Scientific basis? Not everything about the mind is understood by science, it would be naive to rule something out because mainstream science hasnt answered it.(especially given the controversial nature of MANY thing in AC) This has officially been referred to as the "6th sense"..."knowledge"...this is well known in real life, look it up, its not like im making **** up. The 6th sense is strongly associated with ancient culture so it ties in with the story. When Ezio touches the apple when he is with Leonardo he recieves a psychic vision or intuition about Cesare. This is all clear and established official story, not speculation. Apparently the peices of eden are even tied into this. They can relay psychic information to people and even control/disrupt their thinking psychically. This stuff is all over the game. In ACB it actually goes as far as letting you access riffs that seem as though they are different dimensions. Subject 16 has actually imprinted his consciousness into the animus. If you dont think this stuff is part of the game im afraid your mistaken

SAVMATIC
12-10-2010, 04:11 PM
so everyone else in every AC game that ever got stabbed by the hidden blade died but Lucy is the one that just goes to the hospital and suffers a minor stab wound. right.

LightRey
12-10-2010, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by SAVMATIC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SAVMATIC:
well correction that is not the SOLE purpose of the colors but its not what it seems to most people on the surface. What would otherwise be a regular npc glows gold to show Ezio who his target it is...this is Ezio receiving psychic intuition as to who his true target is...this is how they have incorporated it into the game and story but the key thing to understand is the intuition/knowledge. My only theory of explaining the colors in real terms is that it is possibly the viewing of another dimension(or many at once)in which the intuition has been color coded. For people not getting it just look up psychic intuition and astral travel/knowledge
I still don't think so. Everything that's been explained in the game up till now has always been explained scientifically, it wouldn't make sense to put something like that in the game if it didn't have any scientific basis. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Scientific basis? Not everything about the mind is understood by science, it would be naive to rule something out because mainstream science hasnt answered it.(especially given the controversial nature of MANY thing in AC) This has officially been referred to as the "6th sense"..."knowledge"...this is well known in real life, look it up, its not like im making **** up. The 6th sense is strongly associated with ancient culture so it ties in with the story. When Ezio touches the apple when he is with Leonardo he recieves a psychic vision or intuition about Cesare. This is all clear and established official story, not speculation. Apparently the peices of eden are even tied into this. They can relay psychic information to people and even control/disrupt their thinking psychically. This stuff is all over the game. In ACB it actually goes as far as letting you access riffs that seem as though they are different dimensions. Subject 16 has actually imprinted his consciousness into the animus. If you dont think this stuff is part of the game im afraid your mistaken </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
First of all, calm down.
Second, I'm not saying that those things aren't part of the game. What I'm trying to say is that everything that has been explained so far has been explained scientifically. I don't think Ubi would deviate from that. Also, There's no reason to assume the apple gave Ezio a "psychic" vision. It might have affected his psyche, as the apple seems to do all the time, and shown Ezio something, but I'm pretty sure it would be done in some way that does have a scientific basis in the same sense that a warp drive has a scientific basis.
Edit: dammit! now I lost the game.

SAVMATIC
12-10-2010, 04:42 PM
im pretty calm.
exactly, everything has been scientifically explained EXCEPT eagle vision....
also, it was in fact a psychic vision. this was stated in the game guide.
How are you saying it affected his "psyche" and showed him something...but it wasnt psychic. You seem to have a poor understanding of the psychic mind because you were actually on target earlier in the thread saying "I also have a theory myself. That the 6th sense is actually like being able to look into the minds of others, or rather, to make more sense, a connection to the hive mind of humanity, like a biological internet." which is basically what im explaining but you seem to be uncomfortable with the idea now that the word "psychic" is involved but that is the reality of it

LightRey
12-10-2010, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by SAVMATIC:
im pretty calm.
exactly, everything has been scientifically explained EXCEPT eagle vision....
also, it was in fact a psychic vision. this was stated in the game guide.
How are you saying it affected his "psyche" and showed him something...but it wasnt psychic. You seem to have a poor understanding of the psychic mind because you were actually on target earlier in the thread saying "I also have a theory myself. That the 6th sense is actually like being able to look into the minds of others, or rather, to make more sense, a connection to the hive mind of humanity, like a biological internet." which is basically what im explaining but you seem to be uncomfortable with the idea now that the word "psychic" is involved but that is the reality of it
There are way more things in AC that haven't been explained.
Also, I'm pretty sure the word "psychic" usually refers to the supernatural (a word which, btw, is a contradictio in terminis). If you were referring to the workings of the human psyche then I'll take back what I've said about doubting you.

