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Fliger747
10-16-2004, 11:38 PM
There has been a lot of discussion here about US planes and carriers, particularly the (fabulous) F4U.

However the Zeke is an amazing plane for it's era when it is considered where and how it was developed. For most it will be a real fighter pilots mount. Even late in the war a well flown Zeke was a force to consider! If you are a good shot and really like angles tactics, you will find this a real joy to fly and fight!

Range, manuverability, easy to fly and land, canons for those who can shoot! Winning with either the American or Japanese planes is a matter of controlling the battle to keep it on your terms.

TooCool_12f
10-17-2004, 04:12 AM
Zeke's biggest lack was its speed. once in the fight, it couldn't get out unless he's victorious or the oponent let him do it.

Some will say it's biggest flaw was its light building, but it counts only if you get hit... and not being able to escape increases the risk of being hit

Yellonet
10-17-2004, 06:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TooCool_12f:
Zeke's biggest lack was its speed. once in the fight, it couldn't get out unless he's victorious or the oponent let him do it.

Some will say it's biggest flaw was its light building, but it counts only if you get hit... and not being able to escape increases the risk of being hit <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Totally agree. Somehow though, the AI Zeke drivers seem to be able to match any speed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Feathered_IV
10-17-2004, 07:39 AM
The Japanese design philosophy seems to have been that you don't win by getting shot at. This seemed to work too while Japan was on the attack, but not so when the real slugging match started. I agree though, for its day the A6M was a first rate fighter. Its weakness was that it remained in service too long. Comparing to its early war contemporaries, its record speaks for itself. But comparing it to second generation WWII fighters is a bit like saying the Sopwith Camel as rubbish because the Bf109 could wipe the floor with it (an exaggeration, but you know what I mean).

I must admit that I like flying the Zero. Particulary the A6M2 when I'm heavily outnmbered. It has the manouverability to let you dance out of harms way and the firepower to give some too. The only time I really suffer is when I get greedy or impatient and hang on too long to one plane and allow others to get into a good position.

VW-IceFire
10-17-2004, 09:15 AM
To those who underestimate the power of the Zeke flown by an experienced and capable pilot.

We had a fellow on UK-Dedicated last night who for several minutes fought about 1KM away from the Red base. He fought P-38's, P-51's, and P-47's. He shot down several...I wasn't counting but essentially he tied their entire group up. He didn't attack on takeoff or landing (he was too busy anyways) so they were quite legitimate targets but he kept his speed and his manuverability to the max and got a whole bunch of the red team before they managed to down his plane.

So I look forward to flying and seeing more fellows with experience on the A6M. With more variants...I'm sure I'll find one that matches my style best and I'll be able to learn another fighting style.

SkyChimp
10-17-2004, 09:24 AM
The Germans may have been better off flying A6M2s as opposed to Bf-109Es during the BoB.

It would have given them far more loiter time over England, it would have negated any advantage the Spitfire had in the turn. It may not have been as tough as the 109E, but it was adequately armed, and would have been harder to hit.

If may have been just the medicine for that battle.

Fliger747
10-17-2004, 11:23 AM
Late in the war, the Japanese were often fighting more on the defensive, which allowed the enemy coming to them, making the speed issue a lot less important. More important issues were relative pilot experience by then, a big deal in a plane that is built to fight, not run!

In dealing with a faster foe that uses energy tactics one must master the minute timing of the lead turn and the guns defense manuver. Not so much different than jinking away froma SAM at the proper instant!

Aztek_Eagle
10-17-2004, 11:30 AM
the lack of the seke was that i was not born in japan on that era to fly one of them in combat

Chuck_Older
10-17-2004, 12:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aztek_Eagle:
the lack of the seke was that i was not born in japan on that era to fly one of them in combat <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Right. You would have died, even if you had been accepted into the flying corps. But hey, have your fantasy

VW-IceFire
10-17-2004, 12:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
The Germans may have been better off flying A6M2s as opposed to Bf-109Es during the BoB.

It would have given them far more loiter time over England, it would have negated any advantage the Spitfire had in the turn. It may not have been as tough as the 109E, but it was adequately armed, and would have been harder to hit.

If may have been just the medicine for that battle. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Was it available in strength during 1940? With the RAF inventing much of its tactics during this time...I could suppose that its possible that Spitfire and even Hurricane pilots would have much more quickly learned the art of high speed passes to negate the Zero's advantage. Whatever advantage the 109 had in sustaining damage from 8 .303's...the Zero would not. Ever taken a Hurricane Mk I against the Zero. Its a fairly easy kill.

Still...an interesting hypothetical question. Not one that can be easily answered.

chris455
10-17-2004, 01:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aztek_Eagle:
the lack of the seke was that i was not born in japan on that era to fly one of them in combat <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif
They did well enough for themselves without you,
kid.

JG53Frankyboy
10-17-2004, 04:44 PM
well, i wouldnt call the A6M2 and A6M3 Model32 as to slow in the year 1942 !

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/rdunn/zeroperformance/zero_performance.htm

keeping in mind its main oponents F4F , P-39/P-400 , P-40 , Hurricane, Buffallo at that time


and about Reisens for BoB , well, i think the RAF would had enough proplems when the Luftwaffe had intriouced the Droptanks for their Emils earlier - a pure ignorance from the LW leaders !
fortunatly !

Giganoni
10-17-2004, 04:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:

Was it available in strength during 1940? With the RAF inventing much of its tactics during this time...I could suppose that its possible that Spitfire and even Hurricane pilots would have much more quickly learned the art of high speed passes to negate the Zero's advantage. Whatever advantage the 109 had in sustaining damage from 8 .303's...the Zero would not. Ever taken a Hurricane Mk I against the Zero. Its a fairly easy kill.

