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PanzerAce
08-01-2008, 06:01 PM
How the heck are you supposed to fly these things? They don't go very fast, don't retain their speed in a clib like a -51 or -47, and they can't turn...

Specifically the F4F and F6F, but the corsairs as well...

VW-IceFire
08-01-2008, 06:25 PM
They dive like a bat out of hell, contrary to what you said they both turn well (F4F and F6F) at speed (not when you get slow), they are as tough as nails, and they have pretty good visibility over the nose and around the cockpit except out the back.

A F6F and a F4F can easily out turn the 109 and 190...but up against the Japanese the turn advantages disappear. One needs to be faster and preferably above your opponent to fight them.

The F4F is modeled accurately or slightly generously while the F6F is modeled somewhat slower than its real life counterpart although I believe it climbs like a faster model. Relative advantages against the Japanese are still present although somewhat mitigated.

Spend some time with them...like any plane you cannot jump into them and expect miracles.

Its also worth noting that carrier planes tend to not have the same performance as ground based aircraft. Consider that the Seafire III was one of the most prevalent Royal Navy fighters during the war and that many were still serving in late 1944...but they had the same or similar performance level as a Spitfire V of the previous year. The Hellcat looks reasonably impressive in comparison and the Corsair is a rocketship.

OH...and if you climb at all...be aware of the supercharger settings. USN pilots were trained on how to manually manage their planes and even preferred that. Supercharger stage is critical...I believe on Hellcat and Corsair you need to make the first stage change at 1500 or 2000 meters....can't quite remember but its very low. Change from second to third at 6000 meters or so.

idonno
08-01-2008, 07:12 PM
The real life F6F had a 13:1 kill ratio against Zekes, but a look at the stats of one popular Pacific themed server shows a 1.08:1 ratio, so watch what most everybody else is doing with those US Navy planes and do the opposite! =)

Zeus-cat
08-01-2008, 08:01 PM
The USN planes of the time were not as maneuverable as the Japanese planes they went against, but they were far tougher. If flown properly with a wingman they were more than a match for the average Japanese plane and pilot. For example, the Thatch Weave even frustrated aces like Subaro Sakai.

WeedEater9p
08-01-2008, 09:16 PM
Wildcat and Hellcat can out-turn Zeros at high speed. The Corsair is heavy, but fast, and it carries an impressive payload. Its like the Navy's Jug. The Navy planes also have the best forward view in the game (Best gunsight goes too the Army/Italian sights). Fight the Japs at high speed and high altitude. If one gets on you... dive.

M_Gunz
08-01-2008, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by idonno:
The real life F6F had a 13:1 kill ratio against Zekes, but a look at the stats of one popular Pacific themed server shows a 1.08:1 ratio, so watch what most everybody else is doing with those US Navy planes and do the opposite! =)

Is this because of the plane models or could there be some other difference?
Like maybe the pilots and situations not being same between the reality and onwhine?
Possibly?

VW-IceFire
08-01-2008, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by idonno:
The real life F6F had a 13:1 kill ratio against Zekes, but a look at the stats of one popular Pacific themed server shows a 1.08:1 ratio, so watch what most everybody else is doing with those US Navy planes and do the opposite! =)
During the Marianas Turkey Shoot, where much of that esteemed kill ratio was earned, the USN pilots were a well trained forced, backed by veteran combat hardened pilots from previous campaigns, guided by radar and up against a Japanese opposition that were generally poorly trained (at this stage of the war) and without much of the benefit of radar. It was called a Turkey Shoot by the USN pilots for a very good reason. The Hellcat itself was icing on the cake...it helped ensure near domination of the attacking Japanese force but much of that had to do with relative disparity in pilot quality.

Stingray333
08-01-2008, 11:40 PM
Sorry....I hate to ask, why are zeros called "zekes"... je suis noob.

Blottogg
08-02-2008, 01:28 AM
From that always accurate source, Wikpedia (actually, this explaination is pretty good, and saves me a lot of typing):

It is universally known as Zero from its Japanese Navy designation, Type 0 Carrier Fighter (Rei shiki Kanjo sentoki, 零式艦上戦闘機), taken from the last digit of the Imperial year 2600 (1940), when it entered service. In Japan it was unofficially referred to as both Rei-sen and Zero-sen, Japanese pilots most commonly called their plane Zero-sen (the English word "zero" and the French "zro" were introduced in the late 19th century by English and French engineers).

