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View Full Version : To FF or not to FF that is the question..



Sultan_of_Swing
01-23-2005, 12:32 PM
......that you guys can help me answer. I've read lots in this forum about sticks but I dont see much (maybe I missed it) in the way of recs for FF sticks. I currently have a Saitek Evo and was thinking of getting the FF model to help me "feel" the plane better and detect stalls before they become, ummm, a mess.

I'd appreciate your thoughts, pro and con .http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Many thanks.

~S

Extreme_One
01-23-2005, 12:39 PM
I've got a Saitek Cyborg 3D Rumble and I couldn't imagine flying without FF now.

Someone offered me an X-45 cheap recently too but it has no FF. (Sad ain't I?)

Sultan_of_Swing
01-23-2005, 01:07 PM
Thanks Extreme. Do you find it helps detecting stalls etc?

JG52-6High
01-23-2005, 01:15 PM
FF makes detecting stalls easier for me, but try flying in bad weather with lots of wind, and shooting straight...there`s the con.
Immersion-wise, i would not want to miss my M$ FFB2.

I say give it a try, if u REALLY hate it, you can always turn it off.

6

Extreme_One
01-23-2005, 01:26 PM
Yeah - I think it helps - although I haven't flown without it so whether it really helps or not...?

It's definate adds to the immersion.

Love the bumpy airfields.
You can actually feel the carrier shaking before you take-off.
You can feel your guns firing. (Is that realistic BTW?)

ColoradoBBQ
01-23-2005, 01:47 PM
It should be realistic to feel your guns firing. The guns are very close to the cockpit.

tsisqua
01-23-2005, 01:53 PM
I have a Cyborg Force, and I can't imagine flying without FF. Another plus is that the profiling software allows the hat switch to emulate a mouse. No need for another program like Newview to do that.

And, yes! I definitely find that I stall out much less if I can feel the onset of a stall on the stick . . . Also, I am rarely fighting down low in the middle of a storm, but if it winds up there, the wind will shake the Hell outta your stick. I kind of like that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif (but I am a bit odd http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif)

Tsisqua

Fliegeroffizier
01-23-2005, 01:59 PM
I simply cannot imagine how Anyone can enjoy a decent Flight Sim(this is the best flightsim, of course)without FF.

On occasion, I've accidentally pulled the my stick's power plug while flying FB/PF, and the "feel" of the stick immediately goes "limp" and I Immediately lose ALL immersion and realize that it's Just a Game, after all...a slightly imporved version of Atari's Pong, almost(that's an exaggeration, but perhaps you'll get my point).

In my opinion, FF is as important to immersion in a flight sim as Track IR, actually a bit more so.

Bearcat99
01-23-2005, 02:32 PM
I use a MSFFB2... I dont particularly care for the shaking guns.... in fact I turn that off.. IMO where FFB shines is in the actual flying. Holes in the wing.... hits on the wing.. bad weather.. turbulance... a missing wheel.. you feel it all with FFB.. Forgot to drop those tanks? You will feel it right away with FFB.

Sultan_of_Swing
01-23-2005, 02:55 PM
Ok you guys sold me. Thanks! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

JG54_Arnie
01-23-2005, 04:16 PM
Bah, dont understand what the extra purpose of that walking stick is. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I had one stick where it was possible to fly with it, but after only a few minutes I got shaky all over and turned it off quickly. It doesnt add anything to the game IMO as you just feel the stick moving, nothing else moves, its useless. And I can only imagine sticks going off/useless quicker because of the FF system in it.. but thats just me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Tully__
01-23-2005, 07:09 PM
Responses are mixed. Some swear by FFB, others dislike it. From comments I've seen here those who dislike tend to be or have been pilots in real life, but not all real life pilots don't like FFB.

There are also some who've left behind FFB in order to get the more programmable sticks offered by CHProducts or a Thrustmaster Cougar and have subsequently decided that FFB wasn't as vital as they'd thought.

I'd suggest that if at all possible, you try one out before buying. You may find it's not suitable for you, or you may find it's just what the doctor ordered. It would be nice to know before handing over your hard earned shekels http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sultan_of_Swing
01-23-2005, 09:38 PM
The stickman speaketh. Thanks bud.

tagTaken2
01-24-2005, 01:13 AM
Apparently the MS FFB was the best, but is not now being produced.

Then, what is the next best?

I'm thinking about upgrading to the X45 for the sheer number of axes and switches, but if there's an equally complicated FFB stick, might be worth trying?

