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jugent
11-30-2005, 02:56 PM
I havnt flown the spit for some time, but some days ago I tested it again.
What a bird!!!!
I zoom-climbed with two 109:s on my back and with 40km/h IAS on 1.5k I could use the ailerons!!!
The 109:s dropped back, stalled out much earlier.

I regarded it fragile in the former patch, but this has changed for the better in the latest patch.
It can take some damage and the engine can run for a long time smoking. A few hits wont effect the characteristics to much.

Very accurate guns, dont bleed E, curv well, climb magnificant, exelent view.

Its easy to get overconfident in it, and try to down LW on your own.
I agree in what Heinz Knoke wrote
"To shoot down a spitfire was considered as a feat"

I well coordinated spit-team could take on everything.
Its an airdominance-fighter, not like the FW sneaking around, diving down shoot and run.
This wont create air-superiority.

The success of the FW on war-clouds is as far as my limited experience tells me, because most of the time red are outnumbered by blue, and a great furball at low alt is the right environment for the FW-190, on its own its limited by thats its good on only two things, speed and firepower.

Its amazing that its outcurved by the P-38 a hevy twin-engined fighter.

VW-IceFire
11-30-2005, 03:00 PM
The success of the FW on war-clouds is as far as my limited experience tells me, because most of the time red are outnumbered by blue, and a great furball at low alt is the right environment for the FW-190, on its own its limited by thats its good on only two things, speed and firepower.
The succes of the FW190 on WarClouds has little to do with the Spitfire specifically but I will point out that while everyone is flying about in a 1943 Spitfire VIII or IX the FW190 guys are flying about in late 1944 and 1945 FW190's.

Plus the speed and firepower thing is a definate advantage in the fight if used corrrectly. There are benefits and downsides to both the FW190 and Spitfire ethos but when it comes into a closed cockpit server the FW190 gains a fair advantage by being able to bounce.

Gibbage1
11-30-2005, 03:05 PM
The better kill/loss ratio of the FW-190 is due 100% to the pilots tactics. The FW-190 cant dogfight, so they dont. They dive in from alt, get there kill, and return to alt. Never enguaging the enemy for an extended time. Once they had there fill, they go home and claim there points. All other aircraft seem to mid it up a lot more.

LStarosta
11-30-2005, 03:10 PM
Oh shut up...

If you have a gripe about something, just go out and say it instead of pussyfooting your way through it.

WOLFMondo
11-30-2005, 03:33 PM
Wanna know the success on WC with the FW? Is cause theres a core of people who fly it on WC TS and fly wing together, engage together and cover each other. Individually there all great virtual pilots but they coordinate there attacks and 99% of the kills are drag and bag. Red guys chasing FW's suckered in and shot down by another FW pilot on comms coordinating there attacks and defence.

Theres only 2 Spit drivers on WC that do the same on red. Thats Blu and Blackbird, both extremely dangerous in Spitfires.

Lucius_Esox
11-30-2005, 06:19 PM
I dont' mind being dragged and bagged on Wc,, http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif as long as I take one with with me.

Seems to p1ss the Fw190 jocks off alot more than it does me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

mortoma
11-30-2005, 07:44 PM
I don't find the Spit IX to be so blazing or amazing. It's pretty darn slow for a late war fighter. Everything else is good but it's just soooo darn slow!!!!

BfHeFwMe
11-30-2005, 09:22 PM
Agree, it's fun having a solid and healthy enemy to romp around with. I find it no problem to handle two 109's solo in most Spit's, it's a challenge but easily can be done. 190's are a bit different, if they're paired and in sync you've got major problems solo. While your attempting to bag one the others firepower and speed must be respected.

Very hard to bring 190's down this patch, which is cool, hispanio's can still do it. The .50's are another story, takes a full load to down one, simply don't have that much time to throw away in combat on one aircraft. Your going down if you do. I've pretty much quit flying .50's only birds, suspect ya'll blues will see more and more Spits. People are still learning them, great handlers at slow speed, eats any 109 easy in a turn fight. They can't run very good either. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ploughman
12-01-2005, 02:15 AM
I don't find the Spit IX to be so blazing or amazing. It's pretty darn slow for a late war fighter. Everything else is good but it's just soooo darn slow!!!!