The official Allied code name was Zeke in keeping with the practice of giving boys' names to Japanese fighters, girls' names to bombers, bird names to gliders and tree names to trainers. The reason for choosing Zeke as a code name for the Mitsubishi A6M is uncertain. When in 1942 the Allied code for Japanese planes was introduced Zeke may have been thought an appropriate choice. Later two variants of the fighter, not immediately identified as such, received their own code names: the A6M2-N (floatplane version of the Zero) was called Rufe and the A6M3-32 variant was called Hamp.

chunkydora
08-02-2008, 03:09 AM
The USN planes are way better in the vertical than the Zekes. Mr Icefire got it pretty good, and in my opinion the USN planes have got the best gunsight in the game. It really helps me with deflection Shooting. Yup, just keep on flying them and eventually you will get them.

WOLFMondo
08-02-2008, 02:42 PM
Stay fast. No IJN plane can touch an F6F or F4U if you keep the speed up. The F4U is so utterly superior to any IJA aircraft in terms of speed you have to make some poor decisions and loose all your height and speed to be caught.

horseback
08-02-2008, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by Stingray333:
Sorry....I hate to ask, why are zeros called "zekes"... je suis noob. How many male names are there that begin with 'Z'?

I assume that the choice was either Zeke (short for Ezekiel) or Zebulon (Zeb?). Zeke is shorter and clearer over the radios of the day.

As for performance, you might want to play with your prop pitch as well as your supercharger settings; for a very general analogy, think of the higher pitch percentages as lower gears for US planes.

Real life US Naval Aviators were considered some of the best trained fighter pilots in the world at the time of the US entry into WWII, particularly in the realm of air to air marksmanship.

Considering how well they fared against similarly qualified (and more experienced) IJN pilots flying the superior A6M2/3 Zero at from Coral Sea onwards, the vastly superior (to the F4F) F6F-3 Hellcat gave them a big edge over the opposition once it arrived in late '43.

When you consider that the prewar trained but barely combat experienced LCDR David McCampbell got seven in a single sorty at the Turkey Shoot, you begin to appreciate what a difference maker the Hellcat was in real life.

Unfortunately, the game does not depict the ergonomics or vision advantages that the Hellcat conferred upon its pilots, and I have to question the depiction/interpretation of the handling charactoristics. Contemporary pilots rated the Hellcat one of the easiest aircraft of WWII to fly and master; among fighters, it had to be the easiest overall.

cheers

horseback

mortoma
08-02-2008, 07:23 PM
One thing to remember if you are going to dive as these guys are suggesting is to reduce prop pitch it you have it at 100% in the first place. You will gain speed in the dive far quicker if you take down to say, 70% as you begin your dive. This works for every plane in the game that has a constant speed prop and also helps you accelerate far faster flying level too. It's almost like a cheat! Try it accelerating from 300kph when leaving your pitch at 100% and then try it going from 100% to 60 or 70%. You'll be impressed. Works fabulous in the case of the P-38s especially, level or diving.............

Wildnoob
08-02-2008, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
No IJN plane can touch an F6F or F4U if you keep the speed up. The F4U is so utterly superior to any IJA aircraft in terms of speed you have to make some poor decisions and loose all your height and speed to be caught.

the N1K2 and the J2M are faster as the Hellcat and the Corsair. these planes can easly get them if they try run away.

I also don't think the Corsair is pretty much faster then a KI-84.

I already get shoot down many times by the KI-84 trying to run away from it with the Corsair and P-51.

Buzzsaw-
08-02-2008, 08:04 PM
Salute

Remember that the uber Japanese planes which are so difficult to deal with were EXTREMELY rare.

For example, there were only around 30 of either the J2M5 or Ki-84b/c ever made. How many of those actually made it into combat is subject to question. The N1K2 was also quite rare, only 428 built. Only some 300 J2M3's were made. Compare that with 11,000 Zeros, or 5900 Ki-43's. The most common 'uber' Japanese aircraft was the Ki-84-1a, of which some 3300 were built. The Ki-61 was also fairly common, with 3100 built.

Too many of the arcade servers in the game allow the use of all the uber Japanese planes in unlimited numbers.

Even the Ki-84 did not come into large scale service till 1945. And many of the Ki-84's performed considerably worse than the IL-2 version, which is modelled on an aircraft tested postwar by the USAAF with 115/145 octane fuel. Japanese fuel was 87 or 96 octane. Tests by the Japanese showed a top speed of 394 mph not the 427 achieved postwar. In addition, problems with lack of supply and poor quality control meant engines were very unreliable.

When you combine bad setups on servers with the fact the good late war US aircraft like the F4U-4a, P-47N, and the P-51 running 115/145 octane and 81 inches MAP are not included in the game, you get an unbalanced situation.

idonno
08-02-2008, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by Wildnoob:
I also don't think the Corsair is pretty much faster then a KI-84.

I already get shoot down many times by the KI-84 trying to run away from it with the Corsair and P-51.

The U.S. planes are faster than the 84 at high altitude. I haven't tested it exactly, but the speed advantage seems to kick in at around 20,000'.