Redfeather1975
12-10-2010, 05:06 PM
Didn't the AC3 survery talk about a possible Eagle Vision that let's you know when someone is lying.
Or am I remembering wrong.

castillo123
12-10-2010, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by Jaiszon:
Lucy was really a Templar double Agent. Right before Desmondio stabs her, Juno says "There is a large dark cross present and it must be removed"

Not only that but if you solved the puzzles then subject 16 tells u (im paraphrasing) she is not what she seems
so from that i gues she is a templar

Kaena2012
12-10-2010, 08:20 PM
Well again if Lucy is Templar there can be many reasons why she got Desmond out. Get hold of the apple, find pieces of Eden, hidouts of other Assasins, etc.
Myself i am not 100% convinced if she is templar or not, perhaps she could be playing both sides which can be doubtful but would be a major twist
Oh and the whole "She is not what she seems" can mean something entirely different not direct proof of her being a Templar

Redfeather1975
12-10-2010, 09:55 PM
Didn't someone mention that if Desmond is in an Animus replaying something that already happened to him before being recaptured by Abstergo, perhaps Lucy was recaptured by Abstergo too, and they are doing the same to her?

I think that would be cool.
They are both being spied upon, to see what they did while they had escaped. The two animus sessions would be used to corroborate one another to prove the accounts were true. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

It would be very sneaky and fitting of a mastermind baddie.

TheSpectator
12-10-2010, 10:02 PM
I don't think the templars would care that much about what they did while they were gone. I think Vidic would just go "Holy poop an apple" and then slit both of their throats.
Just saying.

Redfeather1975
12-10-2010, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by TheSpectator:
I don't think the templars would care that much about what they did while they were gone. I think Vidic would just go "Holy poop an apple" and then slit both of their throats.
Just saying.

I don't know if you realize that I am talking as though Abstergo won't know where the apple is until they recapture Desmond and Lucy and interrogate them through the animus.

Then Abstergo would have to be sure the sessions were accurate in their details before confidently acting on the information.

I think Vidic is too sly. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
Of course this is all assuming the Animus can be used as an interrogation device on people's own memories.

RzaRecta357
12-10-2010, 10:12 PM
I bet 16 meant Minerva or more than likely Juno.

Jeffpaladin
12-11-2010, 01:49 AM
You know, I don't think Lucy's dead.
If you listen to the music you might find out that the music played is called VR room. (Brotherhood Soundtracks?) Doesn't that stand for Virtual Reality? That would suggest that Desmond didn't actually kill her but just thinks he killed her.

Wouldn't that make sense?

LightRey
12-11-2010, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by Castillo123:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jaiszon:
Lucy was really a Templar double Agent. Right before Desmondio stabs her, Juno says "There is a large dark cross present and it must be removed"

Not only that but if you solved the puzzles then subject 16 tells u (im paraphrasing) she is not what she seems
so from that i gues she is a templar </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Please don't bring up such old posts. Especially when they're wrong. I've already said before that that's not at all what Juno said. Juno said: "The cross darkens the horizon". No other sentence involving the word "cross" is ever said by Juno.
Also, what 16 said could've been about any woman in the game or even a woman Desmond still has to meet.