Sure, if you think 1943 was late war. True, the IX with 25lbs is only worth another 30mph up in the thin air, and the never present XIV isn't a speed demon down in the weeds but Spits rule way up high and 190s can't bounce from altitude at altitude. The Spits on Warclouds or any other fully switched server aren't flown by point *****s operating as teams with worked out tactics and coms, pedals, throttle quadrants and track IR, and the Reds aren't responding to the Blue's tactics as would happen in real life either, it's like Ground Hog Day in there.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

The last time I went in WC I got dragged and bagged by a pair of 190s! I laughed my head off. Dozey twit that I am.

jugent
12-01-2005, 03:48 AM
I dont think that blue side is more frequent on teamspeak or that they are more coordinated.

I think that the red flyers are recruited from the same population as thoose who fly blue.

The spit is a little slower than than FW but the FW accelarate slow at high speed. The spit will come out of a dive turn or climb with higher initial speed because it dont drag so much, and that will compensate the lower top-speed.

If you are foolish enough to stay on a fleeing FW so long time that his wingman can glue himself to your six, you must revalutate your tactic.

Thoose who complain about the spit should fly 109 or 190.

The spit beats the 190 and 109 in at least four out of five valued characteristics for a fighter,

Spit vs 109, damage, climb, firepower, turnability.

Spit vs 190 climb, view, turnability, stability.

There is always a way to get out of trouble in a spit, at all altitudes.

In a 109 or 190 there is always an excuse to why you got shoot down.

Grue_
12-01-2005, 04:52 AM
Wasn't someone keeping track of how many threads whined about relative aircraft performance based on someones experience on a dogfight server?

Pilot skill, tactics & luck are more important than minor differences in turn performance, climb rate etc.

ploughman
12-01-2005, 05:09 AM
No. N00bs fly Spits remember. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sure all pilots are recruited from the same population but are you seriously suggesting that a proportionally similar number of Spit pilots on War clouds fly in as co-ordinated a manner as alot of the high scoring Fw-190 jocks? Not so. If I fly a Spit on war clouds, which I sometimes do, I don't fly with coms, pedals, track IR or a throttle quadron. I fly with a Sidewinder joystick and a mouse, alone. It certainly makes me more vulnerable, my situational awareness is limited, and I have no rudder control. I don't know for sure but I'd be willing to bet the top ten scorers on War Clouds have a top notch interface and probably track IR too, and fly as a team.

As you pointed out there's no reason for Spits not to suceed on War Clouds provided they used tactics that played to their strengths. Their realtive lack of success, therefore, can only be explained by a lack of co-ordination and tactics perhaps exacerbated by having a poor interface. Spits on War Clouds do not have their **** together in the same way as the 190 crews.

I am not complaining about the Spitfire, I think it's the schnizel, but it would not be accurate to describe the types we have in game as 'late war'. Even so they should be more than able to hold their own.

The last time I got dragged and bagged it took about 1.5 seconds from me seeing the drag to becoming vapourware, I hadn't even completed my roll in on the target, the important thing about drag and bag is not just what you see, but what you don't see. I don't bother chasing 190s in Spits, but occassionally I do find I have to come up behind them to shoot them down.

Fly a 190? Don't think so, I'd never feel clean again. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WOLFMondo
12-01-2005, 05:49 AM
Originally posted by jugent:


Spit vs 190 climb, view, turnability, stability.


Thats an opinion and not really exact. In a high speed turn the Spitfire is about equal, stability? The Spitfire is very unstable at higher speeds (this can be an advantage) whereas the 190 is pretty stable as a gun platform and the view, well forward view yes, side, rear and downward view IMHO the 190 is much better. Its roll rate also helps the view as you can 'waggle' your wings very quickly to get a look in your blind spots.

