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ElfunkoI
12-29-2003, 11:40 AM
Got "German Warplanes of World War II" by Chris Chant. Thats the source. Anyway, reading through it said the K4 early were Mk108, but "later examples were revised with the 30mm MK103 cannon in place of the MK108 weapon of the same calibre in the Motorkanone installation."

Are we going to get this variant?

ElfunkoI
12-29-2003, 11:40 AM
Got "German Warplanes of World War II" by Chris Chant. Thats the source. Anyway, reading through it said the K4 early were Mk108, but "later examples were revised with the 30mm MK103 cannon in place of the MK108 weapon of the same calibre in the Motorkanone installation."

Are we going to get this variant?

JG26Red
12-29-2003, 11:44 AM
they are both 30mm? whats the diff?

S77th-brooks
12-29-2003, 11:46 AM
shots alot strigher and more bang

JG26Red
12-29-2003, 11:49 AM
ahhh used on a few planes... K6 had it... we have K4...

more velocity, straighter but heavier and less reliable...

kubanloewe
12-29-2003, 12:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG26Red:
they are both 30mm? whats the diff?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

take a FW190A8 or A9 with two MK103 under the wings and use it for Bombers and Groundtargets.

It´s velocity was much higher and it could shot AP mun LOLhttp://mitglied.lycos.de/kubanskiloewe/g14gutspruchsig.jpg

ElfunkoI
12-29-2003, 02:12 PM
The 108 is comparable to the mgff/m cannon on early 109s. Lower velocity, kinda lobs em out there.

The 103 is like the mg151/20. Better velocity, Rate of Fire. Generally a more liked cannon among virtual pilots.

Willey
12-29-2003, 02:56 PM
The K-4 didn't have 103s... I bet the same book stated it having MG 151 15mm guns in the cowling. That's basically the same gun as the 20mm one, but with a different barrel. Like the 103, it just doesn't fit there.

ElfunkoI
12-29-2003, 03:32 PM
So your saying the Mg151/20 shoots 15mm rounds?

The book says K-0 replaced 13mm guns with the mg151/15 like you said.

Book also says K-6 was heavy fighter version of K-4 with two 13mm mg131 and a 30mm MK103.

So, do we go with the K-0 specifications to discredit? Or the statement that called one a heavier version of a predecessor with the 13mm cowling guns as you state is the correct configuration?

Hehehe. It may be a book off the shelf, but it seems to be winning this fight.

Vipez-
12-29-2003, 07:11 PM
There was a modification from MK103, with slightly lighter size and weight, and slightly lower muzzle velocity. But It did exist. These were fitted with some late Ks, and even some K-4s were upgraded with this modified Mk103.. I don't know what they called this modified Motorkanone, but it was a balance between Mk108 and regular MK103.. Imho would be very ideal gun choise for the 109 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif


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hop2002
12-29-2003, 07:26 PM
The Mk103 was not fitted to production 109K4s, nor was the Mg151 (15 or 20mm) fitted into the cowling. Both claims originated with William Green a long time ago, and get repeated endlessly in new books. If it has both those claims, it probably also gives a time to climb to 5000m as 3 mins, which is just as wrong.

12-29-2003, 08:03 PM
No MK103s ever fitted in any produced Bf109s.

No MG151 15mms ever fitted in the cowl of any produced Bf109s.

ElfunkoI
12-29-2003, 08:06 PM
Not as technical a book as I would like, but it does a basic rundown of the aircraft and its history, some more lengthy than others depending on service history.

Lots of pictures though. An entertaining book (for the enthusiast).

Also, I thought 0 variants were prototypes? So the K-0 "with" mg151/15 never flew in combat right?

Abbuzze
12-30-2003, 01:39 AM
No MK103 would fit into a 109... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Same for the Mg151 with 15mm, a 0.50cal would be much to large to be installed in a BF... MK108 and MG131 were very small weapons and even the small MG need the bulges!