Still...an interesting hypothetical question. Not one that can be easily answered. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, what high speed advantage could a Hurricane have over the A6m2 in 1940? Hurricane I is slower than the A6m2, Hurri mkII is only a little bit faster. Also wouldn't 2 20mm cannons do plenty of damage to a Hurri? Well anyway I like the Hurricane too, looking forward to fighting against it in a Ki-43.

SkyChimp
10-17-2004, 05:00 PM
The A6M2 was in production and in combat in China as early as June 1940. I don't think there was enough difference in performance between contemporary Spitires and A6M2s for the Sptifire to have any significant advantage. The Hurricane certainly wouldn't.

The point of my post is that the A6M2 would have given the Germans an outstanding, if lightly built, fighter that could have spent more time over England. Time to pursue RAF planes, loiter over their fields. That alone would bave been a major advantage.

LEXX_Luthor
10-17-2004, 05:09 PM
mmm, they probably could provide escort over Ireland with Zero. Still, He~100 was what they needed.

JG7_Rall
10-17-2004, 06:20 PM
Better hope they don't get hit by AAA http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Aztek_Eagle
10-17-2004, 10:50 PM
No i would not die, i would live for ever! i would single handle anything the americans, chinise, russians, british, and australians could trow me.

John_Stag
10-18-2004, 12:01 AM
...Nah, too easy.

WUAF_Badsight
10-18-2004, 01:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
Right. You would have died, even if you had been accepted into the flying corps. But hey, have your fantasy <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh man . . . WRONG guy to pick a online DF with Chuck

just go 1v1 with him . . . then we will see how quick you are to say such things

WUAF_Badsight
10-18-2004, 01:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:

Still...an interesting hypothetical question. Not one that can be easily answered. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yea it is

with Zekes the Germans wouldnt have had to go home

the RAF would have been wasted

the Spitfire Mk5 definantly has an advantage over the A6m2 in climb , which allows it to dictate the fight . . . . but the Spitfire Mk1 had the same HP as the Hurricane . . . 1050 Hp

the RAF would have been mincemeat

Tater-SW-
10-18-2004, 08:53 AM
It's important to remember that in RL, IJN pilots prefered serial passes on targets, NOT turn and burn. Read the First Team books, you usually hear of zeros making BnZ style attacks, using their far superior abilities in the vertical vs F4Fs. F4F drivers felt the only way to get a shot on a zeke at all was to:

1. Surprise them from above.

2. Get shots in scissors (Beam-defense or "Thatch Weave") (which implies a zeke in a TnB angles fight)

3. The zeke pakes (or blows) a pass and zooms in front, giving the F4F a shot as he flies away out front. (this was helped by the fact it frequently (usually?) took multiple pases to take out a tough Grumman)

I remember pilot comments in one of the books saying that they would have been toast if the zero had just latched onto them instead of making BnZ passes.

tater

Fliger747
10-18-2004, 11:32 AM
The vaunted Spitfires of 1942 had their az (wood working tool?) handed to them by the Zeke in the Pacific.

My guess is that Germans could have produced a 'pretty good' Zeke. Their version, not as manuverable or with the range was the Fw190.

Every plane is a bunch of compromises!

WUAF_Badsight
10-18-2004, 04:23 PM
you sure ?

i know otherwise

SkyChimp
10-18-2004, 07:05 PM
AFAIK, Spits didn't show up in the Pacific until June 1943 during the defense of Darwin. They performed fairly: not as bad as the Japanese would have you think, and not as good as the Aussies would have you think.

WUAF_Badsight
10-18-2004, 10:11 PM
untill i looked it up i too would have said the Zero would have wasted the Spitfire

Spitfires vrs Zeros over Darwin & the US bomber base near Darwin

.

March 2nd Spitfires downed 3 out of 16 bombers . . . . .w/o loss

March 15 , Spitfires downed 7 for . . . . 4 lost

May 2nd , Spitfires downed 6 for . . . . . 5 lost

june 20 , Spitfires downed 5 fighters & 9 bombers for . . . . 2 lost

june 28 , Spitfires downed 4 fighters & 2 bombers for . . . . . 1 lost (forced landing crash)

june 30 , Spitfires downed 6 bombers & 2 Fighters for . . . . . 6 lost

july 6th , Spitfires downed 7 bombers & 2 fighters for . . . . . 8 lost

september 7th , Spitfires downed 5 fighters for . . . . 3 lost

after this there are no more raids over Australia & Spitfire / Zero encounters after September 7th 1943 happen elsewhere

this only covers Spitfires against Zeros over Darwin & Fenton (the US Liberator base)


online the A6M2 gets dominated by the MkV Spitfire

the MkV Spitfire is the better E fighter especially over 3K , even the A6M5 has a hard time & cannot match the E fighting abilitys of the MkV Spitfire

GRYPHON_401Cdn
10-18-2004, 10:54 PM
Before you state the RAF would have been "mincemeat", just remember that you are talking about the oldest AF in the world, and they havent come second to anyone yet, regardless of equipment limitations.

WUAF_Badsight
10-19-2004, 12:02 AM
the only thing that saved the RAf was the shift in focus of the Luftwaffe

& the LW was using Emils . . . . . .

imagine how much worse it would have gone if they used Zeros

mincemeat . . . . a faster elimination for sure

Mr.Drop
10-19-2004, 09:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GRYPHON_401Cdn:
Before you state the RAF would have been "mincemeat", just remember that you are talking about the oldest AF in the world, and they havent come second to anyone yet, regardless of equipment limitations. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The oldest is the best?
Think about the fate of British battleship Prince of Wales, history tells everything.
I am even wondering how long the "powerful and glorious" RN could stand if it were facing the carriers group of IJN in 1941.