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View Full Version : Do you think the Curtiss Hawk deserves to be flyable in BoB V1.0?



Feathered_IV
05-30-2007, 09:31 PM
Makes perfect sense I reckon. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

As an addition into the pre-Dunkirk scenario it would be excellent.
Plus when the SoW series moves to the Med for it's first addon, you can have it already in place for the Vichy forces.
You can then use it in follow up addons for the Finnish/Eastern front and the PTO and China.

For such a widely used aircraft, it really should be in from the get-go (plus it's damn pretty too!).

woofiedog
05-30-2007, 11:40 PM
It would be Sweet and much needed for the Med and China theaters also. But what can we say that already hasn't been said. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

A little article... Curtiss Hawk 75 in Armée de l'Air Service: http://ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2003/11/stuff_eng_profile_h75.htm

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Nevertheless, the rapidity of German rearmament made the modernization of the Armee de l'Air's equipment a matter of the utmost urgency, so the French persisted with the negotiations. As a result of the direct intervention of President Roosevelt, a leading French test pilot, Michel Detroyat was permitted to fly a Y1P-36 service test prototype at Wright Field in March of 1938. He submitted a thoroughly enthusiastic report. In addition, Curtiss suggested that more acceptable delivery schedules could be offered if the French government would finance the construction and equipping of supplementary assembly facilities.

The French still felt that the unit price was too high, and on April 28, 1938 they decided to delay their decision until the completion of the test trials of the Bloch MB-150, the quoted price of which was scarcely half that of the Curtiss fighter. However, the MB-150 was suffering an extensive series of teething troubles (the first prototype couldn't even fly!) and had been subjected to a succession of modifications for nearly two years. By mid-1938, it was felt that the Bloch fighter's main problems had been overcome. However, it was soon realized that in order to adapt the design for mass production, a complete structural redesign would have to take place.

The rework of the Bloch MB-150 would obviously be a costly and time- consuming process, and time was something the Armee de l'Air did not have. Consequently, on May 17, 1938 the Minister for Air announced that the French would acquire the Curtiss Hawk, and that a French purchasing commission was instructed to order 100 Hawk airframes and 173 Pratt & Whitney R-1830 Twin Wasp engines. The contract stipulated that the first Hawk should be flown at Buffalo by November 25, 1938 and that the 100-th plane should be delivered by April 10, 1939.
</span>

leitmotiv
05-31-2007, 03:04 AM
The French have been gearing up for the Battle of France add-on for months over on Oleg's forum:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/6961091644

Good luck to them. I would like to use the entire French order of battle along with Blenheims, Battles, and Lysanders.

JG53Frankyboy
05-31-2007, 03:42 AM
Do you think the Curtiss Hawk deserves to be flyable in BoB V1.0

<-no, because it did not fought active in the BoB - and that is the scenario SoW.BoB should focus !

if scenarios will come were the Hawk 75 actually saw combat service, than sure - but in my opinion the MTO comes not as primary here .....................
to make the Hawks flyable in the IL2 series would have been perfect:
French use on Normandie map- 1940 battles
Finnish use on the Gulf of FInnland map
US use on the Hawaii map
British use on the Burma map
even French Vichy use on one of the NA maps.....
but it didnt make it - weird but real http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Capt.LoneRanger
05-31-2007, 03:46 AM
Lysander - that was the first modell I ever built.

Well, I must confess I'd like to rather limit the number of planes in the first release and concentrate on correct modelling and a perfect engine.

Considering the success of the IL2 brand, I guess there will be plenty of updates and addons after that, but let's take one step at a time.

mynameisroland
05-31-2007, 04:12 AM
For BoB V1.0

No

Get the aircraft that fought the BoB in first, save the French stuff for the follow up patches.

leitmotiv
05-31-2007, 07:31 AM
I'll take one of these:

http://home.online.no/~oela/Blackburn%20Skua%20L%202883%2002.jpg

TgD Thunderbolt56
05-31-2007, 07:40 AM
Does it deserve to be included in BoB? no

Should it have been in IL2? yes.

Hopefully we'll see it somewhere eventually though.

JG53Frankyboy
05-31-2007, 07:48 AM
i realy think that we should be happy if the Maddox team will make a good job in modelling the
Spitfire Mk.I
Hurricane Mk.I
Blenheim Mk.IV
Bf109E-3
Bf111C-4
Ju87B-2
He111H-2
Ju88A-1
G.50
Cr.42
Br.20
Su-26

as flyables in the release version !