ShAd0wC4t
12-11-2010, 12:37 PM
This is what I think. Possibilities... In the ending you seem to hear subject 16 speaking, so he's alive? He says he's the expert after all, probably from experience in the animus I would assume. He must have survived somehow and escaped Abstergo if this is true, then joined up with the assassins. He seemed to have been too enlightened to want to have joined Abstergo.
Wow but I'm missing out on the part mentioned after the credits about "who is seen", and Lucy. How could I have missed that? >.<

The platform might have absorbed Lucy's blood for the sacrifice which explains why it's not there at the end of the credits. "The cross at the horizon" could be Shaun. Not sure though since he received emails from the assassin's headquarters.. supposedly. Speculation and theories! It could be any of the three.

The theory that Lucy was pregnant with Desmond's baby is just plain idiotic. They weren't that close to each other to have managed to somehow find time to have a roll in the hay with eachother (so to speak) while trying to escape abstergo. All they had done was travel, escape, travel some more, just to have enough time to solve the problems put by abstergo. Enough of that.

The red footprints I couldn't figure out. I think either the prints were made by abstergo, and maybe they were being spied on, or it's blood (remember at the end of AC1?). I thought about it maybe being Shaun, or Lucy, but then the footsteps should have been all over the place. (Holy crap! Why hasn't anyone mentioned that?)

Anywho that's just what I've gathered. I need to go back and replay the game I guess.

Also, stop arguing you sissies!!

Lucy may be dead, or alive. Yay! We shall see.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

LightRey
12-11-2010, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by ShAd0wC4t:
This is what I think. Possibilities... In the ending you seem to hear subject 16 speaking, so he's alive? He says he's the expert after all, probably from experience in the animus I would assume. He must have survived somehow and escaped Abstergo if this is true, then joined up with the assassins. He seemed to have been too enlightened to want to have joined Abstergo.
Wow but I'm missing out on the part mentioned after the credits about "who is seen", and Lucy. How could I have missed that? >.<

The platform might have absorbed Lucy's blood for the sacrifice which explains why it's not there at the end of the credits. "The cross at the horizon" could be Shaun. Not sure though since he received emails from the assassin's headquarters.. supposedly. Speculation and theories! It could be any of the three.

The theory that Lucy was pregnant with Desmond's baby is just plain idiotic. They weren't that close to each other to have managed to somehow find time to have a roll in the hay with eachother (so to speak) while trying to escape abstergo. All they had done was travel, escape, travel some more, just to have enough time to solve the problems put by abstergo. Enough of that.

The red footprints I couldn't figure out. I think either the prints were made by abstergo, and maybe they were being spied on, or it's blood (remember at the end of AC1?). I thought about it maybe being Shaun, or Lucy, but then the footsteps should have been all over the place. (Holy crap! Why hasn't anyone mentioned that?)

Anywho that's just what I've gathered. I need to go back and replay the game I guess.

Also, stop arguing you sissies!!

Lucy may be dead, or alive. Yay! We shall see.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif
That wasn't 16's voice.

ShAd0wC4t
12-11-2010, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
That wasn't 16's voice.

Oh? Sounded just like him! D: Oh well. That's one idea crossed out.

LightRey
12-11-2010, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by ShAd0wC4t:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
That wasn't 16's voice.

Oh? Sounded just like him! D: Oh well. That's one idea crossed out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, i just checked to be sure. So no, it's not 16's voice.

JayNike
12-13-2010, 09:26 AM
This ending was a bit of a shock to me. But I just can't believe that Lucy is really dead or that she stays dead...
She's just a way to important character in the game and her part in it is all but over.
I came up with 2 possibilities:
1) Desmond didn't kill / stab her, it was all just an ilusion created by the apple.
2) He did stab her but she will survive or be brought back to life by the shroud.
The whole project legacy facebook game was about this shroud that can heal people or bring them back to life.
If you add thing up, most logical thing would be, that in the next AC Desmond will try and find this shroud to bring Lucy back to
life. Ubisoft won't make such a big deal about this shroud without letting it play an important role in the story (at least that's what I think)

Some people believe that Juno ordered Desmond to stab Lucy because she's a templar. I admit, there are some possible clues that she is, but to me they are not very convincing. One of these clues could be the red footprints leading up to the well in Montereggione.
That's the well where the shroud could be hidden. But you don't know who's footprints they are. The colour red could mean that they're templar, but when you look at Lucy in eagle vision, she's always blue. So why would eagle vision make her footprints red and her body blue? It doesn't make sense to me. But the colour red could also mean it's just a clue, because 16's clues are also red, just as Ezio's clues (for example the numbers he left behind).