MEGILE
12-01-2005, 05:52 AM
Originally posted by jugent:

In a 109 or 190 there is always an excuse to why you got shoot down.

I think you got that the wrong way around buddy.
At any point during the fight a BF-109 or FW-190 can say.. no thanks, I'm not fighting you spitfire, nose down and run home.
Can't do that in the spitfire.

SparrowThree
12-01-2005, 11:12 AM
Megile wins!

Hristo_
12-01-2005, 12:08 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

OldMan___
12-01-2005, 01:06 PM
This FW are in advantage because they are 44 and 45 birds is ****... I fly 190A6 whenever possibel and I am as succesful on it as with the 190A9. Exactly same tatics.. exactly same results.

if there were a 190A4 I would even use it on WC.

danjama
12-01-2005, 01:13 PM
"No. N00bs fly Spits remember."

Holy **** dude you stuck back in 3.04? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Anyway whats all this comm **** about? TIR? WTF?

I fly blue on warclouds, usually FW190A8, and i never go on Comms, if i do its to listen caus my mic has been busted for about 4 months!

I aint got a chance of hell in gettin a TIR, im ****in broke all the time!

When i go on warclouds, i fly alone or if those ignorant blue arseholes will listen i might get a wingman. But that is pointless caus once we see planes we dont know where the hell the other went. Blue is every man for himself as much as reds, that comm myth is something the reds made up to feel better about their **** flying skillz!

Get this i dont even go above 3000m on warclouds anymore. No need! Caus all the spit and P51 flyers are down at 500m trying to dogfight. If Spitfire was flown like a 190 it would be so effective, instead spit flyers like to use all their energy turnin on the deck, then wondered why the got blown to hell.

I'll tell you why, 250kmh, high wing over trying to kill a blue, then a 190 gets that perfect high deflection shot right into your plane.

BOOM! End of low and slow spitfire pilot! Nice kill for me.

Rant over.

Xiolablu3
12-01-2005, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
The better kill/loss ratio of the FW-190 is due 100% to the pilots tactics. The FW-190 cant dogfight, so they dont. They dive in from alt, get there kill, and return to alt. Never enguaging the enemy for an extended time. Once they had there fill, they go home and claim there points. All other aircraft seem to mid it up a lot more.


Yes, I agree Gib. You have to be a lot more careful not to mix it up in a FW190, otherwise you can get caught out and outmanouvred easily.

I dont fly the bird a lot, but I find it hard to keep diciplined when I do, its so tempting to try and turn with the target, rather than abort the attack and keep your energy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I prefer a good roller coaster TnB ride, twisting and turning with each other, adrenalin rushes, so I prefer more TnB planes.

It takes patience to fly a FW.190A

If we had a proper 1944-45 model Spitfire like the Mk14 (of which there were about the same number built as the Me109K4 and FW190D9) then it would be faster.

p1ngu666
12-01-2005, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by OldMan___:
This FW are in advantage because they are 44 and 45 birds is ****... I fly 190A6 whenever possibel and I am as succesful on it as with the 190A9. Exactly same tatics.. exactly same results.

if there were a 190A4 I would even use it on WC.

yep, 190 is best plane ingame atm imo

190's speed lends itself to teamwork more than spit or a plane of similer qualities, (109,yak etc)

spits handle bad for me, lw aircraft dont, la7 is a joke to fly, and im not the only one to say that...

flying 190 isnt that hard tbh, its not instintive to most tho, and there are tricks that advanced 190 pilots pull, but the basics arent hard to learn.

p1ngu666
12-01-2005, 01:31 PM
well yeah, if we had a mk14, or 25lb boost then spit would be much more competative.

faustnik
12-01-2005, 01:31 PM
The Spit IX that we have in the sim is the one that flew over the ETO until the very end of 1944. It is a correct historic match for the Fw190A6, Fw190A8 and even the early A9s.

Yes, there were faster Spitfires flying over England in 1944 but, the Spit IXs that we have would be the most frequent versions operating over the front lines in 1944.