FlatSpinMan
05-31-2007, 07:50 AM
Can't believe there's no Do17. It's the BOB!!!

neural_dream
05-31-2007, 07:55 AM
In wwiionline if you can fly the Hawk75A4 then you can fly anything. Too bad it's not flyable in il2. A Dewo would be nice too.

JG53Frankyboy
05-31-2007, 07:56 AM
well, i personaly see no reason to make all three LW bombers flyable.
Do17 or He111 , Ju88 is with its divebomb abiltiy another category, one should be ok........ and the He111 is more "importnat" for further SoW development.
and at least the Do17 will be there as AI. and AI controlled planes will most propably also work on the nowadays so called Dogfightservers.

anyway, no official planeset is confirmed so far AFIAK - so , perhaps there will be still some surprises !

Philipscdrw
05-31-2007, 09:23 AM
Does it deserve to be flyable? No, it's an aeroplane, it has no rights, it doesn't 'deserve' anything. Let's add stuff to SoW based on what will best serve the users - i.e. us!

It would be really good to have a flyable Hawk as part of a Battle of France / MTO scenario, because then we'd be able to fly it. Not for the benefit of the aeroplane...

What's this about no Do17? It's modelled as AI, right?

JG53Frankyboy
05-31-2007, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
.........


........... Do17? It's modelled as AI, right?

WIP pictures are saying yes.

Bakelit
05-31-2007, 12:17 PM
leitmotiv:

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

That's a fugly bugger you selected.

Yes I read it was useful but my 109 would faint and fall out of the sky if such a thing ever came into sight.

faustnik
05-31-2007, 12:32 PM
Hawk 75 would be great!!!!!!!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Daiichidoku
05-31-2007, 01:11 PM
beyond what will be included intially

IMHO, the correct thing to do would be to release any new type thusly:

each new type should be chonologically, either starting from types extant to mid 1940, or starting from that point

ideally, they should strive to also make, where possible, and historically suitable, an enemy counterpart to that type, that in some way or another shared a combat zone

most importantly, DONT RUSH!
make damn well sure its done right the first time, FM spot on, DM not-insane, proper loadouts, engine ratings, et al

should they take the time to produce a truly accurate plane, and bake it just right, id be willing to wait a very, very long time for each type thus produced



oh, yea...Hawks rock!
(though truth be told, id rather have a french built type:P)

faustnik
05-31-2007, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
i realy think that we should be happy if the Maddox team will make a good job in modelling the
Spitfire Mk.I


How more work to add the MkII? Are their external structural differences?

CzechTexan
05-31-2007, 04:45 PM
Will the BoB include maps of France or just maps of Enlish Channel and the Isles?

If France map is included then the Hawk should be in it. If not, then it has good reason to leave it out.

On another thought, with the fall of France, Britain took over all of the undeliverable French Hawks and assigned the name Mohawk MK I-IV. From what I know, these didn't see combat in the Isles but were used in the CBI theater.

major_setback
05-31-2007, 05:04 PM
I'm wishing we will get.

My guess is this: Hopefully we get it in the first free add-on after BoB's release. The first payed add-on being the Med theater of war (which will have 'Malta' or 'Greece' as it's first free add-on.) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

major_setback
05-31-2007, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by CzechTexan:
Will the BoB include maps of France or just maps of Enlish Channel and the Isles?

If France map is included then the Hawk should be in it. If not, then it has good reason to leave it out.

On another thought, with the fall of France, Britain took over all of the undeliverable French Hawks and assigned the name Mohawk MK I-IV. From what I know, these didn't see combat in the Isles but were used in the CBI theater.

The development team are asking for pictures of French buildings, so thee's a good chance we will see some of France.

XyZspineZyX
05-31-2007, 05:14 PM
The line needs to be drawn...why not a P-36? It can be used in France, and we will have some French terrain. And how about a C-47? they flew over France. Spain is quite close by, how about an He 51 for Spanish Civil War scenarios? And an I-16 so the other side has a fighter? And...

See what I mean? The 'gimme gimme' has to end somewhere. they can't do it all at once. Let them make the sim, and let them develop what they need for the Battle of Britain. Adding in all sorts of other stuff can spoil things, and it's un-necessary

mortoma
05-31-2007, 05:46 PM
I think we should also get two and three bladed props for the Spits in SOW. The brits had a good variety of Spits in the battle. Did they use different props for the MK.IIs also?? And I think they did for the Hurri if I'm not mistaken.

csThor
05-31-2007, 09:41 PM
For BoB? No! IMO SoW should say goodbye to the watering can of additions Il-2 has seen and concentrate on packages - aircraft, ground objects, ships and maps depicting a certain area/theater and timeframe. To have the Hawk in BoB is useless as there wouldn't be complementing aircraft and a map useful for simulating the BoF.