Now I'm gonna guess a bit. I think Lucy isn't a templar, but she isn't a true assassin either ...
Maybe there is a third party in the game next to the templars and assassins?
This party could have access to Abstergo files (an inside man?), and that could explain why Lucy still has access to inside information?
What if she discovered something about the assassins that make her turn away from the broterhood? Fact is that she's communicating with someone from the outside: William M. The M could very well stand for Miles. I think he's Desmonds father. He is / was an assassin too and maybe he discovered the same thing and he's now working together with Lucy to save to world from a real tragedy?
I refuse to believe the Lucy is evil http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.

What do we know about this William? Not much, just that he's very interested in the progress Desmond is making and that Lucy needs to keep him informed. He could also very well be the leader of the assassins ...

My last possible theory on Lucy is that she's being tracked by the templars somehow, without realizing it herself?
The templars know where she is and could possibly here everything that's been said in the hideout.

As for the whole 16 thing in which he said 'she is not what she looks like', I think this is about Juno. I don't trust that angry b**** http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Yeah I know this are all just guesses, but that's all we can do right now. These are just some ideas that look most realistic to me, but it could be something completely different in the world of AC nothing is what is seems right? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

One thing is sure: I can't wait till the next one ... I really hope Ubisoft won't make us wait till 2012.
And that lucy will be in the next game, along with desmond she's my favorite character.

LightRey
12-13-2010, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by JayNike:
This ending was a bit of a shock to me. But I just can't believe that Lucy is really dead or that she stays dead...
She's just a way to important character in the game and her part in it is all but over.
I came up with 2 possibilities:
1) Desmond didn't kill / stab her, it was all just an ilusion created by the apple.
2) He did stab her but she will survive or be brought back to life by the shroud.
The whole project legacy facebook game was about this shroud that can heal people or bring them back to life.
If you add thing up, most logical thing would be, that in the next AC Desmond will try and find this shroud to bring Lucy back to
life. Ubisoft won't make such a big deal about this shroud without letting it play an important role in the story (at least that's what I think)

Some people believe that Juno ordered Desmond to stab Lucy because she's a templar. I admit, there are some possible clues that she is, but to me they are not very convincing. One of these clues could be the red footprints leading up to the well in Montereggione.
That's the well where the shroud could be hidden. But you don't know who's footprints they are. The colour red could mean that they're templar, but when you look at Lucy in eagle vision, she's always blue. So why would eagle vision make her footprints red and her body blue? It doesn't make sense to me. But the colour red could also mean it's just a clue, because 16's clues are also red, just as Ezio's clues (for example the numbers he left behind).

Now I'm gonna guess a bit. I think Lucy isn't a templar, but she isn't a true assassin either ...
Maybe there is a third party in the game next to the templars and assassins?
This party could have access to Abstergo files (an inside man?), and that could explain why Lucy still has access to inside information?
What if she discovered something about the assassins that make her turn away from the broterhood? Fact is that she's communicating with someone from the outside: William M. The M could very well stand for Miles. I think he's Desmonds father. He is / was an assassin too and maybe he discovered the same thing and he's now working together with Lucy to save to world from a real tragedy?
I refuse to believe the Lucy is evil http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.

What do we know about this William? Not much, just that he's very interested in the progress Desmond is making and that Lucy needs to keep him informed. He could also very well be the leader of the assassins ...

My last possible theory on Lucy is that she's being tracked by the templars somehow, without realizing it herself?
The templars know where she is and could possibly here everything that's been said in the hideout.