The J2M5 is the Japanese answer to U.S. high alt superiority. I don't know exactly how it compares, just that it is competitive up there. I haven't run in to any J2M3's up high.

M_Gunz
08-02-2008, 09:11 PM
The big red rondels on the Japanese wings look like zeros.

I've watched an IL2 F4U video on YouTube where he did kill the whatever Japanese plane it was
but right from the start as he recovered from whatever kill he had just made and went to look
for the next he flew nose high all throughout the turn which just wrecks the speed he should
have been making.

Flying for speed and energy is not something that just comes naturally. Nose high turns and
bobbinb around trying to climb a bit or hold alt -and- gain speed is what comes natural.
Both have a great deal of induced drag that destroy the potential of the fast planes.
Perhaps it comes from being ground-bound beings and the view we have when traveling.

Practice dropping some alt at the starting half of turns and regaining it in the ending half
if you're not high cruise fast already. See what that gets you. Wallowing around wondering
why your plane doesn't match what you think it should, the wrong ain't because of the model.

ffb
08-02-2008, 09:21 PM
In my use of my Thailand/East Burma map I have been trying out some of the planes relative to that period...when the Japanese were pushing British forces out of Burma..

and the Buffalo in game is quite a match for the zero....and turns very well ...not as IRL as I recall http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

VW-IceFire
08-02-2008, 09:35 PM
Corsair is faster than both the N1K-1J and N1K-2J but against the Ki-84 and J2M3/J2M5 its advantage is lost until very high altitude. Or at least thats how IL-2 Compare see's the comparison in speeds. The key thing is that the Corsair at 100% is faster at many altitudes than the Ki-84 at 100%. Its only the short duration 110% where the differences start to show up. Its close enough that if the Ki-84 pilot is not in trim and is flying in a sloppy manner the F4U might be able to escape.

The real trick I find in a Corsair is that I have to have altitude to work with even with a slight disadvantage. Up in the thinner air the Corsair gets its advantage...down low against the Japanese its very difficult to recover in any way except running.

@ffb: Which Buffalo were you flying? The B-239, F2A, or Buffalo Mark I? BTW: None of these are as heavy as the F2A3s that the USMC had at Midway that were slaughtered.

fabianfred
08-02-2008, 09:49 PM
Buffalo B339 ...but then again see this

http://www.warbirdforum.com/ericbrow.htm

I quite like flying the F2A3's http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BigKahuna_GS
08-02-2008, 09:56 PM
S!

David McCambell F6F Hellcat Driver:

McCampbell and his wingman attacked a Japanese force of 60 aircraft. <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">McCampbell shot down nine, setting a single mission aerial combat record</span>. When he landed his Grumman F6F Hellcat, his six machine guns had two rounds remaining and the plane had only enough fuel to keep it aloft for 10 more minutes. Cdr. McCampbell received the Medal of Honor for both actions, becoming the only fast carrier task force pilot to be so honored.

For his brilliant record in command of Air Group 15, McCampbell was awarded the Medal of Honor, the Navy Cross, the Silver Star, Legion of Merit with Combat "V", the Distinguished Flying Cross with two Gold Stars in lieu of the second and third awards, and the Air Medal.


The IL2 Hellcat has been tested thoroughly and has been shown to be too slow by as much as 15mph at mid altitudes. This margin far exceeds the + or - 3% variable for IL2 aircraft modeling. The other problem is that the Hellcat is not offered in a "clean condition" and who knows how much of a drag penalty has been attributed to it.

Another interesting point is the sea level speed of the Corsair has been reduced from earlier versions for all models reguardless if they are in "clean condition" or not. A US Navy flight test indicated that weather/combat beaten Corsairs right off the flight deck with no special preperation could do 366mph V-Max at sea level. The IL2 Corsair does about 356-358mph at sea level which is 8-10mph too slow.

I have tested the Ki84 extensively and it's speed has been increased to 366mph at sea level -that's better than listed (366mph is the Corsair's orginal sea level speed in PF). Also the FTH listed for the Ki84 is around 20,000ft and it's speed was increased from 394mph from earlier versions to 428mph . The Ki84 had a single speed supercharger and it was not known for high altitude performance. Thats why they were working on a high alt version but the war ended. In IL2 Ki84 can maintain it's FTH speed of 428mph to almost 30,000ft--way better than turbosupercharged aircraft which does not make any sense. So there is definetly a high alt over-performance problem for the Ki84.


A scenario that would of been nice to see would be late model US Navy/Army fighters vs late model japanese Navy/Army fighters ; ie. F4U-4/P47N/P51D at 81"MAP vs Ki84/N1K2/Jm25.



--

BigKahuna_GS
08-02-2008, 10:06 PM
S!