Feathered_IV
06-01-2007, 03:56 AM
I think Oleg mentioned some time ago that a healthy portion of France will be featured on the main map (perhaps you were expecting air-starts for the Luftwaffe forces?). As there seems no danger that there might not be time for flyable spits and 109's, I see no reason why one shouldn't aspire to see some of the key multi-theatre aircraft incorporated from the start. We don't have to go charging at the Kurfursts and Tempests at the earliest opportunity.

csThor
06-01-2007, 04:24 AM
As there seems no danger that there might not be time for flyable spits and 109's, I see no reason why one shouldn't aspire to see some of the key multi-theatre aircraft incorporated from the start.

In Germany we have a saying: "Wehret den Anfängen!". This roughly translates into "Bad things are easiest to prevent right at the beginning." In Il-2 we had the definite problem of having aircraft without maps and maps without aircraft. The last known dimensions of the BoB map is somewhere south of Paris and somewhere in the middle of Belgium. So for a true BoF campaign it would be pretty useless as there will be no bases on german soil, half of Belgium is missing and pretty much all of Lorrainee and Alsac, too.

IMO with SoW the additions should not be put out as they appear but within consistent packages - other aircraft, ground and sea objects and a useful map (or more) without having to make compromises for campaigns. Introducing the Hawk into BoB, in which it historically played no part in, would introduce SoW again into this vicious circle of uncoordinated additions.

Dtools4fools
06-01-2007, 05:29 AM
The P-36 belongs to the BoF add-on, but not to BoB.
It sure would be an intersting plane and could be used for other theaters as well, but not in BoB.
Wait until time for its inclusion is right.

The main planes missing as flyables for BoB are in my opinion:

Wellington
Defiant
Do-17

Among those the Do-17 is the one missing most.

Hampden would cool too.
****

Tooz_69GIAP
06-01-2007, 06:06 AM
No, the first instalment of the Storm of War series is focusing on the Battle of Britain, and unless my memory is faulty, Hawks didn't fly in the BoB. The first hawks used by the RAF (called Warhawks by the British?) didn't fly until later in 1940, after the end of the Battle of Britain.

JG53Frankyboy
06-01-2007, 07:50 AM
Hawk 75 = Mohawk
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p36_10.html (http://home.att.net/%7Ejbaugher1/p36_10.html)
Hawk 81 = Tomahawk
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p40_6.html (http://home.att.net/%7Ejbaugher1/p40_6.html)
Hawk 87 = Kittyhawk
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p40.html (http://home.att.net/%7Ejbaugher1/p40.html)

Daiichidoku
06-01-2007, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by faustnik:

How more work to add the MkII? Are their external structural differences?

from "the spitfire story" alfred price ISBN 0-85368-861-3


(paraphrased to save typinghttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

"spitIIs differed from final prod mkIs in that they were fitted with more powerful merlinXII, had pressurised water-glycol cooling, and was fitted with a Coffman starter"

"the only ext difference tween the two was a small blister on starboard side of engine cowling, jsut behind spinner, to cover part of the gear train from the cartridge starter, and a slightly blunter spinner"


mkIIa was same as mkIa, 8 303s
mkIIb was same as mkIb, 2x hispanos and 4x 303s

of 921 mkII built at CB, first 751 were mkIIa standdard, the remainder IIbs

mkIIs were pahsed out of CB prod. march 41 in favor of mkVs

50 mkIIas were fitted with a fixed 40 gal. fuel tank under the port wing


spitIIa P7280
first prod mkIIa, tested boscombe down, sept 40
this ac is fitted with IFF eq and armour carried by spits during BoB, and its weight is, therefore, almsot representative of late mkIs that took part in the battle
tare wt: 4783lbs
FLW: 6,172lbs
WL when fully loaded: 25.5 psf
power: merlin XII, 1,140bhp @3,00rpm @14,750 ft @ +9 lbs boost
top speed/TTC/ROC(ft/min)
SL 290mph
2k 294 /42s / 2,925
5k 306 /1m,42s / 2,955
10k 326 /3m24s / 2,995
15k 345 /5m / 2,770
20k 351 /7m / 2,175
25k 338 /9m36s / 1,600
30k 321 /13m42s /995