As for the whole 16 thing in which he said 'she is not what she looks like', I think this is about Juno. I don't trust that angry b**** http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Yeah I know this are all just guesses, but that's all we can do right now. These are just some ideas that look most realistic to me, but it could be something completely different in the world of AC nothing is what is seems right? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

One thing is sure: I can't wait till the next one ... I really hope Ubisoft won't make us wait till 2012.
And that lucy will be in the next game, along with desmond she's my favorite character.
William M. is most definately an Assassin. He also communicates with Shaun about the other teams (it's in his inbox/deleted).
What I noticed the other day though was that in William M.'s email to Lucy, he signs the mail with William, but the email says that the mail comes from Dan M. while the mails to Shaun all say William M.

JayNike
12-13-2010, 10:13 AM
William M. is most definately an Assassin. He also communicates with Shaun about the other teams (it's in his inbox/deleted).
What I noticed the other day though was that in William M.'s email to Lucy, he signs the mail with William, but the email says that the mail comes from Dan M. while the mails to Shaun all say William M.[/QUOTE]

Hmm interesting http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.
So there is definetly something up with this William / Dan guy. What do you think about the possibility that the M stands for Miles?
I've just started to play brotherhood for the 2nd time, and now I'm really gonna pay attention to all (small) details. I've just gone through the first to games, because after this ending i really got sucked into the game and I really wanna try and figure things out http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.

LightRey
12-13-2010, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by JayNike:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
William M. is most definately an Assassin. He also communicates with Shaun about the other teams (it's in his inbox/deleted).
What I noticed the other day though was that in William M.'s email to Lucy, he signs the mail with William, but the email says that the mail comes from Dan M. while the mails to Shaun all say William M.

Hmm interesting http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.
So there is definetly something up with this William / Dan guy. What do you think about the possibility that the M stands for Miles?
I've just started to play brotherhood for the 2nd time, and now I'm really gonna pay attention to all (small) details. I've just gone through the first to games, because after this ending i really got sucked into the game and I really wanna try and figure things out http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmmmm... It is a possibility, but if he is Desmond's father why doesn't anybody tell Desmond? Besides, if he were then wouldn't Lucy have known Desmond's parents were ok in AC1?

JayNike
12-13-2010, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JayNike:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
William M. is most definately an Assassin. He also communicates with Shaun about the other teams (it's in his inbox/deleted).
What I noticed the other day though was that in William M.'s email to Lucy, he signs the mail with William, but the email says that the mail comes from Dan M. while the mails to Shaun all say William M.

Hmm interesting http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.
So there is definetly something up with this William / Dan guy. What do you think about the possibility that the M stands for Miles?
I've just started to play brotherhood for the 2nd time, and now I'm really gonna pay attention to all (small) details. I've just gone through the first to games, because after this ending i really got sucked into the game and I really wanna try and figure things out http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmmmm... It is a possibility, but if he is Desmond's father why doesn't anybody tell Desmond? Besides, if he were then wouldn't Lucy have known Desmond's parents were ok in AC1? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because something is up with Lucy ... She has some information she doesn't share with Desmond or the others. That's why I think it's she is part of an unknown 3rd organisation (with this William / Dan M.) or that she has plans of her own. This doesn't mean she has evil plan or something, but maybe she actually protects Desmond by keeping this information to herself?

Ow yeah i almost forgot. Why is her password Juno (the one that orders Desmond to stab her at the end ...)?

LightRey
12-13-2010, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by JayNike:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JayNike:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
William M. is most definately an Assassin. He also communicates with Shaun about the other teams (it's in his inbox/deleted).
What I noticed the other day though was that in William M.'s email to Lucy, he signs the mail with William, but the email says that the mail comes from Dan M. while the mails to Shaun all say William M.

Hmm interesting http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.
So there is definetly something up with this William / Dan guy. What do you think about the possibility that the M stands for Miles?
I've just started to play brotherhood for the 2nd time, and now I'm really gonna pay attention to all (small) details. I've just gone through the first to games, because after this ending i really got sucked into the game and I really wanna try and figure things out http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmmmm... It is a possibility, but if he is Desmond's father why doesn't anybody tell Desmond? Besides, if he were then wouldn't Lucy have known Desmond's parents were ok in AC1? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because something is up with Lucy ... She has some information she doesn't share with Desmond or the others. That's why I think it's she is part of an unknown 3rd organisation (with this William / Dan M.) or that she has plans of her own. This doesn't mean she has evil plan or something, but maybe she actually protects Desmond by keeping this information to herself?