LuckyBoy1
01-24-2005, 01:52 AM
As someone with over 1,800 actual flight hours and over 1,400 of that in stick controlled planes I've read this thread with a bit of wonder. From the statement that because the guns were "close" to the cockpit... as if anything on a WWII fighter could be found down the next block!... you usually pushed a button that completed an electrical circuit, not a direct, mechanical pull, so you need to forget the hamming up they did in "Hellcats of The Pacific" or any other movie where it shows the stick being affected in any large measure by gun action. Then all the "I couldn't imagine"... sure you can!... how many hours in a real, stick controlled plane have you logged?... if so, any of these planes have guns you fired?... you've for the most part, done nothing but imagine!

Personally, I feel you guys are blessed. I call it farce feedback because it simly does not feel natural at all. Also, the feedback is roughly the same whethere you are playing this game with a fly by cable or a fly by hydrolics system.

Now, try to remember, I'm the guy who used to come in these forums and say that using pedals was silly and Track IR was silly as well. Of course, I own both now and would have it no other way. I have owned a Logitec Wingman Farce Feedback stick and yes, I tried the feedback system and some considerable adjusting of it as well. I simply would not trade it for my CH Fighterstick USB.

Lucius_Esox
01-24-2005, 04:21 AM
Is it easier or harder to fly with FF? Is it easier to shoot straight with it off? Have thought about it and reckon it is harder to shoot so in reality online I'm giving myself a disadvantage by using it. Also I'm not sure as never fly without FF but wont it make trimming more critical. If I'm forever having to push against forces when lining up a shot it makes me trim up. Just makes the game a whole lot more realistic and immersive for me.

sunflower1
01-24-2005, 09:18 AM
I'm a bit short of Lucky's 1800 hours, but he's right, every force-feedback stick I've ever played with was a direct annoyance compared to what a real airplane feels like. We all know that a PC doesn't have the processing power to do justice to everything and to figure that a FFB stick is going to be able accurately replicate the changing stick forces over a variety of a/c over a variety of loadings and changing flight parameters isn't realistic at all.

If you like it and it helps you, great, but an a/c has a million other ways to communicate to you and the sim's good enough for you to pick up on these things. Getting a chance to fly a real airplane costs about 50-75 bucks for half an hour to an hour. Go check it out. FFB is so overly simplistic that you'll have a hard time taking it seriously again. The way your AIRPLANE MOVES THROUGH THE AIR is all you need to focus on.

Chuck Cunningham said you knew you were turning the F4 at its optimal rate when it shook at about 60hz. In this direction lies the art of tweaking the last ounce of performance.

That's flying.

BBloke
01-24-2005, 10:05 AM
I've flown with an MSFFB 1, Saitek Cyborg Evo and the Force version and out of all 3 I think the MS stick was best in both force and gameplay.

I've had the MSFFB for well over 4 years and its been flawless.

I busted my evo in less than 6 months. Fortunately I kept the piece of toliet paper the shop calls a receipt. Took it back and had to upgrade to the force as they were out of stock on the other.

Evo force is a good stick (although turning off FFB doesn't truly help as center tension is never enough). Stall characteristics just dont seem to compare to how MSFFB interpreted.

I don't find it too hard on aiming, firing and hitting the target, although I do find myself waiting for the right shot and being alot more careful than before.

Evo force stick comes across as slightly subpar to MSFFB in its mechanics and movements on the stick itself. For me the Evo has tendancy to feel lumpy as though you have to break an invisible barrier as the linkages and motors move internally.

Another downside to the evo is the lack of "hand holding" detection. The MSFFB would stop applying forces as soon as your hand was off the stick (light senses). Making falling out the sky nothing much to worry about. The Evo is just purely determined on rattling the bolts out of your table in order to give you the "real feel" whether you are holding it or not!!

On the plus side, it does have more buttons which are a godsend. Especially the thumb array.

On the other plus side.. ..did I mention it had more buttons!!

You get my drift.

S~

Saburo_0
01-24-2005, 03:17 PM
Well i remove the silly gun effects but love the direct feel when riding the edge of a stall.
When I fly with out FFB it takes me a while to recognize that screen shake thing as buffeting.

Still if ya fly often enough I'm sure it's not a problem. All comes down to preference really.
I find the FFB is FUN, but I would imagine if online kills are your thing a hgih end non FFB stick will give you more exact control for firing etc.

i just wish they had FFB rudder pedals. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WTE_Galway
01-24-2005, 03:27 PM
my MS FFB2 is excellent, very hard to stall with a FFB stick, but unfortunately they do not make them anymore

InyerEye
01-24-2005, 03:43 PM
I had a MS FFb2,and never could get used to the FFB.It seemed too "arcadey".I always turned it off,so I sold it and went with a CH set-up.
I'd take the advice and try before you by.