Against the '44 LW planes, Fw190As, Bf109G6s and Bf109G14s, the Spit IX +18 is an excellent match.

Fish6891
12-01-2005, 01:32 PM
Everyone here is misguided to an extent. I am the only one who knows everything.

danjama
12-01-2005, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
The Spit IX that we have in the sim is the one that flew over the ETO until the very end of 1944. It is a correct historic match for the Fw190A6, Fw190A8 and even the early A9s.

Yes, there were faster Spitfires flying over England in 1944 but, the Spit IXs that we have would be the most frequent versions operating over the front lines in 1944.

Against the '44 LW planes, Fw190As, Bf109G6s and Bf109G14s, the Spit IX +18 is an excellent match.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

Estocade85
12-01-2005, 01:50 PM
I find that both blue and red have good coordinations. It's mainly tactics that change from one group to another. Anyway, I fly red mostly and I always go on comms. The guys there are the "permamnents", and you get the feel that everybody knows everybody, by voice alone! Hell, ppl are starting to recognise my voice too hehe must be the accent.

So yeah, once you get to know the ppl you're flying with, you get to know their style. AND when you know their style, you can be a good wingman without actually having to communiate verbally all the time.

About the .50 cals, yeah they're not mega canons but they sure screw up controls and what now pretty good! I fly p-47 mostly, and a couple of 8 .50 cals in someone rear end will surely bust something important. No need for it to explode, it'll just head down low for the spit to eat up or to crash 10 m of his home base runways. I don't mind if other finish it off, I still get the satisfaction.

stathem
12-01-2005, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
The Spit IX that we have in the sim is the one that flew over the ETO until the very end of 1944. It is a correct historic match for the Fw190A6, Fw190A8 and even the early A9s.

Yes, there were faster Spitfires flying over England in 1944 but, the Spit IXs that we have would be the most frequent versions operating over the front lines in 1944.

Against the '44 LW planes, Fw190As, Bf109G6s and Bf109G14s, the Spit IX +18 is an excellent match.

But Faust, if we are talking Warclouds, as we inevitably are, then the presence of Ta-152s, K-4s, and to an extent, Doras, indicates a "tactical operations over the German Border in about April 1945" scenario.

Spit XIV, Tempest, and +25lb boost IXs are it. Last time I was on there we chased a D-9 for 30km at 20,000'. Only got him when he was stupid enough to turn round(mind you we were running out of map). Not gonna happen in a XIV is it?

And no, the Me-262 wasn't really flying air superiority missions at that time. Maybe some bomb runs. (thta last not directed at you, Faust)

p1ngu666
12-01-2005, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Fish6891:
Everyone here is misguided to an extent. I am the only one who knows everything.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

yeah faustnik that is true, but how many 109 drivers drive something that doesnt have alchol?

stuff like dora, introduced into service in sept 44, so thats 4 months service in 44 AT MOST

k4 was introduced later than that iirec

stathem, 262 was doing what i think it did best, jabo http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

faustnik
12-01-2005, 02:01 PM
Stathem,

"Warclouds" is not the only game in town, it doesn't seek to have an accurate planset anyway.
My only point is that while the Merlin 66 was using +18 boost in 1943, the majority of Spitfires over the front line throughout 1944 were using the same engine at the same boost pressures.

Yes, you can say the Spit IX +18 is overmatched with the Dora or the very rare Ta-152s, I agree, and would love to see a +25 Spit IX or Spit XIV added to the sim. What you can't say is that we don't have a historical and very good matchup of Spitfire and Fw190A versions.

Warclouds is just a fun dogfight server, not a measure of the historical accuracy of PF.

stathem
12-01-2005, 02:06 PM
I agree entirely, Faust, it's just that the majority of respondants in this thread ARE talking about the WC situation. My preferance is for matching stuff up month by month, theatre by theatre. But that's not always the most popular way to go, unfortunatley.

MEGILE
12-01-2005, 02:07 PM
Agree with Faustnik.