Ow yeah i almost forgot. Why is her password Juno (the one that orders Desmond to stab her at the end ...)? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I guess you could be right.
I also noticed she still had her Abstergo pen with her. That's probably for hacking into Abstergo though.

JayNike
12-13-2010, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JayNike:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JayNike:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
William M. is most definately an Assassin. He also communicates with Shaun about the other teams (it's in his inbox/deleted).
What I noticed the other day though was that in William M.'s email to Lucy, he signs the mail with William, but the email says that the mail comes from Dan M. while the mails to Shaun all say William M.

Hmm interesting http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.
So there is definetly something up with this William / Dan guy. What do you think about the possibility that the M stands for Miles?
I've just started to play brotherhood for the 2nd time, and now I'm really gonna pay attention to all (small) details. I've just gone through the first to games, because after this ending i really got sucked into the game and I really wanna try and figure things out http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmmmm... It is a possibility, but if he is Desmond's father why doesn't anybody tell Desmond? Besides, if he were then wouldn't Lucy have known Desmond's parents were ok in AC1? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because something is up with Lucy ... She has some information she doesn't share with Desmond or the others. That's why I think it's she is part of an unknown 3rd organisation (with this William / Dan M.) or that she has plans of her own. This doesn't mean she has evil plan or something, but maybe she actually protects Desmond by keeping this information to herself?

Ow yeah i almost forgot. Why is her password Juno (the one that orders Desmond to stab her at the end ...)? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I guess you could be right.
I also noticed she still had her Abstergo pen with her. That's probably for hacking into Abstergo though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe, maybe not only ubisoft knows http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
I'm sure of one thing: she's a too important character to simply die. I've read somewhere
that they've killed her because kristen bell asked too much money to do her voice and stuff. That would be really lame ... But quite unrealistic. I'm sure they've offered her a contract to do a series of AC's nog just game per game. And the sales figures of AC are great, so money won't be a problem, no? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

LightRey
12-13-2010, 11:50 AM
yeah. besides, that would've been big news on the AC boards.

BellsMorte
12-13-2010, 11:51 AM
Concerning the eagle vision and people glowing blue or red... This is something I found interesting the other day while playing the game. (probably it has been mentioned before, but I haven't read it anywhere so far) What if eagle vision is not definitive? What if it's not something that gives away where you stand? I mean, it's not a mind reading power. What if you could glow blue while you were pretending to be an ally?

I thought of this because the people from the cities don't glow any color cause they are neither allies nor enemies. So I guess the glowing color you get derives from the decisions you make. Otherwise, it would be impossible for anyone to infiltrate the assassins' lines without Ezio noticing it, and there had been infiltrations (the thief that aidded the Borgia with the attack to the Villa)

So, what if Lucy glows blue cause she is aidding the assassins but, in truth she is just posing as an ally? She could be going outside to meet with people from Abstergo and leaving that red trail (there are too many footprints, so there's got to be more than one person).

I know it's a hell of a stretch, but I just love the idea of Lucy being a double agent from the beginning and then falling for Desmond and changing sides. I'm probably wrong (though there's a lot of evidence pointing at Lucy being a double agent...) but I'm a romantic like that :P and romanticism can cloud your judgement hehe.

JayNike
12-14-2010, 05:10 AM
Just thought of something (correct me if I'm wrong http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif).
Im sure the next AC will take place in paris during the french revolution, where an ancestor of Desmond will be looking for the shroud.
Why?
Well we've already met 2 OTCB ==> Juno and Minerva. So only Jupiter still remains. I've read somewhere on this forum that there's a temple of jupiter underneath the Notre Dame in Paris. Also Shaun said at the end of brotherhood that the symbols all related to the french revolution.
We've also discovered the apple and the staff (that is locked away underneath the vatican).
The third most imporant PoE remains: the shroud.
The shroud used to be hidden in Montereggione, but it's current whereabouts are unknown. But if my theory is correct, it's hidden in Paris.