service ceiling (est.) 37,600ft
TO run 230yds
distance to clear 50ft screen 400yds
landing spd 67mph
landing run (with brakes) 350yds

authors comments:
the increase in FLW of 122 lbs compared with N 3171 (a MKI example) was due to slightly greater weight of merlinXII, and carriage of IFF set and armour
cuz of additional weight and drag of IFF aerials running fron fuselage to tips of each tailplane, in spite of extra power from mkXII merlin, had a perf only marginally better than that of N 3171 (a late prod mkI), and somwhat worse than the lighly eq'd early prod mkIs

compare to a IIa with fixed port wing fuel tank...(P 8036)

FLW: 6,513lbs
LW: 26.9psf

top speed /TTC /ROC(ft/min)
5k na / 2m12s /2,240
10k na /4m30s /2,240
15k 321 / na /na
20k 320 / 9m48s /1,420
25k na /14m6s / 1,050
30k na / 20m18s /545

the report on this ac stated that it handled far better than a similarly eq'd mkI with fabric instead of metal ailerons

concluding remarks stated:
on TO the control column must be held well over tothe right to keep ac level, but as its accels, it can be moved firther to center...whilst extra weight on prt wing can be felt, it does not seriouslyt affect the flyign qualities of the ac, and this particular ac is considered pleasant to fly. the metal ailerons have brought about a marked imp i nthe lateral control since the report on the mkI with under-wing tank was issed. this ac is considered satisfactory as a fighter"


after mkIIs were replaced in FS's, 50 were fitted with merlin XXs, and operated as ASR mkIICs
they carried type E sea survival and rescue gear, coomprising one large and 2 small canister, fit into the flare tubes behind cockpit; large canister contains type L multi seater dinghy, 2 samaller ones had 75yds of bouyant rope anbd other rescue gear

all this did not hinder its fighting ability

the mkII was also tested with a gunsight to look over the nose..bascially, a mirror from the gunsight reflected off a mirror mounted at the top of the canopy, this resulteds in an improvement of visibility over the nose of less than 2% increase..obviously, this did not warrant the other problems assoc with this installation, and was dropped


hope that wasnt TMI, Faustnik http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

faustnik
06-01-2007, 09:58 AM
Thanks Dai! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Seems like a small graphical change worth doing.

Daiichidoku
06-01-2007, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by faustnik:
Thanks Dai! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Seems like a small graphical change worth doing.

y'know what? for a small blister on the nose and a blunter spinner, i certainly would not bat an eyelash at a fully performing mkII that only a keen and informed eye could tell was a mkI in ext appearance

i sincerely hope they learned where priorities lay, and what makes a game truly good, after the debacle of decisions made after AEP in this game

DuxCorvan
06-01-2007, 01:09 PM
What's the point of this thread? Deserved or not, it won't be in v1.00. Fact.

faustnik
06-01-2007, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by Daiichidoku:

i sincerely hope they learned where priorities lay, and what makes a game truly good, after the debacle of decisions made after AEP in this game

Well, I'm sure the priority is quality FMs of the main planes used in the battle. It wold be great to get versions of the particular a/c used in the battle at different times if possible. This seems like less work, as few graphical changes are needed.

slipBall
06-01-2007, 01:42 PM
The last I heard is that we will have 2 trainer aircraft with release....will you settle for that, for now http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Aaron_GT
06-02-2007, 02:21 AM
I agree - the Do. 17 really needs to be flyable.

A flyable Defiant would be good. Given that Oleg was asking about cockpit details for the Blenheim I I suspect we might get a Mk. IF, which was available in significant numbers, if not necessarily used that much.

If the game gets extended to the night bombing of later 1940 then Defiant and Blenheim nightfighters would be good, and ultimately the Beaufighter too.

Blitzkrieg and The Blitz would each make good first add ons. Poland too, for completeness, and if adding a Roc and Skua, I suppose Norway, a forgotten battle.

I am guessing that the French building details are needed as the map will include part of France at the very least so the LW forces can take off and land after missions in authentic suroundings.

luftluuver
06-02-2007, 04:13 AM
A nice site on BoB, http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/index.html
Not much on the Germans though.

On the site, visit the Roll of Honour, http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/roll.html
This lists all the RAF and FAA pilots that flew during BoB.