Beside, the only difference between MG151 and MG151/20 are the barrel of the gun... even the ammo need the same room (F2 and F4 carry the same number of ammo- with 15mm and 20mm) so any idea why they should try to build in the smaller and less effective version???

I also doubt that there was any MG151 with 15mm barrel still in Production in 1945... It was only used in 42 in the 109 F2..

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Fehler
12-30-2003, 02:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG26Red:
they are both 30mm? whats the diff?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dont have the exact data readily available, but the difference was... About 300 feet per second.

The Mk 103 was a much better weapon. It was heavier weighing in at approximately 146 Kg. The 108 weighed about 64 Kg. It was reliable, but the Mk 103M was a little less reliable. The basic difference between the 103 and the 103M was that the gas blow back tube didnt fit in the area between the cylinder heads of the V-12 engines.

The ammunition cam ein two flavors, Hartkern (AP) with a tungston core, and Minengeschoss (HE) with a very thin shell packed with HE/I. It was a true bomber killer, and had the muzzle velocity to be used at a pretty great distance.

It was used in a few FW-190's (Under the wings, the Do-335 (Both in the wings and an engine firing 103M - I believe) and the Ta-152 C-3. I do believe that it was used in 109 K-6's and some retrofitted K-4's as well.

If you think the 108 30mm is a good round (Which it is, although not very accurate as correctly depicted in this sim) then wait until you see the 103 30mm in a Ta 152! It should shoot like a laser and be much more effecient.

Yeah, I'd like to see the 103 retrofitted K-4's as well... But I doubt we get it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

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butch2k
12-30-2003, 05:47 AM
The 15mm MG151 had still so use at the end of the war, since its balllistics was very close to the MK103. Indeed it was used for instance as a cowling MG on the Do 335 and was planned for the Ta 152. But the cowling of the 109 was too small to accomodate such a large weapon.
Same goes for the MK103, with it's long and very large barrel it could not fit within the blast tube of a Jumo or DB engine. A derived version namely the MK103M was being developed by war's end so as to fit within those engine blat tube. But when war ended the weapon was still at prototype stage.

ElfunkoI
12-30-2003, 11:17 AM
This sim is all for prototypes, if thats what you want to call it. It was put on 109's (K-6's and field modded? to some K-4's) so why wouldn't we be able to get it? It's definately do-able, and god knows the number of aircraft that had it were at least that of MiG3U's (do we call this a prototype aircraft?). Oleg can do it, we just need to coax him into it (unless he's already planning it, cross your fingers).

butch2k
12-30-2003, 12:37 PM
ElfunkoI, it was never fitted on prototypes, btw K-6 was armed with two MK108s in the wings. Wings were produced but the aircraft was not produced.

ElfunkoI
12-30-2003, 01:31 PM
So there were no fighters in action with the mk103 firing through prop hub?

My dreams just got shot down quicker than a yak...

F19_Ob
01-01-2004, 06:17 PM
Mk 108 was a short barreled gun and the mk 103 was long barreled and had a slightly harder punch and longer range.


Remember reading that there was problems with the istallment of the mk103 on fighters and that mk 108 was lighter...I guess this can partly explain why it wasnt prefered before the mk108.

JG26Red
01-02-2004, 09:50 AM
so those dual 30mm on the A8 i had th other day should be really mean on bombers ?

VW-IceFire
01-02-2004, 12:15 PM
All of the wing mounted 30mm's on a FW190 are essentially meant for use against bombers. Infact you'll see that many Luftwaffe fighters trade someone else for either firepower or climb rate (the FW190 developed firepower, speed, armor plating while the Bf 109 continued to develop climb rate and basic firepower options). Definately the B17 raids influenced fighter development in Germany during WWII.

- IceFire
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mllaneza
01-03-2004, 01:55 PM
Really, really mean Red. They f'em up good. And they vaporize fighters. Try the Hungarian 109 single mission and take the 30mm pods. The P-51s are extremely vulnerable to those horrendous cannons.

Veteran - Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force. 1993-1951.