So we've had 2 OTCB and 2 PoE, in the next game the remaining OTCB and PoE will be met / obtained.
With this shroud Desmond will eventually save Lucy.
(I know it's a simple theory, but it makes sense to me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif)

Canabary
12-14-2010, 05:32 AM
I think they just made him "kill" lucy to motivate him to complete a mission that will, in the end, cost him something dear to him.

Logically it makes no sense to kill lucy. If she's a templar, exposing her would be far more efficent as the assassins could interrogate her and get access to templar intel.

Just killing her for shock effect is also completely illogical, as Desmond has shown a very heavy dependence on her in the past, killing her would only reduce Desmond's efficency and comprimise the mission.

Having Desmond kill her to make him into a true assassin (I don't think Desmond's killed before?) could make sense, but then why Lucy. It would make more sense to kill someone a little more "useless" like say Shaun or a random stranger, or even a templar.

Since she's the person Desmond obviously cares about the most it makes sense that they would kill her in order for Desmond to "risk it all" to complete his mission and save her. I think we're in for a mission that will either push Desmond beyond his psycological limits, or push him inch close to death. It's the only logical conclusion I can see.

JayNike
12-14-2010, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by JayNike:
Just thought of something (correct me if I'm wrong http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif).
Im sure the next AC will take place in paris during the french revolution, where an ancestor of Desmond will be looking for the shroud.
Why?
Well we've already met 2 OTCB ==> Juno and Minerva. So only Jupiter still remains. I've read somewhere on this forum that there's a temple of jupiter underneath the Notre Dame in Paris. Also Shaun said at the end of brotherhood that the symbols all related to the french revolution.
We've also discovered the apple and the staff (that is locked away underneath the vatican).
The third most imporant PoE remains: the shroud.
The shroud used to be hidden in Montereggione, but it's current whereabouts are unknown. But if my theory is correct, it's hidden in Paris.

So we've had 2 OTCB and 2 PoE, in the next game the remaining OTCB and PoE will be met / obtained.
With this shroud Desmond will eventually save Lucy.
(I know it's a simple theory, but it makes sense to me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif)

Another thing that i thought off http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
Often in the game there are symbols off the holy trinity. So maybe the holy trinity in AC is Minerva - Juno - Jupiter?
So the number 3 is important in the game, and if things go the way i see them Desmond will have met 3 OTCB and have found / obtained 3 PoE.

itsamea-mario
12-14-2010, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by Canabary:
I think they just made him "kill" lucy to motivate him to complete a mission that will, in the end, cost him something dear to him.

Logically it makes no sense to kill lucy. If she's a templar, exposing her would be far more efficent as the assassins could interrogate her and get access to templar intel.

Just killing her for shock effect is also completely illogical, as Desmond has shown a very heavy dependence on her in the past, killing her would only reduce Desmond's efficency and comprimise the mission.

Having Desmond kill her to make him into a true assassin (I don't think Desmond's killed before?) could make sense, but then why Lucy. It would make more sense to kill someone a little more "useless" like say Shaun or a random stranger, or even a templar.

Since she's the person Desmond obviously cares about the most it makes sense that they would kill her in order for Desmond to "risk it all" to complete his mission and save her. I think we're in for a mission that will either push Desmond beyond his psycological limits, or push him inch close to death. It's the only logical conclusion I can see.

have you played AC2 (if not, spoilers i suppose)
desmond kills about ten abstergo guards.(though i suppose it is optional)
maybe its to relieve him of all emotional ties, and make him more independant, a lack of liabilities makes fior a useful device.

theres lots of speculation as to why they did it, and i'm all for participating and trying to guess what and why.
but one thing ubisoft have showed they're quite profficient at is drawing suprises from nowhere.
and i'm sure (hoping) that they know what they're doing, and will not disapoint. (touch wood)

sandmanssorrow
12-14-2010, 10:02 AM
I am actually okay with Lucy being offed. She was okay but from the sound of it there is a female equivalent of Desmond that he needs to find so they can prevent the catastrophe together.
I think it would be great if the next AC saw a new playable main character and if it's a chick that's great, our sister gamers should be as catered to as us males. And if that is the case it in turn raises the question of "CO-OP STORY"?
Lucy shouldn't be used as this other main character, she already has a defined role in the story and I never felt like she was a main character but rather a supporting character for Desmond's story.
I agree that she was probably a double agent anyway.