Stating the Spitfire IXe +18 boost is a suitable enemy for the FW-190 A6/A8 and BF109G6/G14 does not detract anything from the consensus that a Spitfire XIV and IX +25 boost would be most welcome in this game. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

faustnik
12-01-2005, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by stathem:
I agree entirely, Faust, it's just that the majority of respondants in this thread ARE talking about the WC situation. My preferance is for matching stuff up month by month, theatre by theatre. But that's not always the most popular way to go, unfortunatley.

Maybe what really needs to be done is to provide the Warclouds host with some accurate 1944 maps. I bet they would use them.

Zoom2136
12-01-2005, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jugent:

In a 109 or 190 there is always an excuse to why you got shoot down.

I think you got that the wrong way around buddy.
At any point during the fight a BF-109 or FW-190 can say.. no thanks, I'm not fighting you spitfire, nose down and run home.
Can't do that in the spitfire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is because all but a few spit driver fly with Auto Prop Pitch... if you set it to manual in a Mark VIII or IX and drop you're pitch to about 80% in a dive you can stay glued to a 109 rudder http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

p1ngu666
12-01-2005, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
I agree entirely, Faust, it's just that the majority of respondants in this thread ARE talking about the WC situation. My preferance is for matching stuff up month by month, theatre by theatre. But that's not always the most popular way to go, unfortunatley.

Maybe what really needs to be done is to provide the Warclouds host with some accurate 1944 maps. I bet they would use them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i did consider making a couple, i dont fly on wc but maybe shut a few ppl up.

use the hilly onwhine map, stick test strip on them. raise your start height by 3000-4000metres.

version for all aircraft like that, and one where bomber aircraft can spawn that high, while fighters spawn on the deck.

Lucius_Esox
12-01-2005, 03:21 PM
Everyone here is misguided to an extent. I am the only one who knows everything.

Now that is what I call confidence.... I think.

MEGILE
12-01-2005, 03:27 PM
Fish6891 has delusions of grandeur... I spank him at Chess daily.

jugent
12-01-2005, 04:28 PM
You can find situations where most planes are good. I dont think any plane can outturn the P-47 in speeds above 800 km/h but its seldom this situation occurs.

If the Fw climbs better than a spit at 600 km/h the rate of climb in m/min is not impressive.

The spit can climb at lower speed to a position above the Fw and get an advantage position for further dogfight.

The FW can dive away from a spit thats true but diving away wont protect the bombers or mudmovers.

In the situations that is most important the Spit is the best plane.

It would be fun to se the statistics from
Warclouds about which side that got the most fliers.
According to my unscientifical feeling, blue are outnumbering the reds, most of the time, I fly.
Danjama I would be most honoured if you accept me as your wingman.

faustnik
12-01-2005, 05:05 PM
The FW can dive away from a spit thats true but diving away wont protect the bombers or mudmovers.

In the situations that is most important the Spit is the best plane.


Excellent point! The Fw190 is at a real disadvatage if it is tied to a particular location. For freijagd, intercept and fast jabo, it's good, for point defense or escort, not so good.

The Spitfire is very good at point defense or escort, it accelerates really quickly and can survive at lower speeds. Bf109s do well there too.

ploughman
12-02-2005, 02:10 AM
This is because all but a few spit driver fly with Auto Prop Pitch... if you set it to manual in a Mark VIII or IX and drop you're pitch to about 80% in a dive you can stay glued to a 109 rudder Demonic


Weally? Well I will hath to twye that then.

Ta'.

jugent
12-03-2005, 07:33 AM
Because bombers are the major branch of the airforce, and to kill enemy bombers, and defend friendly ones from beeing killed, is FW good at only kill enemy bombers, but only one attempt per mission, climb high, dive down and flee away. If engaged in a dogfight it wont survive.


The B&Z can be useful against strategical bombing at high altitude, but for support of tactical bombing or gain air superiority over an area for a short period of time, to support and protect groundforces as low or medium alt, its shortcommings will be critical, at least if the FW in this game reflect the real one in WWII.
Then the spit will be my choise.