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XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 02:52 AM
Hi, on one of the HL session, i flew a p39 and i did a loop near the ground, i almost crashed, while the bf109 behind me crashed to the ground

it makes me wonder if a plane can turn better does it mean that it can make a complete loop faster

thanks for the info

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 02:52 AM
Hi, on one of the HL session, i flew a p39 and i did a loop near the ground, i almost crashed, while the bf109 behind me crashed to the ground

it makes me wonder if a plane can turn better does it mean that it can make a complete loop faster

thanks for the info

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 03:03 AM
I'm not sure if I undrestand you correct...
anyhow, any turn , especialy in horizontal, depends of the aircraft wing surface, so, an plane with greater wing surface, could turn and loop better than one with smaller wing surface.Of course, that also depends of the a/c weight.
i.e.: a La5 willtmake a tighter loop then a 262.
Thenicaly, it;s more complicated.


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XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 03:14 AM
thanks von_zero

so basicly a plane with bigger wing surface and less weight will loop much faster ( well not bomber iam sure http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif),

because i had a similar experience again while this time i was in a 109, chasing a yak

he did a loop, i followed, but i crashed in the process
i remember at the time my fuel was 50% so i considered my
109 was much lighter in term of weight

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 03:18 AM
are you talking an inverted loop downwards ???

commonly known as a "split S" where you turn upside down and pull back on the stick, to do an upside down loop skimming the ground ???

if so .. the trick with those is to cut throttle to zero as you flip inverted and sometimes even add a stage of flap.

the P11ccan slpit S from less than 200 metres http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 03:33 AM
no..no.. its not the split S , its just a complete loop upwards, but closer to the ground..

its kinda like a trick i see people do in HL on low level dogfighting,, even though most of them crashed but some ( probably with better flying skill http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) survived the loop without crashing the ground

i tried it with the p39 my initial altitude was 600m, speed was around 400-420, i completed my loop very close to the ground, while the other guys crashed his 109 while trying to follow my loop,

and this make me wonder, because 109 cant turn much comparing to p39, so i just wondering if a horizontal turn (left and right) with a better turner plane like most vvs planes.. makes a turn fighter better at making a loop upwards?

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 03:33 AM
maybe yes, im not sure too!!

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XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 04:01 AM
The Bf109 was notoriously bad at pulling out of loops. RAF pilots learned this very quickly during the Battle of Britain. If they were being chased by a Bf109 at low altitude, the RAF pilot would perform a split S. The Bf109 pilot, if he was inexperienced, would follow, not be able to pull up in time and crash.


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XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 07:57 AM
The wing of a Bf-109 is very thin and a socalled laminar-profile which means that there is not much lift in the wing, but it produce less drag, the 109 could fly fast but would stall the wings easely if pulling too hard in the stick=high angle of attack, other aircrafts like the Hurricane had a fat wing with more lift but produced more drag and is therefore able to do tigther turns/loops and so on but flew slower.
Use the 109's speed and don't loop with the enemy in low levels.

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 08:05 AM
diving towards teh groung then looping is a touch dangerous as you are a sitting duck if there is anyone following you with a height advantage

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 12:44 PM
Going back to the original question...

I'm suspecting you're asking this question because you frequently engage in a prolonged loop fight, correct? Basically, loops can be considered as turns, yes.

The plane with the initial advantage in turning, is more likely to finally gain the upperhand when continuous loops occur.

...

However, unlike a flat turn, a loop has to deal with the forces of gravity in a more direct manner, and this effects the outcome of a loop fight in subtle ways.

When the loop fight is a mere contest of two planes trying to pull the tighetst radius possible, the winner is undoubtably the better turning plane.


* Because a plane looses speed drastically while going up, and gains speed while coming down, the more the loop trajectory becomes elongated(into a vertical oval shape), the more advantage a better climbing/accelerating plane begins to achieve. It goes vertical more easily, and regains more speed while coming down.

* Because the air speeds are so low when a plane is on top of a loop, the better turning plane gains a tactical advantage when two planes start coming downwards from the top. This is because the better turning plane can start the next loop faster than it's adversary.

* When a plane finishes one loop, it's E state is lower than from when it started the loop. This means the more you loop, the harder it becomes each time.



So, typically, the faster plane will try to 'elongate' the loop, which of course, ultimately arrives at the most elongated forms of all loops - the Immelmann or the Hammerhead. The better turning plane will try to lure its adversary into the tightest loop possible.

..

Let's say a Bf109K-4 is closing on a Yak-3. When to avoid the fire, the Yak-3 goes into a loop. In this situation, if the K-4 follows the loop, ultimately the K-4 will lose the initiative on the offense. Soon, he'll be pressed to defend. But if the K-4 does not follow the Yak-3, the K-4 will retain its offensive.





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XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 04:14 PM
Well, yes. If a loop is a vertical turn, then a turn is a horizontal loop.

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XyZspineZyX
07-11-2003, 07:37 PM
Bamatt wrote:
- Well, yes. If a loop is a vertical turn, then a turn
- is a horizontal loop.
-
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- How many boards could the Mongols hoard if the
- Mongol Horde got bored?

Yeap, but only if you use the elevators and ailerons only( no rudder). If you nuse the rudder, the turn becomes "torqued" someway. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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