Canabary
12-14-2010, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by itsamea-mario:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Canabary:
I think they just made him "kill" lucy to motivate him to complete a mission that will, in the end, cost him something dear to him.

Logically it makes no sense to kill lucy. If she's a templar, exposing her would be far more efficent as the assassins could interrogate her and get access to templar intel.

Just killing her for shock effect is also completely illogical, as Desmond has shown a very heavy dependence on her in the past, killing her would only reduce Desmond's efficency and comprimise the mission.

Having Desmond kill her to make him into a true assassin (I don't think Desmond's killed before?) could make sense, but then why Lucy. It would make more sense to kill someone a little more "useless" like say Shaun or a random stranger, or even a templar.

Since she's the person Desmond obviously cares about the most it makes sense that they would kill her in order for Desmond to "risk it all" to complete his mission and save her. I think we're in for a mission that will either push Desmond beyond his psycological limits, or push him inch close to death. It's the only logical conclusion I can see.

have you played AC2 (if not, spoilers i suppose)
desmond kills about ten abstergo guards.(though i suppose it is optional)
maybe its to relieve him of all emotional ties, and make him more independant, a lack of liabilities makes fior a useful device.

theres lots of speculation as to why they did it, and i'm all for participating and trying to guess what and why.
but one thing ubisoft have showed they're quite profficient at is drawing suprises from nowhere.
and i'm sure (hoping) that they know what they're doing, and will not disapoint. (touch wood) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh right, I totally forgot about the Abstergo attack at the end. Ok, then that's illogical too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

To me at least, that would mean the only logical conclusion would be that they are trying to motivate Desmond into doing something "risky".

To just kill her off just to be mean doesn't really seem to serve TWCB's goals. (Not that I know what they are...It just seems illogical to go to all that effort to get Desmond to do things and then kill the person he cares the most for)

rocketxsurgeon
12-14-2010, 11:48 AM
I personally don't think she's dead, or going to remain dead.

Lucy may be keeping things from Desmond, but I think it's to protect him- not betraying him.

rocketxsurgeon
12-14-2010, 11:58 AM
Also, we can predict that the next story will take place in the French revolution, the All Seeing Eye and the Phrygian Cap join together in one place- The Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen (1791).

Look;

http://jspivey.wikispaces.com/...ch-School-301750.jpg (http://jspivey.wikispaces.com/file/view/Declaration-of-the-Rights-of-Man-and-Citizen-1789-French-School-301750.jpg/42582207/Declaration-of-the-Rights-of-Man-and-Citizen-1789-French-School-301750.jpg)

The Eye is displayed at the top, whilst the cap is just underneath. Shaun was just about to mention it at the end until time froze.

itsamea-mario
12-14-2010, 12:08 PM
we don't KNOW that, we can think that.
lots of people thought the same about AC2, that it'd be france or japan, nobody guessed italian renaissance, so until ubi say anything concrete its all mere speculation.

rocketxsurgeon
12-14-2010, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by itsamea-mario:
we don't KNOW that, we can think that.
lots of people thought the same about AC2, that it'd be france or japan, nobody guessed italian renaissance, so until ubi say anything concrete its all mere speculation.

Well we don't know, but everything points to it, it would be an educational guess to where the next ancestor will be.

JayNike
12-14-2010, 12:14 PM
that's true, we don't know for sure but the clues are very obvious this time that it's gonna be france. at the end of AC 1 you could guess japan or (yona guni stuff and writings). Shaun even said so this time. Combine this with the jupiter temple underneath notre dame and for me it clear that they're taking it to paris next time

"The Notre Dame de Paris stands on the site of Paris' first Christian church, Saint Etienne basilica, which was itself built on the site of a Roman temple to Jupiter. "