Ice-Fire-"Or at least thats how IL-2 Compare see's the comparison in speeds."
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________



Hya Ice,

I have found many errors with IL-2 Compare and Oleg does not accept this data.
I think it may be good for some rough estimates.



_

VW-IceFire
08-03-2008, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by 609IAP_Kahuna:
S!

Ice-Fire-"Or at least thats how IL-2 Compare see's the comparison in speeds."
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________



Hya Ice,

I have found many errors with IL-2 Compare and Oleg does not accept this data.
I think it may be good for some rough estimates.



_
I realize that so thats why I always indicate the source. Its never going to be 100% as I understand it...but its close enough that most people should have a look at it to understand relative speed differences. The problem is that most people perceive the speed of their aircraft rather personally and if they don't fly well or are in a bad tactical position they often blame them plane. People in general need to move past that and understand things like trim, acceleration, and the relative top speed differences between them and their opponents.

I'm sure half of the reason that the Corsair and Hellcat get a bad rap for speed is that people either never fly them higher than 1000 meters or they do fly them higher and never engage the second or third stage of supercharger.

Thanks for posting the speed discrepancies as well...in-game versus historically recorded. Its worthwhile to know the playing field so that the virtual pilots can fly appropriately. A little bit of a dive for a Corsair or Hellcat does work wonders.

Wildnoob
08-03-2008, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by idonno:
The U.S. planes are faster than the 84 at high altitude. I haven't tested it exactly, but the speed advantage seems to kick in at around 20,000'.

The J2M5 is the Japanese answer to U.S. high alt superiority. I don't know exactly how it compares, just that it is competitive up there. I haven't run in to any J2M3's up high.

oh rigth, can't belive I forgot high altitude combat.

really, I already see a long figth with both human players with a KI-84 against a P-47 at high altitude.

thanks for the correction.

buzzsaw1939
08-03-2008, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
Salute

Remember that the uber Japanese planes which are so difficult to deal with were EXTREMELY rare.

For example, there were only around 30 of either the J2M5 or Ki-84b/c ever made. How many of those actually made it into combat is subject to question. The N1K2 was also quite rare, only 428 built. Only some 300 J2M3's were made. Compare that with 11,000 Zeros, or 5900 Ki-43's. The most common 'uber' Japanese aircraft was the Ki-84-1a, of which some 3300 were built. The Ki-61 was also fairly common, with 3100 built.

Too many of the arcade servers in the game allow the use of all the uber Japanese planes in unlimited numbers.

Even the Ki-84 did not come into large scale service till 1945. And many of the Ki-84's performed considerably worse than the IL-2 version, which is modelled on an aircraft tested postwar by the USAAF with 115/145 octane fuel. Japanese fuel was 87 or 96 octane. Tests by the Japanese showed a top speed of 394 mph not the 427 achieved postwar. In addition, problems with lack of supply and poor quality control meant engines were very unreliable.

When you combine bad setups on servers with the fact the good late war US aircraft like the F4U-4a, P-47N, and the P-51 running 115/145 octane and 81 inches MAP are not included in the game, you get an unbalanced situation.

So your the reason I had to add my birth date to my sig! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Wildnoob
08-03-2008, 12:12 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/69/Ki-43s_and_Ki-84s.jpg

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

how I would like to be in a playground like this.

I know war is terrible, but I are fanatic for military aviation.

on this case is an IJA airfield in Korea in the postwar.

Sillius_Sodus
08-03-2008, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by Blottogg:
From that always accurate source, Wikpedia (actually, this explaination is pretty good, and saves me a lot of typing):

It is universally known as Zero from its Japanese Navy designation, Type 0 Carrier Fighter (Rei shiki Kanjo sentoki, 零式艦上戦闘機), taken from the last digit of the Imperial year 2600 (1940), when it entered service. In Japan it was unofficially referred to as both Rei-sen and Zero-sen, Japanese pilots most commonly called their plane Zero-sen (the English word "zero" and the French "zro" were introduced in the late 19th century by English and French engineers).

The official Allied code name was Zeke in keeping with the practice of giving boys' names to Japanese fighters, girls' names to bombers, bird names to gliders and tree names to trainers. The reason for choosing Zeke as a code name for the Mitsubishi A6M is uncertain. When in 1942 the Allied code for Japanese planes was introduced Zeke may have been thought an appropriate choice. Later two variants of the fighter, not immediately identified as such, received their own code names: the A6M2-N (floatplane version of the Zero) was called Rufe and the A6M3-32 variant was called Hamp.

The name Zeke was chosen because the U.S. officer responsible for naming the Japanese aircraft was from Tennessee, he apparently chose hillbilly name because he felt they would be easy to remember. Sounds far-fetched but I have read it in a few histories of the Pacific War.